Forum Topic

A question for Alan Sheerins

Who has the final say on the content of the election materials you sent out into the public domain?  Is it you or is it Ann?  Does Ann even look at them?  She spends all her time in Covent Garden so I'm just wondering did she even see one of her own election flyers?

Conal Stewart ● 7283d73 Comments

What I find most offensive about people who sling these unfounded accusations about is their complete contempt for people. Perhaps I should mention that my wife is Indian. To sugest that I have right wing views (although these people do not know me) is surely libellous.

Andrew Sibley ● 7275d

On a personal level i cannot explain enough Keith how much anquish this collective group put myself and my partner through at the time because of the leaflets they delivered through selected letterboxes.We were all painted as having a hidden agenda and worse in the leaflets which were delivered to our neighbours.Many people would have been angry and upset at the very least if this happened to them or their friends and perhaps thought they could not challange the "big boys" who had made the false accusations.We decided that they should not be allowed to get away with this and took them to court and after some sessions before a District Judge they alledged they had no idea who wrote the accusations,what was on the leaflets and where their Agent was!They also alledged in court that at no time had they been involved in the production of them and had no idea who did produce them.They did admit that they had folded the leaflets,put them in envelopes and even knew the selected addresses to take them to but even though they were desperate to keep their seats on the Council not one of them had any idea of the contents which was their last throw of the dice.All this is on record.

Paul Fisher ● 7275d

Isn't all this sad and depressing that because a 'politician'of whatever level hasn't taken an oath in court feels free and easy about bearing false witness.And then to wriggle and writhe and to not even be big enough to admit the immorality and the unethical behaviour they have exhibited,even if it proves to be not illegal.Shades of a certain local member of parliament's behaviour over expenses etc?Treating people with utter contempt seems to be the order of the day.Well,I wouldn't join any party that would have THEM as a member,never mind what Groucho said

Keith Iddon ● 7275d

Well said Andrew,i stated in the court case and i believe it was on oath when i was on the stand that to the best of my knowledge that i had never heard one member of the ICG make a racist comment in my company since i joined including Cllr Andrews.I also stated in the witness box that if i ever had or ever did i would go straight to the local media and tell them so because racism discusts me.We have never to this day recieved any form of apology from the Local Labour Party for what they put myself and my colleagues through and then a year and a half later Mrs Smith almost gloating decides to change her version of events from what she told the court.

Paul Fisher ● 7275d

Perhaps,to paraphrase Harold Wilson speaking to Ted Heath in about 1970,you could do a deal with them. If they stop telling lies about you, you will stop telling the truth about them...:-)

Keith Iddon ● 7276d

The good people of this forum may be interested to know that at the election count in 2002, all three labour candidates for Isleworth South spent most of the night refering to the ICG as the "the far right". Now one of them freely admits to being there when their election leaflet was being put together which accuses the ICG of being a front for the National Front.I am a member of the ICG and was in 2002. I wish to put it on record that I have never had any association with the National Front or any other similar organisation and I have never held any of the views that they are associated with. To my knowlege the only member of the ICG who has had such dealings is Mr. Andrews. He has made it clear to everyone that he no longer holds these views and has publicly renounced his association with the N.F. If I thought that the ICG had any right wing agenda I would not have become a member.I was deeply offended at the time when this literature was distributed and when the Labour candidates were mouthing off at the civic centre on the night of the count.I now notice that since Vanessa's little admission the Labour Party have gone suspiciously quiet. Well let me tell you this Vanessa, the honest, law abiding people who belong to the ICG will not let this matter rest. You and your colleagues have no right to accuse us of something we are not. You have even less right to lie in court. The only decent thing for you and your colleagues to do now is to make a public apology and resign from any office that you may hold in the Labour Party. 

Andrew Sibley ● 7276d

No we won't, stop trying to fudge the issue Vanessa.

Conal Stewart ● 7276d

I don't need to have been there, you are a very silly woman for saying this.  A very silly woman indeed.  I'm not sure you should be on here making matters worse for yourself and your cohorts.

Conal Stewart ● 7276d

I think we all should be involved in this.  Telling fat ones in court is plainly stupid Vanessa.

Conal Stewart ● 7276d

Erm.. the fact that she might, er.. well be mad.Can't she be reported to the police for this sort of thing?

Conal Stewart ● 7276d

If the form book is anything to go by, expect a long silence from Alan and the Labour Party.  Either that or a lot of hot air, threats and demands for an apology for besmirching Vanessa's good name.

Phil Andrews ● 7276d

Shovel, anybody?

Phil Andrews ● 7276d

First, let's be clear about this, Vanessa Smith has been caught out lying.  Next, we need to know whether her party is going to distance itself from her lies or try to justify them (over to you Alan Sheerins).At the very least we need a statement from the Labour Party, do you disown lies of this kind or do you encourage them?  Will Vanessa continue to enjoy the privelege of being the Labour Party's spokesman in Isleworth or will she be rebuked?Lastly, to repeat, does Alan Sheerins approve of the lies told by his comrade Vanessa Smith or will he try to place some distance between them and his party?Try as you might, Alan, the truth always comes out in the end!

Jayne Owen ● 7276d

"And here it is - I was present, as were quite a few other people, when the then Agent was actually putting the thing together on the desktop, she could not have been that "surprised" as she typed it up as well! "I was present in the Court as you are well aware and i know that the version you told in that room was a million miles from your latest version of events.No amount of digging will get you out of this hole Vanessa.

Paul Fisher ● 7277d

You weren't there either, so again you have ony heard one version.

Vanessa Smith ● 7277d

I don't know you - but as you were not present and therefore only apparently know one version of events, I really don't think this is anything for you to get involved in.

Vanessa Smith ● 7277d

First no-one took an oath in the County Court, which is a civil court, and even if I had I would tell you exactly the same thing - second I still don't know who wrote it - I said the Agent helped type it and put it together not that she wrote it or even contributed to the content. Just move on - and get over it.

Vanessa Smith ● 7277d

I cannot believe she just said that.  I really can't.

Conal Stewart ● 7277d

Phil will this mean you will be taking the High Court route this time, as it will be almost impossible for Mrs. Smith and Co. to wriggle of the hook this time?

Morag Campbell Hawick ● 7277d

I think it's now obvious who has been telling the truth all along.Vannesa what on earth possesed you to commit such a faux pas? as to commit to print the fact that you commited perjury with malice aforethought have you gone mad girl?

Morag Campbell Hawick ● 7277d

I also printed your last post Vanessa the moment i read it.Your version in court was not quite the same was it?

Paul Fisher ● 7277d

...and to think you told the Court, under oath, that you had no idea who produced the leaflet or what was written on it.And don't bother asking Matt to erase the posting, because I have already printed a copy off.Do you know what perjury is, Vanessa?  If you don't, ask Jonathan Aitken - he's out of prison now.

Phil Andrews ● 7277d

And here it is - I was present, as were quite a few other people, when the then Agent was actually putting the thing together on the desktop, she could not have been that "surprised" as she typed it up as well! As no-one heard from her again, or was able to get any response from her after her stint as Agent, who was it she was supposed to have spoken to and when?

Vanessa Smith ● 7277d

Well Vanessa, I'm still waiting for an answer to Phil's question.

Conal Stewart ● 7278d

Is this really what passes for discussion of local issues in Brentford these days?  A better case for disengaing from politicals I have never seen.Grow up all of you!

Trevor Godman ● 7280d

Then once again, Vanessa, why don't you enlighten us as to the true version of events and show the world what a load of old cobblers I am talking?Cue end of discussion.

Phil Andrews ● 7282d

OK Vanessa, here is your opportunity to enlighten us as to what my REAL objectives are.  As you bang on about my alleged "real agenda" incessantly and your expertise on the matter is clearly unsurpassed, I have no doubt that you will avail yourself of this unique opportunity to put other users of this site into the picture - indeed it is surely your moral duty to do so. What political ambitions COULD I have?Cue end of discussion.

Phil Andrews ● 7282d

Yes - but then on the other hand Alan, he doesn't have any long term political ambitions either, which really makes you wonder why you'd bother at all if that was the case.....strange that.

Vanessa Smith ● 7282d

Someone is telling you porkies, either that or you are - because that simply isn't true, I would take the things my "contacts" tell me with a large dose of salt in future, a bigger load of old cobblers I've never read.

Vanessa Smith ● 7282d

Oh.. thats an interesting snippet.

Conal Stewart ● 7282d

Does this not prove several things Phil?1.  Alan Sheerins does not care what people think of Labour election materials.2.  Alan Sheerins wouldn't wish to claim responsibility for their content.3. Ann Keen has little to do with the materials that "promote" her.

Conal Stewart ● 7282d

2nd attempt to post this in the right place - should be after Phils posting of 12:47.  Sorry.Dear Phil - this should cheer you up.  My Uncle was at Phillips Academy in Andover Mass, during the time George Bush was there.  He remembers him as being good at sports but not very academic.  George Bush's nickname was Poppy.... you can imagine what Roger Bunn made of this snippet on W4!  ;-)

Sarah Felstead ● 7282d

Dear Phil - this should cheer you up.  My Uncle was at Phillips Academy in Andover Mass, during the time George Bush was there.  He remembers him as being good at sports but not very academic.  George Bush's nickname was Poppy.... you can imagine what Roger Bunn made of this snippet on W4!  ;-)

Sarah Felstead ● 7282d

ConalStephen Curran is a co-opted member of the Isleworth & Brentford Area Committee whom I have spoken to socially on a number of occasions.  He is a decent guy and I would be surprised if he was behind some this material.As I have said previously the girl who was the Election Agent at the time when the hate leaflets were distributed in Isleworth did not subsequently appear in court to defend them, but I heard through Labour contacts in the ICG that she was surprised by their content and certainly played no part in composing them.In my view it is a brave (or careless) person who agrees to be a New Labour Agent in this part of the world, knowing that the people you are working for neither adhere to nor understand accepted norms of decency and that much of the material which will be produced in your name is likely to be scurrilous and defamatory.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

I don't think you have been door to door Alan, you certainly haven't been on Boston Manor Road/Windmill Road.  I should know.You are so out of touch you simpky have no idea what people think of you.Most people I know in Brentford found your election material quite shameful.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

This is in the public domain? I merely vote Lib Dem and have made an application to join.  We all have a right  to know.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

NO you have not.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

Vanessa are you incapable of reading?

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

I think the bile they have spewed during the campaign should be a subject for discussion post election Vanessa. There is a lot to be said for being dignified i conduct during an election campaign.  As a memebr of this constituency I have every right to call into question the practices of an any party in Brentford.  In this case I am most concerned about how Alan and his colleaguse conducted this election and it is a matter were the Electoral Commission should have some reason for concern.  Alan has none.  Why have you a problem with this?

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

I know that, and on yours its says Stephen Curran.  However, that is an entirely different matter from who sanctioned and approved the content.I want to know who, and you won't tell me like you are ashamed.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

Well, you'll be pleased to hear that I won't be wasting much more of it Alan.  I firmly believe that the dark days of New Labour control at Hounslow Civic Centre are finally drawing to an end.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

I'd be interested to see if your copy corresponds with mine.  There was nothing in my copy which implied that the District Judge agreed that the comments on the leaflet about me were true.  From recollection (I don't have it to hand) she said something along the lines of that she didn't feel able to express a view one way or the other.  I remember thinking at the time of reading it that it was basically fair comment, even if it wasn't the complete absolution that I would obviously have preferred.Why don't you just cut and paste the quote which you are referring to on this forum for us all to see?  Then we can make our own minds up.What happened and didn't happen at court is a matter of public record, so if you quote the transcript and your quote is accurate then I would not be so stupid as to argue with it.  I am simply intrigued as to how you have managed to interpret the ruling as a total vindication of your comments about me, because it most certainly wasn't.On the question of the six other claimants (Caroline Andrews, Patricia Cole, Paul Fisher, Cheryl-Ann Khan, Brenda Muston and Fred Muston), even the three Defendants who bothered to turn up (Vanessa Smith, Patricia Nicholas and Janet Tindall) admitted that the allegations contained in their leaflet were untrue.  Had I been associated with allegations against another person which I knew to be untrue I would feel I had to apologise, but no apology was ever forthcoming to any of my colleagues from these charming people.The burden of proof in a claim for malicious falsehood lies with the Plaintiff.  We were required to prove not only falsehood but malice.  It was not for the Defendants to prove that they did not act out of malice, it was for us to prove that they did.  We could not prove that they did to the satisfaction of the District Judge, so the case fell.  Fair enough.I remain of the view that had the claim been made at the High Court for libel, where the burden of proof lies with the Defendant and where there is no requirement to establish malice, my six colleagues would definitely have won and I would probably have won.  That is if it had got to court in the first place, which is questionable and is why we opted for the safer but more difficult option of malicious falsehood.You may of course disagree, but if you are that confident why do you not simply repeat the allegation that members of the ICG are using the organisation as a front for the National Front and put it to the test?  You were strangely silent on this particular matter during the general election.Perhaps more relevant than all this is what the New Labour position is on these matters today.  Having admitted in court that you do not really believe the ICG leadership to be using the organisation as a front for the National Front in spite of the fact that you had made this claim in your election material, do you intend to publish leaflets again repeating the allegation that it is?  Or has your position changed at all, and if so how?This is not a trick question Alan.  Accusing somebody of being racist is a serious matter.  If you seriously think that members of the ICG are racists then you should have the courage to say so, and to defend your allegations rather than cravenly denying any knowledge of them as you, or rather your colleagues, did when giving evidence.  If you don't believe such a thing then you shouldn't say it in the first place.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

I have

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

Answer my question first.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

PhilGo back and read the judgement and tell us all what it says about you in particular. I will provide you with a copy if you don't have one.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

I agree Vanessa. There is more to life of course. The truth is that when you go door to door you get a real picture of what people think of you as a political Party. While it will always be a mixed picture, some support you some do not, I have never, on the door step, experienced the vicious lies and story telling and attempts at bullying you get from people like Andrews on these website threads. There is never an attempt to discuss a political issue in a balanced way. It always boils down to them trying to get at somebody and finding ever more spurious reasons for doing so. Still I  think that the ICG result at the General Election reflects the fact that voters are getting bored with the reactionary pedantry. In typical fashion the ICG put out a leaflet during the election saying "we can win", and when they lose they say the election was only a "side show". To top that Andrews asks the Tories for co-operation to defeat the Labour Party in Hounslow South, he rightly got a firm no from Adrian Lee. Andrews and the ICG have no respect for the electorate at all. He has not realised that the electorate do not share his obsessions. Still I think his obsession is really based on the fact that we are the only ones who have consistently challenged him throughout his political career, from his nasty fascist racist days to the present. He hates us for it. He is an obviously intelligent person but he is wasting his life with a petty obsession, it is truly sad to see.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

But what is more important is what the electorate thinks.  And you are in no position to be discussing judgments.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

Councillor Andrews to you Alan.  Mrs. Smith, Councillor Andrews - keep saying it and you'll get used to it!!

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

Do you see what I mean Conal?They still actually believe they did something clever by denying any responsibility for their own leaflets rather than having the moral courage to defend their contents under cross-examination.Clearly they either do not understand or do not care that the next time they publish leaflets accusing ICG members of all being closet National Front activists they will be viewed with absolute contempt, because they admitted in court that such claims were false and "won" only by convincing a District Judge that they had been unaware what was written on them when they handed them out.The transcript of the case clearly bears this out, and why Vanessa thinks I should want to keep it hidden goodness only knows.  What are these people on?In my view their triumphalism over their court "victory" only bears out what I have been saying about New Labour for a long time - that not only do they not have any principles, but they do not even seem to know what a principle is!

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

Alan, it is fascinating to observe that now the election is over the same old chestnuts get regurgitated yet again, it seems to be the (I was going to say grown-up, but perhaps not) equivalent of pulling the wings off flies. Surely there must be more to life than this constant bile directed at the Labour Party?

Vanessa Smith ● 7283d

VanessaHe is afraid to publish the judgement. In his case the leaflet was found to be neither malicious or false, by no less than a District Judge.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

Just get over it - you lost - simple as that, by the way did you ever print the judgement anywhere for anyone to read as you claimed you would? NO? I thought not.

Vanessa Smith ● 7283d

Fine theres appropriate sections of certain acts I'll quote at him (and probably bore you all with) if he doesn't answer me.  This is also a matter to be raised in the local rag.Alan maintains that I'm only asking the question for purely political purposes. I wonder would I be asking them for any other reasons? Personal? Emotional? The man isn't making a decent argument in not answering me. His party only produced them for political purposes and I only read them for political purposes.  I don't see how it would be anything else but a (reasonable) political issue to ask regardless of my political persuasions.Would he answer me if I was solidly Labour?  As indeed I have been in the past.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

ConalAll election addresses have the name of the person they are published by printed on them. Every political Party does this it is a legal requirement.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

ConalI am not going to tell the Liberal Democrats anything. They are an opposition Party.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

Fair enough - in this respect my posting was thoughtless, for which apologies.If it's any consolation though, he probably won't answer my question either.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

Phil could you help me out here please, and not distract Alan Sheerins from answering my question?Am much as what you say is reasonable, I don't want him to wander off topic.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

When all is said and done the Election Agent is supposed to be legally responsible for any material published in the name of his/her candidate.However when we took action through Brentford County Court in respect of one of Labour's leaflets at the 2002 local elections the Agent simply refused to turn up and the District Judge accepted the defence claims that the leaflets had been produced by persons unknown and had been distributed by the Labour candidates without any knowledge of what was written on them.The Electoral Commission is certainly likely to be a better option.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

AlanI know it has become your usual practice to avoid awkward questions, but would you please answer one for me which I ask in good faith and with all sincerity?My question is this - what motivates you, seriously, in your continued and passionate support for the New Labour Party?We have met on several occasions and you strike me as a genuinely nice guy (this is not soft soap, I am being serious here).Whilst I am not intimately acquainted with your political position you describe yourself as a "socialist" and a "lefty".You oppose, I believe, your party's policy on Iraq, foundation hospitals and tuition fees (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).As somebody who plays an important and trusted role in the local party you are obviously a key player, yet when you stand in elections it is usually in seats which you probably wouldn't expect to win, which suggests to me that your actions are not motivated by personal ambition.You do not strike me as a person to whom telling lies, avoiding questions, and defending policies which you don't really agree with would come naturally, as it would with certain of your colleagues whom I could name.Why, then, do you do it?  What is in it for you?  It is not as though you are going to be able to claim for a second house, or are likely to be awarded a peerage.  What then is your motivation?I can only think that, all the above notwithstanding, you still believe that "the end justifies the means" and that some good will eventually come from New Labour, or that maybe it is the lesser of two evils and a preferable alternative to the Conservatives.What drives you, Alan, to continue to defend the actions of Tony Bliar and Ann Keen, among others, against what I honestly believe to be your own better judgement?

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

Oh I am quite sure Mr Sheerins is wary of such a thing called the Electoral Commission.  I'm also quite sure he knows someone who works for them could well be reading/contributing to this forum.There is no justification for him to withold this information, just as there isn't for you, Andrew Dakers, or anyone else who stood in this election.  If materials are produced in the party's name they are fully accountable to scrutiny by the Electoral Commision.  There are very strict standards on this issue.  He knows that, and thats why he's being cagey.Someone was responsible for his local party materials and it is in his interests to answer as I won't let the issue drop.  I'll just take it to a bigger more learned audience.I can only presume that he was responsible due to his position in the Local Labour Group  (he at least should carry the can).  I seriously doubt Ann Keen approved any of the content.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

Mr.Andrews our American cousins only have to suffer Dubya for four more years, then he becomes a burning bush quite appropriate for the evangelists I think.But who knows how long we will have to suffer Tony Blair if the Tories and Lib Dems don't get their act together and work out some sort of a strategy to oust this present shower of misfits.One can only hope the French get it right and torpedo the E.U. constitution,then the P.M. will find himself in a hole right down to the bedrock, I just hope no one comes to his rescue, keeping on digging should keep him far to busy to screw up our country any more than he has done already. And who knows how many lives this may save?

Morag Campbell Hawick ● 7283d

ConalWas there anything in any of the leaflets which might be the subject of a complaint or legal action?It is an established New Labour tactic in these parts to deny the authorship of their own leaflets and to plead ignorance as to who might have been responsible for their publication.  They did it no less than three times in Isleworth ward alone at the 2002 local elections.Of course, the more often it is used the less believable it becomes.  My own records are freely available to anybody who should need them to establish a history of improper conduct on the part of the New Labour election team.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

Nonsense.  I have no political axe to grind here.  Why shouldn't you answer a simple question regardless of the way I vote.  You are so very rude and arrogant.Would it make you more comfortable if I ask the question of Mr Northcote and Mr Dakers too?

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

Answer my question please.

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

It shouldn't matter what my political leanings are.  As a resident of this consitituency I have a right to know who gives final approval for election propaganda  by all parties. I asked a reasonable question.  It reflects badly on him if he can't answer.  What has he got to hide by refusing to answer?

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

AlanAnd the only reason that Conal is a Liberal Democrat is that he believes that party's policies to be essentially right and yours to be wrong.This may be difficult for a New Labour apparatchik to grasp but some of us choose a political allegiance to suit our opinions, as opposed to changing our opinions to conform with a political allegiance.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

You twist the truth as usual Phil. Have you not learned from your very poor election result? The public is not interested in your type of politics.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

ConalThe only reasosn you are asking me the question is becasue of the political axe you have to grind.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

"if you're not a Nu Labour supporter or at the very least communist inclined..."MoragI would agree with the sentiments, although as I pointed out on another thread there is little politically to link the Nu Lab project with socialism, let alone communism.  Just look at the man they have chosen for their closest international ally - George Dubya Bush!This is the party whose praises Alan Sheerins is "proud" of (his words).  It takes a certain type of person to be proud of the wanton slaughter of over 100,000 innocent men, women and children on the back of a lie.The organisational similarities, of course, are another matter.  One only has to observe the way in which these people behave at local council level and within the community to recognise that their methodology, as well as their attitude towards their fellow human beings, is essentially Stalinist.They have retained everything that is bad about socialism and have jettisoned all its good points.  If I could design my own indentikit opponent which would epitomise everything I loathe about politics today I believe I would come up with something very akin indeed to the New Labour Party, and its identikit leader would be Tony Bliar.  They really do deserve each other.

Phil Andrews ● 7283d

Conal I would have thought by now that you would have grasped the fact, if you're not a Nu Labour supporter or at the very least communist inclined; you warrant little or no civility from any of the Nu Lab supporters. Why should you think that Mr.Sherrins is any different from the rest of the rank and file?

Morag Campbell Hawick ● 7283d

What? How rude are you?  Does it matter where my political inclinations sit?  I am a member of the public and I have asked you a reasonable question.  You could be decent and answer me, instead you have to be rude and arrogant.Why won't you say?

Conal Stewart ● 7283d

ConalYou are a Liberal Democrat member / supporter. I am quote happy to engage with you on issues of political interest.  You already know the answer to this i do not want to engage in trivia. Please up the standard a bit.

Alan Sheerins ● 7283d

ConalAnn doesn't look at them, Alan doesn't look at them.  Even the people who distribute Labour Party leaflets do so without having read them first or knowing what is contained in them.  This is a matter of public record, and Alan and his people actually BRAG about it!!

Phil Andrews ● 7283d