Forum Topic

Whatever happened to National Pride?

Read in today's local that the Labour Group have voted not to fly the Cross of St. George on April 23rd because it would be seen as "divisive". Have they finally taken leave of their senses? I find that deeply offensive never mind divisive, yet another all too frequent example of political correctness gone mad?

Vanessa Smith ● 7396d77 Comments

if u can find the proper flag it would b better st george all the time

Steve Fulham ● 7011d

Its Flown On TW8 Sarah..................................                           

Hugh Telford ● 7011d

Dare I ask if this was sorted out - and the Flag will be flown every year...?  Or is it up for argument again this year?

Sarah Felstead ● 7011d

"Smoke filled rooms" tut tut Paul - they are all far too PC to be smokers, and if there were  any smoke filled rooms then you'd have to ask what on earth they were smoking given the events of this last week!

Vanessa Smith ● 7389d

PhilBoth a's I'd say.

Gareth Evans ● 7389d

Vanessa"No - but I get the distinct impression that we WILL see a flag flying over the Civic Centre on April 23rd".I sincerely hope so too.

Gareth Evans ● 7389d

LOL.

Phil Andrews ● 7389d

Can we not have both options A and B Phil?How about an option C?C)The Labour Group on Hounslow Council like what they say and say what they like. Smoke filled rooms deciding how they can hold on to power while still fulfilling the dream of annoying every resident of the Borough?

Paul Fisher ● 7389d

From close observation - and Cllr. Hughes's rantings it HAS to be (a)

Vanessa Smith ● 7389d

As I have made clear already this is not an issue which I feel as passionately about as some.  Possibly the somewhat over-exuberant flag-waving of my earlier years has left me psychologically damaged in this respect (he said in jest), who knows?However it is clear from the reaction of the general public that most local people, from all backgrounds, consider the rejection by the Hounslow Labour Group of Cllr. Vaught's motion to have been totally unreasonable.Also, notwithstanding Val's comments, it is clear from David Hughes' remarks on the W4 forum that fear of encouraging the far-right by displaying the flag outside the Civic Centre was at least a consideration for some in taking the decision to reject the motion.Now, here's a multiple choice question for our esteemed council leadership:Had there been an active BNP unit locally, would it have beena) More likely, orb) Less likelyto have gained from the publicity and general furore which have resulted from the Labour Group's decision than it would have been from the flag simply being flown in the first place without all this fuss?Now here's another multiple choice question, this time for other readers of the forum.  Considering the likely answer to the above question, did members of the Labour Group nevertheless reject the motiona) Because they are congenitally stupid, orb) Because the truth is that despite their protestations they do not really give a monkey's whether the BNP gains a foothold in Hounslow or not, indeed some limited activity by organised racist groups provides them with a valuable opportunity to sell themselves to potential voters as the defenders of the threatened minority communities?Tempting though it is to go for (a), my own personal experience over nearly three decades compels me to opt for (b).What do others think?

Phil Andrews ● 7389d

No - but I get the distinct impression that we WILL see a flag flying over the Civic Centre on April 23rd.

Vanessa Smith ● 7389d

That had occurred to me,Gareth.

Keith Iddon ● 7389d

Jim, Surely now we're in the minority, the Labour party should be indulging us and making allowances for our cultural differences from the 'norm'....do I see a pig flying?

Keith Iddon ● 7389d

Jim and KeithWell said, I agree with you both. You know what to do though, if these Labour councillors are felt to be out of touch and taking away freedoms which were hard fought for, vote against the very same councillors at the earliest possible opportunity if they hold seats in your ward.

Gareth Evans ● 7390d

Keith:So, the population of Hounslow Borough is supposed to be 212,341 according to the London Directory of Boroughs.Of these 43,732 are under 16...say 50,000 under electoral age.Thus there are 160,000 adults locally governed..of which about 70,000 could be candidates for celebrating St George's Day (according to the Directories Race mix section)  Heck we English are now in a minority!!But we must be understanding...whatever the imbalance!! The new Borough Police Commander was reported to have said to the local press that this population trend will soon spread across London. Hounslow are taking a lead...and will currently be setting a good example for  other Boroughs to follow.Of the 37 Labour Councillors..it appears that 17 non-Asian Councillors..have agreed NO FLAGS with 18 Asian Councillors. The breakdown is well balanced but what an affront to us pre-war anoraks. At Strand on the Green School we  were taught to be proud of St David, St George, St Andrew, and St Patrick....and off we went to Sunday School to learn the story of Jesus and the scriptures.At the Borough Council, the ruling Party sit quietly and almost smug...as any proposition can be argued like mad and excellently by the opposition...but to no avail. The Labour Party majority offers no opportunity for debate.....or reconsideration. St George's?    Hounslow residents...You've been robbed!!

Jim Lawes ● 7390d

Mark, I think the point should be that we should be wresting the symbol of the flag,either the St. George flag or the Union flag from the grimy clutches of the NF/BNP. Let them use the swastika or invent their own standard.My father and several of his brothers,and I'm sure this applies to the relatives of some of those reading this fought bravely for our rights of freedom of expression.The women and children at home also went through horrors of deprevation and anguish,not knowing where the next meal was coming from or whether they would be bombed out of their homes or when their loved ones might be killed or maimed.      My father,rest his soul, would be horrified and angry that the flag of England or Britain would be purloined by fascist thugs for the purpose of gaining credibility.      But to not fly the flag is wrong in the extreme,as it alienates the very people that are the main fabric of English society and the message sent by these idiots at the civic is'we are not going to allow you to be proud of your nation on it's day of celebration,because we think that it would be difficult for us to justify this to ethnic minority members of the electorate,so they might not vote for us if we did this'. Never mind that if millions had not stuck up for this flag and what it stands for, that this would ,in no way ,have become a multi-cultural society and they would not have been here to 'object'.     I'd wager that the majority in the ethnic communities would have no objection whatsoever to a St.George's day celebration.It's like those idiots who want to remove all reference to Jesus at Christmas time on the grounds that it may offend muslims.How can you celebrate someone's birthday without honouring them?Why don't they think it would offend christians if Jesus were not referred to?    All this smacks of the small mindedness of the petty lot at the civic who are so much in their own 'bubble'that they can't see that we have gone past their level of understanding on this sort of issue. They are years behind,in my opinion,stuck in a discredited mode of though. They are trying,bless them, to be so 'right on' that they are 'right off' the mark.

Keith Iddon ● 7390d

WELL DONE MARK & WELL SAID!!IT'S ABOUT TIME THESE ''LEFTIES'' TOOK A STRONG HOLD ON THEMSELVES & HAD A LOOK AROUND AT WHAT IS EXACTLY GOING ON OUTSIDE THEIR LITTLE REST ROOM.DRIVING DOWN TO READING DURING THE WEEK ON THE M4 IT WAS ALL FOR 'THE OLYMPIC 2012'' BID WHICH, GIVE L.B.H. THEIR DUE, WAS VERY WELL PRESENTED WITH EVERY 4TH LAMPOST ON THE M4 SUPPORTING THE BID..WELL THIS IS LONDON 4 THE BID & CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG BUT THE 'ENSIGN' FOR THE ''CITY OF LONDON'' IS VERY HISTORIC WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVING DIED OVER THAT FLAG.THIS IS THE CROSS OF ST GEORGE & I AM SURE THAT NO UNDERTANDING SEIKH (WHO SERVED IN THE BRITISH ARMY) OR WHOEVER WOULD DENY THAT.SO IT WOULD APPEAR AGAIN THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE CELEBRATING ST GEORGE'S DAY IS A SMALL MINORITY OF US BECAUSE WE ARE TOO SCARED OF ''UPSETTING'' OUR 'FRIENDS' IN THE COMMUNITY!I MYSELF,WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATE LBH WITH GETTING THEIR A44SE IN GEAR ONCE AGAIN

Kevin Farnan ● 7390d

When are we planning to storm the ramparts of Lampton Palace then?

Vanessa Smith ● 7390d

Mark:Well expressed!

Jim Lawes ● 7390d

Phil: Your memory serves you well.The previous debate was at the time that I arrived on the scene 12 months ago when Vanessa queried why Ken Livingstone should be spending some £50,000 and more to stage the St Patrick's Day celebration in Trafalgar Square.St Georges day greeting cards did appear in the shops too. If any weren't sold...no doubt they will re-appear again this year!!

Jim Lawes ● 7390d

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM THIS COUNTRY WHEN THE MAYOR OF LONDON IS QUITE HAPPY TO SHUT LONDON DOWN FOR A ST PATRICKS DAY PARADE BUT REFUSES ANY KIND OF CELEBRATION FOR ST GEORGES DAY !!! ITS AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE. YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PEOPLE LEAVING THIS COUNTRY IN THEIR DROVES TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING. IT WILL BE A CASE OF THE LAST ONE TO LEAVE TURN OUT THE LIGHT. IT PAINS ME TO SAY IT BUT AS AN ENGLISHMAN I FEEL BETRAYED BY THE YOGHURT KNITTERS AND LOONEY LEFT THAT HAVE SOLD A ONCE GREAT COUNTRY DOWN THE RIVER. IT IS AN OFFENCE IN THE U.S.A TO BURN THE NATIONAL FLAG IN PUBLIC. OVER HERE THOUGH IT SEEMS TO BE OK..FREE SPEECH AND ALL THAT..WHAT A LOAD OF B....CKS !!! NOT TO FLY OUR COUNTRYS FLAG ON ST GEORGES DAY BECAUSE IT WOULD BE "DIVISIVE". AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THE FLAG SOULD BE FLOWN 365 DAYS A YEAR ON ALL PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND WHO EVER THOUGHT OF NOT FLYING IT ON ST GEORGES DAY SHOULD BE LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER FOR TREASON !!!

Mark Welland ● 7390d

Fact - the Labour Group rejected the following motion on 31st January - "That this Group believes that the LB Hounslow should celebrate St George's Day. That this day should be marked by, for example, raising the Cross of St George at the Civic Centre, an article in HM, and encouraging local schools and youth organisations to participate in celebrations"In the Informer Peta Vaught stated "I don't believe flying the flag will incite racial tension." The article continues....."fellow councillors voted to block the move fearing it would be seized upon by the BNP and used to promote racism."These are the facts upon which my observations on the matter are based. Incidentally, David, why have you been unable to answer the simple question raised on ChiswickW4.com about whether or not you are in favour of flying the St George's flag at the Civic Centre on St George's Day? I have no problem in agreeing with that proposal, and Peta's motion would have attracted one more vote if I was still in the Labour Group.

John Connelly ● 7390d

Val is correct, I am expressing my own views and not of the group. I was pointing out that Cllr Connolly had his facts wrong in the first place, which seems to be a very normal thing for him to do these days.

David Hughes ● 7390d

I'm not sure about the local press, but I seem to recall a similar debate on this forum which my have been initiated by Vanessa.  I don't think it related to the question of flying a flag over the Civic Centre, I believe it was the more general issue of celebrating St. George's Day itself.Can't believe it was nearly a year ago, I must be getting very old!

Phil Andrews ● 7390d

Phil - in answer to your question as to whether I could throw any light on Cllr. Hughes' comments - I have to say I couldn't even begin to try !I stand by what I said previously, that the original resolution appeared to be putting us in the position of pressurising schools, flying the flag at the Civic Centre was not the issue.Someone else queried my statement that there had never been previous press/public interest in St. George's day, and said this issue is regularly raised by the press. Yes, I agree that it does in the national press, but I can't remember any local requests for St. George's day to be observed.I'm sure someone will let me know if I'm wrong on that one!

Valerie Lamey ● 7390d

http://stephen.photonation.co.uk/p2786709.htmlVisiting a friend's house in Slough..Cllr David Hughes couldn't resist the sight of the St George's flag.  His friend's super duper camera phone recorded the event!http://stephen.photonation.co.uk/p2786709.html

Jim Lawes ● 7390d

Phil Thanks for the update. With wheeling, dealing and taking decisions which impact on the lives of hundreds of thousands of people behind closed doors and away from the light of day taking place, it doesn't bode well for Tony Blair's Open Government initiative does it?

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

ValThanks for helping to through some light on this matter.  It is indeed clear, even from John's understanding of what was said as reproduced elsewhere, that the question of schools did arise.However, John has also suggested that there was a refusal to fly the flag on the grounds that to do so might stir up or encourage far-right groups.  You say this issue has been misrepresented.  What then should we make of the following response from your Councillor Hughes on the W4 forum when asked to explain the decision?:"It would be fine if we did not have The NF BNP and other subverting the saints day into one of racism."Councillor Hughes' comments here would seem to bear out the claimed version of events.Please note that I don't have particularly strong views one way or the other about whether or not the flag should be flown from the Civic Centre, but I am concerned that there appears to be some disagreement as to the reasons behind this rather controversial decision.Could you throw any light on this?

Phil Andrews ● 7391d

GarethThis matter may well end up being debated by the Full Council if somebody introduces it as a motion, however following recent local government legislation decisions are made by the Executive, which in Hounslow comprises ten councillors who are all from the ruling group.In practice the Executive takes its directions from the Labour Group, which by definition meets in private.This is why meetings of the Full Council are for the most part a complete waste of time.  Only a change in overall political control of the council could prevent New Labour from doing what it does best, i.e. wheeling, dealing and taking decisions which impact on the lives of hundreds of thousands of people behind closed doors and away from the light of day.

Phil Andrews ● 7391d

Val So are you honestly expecting us to believe that if schools do decide to make their own decisions, that councillors will not put pressure on the Education Department or on schools not to fly the flag? If as you state, “councillors present supported the idea of flying the flag of St. George at the Civic Centre, allegations of a 'snub' are simply not true”, then can you explain why the issue has hit the media and apparently been misrepresented? Something isn’t ringing true here as I have read elsewhere that the decision not to fly the flag on St George’s Day was taken in a private meeting of the Labour group. Who simply isn’t telling the truth here? Is it you, the Labour group, the media or someone else? I fail to see how you and the Labour group can claim, “the observance of St. George's Day has never, as far as we can remember, been raised by either public or press”. Every year in the run up to St George’s Day and indeed on the day itself the press and the general public ask why as a nation the English don’t seem to celebrate St George’s Day. Look out for the issue being in the press this year, you may wish to take some press clippings to remind you in future years.

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Or Alan and Ann Keen for fleecing the public purse?

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Does anyone agree that matters such as these should be openly debated rather than being formulated in a "private meeting of councillors"?

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Good here isn't it?

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Sarah *Where lies the reward in stupid decision such as this one? - The re-election hopes of a few councillors. *Who gets the glory from such a stupid decision? - The councillors who hope to be re-elected. *Who is being manipulated by such a stupid decision? - All of us, especially so those the councillors plan to placate.*Who is going to lose out from such a stupid decision? - Everyone, diversity and multi-culture is diminished by such antics from the Civic Centre.

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

If anyone has missed witnessing the pantomime type performances of Cllr Hughes in operation at meetings at the Civic Centre, I suggest that you go along to the Civic Centre now before his tenure as councillor lapses. His heckling and smirking while swinging around in his chair performances, playing to the likes of Cllrs Chat, Ellar and others are potentially excellent if anyone is interested in observing child behaviour.

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Sarah I don’t subscribe to this news as being political correctness going wrong. I’m more of the opinion that certain politicians have decided to manipulate what should be a day of celebration, to suit their own hidden agenda.

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

SarahPotentially so but these politicians are there to represent us all and therefore should do just that - rather than playing to a minority in the gallery. Amazing to think that the local authority won’t back St George’s Day but will back so many other ‘celebrations’. Why do you suppose this is so?

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Phil I'm not too sure of it being a pre-election gesture. I'm more of the opinion that the local authority not celebrating St George’s Day is more of a pre-election knife in the back of many within the electorate. As a local authority, Hounslow won't celebrate a national Saint yet is more than happy to spend millions on a centre for conferences, which is a rather grey issue in that conferences isn't what the building seems to be designed to cater for.I suppose that as in the case of the so called conference centre, if St George's Day is renamed, then it can go ahead, endorsed by the New Labour councillors of Lampton Road. Come on you councillors, play fair and encourage diversity for all rather than giving us lip service.

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Jim I don't think that it should be an issue of how many are 'English', more to the point should be that the council is there to represent us all and that means celebrating the diversity of all who live within the borough, the borough we all contribute to through our taxes and our efforts.

Gareth Evans ● 7391d

Sorry Val, I can't agree with your interpretation of Peta Vaught's motion that fell. It read "That this Group believes that the LB Hounslow should celebrate St George's Day. That this day should be marked by, for example, raising the Cross of St George at the Civic Centre, an article in HM, and encouraging local schools and youth organisations to participate in celebrations."This proposal clearly does not attempt to instruct schools to do anything. As such, Ms Vaught's approach towards schools is identical to that always taken by Hounslow's Education Department when encouraging schools to consider celebrating Diwali, Eid and other religious events, and ought to have been non-controversial.I recognise that a number of Labour councillors like yourself would like distance yourselves from the neanderthal views Ms Vaught quoted from the Group meeting that I suspect emanated from some of the more out of touch from real life elements of the Feltham Mafia.

John Connelly ● 7391d

I didn't hear the L.B.C. discussion, but, if as Vanessa says, Cllr Ellar made the point that the main issue was about letting schools make their own decisions about St. George's Day, then, sorry to disappoint you, but his statement was an accurate one.All the councillors present supported the idea of flying the flag of St. George at the Civic Centre, allegations of a 'snub' are simply not true. We fly the Union Jack on Armistice Day - why would we 'snub' St. George?Because the observance of St. George's Day has never, as far as we can remember, been raised by either public or press, we decided that the best thing to do was to ask residents what they thought. Visit the Hounslow Council web site: www.hounslow.gov.uk and make your views known.We tried to react to this proposal in a responsible way,as our position has been misrepresented I hope this goes some way toward setting the record straight.

Valerie Lamey ● 7391d

If Cllr. Hughes carries on with his unacceptable ravings on local Forums - I for one wouldn't be so sure. What with him and the Leader of the Council trying to wriggle out of the unholy row he has caused by telling a radio programme the Labour Group actions were to allow schools to have a choice of whether or not they flew our national flag on 23 April!?, Who could take Labour seriously?, and I'm a  member! Rarely have I heard such b******t.

Vanessa Smith ● 7392d

I see from the smiley at the end that this is a joke.

Luke Smith ● 7392d

Would winning Brentford & Isleworth qualify? :o)

Phil Andrews ● 7392d

Sorry Phil, for a minute there I thought you were implying that you were able to do something newsworthy...

Luke Smith ● 7392d

Councillor Oulds yes, I forgot about him.  Councillor Hughes to my knowledge hasn't been national news - yet.  But it could be arranged.

Phil Andrews ● 7392d

Erm - Cllr. Hughes Luke?

Vanessa Smith ● 7392d

Erm, Cllr Oulds anyone?

Luke Smith ● 7392d

It's nice for the borough to be in the news.  Brentford FC's excellent performance against Southampton apart, we haven't hit the headlines since Ann Keen's expense claim was exposed.

Phil Andrews ● 7392d

Off with their heads I say!

Vanessa Smith ● 7392d

... ... will Cllr Vaught be for the chop, too?... ... will this make Richard & Judy, this afternoon?Crumbs!

Sarah Felstead ● 7392d

The decision was taken by members of the Labour Group meeting on 31st January. Labour Group meetings are private meetings, but fortunately for the public Councillor Vaught who proposed the motion to fly the flag decided to divulge what took place to the local media.

John Connelly ● 7392d

I didn't hear the full programme and thought people were calling in with their views - so I missed the Leader of the Pack who, according to the Chis-wick thread, said that the decision was taken at a "private meeting of councillors".Maybe we could start with "who wasn't invited", to work out the significance of the few who were?Did anyone else hear the full interview?

Sarah Felstead ● 7392d

Woke up to LBC discussion about some pathetic Council who has banned St Georges Day - yup! ... ... how stupid!Houslow Council hits the headlines - and for all the wrong reasons!Its on now!

Sarah Felstead ● 7392d

The answer is probably entwined in the deep dark depths of a confused line of logic set into play because of somebodys power kick?*Where lies the reward in stupid decision such as this one?*Who gets the glory from such a stupid decision?*Who is being manipulated by such a stupid decision? *Who is going to lose out from such a stupid decision?(I venture that it is the Community as a whole)Fights such as these only serve to be divisive.  A fight like this wouldn’t be going on unless it was hoped that there was going to be a loser.While we are about it - isn't it about time we had a clear policy on flags for everyone and applied it regularly, and normally instead of allowing this situation to rear its head again each year?There is enough space for several flag poles outside the Civic centre.  My only request is that they remember, with respect, what a flag stands for, and wash the damn things on a regular basis!

Sarah Felstead ● 7393d

Sarah, I am still not clear why this barmy decision has been made - in spite of asking Cllr. Hughes twice, all I can get is some gobbledegook response. Any idea?

Vanessa Smith ● 7393d

John for many years the UK ethnic minorities (Scots, Welsh in particular) objected to the English use of the union jack.Too right too, the Union Jack does not to my mind represent the Welsh, we have our own national flag thanks very much.

Gareth Evans ● 7395d

Sarah For a long time before I started viewing this forum, I had only ever heard fair, reasonable, and good judgement, comments about Cllr Connelly.Agreed.

Gareth Evans ● 7395d

We didn't lose at Bannockburn.  It was a draw.  The Scots cheated.  I know, I've seen the film.

Phil Andrews ● 7395d

For a long time before I started viewing this forum, I had only ever heard fair, reasonable, and good judgement, comments about Cllr Connelly.I have just checked with the main person to say this, to check, in view of some of the comments now flying around which might ask one to believe anything else!.Main person has confirmed this is one and the same, Cllr Connelly.  He mixed with Cllr Connelly through being a school governor a few years ago and added, nothing Cllr Connelly said, ever unsettled him.This is the difficulty when the political-power-people allow non-political-personages into the areas that they consider they normally control....?  They then continue behaving on the same way and ignore the strained looks from the incomers?For Cllr Connelly to come away with such lovely, normal-person-type-comments, is in itself, huge praise!

Sarah Felstead ● 7395d

"Read in today's local that the Labour Group have voted not to fly the Cross of St. George on April 23rd because it would be seen as "divisive". Have they finally taken leave of their senses? I find that deeply offensive never mind divisive, yet another all too frequent example of political correctness gone mad? "Yes,

Sarah Felstead ● 7395d

Yes.

Sarah Felstead ● 7395d

To nobody in particular.Tis a sad state of affairs that I think that I understand enough background information about these political shenanegans, to per'raps understand a teensy weensy dig?Tsk, Tsk.

Sarah Felstead ● 7395d

Quits!

John Connelly ● 7395d

We'll forget Culloden, if you forget Bannockburn!

Keith Iddon ● 7395d

"I celebrate the day with various people in a pub that sells English style beer"NeilI celebrate most days thus...

Phil Andrews ● 7396d

John,Why exclude Culloden. A great victory against the fading embers of the Stuart family. I do believe that as John says multiculturalism is a 2 way thing. In Australia I celebrate the day with various people in a pub that sells English style beer. Its a great day.

Neil Chippendale ● 7396d

Jim, if you subscribe to the multicultural agenda, as I do, you will welcome the acceptance of many in the host community in Hounslow of Diwali, Eid, Basakhi (spelling errror?), the New Year (sacred to the Scots) etc. as regular events celebrated in Hounslow. But multiculturalism is a 2 way process, and this means the rest of us have to recognise the right of you English to celebrate your heritage as well - as long as the massacre at Culloden is excluded!

John Connelly ● 7396d

JohnYou are absolutely correct to say that in the 1970s the NF used the Union Flag.  In the 1980s it was either the Union Flag or the Celtic Cross depending on which faction one happened to be a part of, but that's another story.  I don't know which flag the BNP uses these days, but there has certainly been a "rediscovery" of the St. George's Flag by English people in general, most evidently during sporting events.To my knowledge there is no significant BNP presence anywhere in this borough.  If there had been they would be shouting about it, because that is the nature of such groups.  There will always be one or two idiots who will put up posters or paint slogans, and one or two is all it needs.  As for such things as street newspaper sales, these are often undertaken by travelling teams.  As such I don't buy the "encouraging the BNP" argument, however this whole issue is not one sue which I have particularly strong feelings about one way or the other.I believe this to be wholly or in part an election stunt, based on the (in my opinion mistaken) view that people from ethnic and cultural minorities will be impressed.  It also occurred to me that the Labour leadership was hoping to provoke a jingoistic response from its opponents in the hope that minorities would as a result feel alienated from them, but just possibly I am crediting said leadership with too much intelligence.  That said, somebody gave the story to the paper and did so, presumably, for a reason.It is an interesting debate, but way down on my list of priorities I am afraid.  The Tories might prove a better option.

Phil Andrews ● 7396d

I'm all for National Days...and flying flags..and don't mind my neighbours flying their India, Italian, Finnish, Polish,or Spanish flags if they wish. I'm glad to see that they are proud of their nation.We are lucky in London to be able to meet and see so many different nationalities..and I don't mind if Trafalgar Square is occupied each day..by a nation celebrating its day. (Eskimos from Greenland on 6th June!!).Its the suppression of the English flag that miffs one...and IMHO the Civic Centre are doing themselves no favours...."in rubbing our faces in the mud"  At least the football ,rugby ,and cricket crowds have  shown the flag in recent times.Soon,no doubt, the discussion will swing towards any Ken Livingstone sponsored St Patrick's Day celebration in Traf Sq.  I think its great....but unfair when others are discouraged.

Jim Lawes ● 7396d

I may have missed something, Phil, but I don't see what is vote-catching about refusing to fly the English flag on St George's Day. This decision by the Labour Group was not one of political correctness but one of political idiocy. Refusing to fly this flag can only offend, and I am amazed at the lack of community leadership this snub indicates.The Times article suggests some Feltham councillors thought the flying of the flag would be devisive and might encourage the BNP. My recollection of the days in the 1970's and 1980's when racist groups were active locally is that the flag primarily associated with the NF was the Union Flag, and as one who attended a number of Anti-Nazi League counter-demonstrations in that period I struggle to remember much evidence of St George's flags.As far as football is concerned, for many years the UK ethnic minorities (Scots, Welsh in particular) objected to the English use of the union jack. The adoption by supporters of the proper English flag is non-controversial.A final point, doesn't the Church of England fly the St George flag on churches on 23rd April?

John Connelly ● 7396d

Very well said Vanessa. I'ts a shame that inclusiveness and respect for cultures (in the warped,wrong-headed minds of those responsible)does not include the English.This is one of the things,(ie:not allowing celebrations like this)that contributes to a feeling of marginalisation and resentment of others being allowed to celebrate,and have their celebrations officially recognised(at public expense).It's almost like they're rubbing our noses in it, if you know what I mean.    Why is it deemed so harmful to celebrate this day?Will it be the end of civilisation as we knopw it if we do?I have long ago ceased to have any confidence in the Labour Party representing or highlighting English culture in a positive way or taking any notice of public opinion,unless of course that 'public' is from an ethnic minority community.

Keith Iddon ● 7396d

Eh???

Phil Andrews ● 7396d

Sit on the fence why don't you.

Vanessa Smith ● 7396d

I've no doubt this is a pre-election gesture of some kind, however for me it is not an issue for as long as the Civic Centre and the odious regime therein goes to such extraordinarily lengths to perpetuate division on our estates and in our community.They can fly a pair of Colin Ellar's underpants over the wretched place for all I care.  What matters more to me is seeing a real spirit of unity encouraged and not shunned by our lords and masters at Lampton Road. This would be far more useful to all the citizens of this borough than some tacky vote-catching stunt like this.

Phil Andrews ● 7396d

Yes I do mean the Labour Councillors I have no idea how many are "English" as opposed to "British" and to be honest I don't care - all I know is I'm living in England and I'm feeling pretty miffed. They fly every other b*****s flag so why not ours?

Vanessa Smith ● 7396d

Vanessa: Of this powerful "Labour Group"..do you mean the 37 Labour Councillors?How many of them are English?

Jim Lawes ● 7396d