Forum Topic

Nigel Lewis · 6/13/2014 3:13:00 PM

new.BrentfordTW8.com Communtity Forum Topic posting

Construction workers drinking alcohol

I have just written to the head of works for Brentford Lock West construction works about the amount of construction staff using the shade of Brentford Lock to consume alcohol during their lunch break and returning to the site to work. Some are even drinking special brew in their lunch hour!!If you see the same I urge you to contact the site management, and Hounslow H&S Executive to report this very dangerous practice that could lead to a loss of life in the event of an accident.There are obviously no alcohol testing protocols in place to ensure each worker is safe to enter the site. This needs addressing.

Nigel Lewis ● 4252d41 Comments

Its never a good idea to drink during working hours - reserve it for leisure hours IMO.

Gerry Tan ● 4243d

I have tried to read the whole thread right through. Up until I retired the BAA operated a strict Non alcohol policy, you couldn’t even visit a Pub or club on the way home from work wearing your works uniform.I fell foul on visiting a pub on the way home, as a relation ran a pub near to the airport and I took some shopping into them.The next morning I was summoned to the powers that be to be disciplined as I was seen entering a license premises wearing my uniform.I got away with a telling off, but depending on the seriousness of the offense, you could end up be sacked over this policy.

Paul Allen ● 4243d

"Hint … these cars weren’t pink before the workers started grinding the roof tiles, on the roof…" ... next door.

Sarah Felstead ● 4244d

The workers here may have been a bit tipsy not to wear masks to stop them breathing in the tile dust from grinding a first floor roof, or they may have been too tipsy to notice that the street was getting a coating too, or maybe they didn’t care or didn’t have the training to use a grinder safely. Hint … these cars weren’t pink before the workers started grinding the roof tiles, on the roof…

Sarah Felstead ● 4244d

These guys cannot afford to have a relaxing alcoholic drink as they are perched above what might be home made scaffolding.It may look smart at the front of the house, but out here at the back there are pieces missing. If the workers did have a certificate of 'how to work on a roof', I wonder what would happen if they said to the builder (who has probably gone off somewhere else) that they needed more scaffolding to make the job safe?Surely the builder should have spotted this anyway before letting the scaffolder go?Very common for workers to use a grinder without masks, and there is not one in sight on this rooftop. One is holding the tile for the other to grind, what if a wobbly footing makes the guy with the grinder move? Often the person with the grinder has an electrical cable around their shoulders, and .. neck.

Sarah Felstead ● 4244d

These guys were dropped off by the builder just after 7.00am. If they do have certificate to prove self employment or training to a basic level of working standards there is no interest in checking them. Footware? … smart, soft casual, and trainers. No gloves.These two might be glad of a stiff drink should they get a splinter in their hands squash their foot under a paving slab or stand on a random electrical wire as they dig out under the street to adjust the water main link to the house.

Sarah Felstead ● 4244d

This is where a stiff drink might be very supportive.Taken 14th May. It doesn’t look too bad, but those dark potato like things (some sort of vegetable anyway) absolutely stunk. It looked like they had split out of a bag which had been stuffed into the plastics container and the odour from the skip was very strong. Why do people do this? Would somebody please take note of what Jim has written as this is a community area and we should support the shop.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

The grinder here is shooting sparks up over the head of the guy holding the sheet. This is the grinder being used by the roadside, before lunch.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

If this is anything like climbing over a stile then I must admit I often do not know where to place my feet.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

A simple job can be complicated by so many things – lucky alcohol is not a part of the equation.Check out the open and flopping around jumpers and guess at the wind blowing at that height.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

Young lads dropped off to site and told to do this that or the other – builder disappears – if they fall off the roof we are happy that they are considered self employed. With a few drinks they could be playing the hokey cokey.Throw it downPhew, caught it! Grind it a bitThrow it backPhewStart again

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

Oh yes, I remember what was going on next door on the roof.There was scaffolding but it didn’t catch the claw hammer.Often difficult to find a quiet corner to grind those ridge tiles.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

Definite butter fingers here – wonder what was going on up above next door on their roof works? ... this came through the lean to roof of the house next door.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

Wonder how drink might have affected these guys performance - no hard hats or gloves but if they lose thier footing there is no scaffolding either.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

Silly isn't it. Drinking fuelled some twat setting off the fire alarm once.I have seen some serious displays of hostility in customer service and drink would have created an even more dangerous situation as your need all your wits to carefully respond.

Sarah Felstead ● 4247d

Wasn't the King's Cross Underground Station disaster aggravated by staff spending long lunch breaks in the platform Mess Room.. swilling alcohol and ignoring fire hazards and safety responsibilities?

Jim Lawes ● 4247d

I believe its a can of worms you should open Nigel. Have them all sacked. The senior members should be named and shamed too. WE pay the salaries of government employees and they should not employ drunks.

Steve Taylor ● 4247d

Sarah, It even comes down to something basic as a fire alarm sounding. If there is a fire and the alarm sounds in an office environment, it is hard to predict the response of a drunk person.I work in a high profile post administered by the government - they won't deal with drunks because if they do they will have to deal with all of them and that would not only a huge can of worms but involve senior members!!

Nigel Lewis ● 4247d

... and have probably moved on to other organisations! Crumbs! No, they are probably all dead by now.

Sarah Felstead ● 4248d

Cor....it sounds like a fun job you had Sarah..and you are well out of it. Lets hope these cretins have all been ousted, No doubt with huge redundancy payouts!

Steve Taylor ● 4248d

How would you assess somebody’s ability to work on a building site and how much alcohol they can get away with before it affects them, and how it affects them? I think it applies to all work places and comes with taking the salary.I agree with you about this acceptance of turning a blind eye to so many things. The time to grab people is when they start a job as they want to do well and want to know what to do and if treating alcohol is funny then it will carry on. Our operations people used to look for places to tuck these sort of people and let them get on with it.I remember saying to one manager I had to speak to through the 'fumes' that I was glad he didn’t smoke or we would have gone up with a bang, he hadn't any idea that he and his room stunk after the lunchtime trip to the pub with a select few followers.Another Manager used to return late from the pub and spend quite a lot of the afternoon screaming at people down the phone threatening the person on the other end with disciplinary action in full earshot of his office and customers.Another one told me as a part of an interview preparation discussion that when he was running these panels he forgot the names of the people he was assessing ‘to’ faces after a while, so used to write on the notes – ‘cor, big tits’ – at which point he took the opportunity to talk to my chest, but he may not have been drinking, it was probably just him. He was better in the mornings.I quickly learnt not to leave anything important to a Friday.

Sarah Felstead ● 4248d

"Even in a desk centred environment with little physical movement there is the influence on other people, the inability to do their job, deal with customers, and as the day wore on, the decision making process having to be shared amongst others as the person slid off into a stupor."Sarah - I think thats a different argument. If a worker nods off, disrupts others or can't do their job (drunk or not), they should be subject to diciplinary procedures and dismissed if appropriate. I do find it abhorrent though that the Civil Service turned a blind eye to these 'pet' alcoholics at taxpayers expense. Its almost as bad as the BBC chiefs turning a blind eye to the 'goings on' of Jimmy Saville

Steve Taylor ● 4248d

Personally I cannot understand why there is not a ‘zero alcohol’ during working hours for many reasons. I have worked along side ‘pet’ alcoholics when in the civil service, everyone knows they are consuming alcohol and I have seen somebody sitting at their desk drinking. Even in a desk centred environment with little physical movement there is the influence on other people, the inability to do their job, deal with customers, and as the day wore on, the decision making process having to be shared amongst others as the person slid off into a stupor. Oh yes of course it was funny, which is why I said ‘pet’. This sort of passive encouragement of their drinking could I suppose be argued a contributing factor in their growing deterioration.On a building site I suppose it would be very difficult to say somebody is doing an 'alcohol safe' job, especially as they could be moved onto a driving job or working at heights let alone all the other safety factors involved in moving around the site keeping their own safety and the safety of others in their mind. I assume judgement is important.I have some photographs … :-) 

Sarah Felstead ● 4248d

Did any Dornier aircraft ever crash due to poor workmanship?

Steve Taylor ● 4248d

Back in the 90's I recall visiting the now closed aircraft manufacturing plant that the Dornier company had just outside Munich. I'll clarify that - a factory making passenger aircraft. It being Bavaria, they provisioned for local tastes. So next to the water dispenser, the snack dispenser and the coffee machine ... was the beer dispenser. A self-service machine full of tins of beer. All sited right next to the main assembly area.For when the workers needed that quick tinnie, such as half way through fitting the wings or some equally unimportant activity.

Alan Clark ● 4248d

Nigel,Err, I don't think any contributor has said or implied that they would happy for any employee in any capacity to "stagger back to work after a heavy drinking session".Far from it, as I wrote yesterday it all depends on the circumstances, including the amount consumed etc., and the detail you've now provided was absent from your initial post, hence my reaction - from your initial post it merely seemed that you had happened to be walking past on one occasion and noticed workers having a drink and your reaction to that appeared OTT.What you're now saying paints an altogether different picture, and had that been clear from your initial post I wouldn't have been so unreasonably critical.Adam

Adam Beamish ● 4248d

I find it incredulous that some people are happy for their electrical wiring or plumbing to be carried out by a person who staggers back to work after a heavy drinking session.I am not talking about a can - they carry 4 cans each from the local off licence and fill the bin by the dock. Now the staff at the dock have spoken to them, previously the cans were just left on the bank or thrown in to the river Brent. Some of you condone this practice? 4 cans of special brew would knock most people sideways. In fact I had addressed the problem with the site manager and it stopped for a short while, then began again. The response that I should wait to see something dangerous happening before acting is astonishing.What on earth next? Police officers having a can on the street corner? paramedics? tree surgeons? I can not see any way to justify the consumption of alcohol at work where a significant risk of danger is apparent - try including alcohol in a risk assessment - do you think it would get HSE approval ?

Nigel Lewis ● 4248d

Definitely I think there are some jobs/situations where a no alcohol/no drug policy is the right and proper one.

Adam Beamish ● 4248d

I took some students with learning difficulties on a five day break once, accompanied by a nurse. She would not and indeed was not 'allowed' to have a drink during breaks while on duty which in such a situation was pretty much 24/7. Do you think her employers were being totally unreasonable or are there some jobs/situations where a no alcohol/no drug policy is the right one?

Anne England ● 4249d

I totally agree Adam. In fact I get quite irritated with our nanny state mentality and all that goes with it. Its little wonder that with our tiresome HR procedures, tribunals and the like, that we are such an expensive country and have outpriced ourselves in our export market.

Steve Taylor ● 4249d

Yes, but that only appears to confirm that there's nothing 'illegal' about a construction worker (one who doesn't drive a fork lift truck, crane etc.) drinking alcohol whilst working on site.And to be honest even if there was, what I personally struggle with is why anyone would immediately feel the need to complain, and post on a forum like this encouraging others to do so, if they just happened to pass a building site and saw some workers drinking. If I walked past a site and some guys were barely able to stand up/were incoherent and were clearly in not fit state to work and were a danger to themselves/the public, I'd have a word there and then with the site foreman, expressing my concerns, and depending on his/her reaction I might take it further. I'd do the same if I rang up a Council department now and the Officer I spoke to was clearly unable to function, and I'd trust the powers that be to take the appropriate action.Conversely, if I just walked past a construction site and I noticed the workers had some drinks, but weren't displaying any signs of being affected, or if I walked past a pub and noticed half the Planning Department having a lunchtime drink but not behaving inappropriately, I wouldn't think of making a formal complaint or broadcasting my complaint on a public forum.As I say it's just not a culture I understand, sometimes a complaint is necessary, other times it's better to adopt a degree of live and let live and let the powers that be take a common sense attitude.Indeed in my time in local government (and the private sector before I got abit more dull and boring) I was a key instigator in getting people out for a pub lunch on Fridays, as long as there was always enough cover in the office, no-one was out for too long and no-one returned to work unable to do their job - I was recently out socially with some old colleagues from a South London Council and didn't think it was right that they'd all left the Planning Department en masse at 3pm on a Friday to go to the pub.Perhaps I've been too exposed to a complaint lead culture in my professional life, indeed one TV programme that winds me up at the moment is 'The Complainers' on C4, where seemingly the complainers are the ones who are completely unreasonable/in the wrong, or even if their complaint is genuine they seem to think they have some kind of right to insult the people they are reporting their complaint to, and are bemused when after branding that person a "crook" or such like the call gets terminated. Obviously it makes for good TV so they chose the most animated complainers, but based on my own experience of 10 years of dealing with the public in a complaint led role such individuals are very common.

Adam Beamish ● 4249d

From TUC"The lawThere is no specific health and safety law dealing with drugs and alcohol at work. However, there are a number of laws that apply. It is a criminal offence under the Misuse of Drugs Act for any person knowingly to permit the production, supply or use of controlled substances on their premises except in specified circumstances (such as when they have been prescribed by a doctor). The Medicines Act 1968 also controls the sale of drugs that are considered medicine.Under the Road Traffic Act and the Transport and Works Act, drivers of road vehicles must not be under the influence of drugs or alcohol while driving, attempting to drive or when they are in charge of a vehicle. Certain rail, tram and other guided-transport system workers must not be unfit through drugs or alcohol while working on the system. The operator of such a system must exercise all due diligence to avoid those workers being unfit.Under the Health and Safety at Work Act, the employer has a duty to ensure the health, safety and welfare of employees and develop a health and safety policy. Section 7 of the Act requires employees to take reasonable care of the health and safety of themselves and others who may be affected by their acts or omissions at work. While the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations say employers should conduct risk assessments. This would include the use or presence of drugs and alcohol at work, if there appears to be a risk to workers. The main causes must then be treated in the same way as any other workplace hazard by the implementation of preventive measures."

Steve Taylor ● 4249d

Does that go for nursing and ambulance staff, doctors and school mini-bus drivers?

Anne England ● 4249d

At the various Councils I worked I don't believe there was ever an actual rule about not being able to drink at lunchtimes, and indeed nor at any of the private sector companies I've worked for either, but I know some organisations do. To me it should be left to good judgement/common sense, obviously if someone returns unfit to work then they're at risk of being disciplined.I suppose it's more about perception, which I can understand, and as I've said before if I still worked in the public sector I wouldn't let my staff use social media (during work time) or community forums like this at all in order to protect them from possible complaints from 'difficult' people.Certainly I'd have to witness something dangerous or very much out of order to complain about someone in any position having a drink at lunchtime.

Adam Beamish ● 4252d

I have to say my old employer council Islington had a rule against lunchtime drinking even though we were only 'pen-pushers', or at least not working heavy machinery.

Ian Speed ● 4252d

Nigel, what I'm saying is I don't agree with any suggestion that construction workers shouldn't be able to have a drink at all. There are of course rules and legislation, and rightly so, but did you actually witness any worker behaving in a drunk or dangerous manner?. If not, I find it quite 'sad' that anyone would feel compelled to make a complaint, it is a mindset I simply don't understand, in the same way when I spent 10 years in local government it never ceased to amaze me how some people could get so worked up about things many people wouldn't have batted an eyelid but each to their own I suppose.

Adam Beamish ● 4252d

... you missed off working at heights, Nigel. :-(

Sarah Felstead ● 4252d

Adam, How right you are, it is indeed perfectly acceptable for construction workers to drink very strong beer and return to work on electrical connections, perhaps even gas, working at over 50ft, or driving a piece of machinery such as a crane or road truck. Yep, that is perfectly safe, acceptable and fully legal.Sorry I was wrong.

Nigel Lewis ● 4252d

Steve Taylor ● 4252d

Nigel, are you for real ? Given it's not illegal to have an amount of alcohol and drive, isn't it absurd to imply construction workers can't have a drink at any time ?.Furthermore, many employees covering the entire spectrum of jobs go out for Friday lunchtime drinks and then return to work, and their performance is affected. I bet even you've done that, and whilst you might not work in construction, you highly likely to work in a role where an error of judgement could have grave implications for your employer.I'm surprised you dare set foot outside your front door for fear of the "big bad world".

Adam Beamish ● 4252d

Take a look on some of the authority sponsoered sites as well.Why did LBEs envirionmental officers ignore the amount of asbestos in the concrete that was crushed onsite at the former alfa-Laval and Brentford Nylons site?Far worse as several thousand residents have been contaminated by this dust from February 2013 to June 2013.Samples taken by some residents are now proving that both LBH and the Health and safety executive were slack in responding.No doubt a court case will loom once a few illnesses manifest.Makes a beer at lunchtime look rather insignificant.

Raymond Havelock ● 4252d