Forum Topic

EU Referendum

Stay? Go?You decide!Me - um, undecided ...

Anne England ● 3457d44 Comments

"A 'Go' vote will mean that we are still in control of our own affairs ... A 'No' vote is a vote for democracy - an imperfect, shaky democracy perhaps, but better than no democracy at all."You obviously have more confidence in the British political system than I have Mick.  Global capitalism is an evil octopus which strangles the life out of our communities and our nation states, and we get more of the same whether we vote In or Out, but for me as I've said before the UK establishment is particularly pernicious because its propaganda machine is just so slick and sophisticated - the voting system, privately-owned media, political "spin" culture and our own innate stupidity working together in such perfect harmony as they do.This is why I have (albeit only slightly) more confidence in the ability of continental voters to break through it all than I do in British voters.  Just consider the way in which even the alleged party of "opposition" is beating itself up for having momentarily forgotten its place and elected a leader with one foot in the camp of modest reform.The EU is imperfect and shaky, very much so on both counts in fact, but it hasn't got machination and subterfuge off to quite the same fine art as our own political class which is why genuine reforming legislation does on occasions make it onto the statute book.

Phil Andrews ● 3449d

Well said

Robert Ayres ● 3449d

There is no salvation in the EU. With TTIP on its way there is only increasing danger for democracy and national sovereignty. A "Stay" vote will increase the power of Cameron and his corporate masters. A "Go" vote will mean that we are still in control of our own affairs (unless, of course, the EU force us to keep voting until we get it "right" - as they did with Ireland).A "No" vote is a vote for democracy - an imperfect, shaky democracy perhaps, but better than no democracy at all.

Mick Brent ● 3449d

Their..that's better..;-)

Keith Iddon ● 3451d

Yes sorry divided fat fingers on an I phone

Robert Ayres ● 3451d

Mmmm. I have heard of correct spelling though.

William Prentice ● 3451d

I wonder how many others will console themselves with I hate the Tories but I have to vote for there European policy.  Dave and his mates are playing the public to get what they want.  Have you ever heard of devide and conquer

Robert Ayres ● 3451d

You could say Vanessa that there are some good reasons for leaving in your summing up. The world has indeed moved om in forty years and I'm not sure the EU is moving in the same direction.Not sure what geography has to do with it in this day and age. We might be better off if we weren't quite so physically close.

Keith Iddon ● 3451d

Disagree - my gut feeling is that we are best served by staying in - we are a small country geographically situated too near to mainland Europe to throw a hissy fit and hike. Have you heard of the saying 'adversity makes for strange bedfellows' well that's why I find myself in the same camp as the odious Dave and his sidekick Georgie, that can't be helped. The world has moved on in forty years and I'm afraid we have to move with it. If we do get lumbered with this shower for the foreseeable future our only salvation may well be that we are in the EU.

Vanessa Smith ● 3451d

Woah! Calm down. First we are talking about Europe. Let's deal with them first. I am for out. Next, if as you say dodgy Dave and his mates are up no good why would you support any deal these people propose? If the Tories are pushing the stay-in-Europe line, yes you can bet your bottom dollar there is something in it for them. So why not vote out, scupper Dave who would have to resign and then take on a tory party who have had their policy rejected by the Electorate. A vote to stay is a vote for Dave.

Robert Ayres ● 3451d

"Apart from that we have enough home grown idiots, our politicians, Tory, Labour, Liberal, but at least we get to choose who makes our laws and if we don't like it we get a chance to kick them out. Not so in Europe. They make laws and we have to suck it up. It's a dictatorship so it's out for me."Not so - the Tories are deliberately engineering things to ensure that they can stay in power far into the future, don't you read the papers? Have you seen the effect that the proposed 'reforms' will have on the make up of M.Ps especially rigged to disadvantage everyone but the Tories? It's also come out today that Dodgy Dave and Georgie Osborne whilst in coalition blocked moves to build more social housing as they believed it would help the Labour Party, that's such outdated nonsense. They stand accused of "the Americanisation of British politics in which they are rigging the rules against their opponents in the hope of creating a one party state".Nick Clegg has said 'that the Tory's moves had departed dramatically from the tradition that the "rules of the game" in British politics were agreed on a cross party basis. He cited their "petty, spiteful" moves to cripple Labour's funding by changing the way trade unionists pay the political levy and cutting state funding for opposition parties'.So if they get away with that Good Luck with kicking them out mate.

Vanessa Smith ● 3451d

Thought about it. Immigration out of control. Fishing industry destroyed, Euro zone unemployment through the roof.I want a light bulb that works, Euro currency headed for disaster (how can a euro in Germany be worth the same as a euro in Greece) Run by an unelected quango called the commission. Their accountants have always refused to sign off the accounts because they can't trace where all the money has gone and we are talking billions. Apart from that we have enough home grown idiots, our politicians, Tory, Labour, Liberal, but at least we get to choose who makes our laws and if we don't like it we get a chance to kick them out. Not so in Europe. They make laws and we have to suck it up. It's a dictatorship so it's out for me.

Robert Ayres ● 3451d

I'm glad Mick and Phil are concerned about the looming TTIP, they're right to be i.m.o.  AFAICS. This is a giant US con, much bigger than the selling off of worthless sub prime mortgages to our thicko bankers.    I'm not anti American per se, I've had some great holidays there,but would I trust "Corporate America" not to rip me off (make that Europe)....naah!    The EUs estimate of the annual income from TTIP by countries is:-    EU €110billion    US €90 billion  Rest of World €100 billion    It looks good until you share out the EUs bit by it's 27 member states and the R.O.W by goodness knows how many,leaving the good old US of A with surprisingly the lions share,and then you have to wonder where all that extra money is coming from, I hope it's not me.   

Tony Wood ● 3453d

I think any supporter of Corbyn would argue that the opposition voice is being stifled in the UK right now.  Certainly the mainstream media has no interest in giving airtime to a point of view which challenges its own vested interests.  Just as locally the major parties are absolutely as one in their unease at any manifestation of genuine community-based opposition.My point is that locally, nationally and Europe-wide we are ruled by faceless bureaucrats who operate through the talking-head politicians which dominate the respective legislatures.  I just happen to believe that we have a slightly better chance of breaking through it all in Europe than we do in the UK, because the British establishment is in my view the most sophisticated and pernicious propaganda machine ever devised by man.

Phil Andrews ● 3454d

Indeed Phil but surely that is not always the case in the UK. In the EU it seems that any opposition voice will be stifled as a matter of principle.

Keith Iddon ● 3454d

Leave leave leave. The term "no-brainer" was invented for this issue, surely.

Mike Paterson ● 3454d

Who were the opposition in this country before Corbyn became Labour leader?Who are the opposition in Hounslow?  Not the Tories, that's for sure.

Phil Andrews ● 3454d

Yes Phil..but it does help to have an effective opposition, whoever is in power. I don't think that the burghers of the EU have an opposition at all, unless I'm missing something.

Keith Iddon ● 3454d

No sure the average Greek worker would agree with your 'worker's paradise' scenario Phil, since austerity and all that. It's partly the ridiculous and unsustainable generosity toward workers that got them where they are today and having Germany, the biggest debt deniers in world history, rubbing their noses in it must hurt until the pips squeak. One of the principal reasons that Germany is the powerhouse it is today is that it basiclly ignored the war debts and forged ahead, with the help of Uncle Sam. Perhaps if they weren't quite so cosseted we would have a fairer and more democratic EU.

Keith Iddon ● 3454d

"UK governments are only in power for 5 years at a time"Only if you buy the charade.  The truth is the government that is in power today has been in power for decades.But I do take your point about TTIP, which is a very deeply worrying development, at least in its present form.

Phil Andrews ● 3454d

"Corbyn is talking about remaining in the EU and working from there to build a fairer Europe, which on balance is probably a marginally less impossible task than building a fairer system within an isolated UK.  Strictly on that basis I think I would concur, but I'm open to persuasion."I think the opposite is the case, Phil. UK governments are only in power for 5 years at a time. The unelected EU "government" is pretty much permanent. If we stay within the EU, TTIP will effectively destroy the NHS and anything else remotely progressive in the UK. There is no realistic chance whatever of reforming the EU from the inside or the outside.

Mick Brent ● 3454d

I'm with Mick on almost everything he says there, but the immediate choice as I see it is between a European super-capitalist entity and a stand-alone UK capitalism.  And whilst exploitation is exploitation, the Germans do at least seem to understand that treating workers with a modicum of respect and involving them in decision making does help to get the best out of them, whilst the mentality in Britain is to wring every last drop of sweat from the workforce at the lowest possible price while the privately-owned media sets about trying to persuade us that all our problems are visited upon us by immigrants, the disabled and benefit claimants.Corbyn is talking about remaining in the EU and working from there to build a fairer Europe, which on balance is probably a marginally less impossible task than building a fairer system within an isolated UK.  Strictly on that basis I think I would concur, but I'm open to persuasion.

Phil Andrews ● 3454d

This is worth a read -http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11691955/European-Union-exit-could-make-British-households-933-richer.html - how your vote could impact locally.

Martin Case ● 3454d

I was two years too young first time around and am glad of a vote now. Like him or loathe him, and I fall between the two, I think we have Nigel Farage to thank for getting this vital referendum onto the agenda.The 'Common Market' as was has morphed into something completely  different to what most people expected and seems to exist in it's own bureaucratic universe.If anyone doubts that the ultimate idea is one huge state, essentially governed by faceless and unelected numpties it would be impossible to oust, then wake up and smell the sauerkraut and garlic.

Keith Iddon ● 3454d

Yes, a good many of us have been around that long. I voted NO to joining and then YES to staying. Now I really DON'T KNOW.

Anne England ● 3454d

OUT! - I opposed joining the Common Market in 1973 (and voted against it in 1975) because it was clear even then that the EU was designed to be a federalist state specifically designed to make it easier for the corporate rich to exploit the working classes of member countries. Back in 1973, most of the Labour Party (in those days it still contained some socialists) were rightly opposed to the Common Market. Unfortunately most of them have now been seduced by faux internationalism and identity politics and have forgotten the reason why their party exists - and in that I include the ultra-liberal Corbyn.

Mick Brent ● 3454d

I hate it so couldn't blame them. BUT, she is such a nice lady, even if a bit over sponsored.

William Prentice ● 3455d

You could probably buy your own castle in Transylvania and a lifetime supply of garlic and crucifixes for that kind of money and still have change. You are correct about stimulating local economies, in effect it would be better all round to subsidise people to stay where they they are rather than having the confusing and distressing free for all that we see now.As for adopting the Pound, I can just see a Frenchman taking out his wallet and seeing pictures of our Lizzie, can't you? ;-)

Keith Iddon ● 3455d

The single currency has caused a fair few problems, not so much in the beginning but now with countries from the east the discrepancies are really showing.I wonder if you can get a 2 bed flat in Romania for under £500,000....I feel this is the problem with unbridled immigration - perhaps instead of paying out the benefits over here, which increases our population unnaturally and excessively, the EU could have come up with a better idea about invigorating the economies of the eastern countries so the incentive wasn't there to hop across borders for the benefit of benefits.

William Prentice ● 3455d

Because the French will probably have a hissy fit, like wot De Gaulle  had and bar us from re-entry. It has already been mooted that we will be barred from going back in.I wonder if Europe had done the logical thing and adopted the Pound instead of the Euro whether many of Europe's problems would have been avoided....

Keith Iddon ● 3455d

I can't see why it should be a problem Keith. We are a civilised and well developed country and have much to offer, either in or out.I remember joining the Common Market and then voting in the 1975 referendum to stay in. Sadly, the EU has turned into the horse designed by a committee - a camel!

William Prentice ● 3455d

If voting 'out' will mean getting Boris as PM sooner rather than never, then I'm definitely 'in'!

Ian Fillingham ● 3455d

If the Government were interested in businesses they would not do stupid things that stop business from trading.    Putting a stranglehold on trading by closing access routes to and from other businesses, does not help anyone prosper.Close one border, close them all!As they say on The Appprentice "Im out"

Brian McMillan ● 3455d

"Business and I pay taxes."Well unless you're Amazon, Starbucks, Google...

Phil Andrews ● 3455d

Out

Paul Fisher ● 3455d

In fairness, if something is good for business - business pays my salary, business and I pay taxes which in turn pay benefits, etc.If something is not good for business - the source for salaries and taxes gets smaller.

Alex Shpinkov ● 3455d

I'm sure you're right Keith, all I keep hearing is how wonderful it all is for business.

Phil Andrews ● 3456d

I doubt that's even on the agenda Phil.

Keith Iddon ● 3456d

I'm for staying in on the grounds that all the more progressive legislation that we've had in recent years, particularly in the area of employment, has come from Europe whilst successive UK governments have sought to curtail our rights.  However I'm tempted to vote Out simply because it is the option which the establishment doesn't want.I was also unimpressed by the EU's treatment of Greece, which would be the fate of any other member country under similar circumstances.  If we are to remain then I would like to see a reformed EU which saw its role as being to serve the people of Europe rather than the bankers.

Phil Andrews ● 3456d

I am not as sure as you appear to be that rejoining would be an option William.

Keith Iddon ● 3456d

Let's get out and see what happens.We can always get back in, which is something people forget.

William Prentice ● 3456d

I'm undecided too, Anne. I think the EU has got itself into a right old mess: unwieldy and corrupt. But if we leave, they will blame us when it all falls apart.

Susan Kelly ● 3456d

Out

Tony Richmond ● 3456d

Stay.

Vanessa Smith ● 3456d