Forum Topic

Council Launch Crackdown On Litter Louts And Fly Tipping

Very welcome of course. Only a cynic would point out the proximity of local elections.

Andy Herrick ● 2883d62 Comments

I also reported this a couple of weeks ago Vanessa and Cllr Lambert is aware of it of course even though its not his ward

Paul Fisher ● 2865d

Hounslow named as one of the five worst London boroughs for fly tipping, but when they (Housing) allow their own contractors to do it - are we surprised? Rubble and old wood etc. still in our rear access road, reported twice now.

Vanessa Smith ● 2865d

Sometimes it is very obviously the same households.  We discoverd this when using www.fixmystreet.com to report fly-tipping and there were a group of neighbours complaining about the dumped waste on the street outside one particular property.  It is difficult when people have mattresses to dispose of, no money and no car.  There were Housing Associations who weren't managing their properties well enough.  They should be able to do better but may need more Council help.

Philippa Bond ● 2866d

"How can you say "nobody quite understands"?"I was relying on the research for the BBC article I linked to which says:"But what's behind the increase in fly-tipping in the first place?Unfortunately, that's a much harder question to answer.According to the National Fly-Tipping Prevention Group, financial gains (or savings) are the main motivations for fly-tipping.Others factors include "laziness and an attitude that someone else will clear up the waste"."To be candid, I think the problem round here is partly to do with the council looking to reduce the reliance on landfill by putting pressure on households to reduce their general waste, and too many people deciding they can't be bothered with recycling when they think they can get away with dumping black bags on the street. We also believe part of the problem (mainly furniture and mattresses) is irresponsible private landlords. Of course there's another problem with unscrupulous professional flytippers.Hounslow was certainly bad in 2009 and Keep Britain Tidy reported that we had risen from the bottom quartile to the top quartile by 2016 (I think).To be honest, my monitoring is largely informal - I cycle round the ward, observe and report - though I'm also now receiving a monthly report on enforcement activities (I have asked for more detail but don't have it as yet) and occasional updates on level of flytipping pickups from H Highways. Again. we should probably be getting more and better data and publishing it - and I've pledged to work to  make this happen if re-elected.

Guy Lambert ● 2866d

It is also important to learn more about the alleged 600 odd people per month who have been fined for littering.  How many for littering and how many for fly tipping? Young urban males or? How many locals and how many from out of the borough? Is the fly tipping being done by lazy householders or by professionals who are contracted to decorate and renovate and instead of paying to take stuff to the dump they fly tip in Hounslow borough? Does the Council have statistics on the reasons given for the fly tipping which the criminals may have offered on mitigation?  Can the Council explain why littering and fly tipping has increased so dramatically under this administration?

Steve Taylor ● 2866d

Guy,How can you say "nobody quite understands"?On 15th March I posted this:"I found this study commissioned by the CPRE:http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/energy-and-waste/litter-and-fly-tipping/item/1919-litterbugs-how-to-deal-with-the-problem-of-littering?highlight=WyJsaXR0ZXJidWdzIl0=(If the link doesn't work search for "Litterbugs - How to Deal with the Problem of Littering")I've just had a quick read and note that both Hounslow and Ealing appear in the worst 10 borough (2009)."If you read the document you will find a wealth of research into the extent and possible causes of littering. For example:"It is generally young urban males who lack a sense of community attachment and they are also more likely to be among the significant minority of the population who drop litter. In this respect littering is symptomatic of a broader failure to engage with these members of society. This would help to explain why measures to reduce antisocial behaviour have also improved the quality of local environments. There is a compelling case to target these groups of young urban males, not only in order to reduce litter, but also to maximise wider social benefits."You wrote:"everybody in a senior position in the council - officers and members - should be monitoring effectiveness, and they do so"How is this done? What reports are produced to inform officers and members, how are these actioned?Election soon - I'll be interested to hear what the other parties have to say.

Andy Herrick ● 2866d

???

Steve Taylor ● 2866d

So what do you think of Richmond's plastics page?:https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/waste_and_recycling/plastic_recycling/pass_on_plastic

Philippa Bond ● 2867d

It isn't 600 odd tickets a month. That's a lie. If you look at the alleged figures for Jan and Feb the average falls well short of 600 'odd'. Go figure.

Steve Taylor ● 2867d

And so he shouldn't be happy. He should hang his head in shame !! He has turned Hounslow into the most disgusting smelly rubbish dump in Europe. Why can't he pick up the phone and ask Richmond how to do the job?

Steve Taylor ● 2867d

Paul.The last time I attended a Residents Assoc Forum at the Civic Centre, when the subject of Waste + recycling came up Councillor Mann got shouted out of the chamber by the delegates, not a happy man that day.

Robin Dickers ● 2867d

Why do you try and recycle plastic that isn't recyclable?Why are you buying it and then expecting the Council to dispose of it?Don't!I know another borough which only recycles tins and plastic bottles in their recycling collection. You get pots, tubs and trays in LBH - without the film covers. The carrier bag charge is there for a reason - dissuade people from using them.  And your recycling collection is weekly - whereas many other places have fortnightly residual waste collections, and some every three weeks and one place at least is contemplating monthly.Why are you making so much waste?  What attempts have you made to REDuce it?

Philippa Bond ● 2867d

Cllr Mann is to blame full stop

Paul Fisher ● 2868d

It’s inevitable the fly tipping is going to increase.The council orders & imposes small wheelie bins on us that take a couple of black bags & won’t take away any more put to the side if we have them. They then change to 2 weekly collections saying we must recycle more. They then change the rules again & won’t take half of our plastic recycling & tell us to put it into the black bags so now we’re back to where we started, with nowhere to put it? The old Tidy Town collection is still available but costs £55 & they are very picky. So who’s to blame!

Robin Dickers ● 2868d

Well, I think everybody in a senior position in the council - officers and members - should be monitoring effectiveness, and they do so.There's no doubt that flytipping has increased in Hounslow recently and I was merely pointing up that this seems to be a national issue that nobody quite understands.The response in Hounslow has been to ramp up enforcement action over the last year or so and to ramp up publicity about enforcement very recently. Obviously we're hoping this will reverse the trend and other actions are likely to follow, probably new approaches as well as persuasion of the perpetrators, both carrot and stick.

Guy Lambert ● 2868d

Guy,You wrote earlier "600 odd tickets per month sounds like action to me"and now you write"...flytipping, which seems to be getting worse everywhere"So we may conclude that the 600 tickets per month is not working as a way of reducing littering and fly tipping.Is there anyone in the council whose job it is to understand this and monitor the effectiveness of policies? If so where can we find their output? If not, why not?

Andy Herrick ● 2868d

From that article"Fly-tipping costs taxpayer £58m in clean-up costsFly-tipping prosecutions at record low in England"????

Steve Taylor ● 2868d

On the contrary - Hounslow Highways are strongly motivated as picking up flytips is pure cost to them with no revenue - from their point of view they are obliged to offer free service (in that if there was no flytipping they'd get paid the same)It's in everybody's interests to reduce flytipping, which seems to be getting worse everywhere http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42689357

Guy Lambert ● 2868d

Looks like money for old rope.  Where is the incentive to catch the fly-tippers so that they don't carry on fly-tipping?  You don't want to be picking up fly-tips that are coming from all over West London!

Philippa Bond ● 2868d

"it's all covered as part of the fixed fee for the Highways pfi so whilst it would be untrue to say it doesn't cost anything, there is no additional cost to the council however many are picked up."OK but currently they are working 7 days a week to clear the fly-tipping so overtime rates are being paid. Does the council have a timeline to reduce the fixed fee if the overtime can be cancelled?  Assume if the fining and hopefully imprisonment of fly tippers increases, it will deter others and reduce the problem ten-fold?

Steve Taylor ● 2868d

So what if any is the incentive to reduce the number of fly-tips picked up?  It seems to me that that is an easy job, the following up of which is more difficult especially getting evidence together for a prosecution so you can imagine the frustration when there is evidence there. HH have other jobs to do as part of that PFI which perhaps require more skill and overseeing. (Memories of planting done by obviously more knowledgeable gardeners than HH employees being destroyed.)  When will residents be allowed to plant bulbs under the trees without HH spraying poisonous and controversial weedkiller around them?

Philippa Bond ● 2869d

It's all covered as part of the fixed fee for the Highways pfi so whilst it would be untrue to say it doesn't cost anything, there is no additional cost to the council however many are picked up.

Guy Lambert ● 2869d

How many fly-tipped items are cleared per month and how much does it cost to clear them?

Steve Taylor ● 2869d

600 odd tickets per month sounds like action to me

Guy Lambert ● 2869d

"I am sure that culprits were in the past named and shamed both on the Council website and also the Hounslow Chronicle"Yes indeed, the current administration is paying lip service to the problem. All talk and no action. No crackdown has been launched. The Council seems unsure about what it can or cannot legally do. 

Steve Taylor ● 2869d

I am sure that culprits were in the past named and shamed both on the Council website and also the Hounslow Chronicle

Paul Fisher ● 2870d

Unfortunately for any innocent and ignorant (in the true sense of the word) little old lady feeding the pigeons she was likely to make a better story for the papers - which does of course draw attention to the problems better than a warning letter.

Philippa Bond ● 2870d

"There may be data protection (or other) concerns  about posting names"Isn't this something the Council should know or should find out if it is really serious about "Launching a Crackdown" ?  If mugshots of criminals guilty of other offences are published on social media and news media, why not Fly tippers?  The crime does, after all,  demand a custodial sentence too! "Andy- remind me after 3 May if I survive - send me an email to get me going!"As a wannabe Councillor after 3 May, don't you yet have a 'to do' list rather than rely on constituents to remind you of your pledges and duties? 

Steve Taylor ● 2870d

Unfortunately it was generally felt that the company engaged only prosecuted and fined the easy ones (and probably unknowing and accidental ones) when a warning notice would have been far better and prosecution kept for repeat offenders.

Philippa Bond ● 2870d

LBE used to put CCTV footage on their website showing fly-tippers dumping waste.  I haven't seen any recently.Sometimes you will see information on the websites following court cases.  You will also see articles on these in Get West London.In LBE there was a Streetwatchers group who used to put notices on flytips marking them out as flytips and illegal and that the perps if caught could be fined thousands as well as reporting these flytips to the Council.  This also may make anybody who sees the flytip realise that it HAS BEEN NOTICED AND ISN'T ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR (a big problem is people just walking past and turning a blind eye).  When the Council engaged a company to clear them and fine they forgot to notify the Streetwatchers.

Philippa Bond ● 2870d

The main problem with rubbish being left on the streets is that who ever dumping the bags are removing I.D from the rubbish before dumping. i.e. Names, addresses account codes.

David Squire ● 2871d

Well there's an incentive to vote for you!I proposed a subset of data items to include on the posters (date, road, fine) however, trying to show off my IT credentials I enclosed these in angle brackets which I suspect have been interpreted by browsers as HTML tags. So, no names - unless data protection allows it.

Andy Herrick ● 2871d

There may be data protection (or other) concerns  about posting names but I do agree with the idea even if it was simply '5 people from Bloggs Street fined last month' .Andy- remind me after 3 May if I survive - send me an email to get me going!

Guy Lambert ● 2871d

The lists of fines and mugshots of the criminals should also be posted on the Council website and published in local media / social media.

Steve Taylor ● 2872d

Guy,Great to hear you are willing to champion this. I'd be happy to lend a hand too if you need anyone to do legwork (I used to be in the Information team at West Mid so have some understanding of data)There is a government initiative on this - the Local Government Transparency Code 2015 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/local-government-transparency-code-2015)which is the obvious place to start.In addition to Bristol I've found Winchester - http://www.winchester.gov.uk/about/access-to-dataPeterborough - https://www.peterborough.gov.uk/council/council-data/and I've found nothing like this at the Hounslow web site.As a suggestion on the litter front - I have a hypothesis that the rate of fining is unimportant if litterers are unaware that others have been caught. I did a back of the envelope calculation to show that the average fining rate is about 3 per mile per month in Hounslow, which means that the chance of witnessing someone being fined is low. I expect this is unevenly distributed so some areas will hardly ever see anyone being fined.I've had the idea for a while that if a regularly refreshed list of fines is made visible (e.g. attached to a lamppost) in heavily littered areas it may dissuade potential litterers - it may not, but a carefully designed citizen led trial could establish this at little cost to the council. I see volunteers using the litter data to print out and fix the posters (say) weekly. Posters would be something like this:"Most people dispose of their litter properly - near here  x number of people were fined last month"Followed by list:,,

Andy Herrick ● 2872d

Iris, I think that perhaps you haven't understood that the land we are talking about is Hounslow Housing land and as such is their responsibility. No-one would expect the council to clear land for private owners.

Vanessa Smith ● 2874d

The seems to be a lot we don't know.  What we do know is that 582 fines were issues in Jan and 354 in Feb = total 936. At average £65 per fine we would have collected £60,840 in two months. That is assuming the fines were all paid. Does the Council have this info to share? There seems to be a huge discrepancy in the Leaders Headline claim that around 800 on-the-spot fines PER MONTH of up to £400 are issued by the council’s enforcement team every month. This claim is quite misleading and seems to be very far from the truth.Can the Council provide figures on what it is costing us to issue these fines per month  and what the cost per month is to clear and dispose of the fly-tipped rubbish. i.e. Are we winning the war or just paying lip service to the problem and what exactly is the cost to the taxpayer.The reason I have asked about areas the fly tipping happens is because it would be important to learn if the 'hotspots' are being addressed by installing surveillance cameras.  What is the cost to install and operate cameras.Again these questions are important because good citizens are regularly reporting repeat offender areas but nothing seems to be done to catch the criminals and punish them to the full extent of the law.  i.e. the law allows for a custodial sentence. Why have no fly tippers been imprisoned?  If the Council cannot address these issues, can the Leader and Environment Lead Member really claim to be launching a 'crackdown' on litter louts or is it just words? 

Steve Taylor ● 2874d

You're right, I'm sure, and no, I don't think such an initiative is around in Hounslow.I recently heard of this in Bristol:https://opendata.bristol.gov.uk/explore/I have just written to Bristol to open a dialogue, so yes, I think this would be good to do, though obviously need to understand the issues/hurdles, and will happily champion it if I'm still here after May 3rd!

Guy Lambert ● 2875d

Guy,I imagine that somewhere in the depths of Hounslow's databases is a data set recording each fine, it's date, location, amount fined etc.All data like this (e.e that is available by FoI) ought to be online and accessible to anyone. I believe this kind of initiative has been tried in various cities around the world, and it can lead to an explosion in creative applications of the data and genuine citizen involvement - and save your time in answering requests like this.Are you aware of any such initiative in Hounslow? If not, would you be prepared to look into it and be a champion?

Andy Herrick ● 2875d

I've no idea. Hopefully someone reported the flytip, and I think it's fairly routine to seek a culprit - the number of fines tells a story.I think £80 is the standard fine - up to £400 for big dumps or persistent offenders.

Guy Lambert ● 2875d

Also were the Council Contractors issued with a fine?

Paul Fisher ● 2875d

"Actually the 582 fines were for the month of January. February saw 354 -"Thank you for that - interesting figures and not too shabby although I guess it depends on how many incidents of fly-tipping were reported during the same periods so that we can get a handle on if the problem is being defeated or getting worse.  Would also be interesting to know about the £400 fines the Councils claims have been issued. How do they decide on the value of the fine. And I guess a lot of people would be interested to know in which Hounslow Wards these fines have been issued.

Steve Taylor ● 2875d

Actually the 582 fines were for the month of January. February saw 354 - less because of staff sickness etc (plus a short month). Fines vary but £80 is typical (£65 if paid within 7 days)

Guy Lambert ● 2876d

Fines have been issued. 582 as at the end of February.I don't have them by area or value but have enquired if that's available.

Guy Lambert ● 2876d

"Can a Councillor tell us where these fines have been issued (which specific areas) and what the sliding scale of fines equates to in real terms. What is the max, what is the min and how many of each category?"As predicted. No answer forthcoming so the figures are all nonsense. It is doubtful that any fines have been issued.

Steve Taylor ● 2876d

So who is going to clear up after, fine and/or prosecute the Hounslow Homes Contractors?  Residents and Council Tax Payers want the Council to be setting a good example!

Philippa Bond ● 2879d

Hounslow Highways are not allowed to go onto private land to remove rubbish. It is the responsibility of the land owner/householder - which is presumably why Hounslow Homes were "helpful". It is Hounslow Highways who are issuing the fines and getting heavy on fly tipping. So I guess that if HH remove rubbish from the public highway, and it is dumped by Hounslow Council contractors, then some interesting discussions would be taking place! There has been an increase in fly tipping since the Council moved the goalposts and HH are having to divert staff from other jobs to pick up fly tips

Iris Hill ● 2879d

You have to hope that the price quoted was for the whole job ie including the safe and legal removal and disposal of the waste.

Philippa Bond ● 2881d

Our assoc had exactly the same problem re: not on the Highway. We also after much buck passing found someone very sensible at H Homes who was on this planet.Cherish & praise them, they are a very rare commodity in this borough.

Robin Dickers ● 2881d

I agree that Hounslow Highways are very quick at removing dumped stuff. However, trying to get Hounslow council to understand when the land where the dumping has taken place is NOT public highway but housing land and that Hounslow Highways will not remove it, is another game entirely. Thankfully the housing department have one sensible and efficient lady who completely 'gets it' and does do a wonderful job, she should - in my humble opinion be running the council - she is a star.

Vanessa Smith ● 2881d

The Council boast of 800 fines of 'up to' £400 being issues.  Can a Councillor tell us where these fines have been issued (which specific areas) and what the sliding scale of fines equates to in real terms. What is the max, what is the min and how many of each category? The Law also allows for imprisonment of fly-tippers. Can a Councillor provide details imprisonments of these criminals over the last year?

Steve Taylor ● 2881d

I've seen lots of those nets on boxes in Brentford too.  Most of the households on South Ealing Road seem to have them when I walk past.

Paul Scullion ● 2882d

I found this study commissioned by the CPRE:http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/energy-and-waste/litter-and-fly-tipping/item/1919-litterbugs-how-to-deal-with-the-problem-of-littering?highlight=WyJsaXR0ZXJidWdzIl0=(If the link doesn't work search for "Litterbugs - How to Deal with the Problem of Littering")I've just had a quick read and note that both Hounslow and Ealing appear in the worst 10 borough (2009).

Andy Herrick ● 2882d

We also spoke to the resident Vanessa who said that it was the Council contractors who dumped the rubbish in the access rdI wonder if the Council will now prosecute their own workers and set an example to the rest of us?Somehow I just know this will be collected quietly and with minimal fuss

Paul Fisher ● 2882d

and LB Richmond upon Thames also have nets to cover boxes as you can buy them online.Read what proactive Richmond are doing about plastic:https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/waste_and_recycling/plastic_recycling

Philippa Bond ● 2882d

Just exactly why are you so negative about LBH's recycling?Here's what they have been doing in Wales - it's not that different:  http://www.collectionsblueprint.wales/content/system-ailgylchu-trolibocs

Philippa Bond ● 2882d

If you think that East of the borough is bad, try going to Cranford via Hounslow & Hounslow West, as I did last week on the top deck of a bus. You do get a great view of your surroundings & believe me from the High St to Cranford the place is one big Tip, absolutely disgusting. I couldn’t wait to get back to Isleworth where at least we have some semblance of cleansing by the council.

Robin Dickers ● 2882d

Sub contractor I would not be surprised. I read where somebody put all their rubbish into an old caravan. Next they towed it to a lay by and torched it.

Nicholas Beard ● 2882d

How's this for a joke? Rubbish left in our rear access road from a garden fence repair consisting of old wood, plastic bags and some rubble. My husband spoke to the householder who informed him it was the housing department who had done the repair and just dumped the stuff! You really couldn't make this up.......................

Vanessa Smith ● 2882d

Where are the officers who are going to be out and about enforcing this? You can make grand statements until the cows come home but unless you have feet out on the ground they won't work.

Vanessa Smith ● 2883d

I like it, although it does appear to be moving the problem from the high street to the surrounding areas.  Twice in the last week I've had to pick up a half eaten fast food meal with wrappings, boxes and drink cartons that was thrown over my garden wall.  Third attempt didn't appear to go all that well as the rubbish ended up all over the street.  Hope the offender got covered in ketchup and fizzy pop from the rebound.

Lorne Gifford ● 2883d

Or that the Council have caused this issue in the first place with their recycling disaster

Paul Fisher ● 2883d