Forum Topic

Brexit

Good idea for a thread, I thought, what do people reckon? Is Brexit actually going as badly as it seems? Are the right politicians managing the process? While they do have their flaws (Boris and his mates) it wouldn't be easy whoever was negotiating... That said, some of them do seem quite self interested... though all politicians are, no doubt!

Benjamin Inwood ● 2818d150 Comments

it's hardly fair to knock the ignorance of many of the British public when the abysmal ignorance of so many Brexiteer politicians has been on show to the world. I'm being charitable here, assuming wilful ignorance rather than deliberate lying.

Sue Rowe ● 2747d

My mind goes back about five years when I was talking to a young man who said, "Nick you know a lot about politics do you think we will ever join the EU"? When you think that later on he would be called on to partake in the referendum!!!!!!!!

Nicholas Beard ● 2748d

Most people I talk to have no interest in the economy and in their own words dont understand it. One said to me they voted for brexit because IT WAS TIME FOR A CHANGE. I replied "oh yes". You address lack of brainpower. A brave statement but of course correct. Stockpile food drugs and blood products and we voted for this. I cannot think of a word for it. I am lost for words.

Nicholas Beard ● 2748d

I guess if Bloomberg looked at what newspapers the majority in this country read and what TV programs get the highest viewing ratings, he wouldn't be so amazed. Likewise, Cameron should have recognised the lack of brainpower of the majority before he allowed a referendum on such a complex issue. Surely he realised that the question we were asked to consider for our referendum vote was quite insulting to many of us because it was so simplistic.

Steve Taylor ● 2748d

People still want it. The pound touched £1.11 against the euro people did not care. Brexit must mean Brext they recite. I asked can you name me a country trading under WTO rules without any trade deals. No response only Brexit must mean Brexit. Bloomberg says he is amazed that a country doing so well as we were would want to wreck their economy. So there we are!

Nicholas Beard ● 2748d

In 2017, the Brexit (Tory) Party only got about 42% of the vote and lost their majority. That is a full on national poll, called on the premise of implementing the "will of the people".My point is although Brexit got just under 52% in 2016, the party supposed to implement it only got 42% in 2017. How does the older 52% still hold up when more recent 42% vote was cast in light of much more information on what Brexit might mean, especially when the Tories are now drifting to the mid to high 30's in opinion polling?Where did all the Brexit voters go in 2017? If they really still wanted it, they would have voted for it in 2017, but did not. On that basis I think there is a case to be made that the Brexit vote has already been superceded by a more recent poll and Brexit lost 42% to 58%

Christopher Gillie ● 2748d

No they can't. Not seriously anyway. The ones who do still claim it are just the  'Court Jesters'  and fools.

Steve Taylor ● 2748d

As the 'Will of the people' argument is still regularly being used to defend Brexit, even with the prospect of no deal approaching, some of you may find this interesting:It is now 763 days since the EU referendum. 763 days is also the time between the UK's last two general elections. Given the substantial differences between the results of those elections, can anyone seriously still claim the result of a 763 day old vote is 'The will of the people'?

Ian Fillingham ● 2748d

I would not hold my breath on that actually being implemented. It can take many years if not decades for trade deals to get completed.  This announcement was more of a tactical measure to suspend tariff increases on the EU while Trump focuses more on escalating a trade war on China. I think he wants to avoid fighting both at once.In answer to your question, the UK special deal remains as illusory as ever.

Christopher Gillie ● 2748d

Trump wants zero tarriffs with the eu. I wonder where that leaves the uk special deal.

Nicholas Beard ● 2749d

Just read Ferrovial is moving its HQ out of the UK because of Brexit. Will one of the gains from brexit be more people claiming Jobseekers. Funny how Boris and co don't comment on a story like this. Its not project fear its happening.

Nicholas Beard ● 2778d

BMW issue a warning about Brexit. In April Rolls Royce told the Express there would be no redundancies in Derby. Now two months later 4600 planned two new offices in Germany. Of course redundancy is cheap here due to our EU opt out. We have the most productive Airbus plant but no good the goverment ruin it and drag down the pound.

Nicholas Beard ● 2782d

It is true that Rolls Royce have set up a centre in Brandenburg called Rolls Royce Germany. Subsidised part by the German government.

Nicholas Beard ● 2782d

At least one Tory MP isn't sure whether to believe this, and is seeking reassurance that it isn't true from Cabinet:https://twitter.com/GeorgeFreemanMP/status/1010060496572243968

Ian Fillingham ● 2782d

Momentum’s official opposition to Brexit could set in motion a chain of events which sees Labour follow suit. Corbin is now under intense pressure to fully support another Brexit referendum and Momentum will be educating the labour supporters on how ridiculous and bad for the UK Brexit will be. Sounds like a plan!  Something the weak and wobbly May hasn't got.

Steve Taylor ● 2782d

Vauxhall at Liverpool does not look too good after 2021. Why are not the government ministers who support Brexit telling these companies to go.

Nicholas Beard ● 2783d

Well another announcement this time by Airbus. Jobs will go. May leave UK altogether. Is this good for our economy?

Nicholas Beard ● 2783d

Did you see in the papers anout those young people who did not know about brexit or the EU? This is how our MP's get away with it. I have spoken to people and they say its me, our MP' are doing a good job. Its the EU at fault

Nicholas Beard ● 2791d

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/failing-the-nation-the-shame-of-our-cowardly-mps_uk_5b1a343de4b0253c28270706

Steve Taylor ● 2791d

The famous brexiter N Lawson has applied for French residency it is alleged. With current events today can someone in the government explain what sort of trade deal we can expect with the USA.

Nicholas Beard ● 2804d

Well Barclays is tightening lending to the UK enconomy which is lagging behind the REST OF THE WORLD which is not helped because of brexit. Is this fake news and why has Boris not condemned them.

Nicholas Beard ● 2804d

On June 23rd I shall not be celebrating Brexit but will be celebrating our democracy with some French cheese and German Beers. I wish you all well whatever side you are on. :)

Steve Allum ● 2805d

In the EU referendum there was a 71% electorate turnout. The highest since the 1997 general election. In 2010 there was a 65% turnout with the Libdems getting 22% of the vote. They went and formed a coalition government and that was democratic as well in my opinion. Just saying.

Steve Allum ● 2805d

Yes, but now we should be entitled to a £1 billion rebate. We can start using this to build our own system here creating new jobs. It's gonna be tough when we leave due to the fact they're making it tough. It's really school playground stuff now... "you're not playing with our satalite!"Such a shame.

Steve Allum ● 2806d

A UK pensioner gets £164 a week pension. 1.2 million Greek pensioners get £108 a week. Although they have certain health care provision it is nothing like our NHS. Also with youth unemployment running at nearly 50% half the population won't even be entitled to that when they're older. There will also be another cut set for 2019. The Greek government begged for a better deal for their debt to be told the German tax payers wouldn't ever except it.I'm not saying either are in the wrong but just high lighting why the EU doesn't work for everyone. .When Greece joined the Euro they were given lots of advances by the EU central bank. What did they buy? Mainly Weapons and German cars.

Steve Allum ● 2806d

I agree with you. To cap it all it now appears the tresurey and the BOE have fallen out. Hammond wants us to follow the EU on bank governance and the BOE says that will make them just a rule taker.

Nicholas Beard ● 2806d

It's a bit hard to be forward looking when half of the people have voted to take us back 50 years!

Ian Fillingham ● 2806d

We need to get some deals as well. Germany a €5 billion gas pipeline deal with Russia. France a £35 billion deal with Australia for nuclear submarines they fought off Japan and Germany. Solar panels  for India and a complete metro. Dubai a complete metro. The Austailian PM was on TV and he said the uk was important to Australia but must come second to the agreement they are working on with the EU. We dont hear about anything we are signing.

Nicholas Beard ● 2807d

We signed a legally binding agreement on Galileo at the set up. We cannot share certain sensitive legal data as a third country. If Cameron did not tell people this before the referendum its clearly not the EU's fault.

Nicholas Beard ● 2807d

The youth should be also made aware of social benefits and pensions in these countries as well. We have the worst state pension of these countries. We dont get earnings related unemployment benefit. We opted out of redundancy payments set by the EU.

Nicholas Beard ● 2807d

I agree with your sentiment here! We need to be forward looking.

Steve Allum ● 2807d

I think you will find that they said we wouldn't be able to use the satalite. Why would we want to pay for something that they won't allow us to use. The EU drive a hard bargain.

Steve Allum ● 2807d

As long as the 16-17 year olds are made aware about youth unemployment (15-24) in the EU. Greece 43.7%, Spain 36%, Italy 31.5%, France 21.7%. UK is 12.4% but in fairness Germany is 6.6%.

Steve Allum ● 2807d

BA is part of IAG which is foreign owned. Easy Jet are forming an HQ in Austria etc. This is so they can continue to operate post Brexit. Ryan Air are going to mark their tickets with a special note is case they are stopped from flying.

Nicholas Beard ● 2807d

Yes, but post brexit will there be Spanish people on the plane? Surely we'll have British planes for British passengers, nothing foreign on there (apart from the French made blue passports, of course!)

Ian Fillingham ● 2807d

Its the EU law that binds airlines to pay compensation for delays to EU CITIZENS. For european destinations only. And it was publicised widely that post BREXIT airlines will only compensate EU citizens. Same as mobile phones. British companies will be free to bring back roaming charges after brexit. Also brits will need an international driving licence and a green card.

Nicholas Beard ● 2808d

I was thinking about Stanstead yesterday and how Brexit will effect such situations. Post brexit Brits will no longer be entitled to compensation for delays. Imgagine a Brit who voted for BREXIT sitting next to a Spanish and finding out the Spanish person was in line for say €200 for each member of his family while the Brit would get zero.How did you work that out?

Bernard Allen ● 2808d

I was thinking about Stanstead yesterday and how Brexit will effect such situations. Post brexit Brits will no longer be entitled to compensation for delays. Imgagine a Brit who voted for BREXIT sitting next to a Spanish and finding out the Spanish person was in line for say €200 for each member of his family while the Brit would get zero.

Nicholas Beard ● 2808d

I am glad you voted on the basis of real problems in the EU. You at least have identified real flaws in the EU instead of falling for the more illusory arguments.These problems are not unique to the EU though. There are plenty of "closed shops" in this country as well, whereby people get paid huge amounts to do a mediocre job, and agriculture is unfairly subsidised the world over.For me, the perfect is the enemy of the good. While I accept the EU is flawed in many ways, leaving the EU will not make it any better, or the UK any better off. All we do is lose our voice in trying to improve it, whilst making ourselves poorer.

Christopher Gillie ● 2808d

I voted for Brexit. I have always hated the closed shop EU for many years.  I think it is a totally corrupt closed shop for a group of rich countries which allows people who are not elected on enormous salaries and pensions to make laws which cannot be changed by elected politicians. The EU Fishing policy is a total disgrace hugely detrimental to the fishing stocks and livelihoods.  The EU Farming Policy with subsidies for very rich has been a disgrace for years.  Just go to the Caribbean and see the detrimental effect the EU has had on farming and livelihood of the people in those islands.  To say that people were ignorant of the changes that need to made (exit single market etc) is insulting to say the least.

Nada Salisbury ● 2808d

VanessaThe latest madness. We dont want to pay for Galilao post bexit. Hammond says we should develop our own GPS system with our own satelites. Who is going to launch them for us? Pay a fortune when we are in the middle of austerity!!!!  There would be the American, EU and ours. With max fac it would be cheaper to stop in the EU the costs are mounting at an alarming rate.

Nicholas Beard ● 2808d

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/

Vanessa Smith ● 2809d

It clearly was a less mad option. I do feel sorry for the small business men if we have max fac. I cannot understand why Boris favours it. I mean he has a business I understand. There is worse to come I think. Read about Rees Mogg and North Somerset Asset Management and where it is investing. Even Trump has banned investment there.

Nicholas Beard ● 2809d

There is no thought "process" with Brexiteers, just a gut feeling fuelled by xenophobia, fuelled in turn by the Daily Bile.Immediately after the vote, I toyed with the idea of a London Independence Party, or perhaps getting London to become part of Scotland, and jointly leaving the UK in order to stay in the EU. It seemed like a less mad option than Brexit.

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

Steve its even worse. They were interviewing Nissan workers and the interviewer said if Brexit were to go ahead Nissan could leave the UK. How would you feel about losing your job which pays ABOVE average? Most said it was worth it. One said we lost ship building here so losing motor manufacturing does not matter. Well when you are up against views like that!!!!  I wonder what is the thought process.

Nicholas Beard ● 2809d

Interesting that the people of Sunderland were the first to declare overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit because of their dislike of foreigners yet Nissan claim to be proud of 37 nationalities working there. Just where were these peoples' heads ?"Nissan is diverse at every level. We have over 37 nationalities at our global headquarters alone and we believe it is our diverse workforce that makes us interesting. We thrive off new thinking and differing perspectives. That is why we encourage and take full advantage of mixed backgrounds, genders, nationalities, ages and lifestyles. The unique personalities found within our Nissan communities around the world make us powerful.  At Nissan Sunderland (NMUK) we are rightly proud of our North East location and the thriving culture that this brings.  Some of the friendliest people in the world walk through our doors every day and it is this that makes for a warm and supportive working environment."

Steve Taylor ● 2809d

We often hear how post Brexit, how AI is going to help us lead in the world. Well I have just been learning about VIVATECH2018 in Paris. There is an influx of 100 African countries. We dont hear anything about it here or not much. I remember mobile phones and how we were going to lead the world in the technolgy, well we all know how that ended up. The government goes on about car production here, but its not actually us its foreign companies. I see Renault has bought Nissan. All the time I read about how wonderful it will be post Brexit but in reality all the government does is make it harder for these companies that are producing.

Nicholas Beard ● 2809d

Yes and we could have had blue passports all along.

Nicholas Beard ● 2809d

Given the lack of leave voters, I would like to pretend to be one:British jobs for British people (Thanks Gordon Brown, that is not at all xenophobic, racist or bigoted)Blue PassportsPassports made in France£350m a week for the NHS (probably only £150m-£200 net) £320-380m a week extra trade costs (HMRC)51.9 to 48.1% is such a clear majority, and allows a government that failed to win a majority in 2017 to implement it and do whatever it likes, because that is "democracy"

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

"You're right, Brexit is divisive, someone should step in and put a stop to it."100% kudos - I like it

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

My understanding is that Euratom do not only regulate power stations, but also things like medical use of radioactive elements for things like cancer treatments.

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

Its the Toronto agreement which is not an EU or WTO thing. The UK has had total lack of thought on this and it means UK airlines are busy "relocating " (for jurisdiction and tax purposes) so that they are 100% sure they can keep flying. Another example of the invisible drip drip effect of tax erosion and future poverty.

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

Increased trade barriers and customs shenanigans will make trade harder and everyone poorer.On the upside we can (like croatia) have French made blue passports.

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

The Netherlands and Switzerland are famously internationalist and free traders. Brexit risks us developing tunnel vision. If is has to go ahead (and I have to say I wish it did not), we need to be super-non-insular, super-non-racist, super-non-xenophobic and super-welcoming to people outside the UK in order to not become much poorer.We cannot go back to the 1960's post empire trade model as everyone else has moved on. If it is indeed necessary to discard the seamless trade arrangement with the world's richest market, be had better get busy with the rest of the world.

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

Saturday 23rd June 2018 - March on Parliament SquareSave the date! Britain for Europe is planning a march on Parliament Square in London two years after the EU referendum. “This will be a collaborative event in which with one voice and one aim we make clear to the country that Brexit must be stopped” says organisers.

Bernard Allen ● 2809d

Ooops - Typo - 23rd of June!

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

If anyone is interested in doing something to help stop (or at least blunt) Brexit, there is a march being organised by the Liberal Democrats on the 26th of June:https://www.libdems.org.uk/march-for-europe-18

Christopher Gillie ● 2809d

Had Cameron allowed Brits overseas the vote as well. Also the Max Fac Boris backs will incur a £32.50 registration charge per shipment (HM CUSTOMS FIGURE GIVEN TO THE BREXIT COMMITTEE). Small business men are really worried. Also there was a programme on RT where they visited the border in Ireland. My goodness it was grim, surley talking to the people each side of the border is not project fear.

Nicholas Beard ● 2809d

Had the Muppet cameron allowed16 yr. olds to vote we wouldn't now be in this unholy mess.What constantly annoys me is the insistence by Brexiteers that this is 'the will of the people' - no it is not. We weren't even asked about what we thought about the customs union issue, or the free market, let alone the Irish border, had we known all this who knows how people would have felt? They call the Remain campaign 'project fear' - I beg to differ - the Brexiteers relied on scare tactics about immigration and 'taking back control' - control - of course - we had never in reality lost. Now these idiots don't want our sovereign Parliament who they wanted to be in 'control' to have an opinion on the deal - that's if Mrs. Weak and Wobbly ever gets around to having the spine to make a decision.

Vanessa Smith ● 2809d

Are you referring to overseas voters? I was not aware of this change, please tell more?

Christopher Gillie ● 2810d

Remember not all Brits were allowed to vote in the referendum. May says she is going to allow all of them to vote by I think by 2020.

Nicholas Beard ● 2810d

I would not want to remove voting rights, as that it is a slippery slope, indeed the opposite, I want to extend them to 16 and 17 year olds. Currently they cannot vote, and people arguing against it sometimes say that they are inexperienced and not worldly enough to vote. Someone with dementia is allowed to vote though. Interesting contrast.

Christopher Gillie ● 2810d

The article said "Third Country" not "Third World Country"This means external to all existing trade arrangements, not suddenly poor and having no infrastructure, education, subsistence farming etc.

Christopher Gillie ● 2810d

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/

Vanessa Smith ● 2810d

SamRead about the search for the new tory leader. Really good stuff in city AM. Enjoy

Nicholas Beard ● 2811d

Thanks for the heads up - I've now signed up for the mailing list!

Sam Pollard ● 2811d

Haven't you realised yet? Brexit is a religious cult, facts and evidence do not matter, it's all about faith and belief.

Ian Fillingham ● 2811d

City AM just now. These MP's demand answers over customs union. Strange bed fellows.

Nicholas Beard ● 2811d

SamYou can register for city AM by e mail. It comes twice a day. Its really good if you enjoy economics etc. However now I understand post Brexit we will have to pay for data from Galileo. The military use it etc. I wonder what other data is on there that has freaked our government? We must soon reach a point where it is cheaper to stop in the EU. The farmers want their CAP  payments to continue I understand. Well there is a surprise. On LBC this morning James Obrien had small business men phoning in about the customs union and how it will effect them. My it was frightening, these callers were non political but were worried for their futures. Very very literate and level headed. I dont mind saying it frightened me and I felt sorry for them.

Nicholas Beard ● 2811d

Thanks for the recommendation - it certainly was an interesting read!Link in case anyone else wants a read: http://www.cityam.com/286324/head-luxembourgs-city-body-claims-tory-infighting-only

Sam Pollard ● 2811d

Well indeed. £ 200 bn over 10 years is more than double the UK's current net annual payments to the EU of £8.6 bn. On top of the £39 bn exit bill, and before we've negotiated any access to the SM."Let's pay at least £240 bn to leave the EU." Which, peculiarly enough wasn't on the side of any bus that I can remember.The alternative, Theresa May's New Customs Partnership is much cheaper for business (almost zero cost) because it seeks to replicate today's arrangements but is thought to be "cretinous" by brexiters and "magical thinking" by the EU27.David Davis, October 2016: "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2811d

Huw. Better still. HM customs giving evidence to the Brext parlimentary committee said for every customs declaration a business fills in there will be a charge of £32.50. This will add up to £20  billion a year. This is under Max Fac the system Boris favours. No 10 said £20 billion is speculation but did not quote a figure.

Nicholas Beard ● 2811d

Mark Carney, expert economist and governor of the Bank of England, presents detailed figures to indicate every UK household is £900 worse off because of BrexitBoris Johnson denies this but without citing any figuresBrexit is a nutshell. Who do you believe?

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2812d

Sam read city AM a really good article about tory infighting and the Brexit deal.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

Read city am today. I see the latest trouble is with GALILEO. I remember G Osborne saying we would be excluded if we voted to leave the EU pre referendum. He explained how satelites are important to the UK as we manuafure them quite sucessfully. Of course he was branded project fear. Well well!!!!

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

"we could become a third world country after Brexit"This is getting very silly now.

Sam Pollard ● 2812d

Uber has just chosen Paris for its fling taxi hub. Why not uk? The tories said inward investmeent would increase here after the referendum result.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

I read today that the head of Luxembourgs finance claims that Tory in fighting is holding up a deal with the EU. He says negotiations are not even taking place between Labour and Conservatives. He continues we could become a third world country after Brexit without agreement.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

Should read 'can't' afford for us to off into the sunset not 'can' :)

Steve Allum ● 2812d

To answer Benjamin's original question. No I don't think negotiations are going well. I just hope we have a trump card somewhere. I'm proud to call myself a European but don't think belonging to the European Union will be good for our country in the long term. I think the politicians in Brussels can afford for us to go off into the sunset. Their whole existence depends on it. The one thing that saddened me the most was when Nick Clegg MP (former MEP) said on the Andrew Marr show (paraphrasing here) that the older members of the community's vote shouldn't count as they would pass away soon. When you start to discriminate in democracy, we're all on a slippery slope.

Steve Allum ● 2812d

Yes but I'm assuming that this would be the cost of import or export taxes. Ie it would be down to us to charge a sum on imported goods from the EU if they don't let us in the customs union. We import more than we export to the EU so they would have to pay for this. Unfortunately it would be passed onto the UK consumer. German car prices would go through the roof. This is why we need a good deal.

Steve Allum ● 2812d

Fracking. Cheap oil cheap gas.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

All the factories have been closed so that wont happened. We have no propper training schemes.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

How could we all miss such a simple solution - just build more oil factories and produce more oil. Genius!

Ian Fillingham ● 2812d

The Netherlands are big. Remember they are going put the solar panels on all UK social housing. We could not compete.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

No need to worry, fret & moan.The long lost Miliband brother haf returned. With Blair & Clegg at his side, they will soon slay the Brexit Dragon & peace shall rain again in this land, under the blue spangled banner of freedom & unity.We shall regain our rightful place at the table & once more in harmony with our EU brothers control the destiny of Western Europe for our own ends forever more.

Robin Dickers ● 2812d

To update: of the two systems Theresa May is considering to replace the customs union, one HMRC say would cost businesses up to £200 bn over ten years, and the other ministers believe could be illegal.This is from the party that believe they are the "pro business" ones. For the avoidance of doubt £ 200 bn over 10 years is more than double the UK's current net payments to the EU of £8.6 bn a year, I hope this helps.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2812d

"We are the 9th largest exporter in the world" Yes, 10th I believe  but it hurts to see who is ahead of us. The Netherlands?? Even little Switzerland is not far behind us and a tiny country like Ireland exports more than half what we do. Not to mention Belgium. We are slipping way behind. 1 China 1,990,000,000,0002 United States 1,456,000,000,0003 Germany 1,322,000,000,0004 Japan 634,900,000,0005 South Korea 511,800,000,0006 France 507,000,000,0007 Hong Kong 502,500,000,0008 Netherlands 495,400,000,0009 Italy 454,100,000,00010 United Kingdom 407,300,000,00011 Canada 393,500,000,00012 Mexico 374,300,000,00013 Singapore 361,600,000,00014 Switzerland 318,100,000,00015 Taiwan 310,400,000,00016 United Arab Emirates 298,600,000,00017 Russia 281,900,000,00018 Spain 280,500,000,00019 Belgium 277,700,000,00020 India 268,600,000,00021 Thailand 214,300,000,00022 Ireland 206,000,000,000

Steve Taylor ● 2812d

Yes, I agree. A Brexit plane is just silly. We shouldn't always believe what we read. Mr Johnson when based in Brussels used to write articles for the Telegraph praising the EU all the time. I don't think Mr Johnson is a EU sceptic as much as he would like us to think. At the same time I also don't think Mr Corbyn is a remainer as much as he would like us to think. He was Tony Benn's protégé after all.

Steve Allum ● 2812d

The price of oil illustrates why we need to import less from the continent and start producing from home.

Steve Allum ● 2812d

We are the 9th largest exporter in the world but you are right, we do import more than we export. Germany, France and Italy are ahead of us but this is probably due to the amount of cars we import from them. This is why we all need a good deal. In terms of high wages and greed that is debatable. You only have to look at what happened to the Gillette factory in Brentford. It was more economically viable for the company to move production to Poland where they can pay less due to housing and costs of living being much lower..All we seem to produce now is flats. Hopefully that will change in the future.

Steve Allum ● 2812d

Now I see that Boris wants a 'Brexit' plane so that he can 'promote the UK's interests'. He also doesn't want it to be a 'drab grey colour'.No doubt it'll be built with imported parts from the EU at thrice the cost they used to be!

Sam Pollard ● 2812d

Yes that is her.

Nicholas Beard ● 2812d

"I just don't accept the premise that we have any economic issues with voting to leave. My best expectation, with 30 years of financial experience is that there will not be an economic impact."Andrea Leadsom June 20th 2016.Is that the 'stupid' woman? Think Bercow probably hit the nail on the head.

Vanessa Smith ● 2813d

Well highlighted. However we all knew this was nonsense. The day after the referendum the pound started going down. NO ECONOMIC IMPACT ha ha we didnt even manage 24 hours without impact. What does she say now????????

Nicholas Beard ● 2813d

In the week that the Bank of England said Brexit has already made the average British household £900 a year poorer, and the UK economy 2% smaller that it would have been otherwise let's remember Andrea Leadsom's pre-referendum prediction:"I just don't accept the premise that we have any economic issues with voting to leave. My best expectation, with 30 years of financial experience is that there will not be an economic impact."Andrea Leadsom June 20th 2016.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2813d

"Yes, but it is great for exporting goods. It makes us competitive."If only we were an exporting country but we aren't. We are Importers!  We lost our export industry to Japan, Vietnam, India & China years ago. Even Australia and South Africa picked up markets from as as we out priced ourselves due to labour disputes, low productivity, high wages and greed. Just look at the Midlands. Textiles, Pottery, Machinery - all gone! Shipping Lines are now regularly omitting UK as a European Load Port because we don't justify the cost of calling into a UK Port for minimum quantities of containers. Hamburg and Rotterdam are thriving! 

Steve Taylor ● 2813d

When petrol was 120 $ a barrel it was price x at the pump in the uk. Now to reach price x petrol only needs to be 100$ a barrel. Of course our food is delivered by lorry (DIESEL) so inflation there. This will create inflation which is where the £900 a year bill per family is coming from. Expand it waste collection by lorry council tax up. Diesel trains fares up.

Nicholas Beard ● 2813d

Yes, but it is great for exporting goods. It makes us competitive. The reason Greece is and has been in such dire straits is due to the fact that it can't devalue its currency. Unfortunately for them they're now shackled by the EU. I don't know about petrol prices, you could be right there though.

Steve Allum ● 2813d

Petrol price. If we had joined the euro petrol prices would have been less than now. The pound has devalued so much why are the Brexiteers not supporting the devaluation?

Nicholas Beard ● 2813d

I dont think the EU has enough power. I suggested to my MEP a long time ago that there should be an approved list of christian names. So when a baby was born the parents would submitt the chosen name to Brussels for approval. If it was on the list ok if not you would chose another name. I also hoped countries could me merged giving greater synergie.

Nicholas Beard ● 2813d

I don't think everything is the EU's fault, some great work has been achieved. I just think it has grown too big and will continue to do so without being democratically accountable.How many of your MEP's can you name without using Google? This is a very contentious issue and I have friends who have been really upset with the result but I think we will be better off out in the long run.

Steve Allum ● 2813d

Any vote between two choices will produce a higher percentage for the winner than a vote between a multitude of choices. Stop confusing basic maths with democracy.

Ian Fillingham ● 2813d

re: "how little influence we have in 'the club'"Right now we have a vote and a veto. In the future we will have nothing. The UK has already negotiated a lot of big exceptions (eg: not in Euro, not in Schengen and the budget rebate), so we have been able to get a very special deal and shape our membership to our advantage. We won't get that if we try to re-join at a later date.When Cameron asked for more immigration controls, when he could not be bothered to use the powers he already has (expel jobless EU migrants after 3 months, like Belgium does) it is hardly surprising Merkel did not take him seriously.Brexiteers need to look at Britain's failings rather than pretend everything is the EU's fault.http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/30/belgium-sends-burden-eu-citizens-letters-asking-them-to-leave-the-country

Christopher Gillie ● 2813d

I think our Prime Minister at the time tried the charm offensive with the EU before the referendum to get a 'special deal' and they weren't interested. Which goes to show how little influence we have in 'the club'. I think it's a real shame what's happened as a good lot of work has been acheived by the EU. Specially for the environment. Saying that, I hope we do become like Canada or Norway. Think they were shown to be the happiest people in America and Europe.

Steve Allum ● 2814d

I suspect that if Brexit goes through, we will become like Canada, on the border of a huge superpower, but helpless to influence it other than with charm and argument. The Canadians have mastered the art of charming the USA in trying to get them to be reasonable, but we have the clumsy Boris to help us do this. We are giving up voting and veto rights over the power block that is the most important to us.

Christopher Gillie ● 2814d

Just read about Sainsburys changing conditions for staff. Hate to think what conditions for workers will be post Brexit!!!

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

Oops meant 'accept'. :-)

Steve Allum ● 2814d

"I have more serous things to attend to, than worry about this little Brexit."And that of course sums it up nicely on exactly why May should have apologised to Brussels about the vote and said that the great unwashed didn't understand what they were doing because they had much more serous (sic) things to do than to than to think or try to understand what Brexit would actually mean. It was therefore totally irresponsible to invoke Article 50

Steve Taylor ● 2814d

You just cant stop calling everyone but yourself  uninformed and uneducated. Who are these people you keep on about because I can laugh about anything I want to, I have a great laugh about your rantings on this forum. you must have to sit in a cold bath every night to let all that steam out.I have more serous things to attend to, than worry about this little Brexit. I would calm down or you may end up having a heart attack if you rant any longer.

Bernard Allen ● 2814d

We do except the democratic outcome but we don't accept it!!

Steve Taylor ● 2814d

I think we should except the democratic outcome. It had a higher percentage of any General Election or Local Election. If the EU had stopped meddling or given our Prime Minister a better deal then we wouldn't be in this situation. Tony Benn warned of this back in the 70's. No one listened unfortunately.

Steve Allum ● 2814d

Steve when Brexit has taken place and the cracks begin to appear you say the PM has a responsibilty to stop the country going under. What do you think the then PM will do? Really all brexiteets should resign at that time. I dont see this goverment getting many trade deals at the moment. Macron of France got a deal to build a COMPLETE METRO in Dubai, solar panels for India. Russia supplying a 5 billion £ gas pipe line to Russia. Nothing much here. Social housing here is have solar panels on all roofs. Funny Holland is supplying the panels. What happened to buy British?

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

"There is a section of the British voters who have been pushed around and told what to do for to long by public school boys. They couldn't give a dam if the country goes under"Precisely why May should have ignored the referendum. It wasn't legally binding  As PM she has a responsibility to stop the country going under even if it means upsetting the uninformed and uneducated. Hence this is clearly all her fault. The buck stops with her. This isn't a game, Bernard, just because you don't approve of Public School education and think it's funny that the government is sent into confusion, as you put it.

Steve Taylor ● 2814d

Correct. Its looks worse by the day.

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

The biggest political deceit of recent times is Labour’s "jobs first Brexit." That’s right up there with a "healthy living Bubonic Plague."Corbyn is being pathetically obvious. He doesn't want to oppose government policy a) because ideologically he's a dyed in the wool Eurosceptic and has been for decades and b) strategically it suits him to watch the Tories make an absolute balls up of it and sweep him into Downing Street on the back of that.The funny thing is though if he backed the EEA/EFTA option this polls very well with voters, he could bring the government down and get into office but it would appear he, like the Tories prefers lying to the electorate. So at the moment he's polling 4 points below the worst government in living memory, and his personal ratings are at 11 points below "don't know" when people are asked their preference between him, or Theresa May. Jeremy Corbyn, coming third in a two horse race, that's quite an achievement.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2814d

What frightens me is that the Brexit group will not acknowledge figures such as yours. They say read a book or project fear.

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

Your figures are frightening. What does Boris, Redwood et all say ?????

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

When I was young the older people used to say, "Well the tories can be relied upon for law and order and the economy". Look at them now, the pound is in  freefall, we are being marked down by the ratings agencies. Law and order, take a look at London this year!!!

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

That was me letting my frustrations with this national embarrassment get the better of me, but this morning it's reported Brexit has sparked a dramatic fall in EU businesses registering in the UK. French are down 48%, Belgium down 38%, Netherlands down 52%. Foreign companies are now reluctant to invest in the UK. OECD figures show that last year foreign direct investment into the UK tumbled by 90%. There's your brexit dividend, being driven through by the tory ideologues. Ably facilitated by the absolute boy Corbyn. I've often thought that TM could face down the hard-line brexitwerps in her party relatively easily, but if she lost Corbyn she'd be out within the month. Somewhat ironic.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2814d

I remember an episode of Minder set in a casino. A man was continually raising the stakes and he put this car up for chips. It reminded me looking back of Cameron but he gambled the UK. (He lost).

Nicholas Beard ● 2814d

uninformed and uneducated Mr Taylor. So you and your highly intellectual mates are the only informed and educated people in the British isles?She could simply have apologised to the people that David Cameron had wasted their time and was unfair in assuming the great unwashed had the capacity to understand the implications of their vote on such an enormous issue. Can you really imagine the outcome of such a stupid statement as the above.There is a section of the British voters who have been pushed around and told what to do for to long by public school boys. They couldn't give a dam if the country goes under if it means living under people similar to you, who just think of anyone with a different opinion to you, ISUninformed, Uneducated, Great unwashed, no capacity to understand, Implications of their vote. The above sounds like what MP's think of most of the residents of this country, that's why why Government issues are now part of the local council elections.There is a section of this country that hasn't had a voice for many years, right or wrong they have found by voting the way they are it's sent the government into confusion and many local Councillors wondering what the hell is happening. 

Bernard Allen ● 2815d

Spot on. Imagine a pm (Camerom) gambling his countries future!!! I see in Italy they are heading for a clash with the EU. Abolish pesion reforms and bring in tax cuts. However not a whisper of a referendum. They are too smart for that.

Nicholas Beard ● 2815d

"So why is it May's fault?"Because Cameron then did the decent thing by resigning to demonstrate his contempt of the majority.  May had every opportunity to acknowledge the result and declare the referendum 'result'  to be what it was - an opinion of the uninformed and uneducated and not legally binding.  She couild simply have apologised to the people that David Cameron had wasted their time and was unfair in assuming the great unwashed had the capacity to understand the implications of their vote on such an enormous issue.

Steve Taylor ● 2815d

I stood as a Lib Dem candidate in the local elections, and remember talking to a conservative candidate sat right next to me during a "meet the candidates" event in Chiswick, where candidates outnumbered voters.To pass the time, as we were all so bored, we naturally started chatting. When I asked, him, he agreed with me that Brexit was the most harmful decision any of us has seen in our lifetimes, and he then volunteered that he wanted us to remain, to be in the customs union and single market.I then asked him why, if that was the case, he was standing as a conservative candidate. He had no answer. I found this simultaneously both baffling and perhaps also, sadly, completely explains everything.

Christopher Gillie ● 2815d

David Cameron has resigned after the referendum (who has no balls?)QuoteBut a frustrated electorate used the poll to reject the status quo and, as the Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, described it, “stick two fingers up” at Britain’s politicians.UnquoteThat's what Brexit was all about, it had nothing to do with leaving the European Market.Dangerous times when you underestimate the electorate of your country, who have been treated like rubbish and not listen to for years. To spite themselves, you end up with a knee jerk reaction to give politicians a slap in the face.No doubt both sides will end up paying for Cameron's folly, Maybe the good people of the British Isles should stop and take a good hard look at where any prospected MP was educated, and stop voting for publicly educated candidates from Eton. 

Bernard Allen ● 2815d

Because she desperately wanted to be PM after Cameron? She has neither the intelligence or bottle to stand up to the 'bastards' as John Major called them. She won't make a decision because to do so will upset someone, such is life. If you haven't got the stomach to lead then you should depart.

Vanessa Smith ● 2815d

During the 2015 general election campaign, David Cameron promised to renegotiate the terms of the UK's EU membership and later hold a referendum on the subject if a Conservative majority government was elected.So why is it May's fault?

Bernard Allen ● 2815d

There is only one Leave argument that holds any water for me, and it is a powerful one:"We" (not me) voted for it.I think there is a more powerful argument for stopping it. Voting does not stop in a democracy. If there are serious grounds for changing our minds we should be allowed to vote on it.Doing so too soon is dangerous though, as the full horror of the impact may not yet be clear to people and losing a 2nd vote would make it truly irreversible.I think going right up to the brink, seeing the chasm, dispelling the doubletalk and having a full blooded thought through Brexit Plan showing the full detail, with no room for lies, implications, promises or ambiguity is what is needed. Just the stark facts. Smudging it, stretching it, and smearing it, which is what Theresa is trying to do is just not on.

Christopher Gillie ● 2816d

You are right. I asked several of my friends who are leavers which directives they did not like as they were always complaing about them. Funny they could name any. I asked did they not like extra maternity leave. They did not know!!! One actually voted to leave because they thought, "IT WAS TIME FOR A CHANGE"! Well the pound is going down nicely. Remember when the euro was introduced, destined to fail etc the papers proclaimed. Well look at it now!!!!!!!!!!

Nicholas Beard ● 2816d

There is no debate on this thread. No leavers can contribute because they would have to be insane to still want Brexit after hearing how it will detroy the UK. Thanks to Harry and Meghan for giving us a temporary reprieve from being the laughing stock of the world and a big thanks also that no scumbag politicians were allowed to show their faces at the wedding.

Steve Taylor ● 2816d

Read the book. It really is worth the effort, this is a mature and balanced understanding of all the implications of Brexit.

Nigel Richard Meakin ● 2817d

Post Brexit what will be the role of the WTO?

Nicholas Beard ● 2817d

You're right, Brexit is divisive, someone should step in and put a stop to it.

Ian Fillingham ● 2817d

What do you mean?

Nigel Richard Meakin ● 2817d

Is open Skys rubbish then.

Nicholas Beard ● 2817d

If you really want to understand the positive reasons for leaving the EU then please read the excellent book titled “ Making a success of Brexit and reforming the EU” by Roger Bootle.This will give you the true facts and figures, positives and negatives.You will then be, perhaps, better informed.

Nigel Richard Meakin ● 2817d

Not sure about this but read an article on open skys(EU AGREEMENT). This suggests post Brexit EU airlines would retain the right to fly say London Manchester but British Airlines would lose the right to do so.

Nicholas Beard ● 2817d

Just read the EU transport director has said there is a distinct possibility that on day one post Brexit that there may be no flights allowed between the uk and the EU. Full article in city AM. Another thing we were not told about pre referendum. Some airlines are looking at putting a clause on tickets for 2019.

Nicholas Beard ● 2817d

There have been some cracking brexit threads on ChiswickW4. The few brexiteers who have contributed fall silent as more and more facts are revealed about the consequences and total stupidity of a referendum that Cameron brought on to pacify the right wing of his party.

Iain Muir ● 2817d

I want to hear from the leavers. I want to hear about how good its going to be post Brexit. Lower taxes more money for the health service. Massive surpluses from all the trade we will be doing with the world. All our young people in good jobs in the health service farming etc. Good strong borders without freight being checked. As long as we do as President Trump tells us I am sure he will have our best interests at heart. We have started off ok agreeing to send more troops to Afghanistan when he asked so it looks good.

Nicholas Beard ● 2818d

I think it's a healthy thread to have, it's remained civil thus far. (Although I'm willing to bet I can spot the rather sheepish leave voters in this thread!)

Gary Mormon ● 2818d

Bad, bad idea to start this thread on this Brentford TW8 forum, it’s divisive and sure to turn nasty in the end.Admin should step in.

Robin Dickers ● 2818d

I think its a good idea for a thread. Its nice to know the pound is down against the euro etc!

Nicholas Beard ● 2818d

This is a bad idea for a thread imo.

Keith Iddon ● 2818d

One more Vanessa. I have just heard on the news the UK is being taken to court by the EU for breaking air pollution levels and having no credible plan to manage air quality. My question is post Brexit who will monitor our air quality? Will we all die of pollution with the UK out of control.

Nicholas Beard ● 2818d

Vanessa a very good point about parliament. I thought they wanted parliament to take back power too. I heard bro jo saying after Brexit we can get rid of the 48 hour working week limit. Who are the people who want to work these hours. The beaches too are an interesting point. We will keep the cleanliness standards BUT WHO WILL INSPECT THE BEACHES? At the moment its the EU. So uninforced standards are useless. We are leaving EUROTOM but nothing will be in place post brexit so our nuclear industry will be rudderless.

Nicholas Beard ● 2818d

Ho, ho that sounds like very old friends of ours - wouldn't know an 'immigrant' if they fell over one - but are vehement in their belief they should all be sent packing. Coming from ordinary working class backgrounds but having made good, they now have totally forgotten where they came from. I would always take the view that if I was displaced by war or any other reasons I would hope that someone, somewhere would hold out a helping hand  - sadly I find the 'sod you Jack' attitude is more prevalent with those who have the most. Ditto their choice of newspaper - if anyone had told me that this bloody face of Brexit would cause so many rows I would never have believed it. That slimy git Cameron has much to answer for.

Vanessa Smith ● 2818d

Both my parents (not from Teeside I should add, but further south along the East Coast) voted for Brexit, and apparently I'll be the one to benefit from what they voted for....geez thanks parents !.I tend to avoid political discussions with my parents because as we've both got older I think they've become more right wing, and conversely I've become more left wing. And the ironic thing is they live in a small rural village which is about as far removed from being impacted by immigration etc. as could be. Then again they read the Daily Mail...what more is there to say ?!.

Adam Beamish ● 2818d

"Maybe some of the 'leave' voters could chip in!"I think they all live in Teeside and are worried about 'all them immigrants coming over here and taking my benefits'.Pity in some ways that they'll be the worst affected by it all as there won't be a strong enough economy to pay for all those pies and take-aways they live on.

Lorne Gifford ● 2818d

Really i think all the brexit vote has managed to do so far is Unmask the worst of both sides of the argument. Maybe i'm jaded from twitter, but any discussion where the b word is mentioned turns into name calling and insult hurling. Hilariously the debate always fizzles down to people either getting called racist (pathetic idiotic xenophobic racist bigots) or being called 'snowflakes'. As for the right politicians managing the process, probably not, but i think it would be hard to find anyone who could navigate this without issue or compromise. Maybe some of the 'leave' voters could chip in!

Sam Pollard ● 2818d

You are spot on.

Nicholas Beard ● 2818d

Taken from a similar discussion on Chiswick W4."This business made profits of £1.3bn. The tax on that is £262.2million, not to mention all the higher rate taxpayers it employed as well. It funded your healthcare and grandkids' schools.Now they're leaving, because of your gormless hissy-fit about hearing a bit of Polish in the Post Office.Pathetic idiotic xenophobic racist bigots."Not sure I'd have put it in those exact words - but yes, pretty well sums it up. If I hear one more politico, journalist - whatever, bang on about 'the will of the people' I might scream. Who mentioned single market, customs union or the Irish border during that daft referendum campaign? Who even knew? The very people (Moggie, Govie, BoJo et al) who wanted to 'take back control' are now  the very ones moaning about parliament having a say on any agreement. That referendum was won on immigration lies and bigotry, this country (and one T. May) is being held to ransom by a few rabid Tory Brexiteers. It is just one bloody, glorious mess that will drag this country down.

Vanessa Smith ● 2818d