Forum Topic

Are the Council now compromising its residents safety?

From Get West LondonStreet lights in Hounslow are to be turned off for longer at night to help the council save cash.In a bid to save £117,000 from its annual highways contract to help make up for huge government grant cuts, the council will switch on the lights nine minutes later in the mornings and turn them off nine minutes earlier in the evenings.The brightness level of the lights will also be reduced by a further 20% in addition to a 20% reduction agreed previously.This will mean that between midnight and dawn the output level of the lights will be reduced to 50% of its original levels overall.The council says reduced street lighting levels won't compromise public safety but will mean the council will not meet the standards and requirements set out in the code of practice for street lighting.

Paul Fisher ● 2737d43 Comments

Thanks Guy

Paul Fisher ● 2731d

what all the way from Star Trek?

Jennifer Selig ● 2731d

Roger Neil Vipondsays a member who has only posted on here twice11/08/2018 20:43:00 Roger Neil Vipond07/02/2016 11:34:00 Roger Neil Vipond

Bernard Allen ● 2732d

Oh for goodness sake, the same names keep popping up on all these Forums.  And usually the only voice of sanity and common sense is that of Guy Lambert, bless him.I don't much like idiomatic American expressions, but I can't think of an appropriate British one that corresponds to "Get a life" !

Roger Neil Vipond ● 2732d

I offer my apologies, you are quite right, I had not read through enough of the posts to have spotted that. Sorry Vanessa!

Christopher Gillie ● 2732d

Thanks Bernard. Yes I did a fair amount of research on this topic when 'Ellar's Stelas' were introduced in Hounslow. These are 1st generation LED street lights emitting a high amount of blue-white light.Three points worth noting.1) There's no convincing scientific research showing a correlation between levels of street lighting and crime, though there are some amusing academic spats on the topic2) There's a growing amount of research on the impact of artificial light at night (ALAN) on human health and the environment. See for example http://www.artificiallightatnight.orghttp://www.verlustdernacht.dehttp://darksky.org3) An interesting aspect of this research focuses on the impact of 'blue-white' light at night. As noted above, this is the type of light that is emitted by the LED streetlights in Hounslow and also by mobile phones. This light is the type experienced at mid day and the research focuses on what the impact of it is on human health and ecology when experienced at night.The Barcelona report is one of the most recent on the topic: https://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_655460_en.htmlOf note, Public Health England have also published warnings on the topic: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ed-streetlight-bright-sleep-damage-eyesight-public-health-england-a8285981.html

Russell Pearson ● 2732d

This is from 2014 by a Chiswick Resident who took up the health risk with LBOHI've also asked them if they're going to be replacing the luminaires completely, given the growing amount of scientific research on the potential health risks from LED street lights with a high amount of blue spectrum light, such as the Phillips Stela ones used across Hounslow. The risk will remain even if/when they're dimmed.

Bernard Allen ● 2733d

Err, she didn't Christopher, Nicholas raised it.I'm sure if I search enough on the internet I can find a paper written by someone (who don't forget is funded/paid to undertake such research) alluding to the risks of everything.

Adam Beamish ● 2733d

See Exeter University paper on this and also Barcelona Institute for Global Health.

Nicholas Beard ● 2733d

I was astonished to read that Vanessa brought up breast and prostate cancer and retina damage in regard to LED lighting.I would like to know where this comes from. Not being funny or anything, but I cannot for the life of me see how breast or prostate cancer is affected by LED lighting. At a stretch maybe retina damage, but it seems really unlikely to me. Anatomically the whole assertion seems weird.Photons are photons, LEDs emit the same types of photons as all other light sources, but with less bias to yellow. I am sorry to shoot you down Vanessa, as I value your contributions, but unless you can explain why I risk more prostate cancer from LED lighting, I am afraid I have to call you out on scaremongering, in an MMR scandal type of way!

Christopher Gillie ● 2733d

You misunderstand Bernard, I'm not on about the history of the LED lamps within Hounslow per se, but the perception about them being a significant health risk.

Adam Beamish ● 2733d

Adam I am surprised, This LED lamp discussion took place 2013 / 2014 and you didn't know about it. and you suggest it all about the nanny state.Take away the information about the lamps themselves, it has left some streets with a lot of light under the lamp post, then no light between lamp posts.Other Roads the heads were put on top of very old posts with out a though of the spacing needed for theses new lights.Some were put on new post that were to high for the road as they did a good job of lighting up the tops of trees, with no light reaching the pavement area  below.Wouldn't you say that was a little mess up by LBOH?Would you submit a development with the street lighting so floored?Shows you how far behind one part of the borough can be

Bernard Allen ● 2733d

It was my decision, Paul. The competent authorities are happy with the change and it will save money and energy, both of which are desirable.

Guy Lambert ● 2733d

SmokingI like looking at old ads. I remember one where there was a picture of a babies face and it said SMOKING GIVES YOU HEALTH. GIVE HIM A CHANCE. Meaning give the child cigarettes later on I suppose. I look at it sort of transfixed. A sociologist once to me to get the feel of a certain time read old newspapers and ads. He was right especially the ads. In the fifties it was amazing what could give you health and well being. That was my point.

Nicholas Beard ● 2734d

Tend to agree with you Adam, I feel quite liberated as I don't worry too much either - no point about things that are beyond the control of most of us. I'll bet though that all these scaremongers are glued to those blights on modern life - the mobile 'phone - not only will they ruin your eyesight, you'll likely either cause or have a blasted accident while you're faffing around with one in or out of the car.

Vanessa Smith ● 2734d

Scaremongering, nanny state, wrap everyone up in cotton wool etc.How anyone could have ever thought that smoking was good for you is beyond rational comprehension, same applies to breathing in fumes/pollution.  But everything carries an element of risk and within reason we should embrace that.I'll keep walking under ladders, I'll ski regularly, I won't always wear a helmet when I'm cycling, the one thing I won't die from is stress/anxiety brought on by worrying about how everything and anything might kill me.  42 years old and the 'worst' injury I've ever suffered is a mallet finger when playing in goal, an injury that I suffered in the warm-up but only realised when I took my glove off after the game.  Touch wood, bad things don't seem to happen to me, or maybe it's because I just deal with it and move on.Conversely, my Mrs, who is a complete worrier and invariably with a negative outlook, always seems to have some kind of issue or problem, and I am always going on at her about the power of a positive mind and embracing everything that life throws at you, which in turn makes you a stronger person.Although publicly admitting to reading the Daily Mail is worrying ;-) (I am jesting, my parents read it too, much to my chagrin).Or should I book my plot in the cemetery now given I'm currently sat infront of 2 LED screens ?.

Adam Beamish ● 2734d

Guy, are you able to tell us who is pushing this through as a delegated decision?Is it you or Cllr Sampson as the matter seems to overlap two Cabinet Member portfolios?

Paul Fisher ● 2734d

BernardJust seen an article in Daily Mail on line about BLUE LIGHT and eyes. Think it originated at the university of Toledo.

Nicholas Beard ● 2734d

Given this countries terrible record on public health I dont see how all the research on LEDs can be dismissed. Look at decaf coffee for example. People are conned into buying it without being told the truth. I did not know about Swiss Water Processed decaf. A post here actually mentions a make and name of LED which surprised me. Remember leaded petrol, smoking! Well that improved your health. After all we do now have some of the worst life expectancy rates in the developed world. News item two days ago!

Nicholas Beard ● 2734d

You will be surprised Adam, but I am not going through all the threads from 2014 on Chiswick W4 to dig out the info.The links are there it's how you interpret the mine field of technical information  old post from 2014Date/Time: 08/05/14 16:37:00Heard today that Hounslow are backing down and will we hope (not that they ever break a promise) be further dimming the new LED streetlights and adding shades. This is to be welcomed.I've also asked them if they're going to be replacing the luminaires completely, given the growing amount of scientific research on the potential health risks from LED street lights with a high amount of blue spectrum light, such as the Phillips Stela ones used across Hounslow. The risk will remain even if/when they're dimmed.

Bernard Allen ● 2734d

Agreed Vanessa.Come on people, sense of perspective, LED lights and cancer - it's a wonder you ever dare step outside your front doors ;-)

Adam Beamish ● 2734d

Is there a point? For every bad thing you'll probably be able to find several contradictions.

Vanessa Smith ● 2734d

Have a look on the internet regarding health and LED lights.

Nicholas Beard ● 2734d

"Are these lights LED? If so what about other risks. Breast cancer Prostate cancer and damage to retinas?"Not sure I think there's much danger of any of that. However - supposing that were the case, what we have is the risk of maybe making driving more hazardous, or being robbed due to dimmer lighting or getting some disease - great!

Vanessa Smith ● 2734d

Why are LBH employing people who contract to buy old stock when they plainly lack the ability and knowledge to negotiate and fully understand the pros and cons and the proper prices etc.  That surely is the very least that any Council must do - only employ properly skilled negotiators who fully understand the goods and services they are negotiating for.  The NHS could do with a few of these bods too.  Both organisations seem to be employing naive unskilled people in these vital positions costing us, the tax payer, millions.

Jennifer Selig ● 2735d

This is a link to one of the many threads in 2014http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=community&link=http://appasp.chiswickw4.com/server/app/forum/ShowMessage.asp?ID=991614

Bernard Allen ● 2735d

Nicholas Beard This was discussed at length over many threads back in 2014 on the Chiswick W4 site.This was when the lights started to be installed around Chiswick.Also discussed were the High lampposts, lighting up the tree tops so shorter lamp post were agreed, but know Idea if they were ever changed.The new LED lights are great just below the lamp post, but then create very dark areas between lampposts.Hounslow Council were sold an old stock of non compliant lamp heads.There was no way to dim the lights back in 2014 LBOH had to fit metal baffles to stop the glare into houses.The List Goes on and On, best of luck if you start searching for the old threads on Chiswick W4 

Bernard Allen ● 2735d

Are these lights LED? If so what about other risks. Breast cancer Prostate cancer and damage to retinas?

Nicholas Beard ● 2735d

In between each pool of glaring white light it is very black and dark.  Also in my neck of the woods they are on such tall poles they do an excellent job of brightly illuminating the tree tops and keeping the wild life wide awake and any poor sod whose bedroom happens to be on the same level.  Dimming was not possible back then, the Council could only offer to shield the light.  Amazing if now they have the ability to dim things down.

Jennifer Selig ● 2735d

Hello Guy.  Last conversation about this was with a street tour with Cllr Tony Louki, Cllr Sheila O’Reilly local police and other interested people and led by Hounslow highways.  Despite all this new fangled technology available and being provided to HH through tax payers money, it was pouring with rain and the HH chap was writing the notes on a fast disintegrating piece of paper.  It was tearing as he was making notes.  The shadows were discussed along with drug areas and the poor lighting.  The street tour was very interesting but not for the reasons you may have wanted it to be.

Sarah Felstead ● 2735d

SarahI was not aware of this problem on Northumberland Avenue. Has it been raised with ward councillors and/or Hounslow Highways. I'm happy to investigate but don't want to revisit old ground.

Guy Lambert ● 2735d

I have lost count of the times that money is spent on improvements just for the new equipment to be used in exactly the same old way.  These new street lights, we were clearly told, could be individually adjusted to be brighter or dimmer.  Why not ask people where they could be dimmed and where they would prefer them not to be so?Lots of conversations about the street lighting on Northumberland Avenue near Syon Lane station as the new lights were placed on the old poles and no suggestions made as to whether more poles were needed or whether the lights should be moved closer together so there are lots of very dangerous shadows

Sarah Felstead ● 2735d

"of 'the cost of everything and the value of nothing' mentality"Ain't that the truth...................

Vanessa Smith ● 2735d

That won't help the NHS will it - as we repeatedly trip up over the poor paving?It wasn't until it was me and because of social media that I discovered that three people had tripped and fallen that same afternoon on the same paving stone.Please report cracked and rocking paving stones and contractors who are parking on the pavement and not making good when they leave a site.

Philippa Bond ● 2735d

of 'the cost of everything and the value of nothing' mentality

Keith Iddon ● 2735d

Research published in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health based on 14 years of data from 62 local authorities across England and Wales found there was no evidence of any link between reduced street lighting and increased crime or traffic accidents.https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/29/turning-off-street-lights-does-not-lead-to-more-or-accidents-studyhttps://jech.bmj.com/content/69/11/1118I am sure that there are studies that show the opposite as well, but I am not sure it is as cut and dried an assertion as you seem to believe.

Christopher Gillie ● 2735d

I would be interested to know if Hounslow actually installed the required infrastructure to dim the lights in sections of the community.It's to long ago since the LED lights were installed over the borough, but I have a feeling Hounslow stopped short of installing the the controls to be able them to dim the lights.

Bernard Allen ● 2736d

That is a very good point Vanessa. I missed it. I bet they have an answer though.

Nicholas Beard ● 2736d

Good street lighting has always been recognised as necessary for public safety, so this doesn't bode well especially as there are so few police around as well.Strange though, how when people complained about the bright lights interfering with their sleep when in close proximity  to their homes Hounslow repeatedly claimed that they couldn't do anything about it?

Vanessa Smith ● 2736d

Must save money. A mantra now. However I hear the country is doing so well. Post Brexit the EU will suffer. In a paper the other day it said the euro will nead to be supported and the pound had gone up. I remember it at €1.40 to the pound now its €1.12. Council budgets cut! Our life expectancy slowing and some  of the worst in the developed world. Terrible state pension but we are doing well. Now the street lights are a target for cuts. Most new cars are paying £140 a year road tax so this is an increasing source of revenue for the goverment. Strange that we are in this situation.

Nicholas Beard ● 2736d

I grew up in the country, and it is much nicer and safer walking at night without streetlights. I miss it, and relish it when I visit my parents. you should try it.As a pedestrian, one is much safer without streetlights because vehicle lights are MUCH more noticeable. I would say that you, perhaps, are not accustomed to walking at night, in the dark. Try it, see the stars, save the planet, spend less tax revenue on light and more on social services!

Christopher Gillie ● 2736d

Christopher, you obviously don't have to walk home from work late at night or from anywhere else. Maybe you should get out more ;-)

Keith Iddon ● 2736d

Paul - presumably Hounslow will encourage more monstrous advertising hoardings, like the massive display proposed near us - the illumination from that will replace the dimmer street lights!

Vanessa Smith ● 2736d

Reduced energy consumption will help with the efforts to prevent a Hothouse Earth, so one danger has to be balanced against another.I would be quite happy with no streetlights at all, be able to see the stars, on a clear night, and have less light pollution disturbing my sleep, but I guess I am not in a majority in that regard.

Christopher Gillie ● 2736d