Forum Topic

Last chance for Brentford?

This might be a TLDR for some - if so, apologies in advance. Mr DC and I went for a walk in the winter sunshine yesterday afternoon. We looked at the south side of the High Street and felt utter despair; almost everything closed, demolition on the horizon. The gross vandalism of Georgian and Victorian buildings. (Even the less lovely building opposite Morrison’s and the Beehive… history and interest doesn’t have to be 200 years old and pretty. The County Court is a good case in point.)What’s to become of the beautiful NatWest building? It had a fantastic interior, even when overlaid with panelling and plastic. The building that housed the Post Office? Look above street level at the roof line and at the windows. It’s fantastic. Peel away the crummy PO frontage and it’s a gem. Even the building next door to that (Paddy Power at street level) – just slightly pre-war, I’d guess – has a decorative brickwork detail that someone had thought about. It wasn’t just thrown together. Go and have a look; cast your eyes above the ground floor and take it in. Not for the first time, I reflected upon the tricks missed by Hounslow Council, and the developers who will lay waste to swathes of the area’s history and charm, replacing it with serried ranks of cookie-cutter developments of absolutely no architectural merit whatsoever. What a shame.It’s the depressing lack of imagination and complete lack of understanding of what makes a cohesive community that gets to me the most. These new developments simply don’t work. Let me explain.I remember visiting a friend living in Bermondsey a while back. I don’t know if you know the area, but as recently as 20 years ago, Bermondsey was pretty grim. (Ditto Shoreditch – and look what’s happened there - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10571976/In-defence-of-the-Shoreditchification-of-London.html) After dinner, we went for a walk. Around us lay Maltby Street, where thriving businesses have been built out of railway arches, Ropewalk and Druid Street, full of people and life, and Bermondsey Street itself, buzzing with restaurants, bars, galleries and independent shops. We turned a corner – suddenly we were in the piazza of a new development, surrounded by new-build monoliths. Devoid of people, the only lights on were at Gregg’s Table, the ‘concept’ restaurant and brainchild of Gregg Wallace from MasterChef. It was empty. (I believe it’s now closed down.) It was a ghost town – and the contrast could not have been greater. And that’s what’s lined up for the south side of Brentford High Street. If someone – anyone – had employed a little imagination, the old buildings of Brentford would not have been slated for demolition. If someone – anyone – had thought that by refurbishing these buildings and letting them at affordable prices, it would have attracted small businesses and creative industries to the area. They would need to eat lunch and shop, thereby organically creating a demand for services from other small businesses (and some larger ones). Those people might eventually want to live nearer to their work, creating a demand for accommodation. All of this would be paying scads of cash into Hounslow’s coffers, only they’re too damned short-term and greedy to think like that. With thought, sensitivity and far-sightedness, Brentford could rival Chiswick for the title of Hounslow’s cash cow – AND leave current residents in place. But no… much easier sell off one of the last ‘affordable’ parts of riverside London by the pound, pull everything down and build a giant Gregg’s Table, but with even less charm and longevity.  Here’s the thing: flats don’t attract people – a vibrant, functional community does. Building hundreds and thousands of flats, to be sold off-plan and offshore, does not benefit Brentford one iota. Does Hounslow Council not care or are they just too stupid to understand? We find ourselves on a cusp here: the falling pound, the Brexit fiasco, a looming lack of construction workers… it all adds up to the sort of situation that gives developers the fear. Is it possible to stop at least some of this madness? Surely they now want out? The hideous and utterly unwanted Morrison’s development, for instance? Could some money be poured into Watermans to turn it into the Little South Bank that it could and should be? Could some forward-thinking, imaginative people be employed to cherish what’s already here, give it a little TLC and make it… sexy? It's not impossible; look what's happened to the Albany Arms. Having said that, it was rescued, by the skin of its teeth, from being turned into... flats. Kudos to Peter, Ash and James for not letting that happen - and we must support them so that it doesn't happen in the future. Destruction takes seconds. When our environment is gone, it's gone. There are no second chances. Come on, Brentfordonians – what do you think? Is there still time?

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2561d54 Comments

"Brentford is an odd place, as if some deranged, power-filled local politician had spliced, say, Putney with the lower reaches of Pudong."Yup - could that be the Glorious Leader they are referring to?

Vanessa Smith ● 2521d

Homepage article entitled 'Brentford has a new voice.'

Keith Iddon ● 2521d

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/08/lets-move-to-brentford-west-london

Philippa Bond ● 2522d

There was an article the other day in the Guardian, the author took a walk through Brentford and was commenting on the various houses and saying how commercial it was

Barbara Dudley ● 2522d

Another example of the fact that the Council has no interest in the history of Brentford

Neil Chippendale ● 2553d

Negativity will definitely get you nowhere!

Philippa Bond ● 2553d

A Museum is a nice idea but it will never happen. Brentford seems to be buiding more new tinpot flats than any other area of West London from what i can see and the traffic is going to be horrible when its all finished and Brentford already has traffic problems now. Brentford needs some new green open spaces to go with all the new buildings that are going to get built but like the Museum it wont happen.

Stephen Scott ● 2554d

Regarding the question of CPOs. A question was asked at last Thursday's meeting about the Park Rd. allotment holder's request - that Hounslow consider a CPO on the allotment site in view of the Duke of Northumberland's estate losing their planning appeal. This in order to guarantee the future use. The Leader of the council said that this wasn't going to happen as it was too complicated and expensive. Funny that - when they've used this to suit themselves in Brentford, and also were happy to try it on with the Showman's site in Feltham recently. Also worrying that the Leader also wanted to get 'personally involved' with talking to Northumberland estates about the allotment's future, when it is known he personally was in favour of the Duke's application in the first place.................

Vanessa Smith ● 2555d

One should remember too, respecting the bank/post office buildings (and Akash Electronics), that these were to be left alone by Ballymore, but that it was the Council who demanded their destruction and who are taking over that corner of the site via CPO & land swap, in order to build the ‘affordable housing’ block themselves. They felt they needed the extra space in order to fulfil their own imposed quota.

Nigel Moore ● 2555d

"Remember that line about the people who know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing?"Yes, something that affects everything these days - so sad because once these memories and the knowledge go the history of an area dies. Perhaps instead of Ballymore tiddling around with their craft sessions and Christmas tree bauble making they were bleating on about last week, they might like to think about something more permanent and tangible? Dare we hope Hounslow council could dedicate some CIL (Community Infrastructure Levy) money to a project something like this? I won't be holding my breath.

Vanessa Smith ● 2555d

Vanessa, I think a museum or facility for local history is a delightful idea, even better that it could actually be housed is a piece of local history. Just wonderful.Sadly, from the 'return on investment' perspective, I don't think it'll appeal to whoever might take it on. Remember that line about the people who know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing? *sigh*

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2555d

Interesting you mentioning about how Ballymore may not have given much thought as to how to utilise St. Lawrence's church.My husband's family came from the narrow-boats that plied their trade up and down the Grand Union Canal which of course has a junction at Brentford. Brentford's past with much river and canal industry has largely been downplayed in the urge to gentrify and make a bomb with too many poncy flats. What about someone thinking about a museum/education/local history facility of that past, I'll bet there's quite a few locals still around who could and would contribute, it's such a shame that all that will disappear.

Vanessa Smith ● 2555d

Thank you, Mr Lambert, for that thorough and concise summation.First, I should clarify that I'm not the johnny-come-lately that some might imagine: I've lived in the neighbouring areas for 50 years (although a Brentford resident for only six of those). I attended primary school in Brentford and have, on occasion, worked here as well. I remember being taken on a school trip to visit Pharos Marine in (I think) Dock Road, which led me to have an interest in Brentford's industrial and riverside past. I loved the buildings and the rich, albeit gritty, history of the area. I have a feeling that I may well be older than you, Mr Lambert, and have been hanging around here for longer!Second, it's no front-page scoop that Brentford has suffered disgracefully from neglect and underfunding. Post-war regeneration in the town centre was largely second-rate and did nothing to encourage yer actual regeneration. For decades, the area has been failed by those charged to represent and care for it. All of which brings us to now. South side is a done deal. Whilst it's encouraging that there is forward movement, I can't help but feel saddened by what is proposed. To use the phrase of the moment, it really does fail to 'spark joy'. If the architectural renderings are anything to go by, the design and planning is mediocre and quotidian and it will date fast and badly. It's highly unlikely to become the vibrant plaza that every developer seems to include in their brochures. My feeling is that it will (in short years) come to be seen as a huge mistake, by which time - actually, by this summer - everything of curiosity and charm will be gone. Please let me be clear here - I'm not Prince Charles and I don't want Poundbury. (HRH's favourite architect Quinlan Terry's riverside development in Richmond is but one step above the Kentucky-Fried Georgian developments of the 1980s - called 'hypothetical houses' by a mate of mine.)I'm not advocating smug Victorian Twee über alles. I love a mix of old and new, of the grittily industrial, perfectly-proportioned historic and clever, witty new - THAT'S vibrant - and that's why these schemes fall at the first hurdle; bland, homogenous and lowest common denominator. In other words, lazy. Very, very lazy.As someone said elsewhere, top-down schemes seldom work. There's no room for the organic creation of spaces that fit the needs of the residents, merely the imposition of designated spaces for what its creators deem appropriate civic engagement. I'm afraid I shan't be joining anyone for tai-chi in the square. (I know... please swallow your disappointment.)What's left is the fate of the Morrison's site. I'm sensing distinctly cold feet on the part of the developer, but we shall see. Mozza's needs some love but, right now, it fulfils our most necessary civic function and is something of a community hub. If someone could get a Post Office in there, many problems would be solved. My main point here hinges on what is to replace Morrisons. The area needs a full-service supermarket; Aldi and Lidl, whilst having their plusses, cannot be relied upon to stock basic ingredients on a regular basis. I gather it's lovely to go there and find charcuterie and smoked fish at knock-down prices, but it does not fulfil shopping needs across the board which - for the most part - Morrison's does. I like shopping in the area (we have no car) but nothing will push me to Chiswick (or online - which, to date, we've resisted) faster than the loss of the one fully-functional retail opportunity nearby - and absolute balls to despised Tesco and a shuttle-bus. (Also, Morrison's have been trailblazers in reducing packaging and single-use plastics. They're pretty forward-looking about that sort of thing. I like them.)Since it's faintly pointless to waste any further time or energy over Ballymore, focus now lies with Essential Living. I look forward to hearing more. I think.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2557d

I believe it is the whole facade.No, neither Natwest nor the Post Office will be kept. I understand these better because they went through planning when I was on the committee (the main scheme predates me).The scheme calls for a widening of the pavement at that point, which means they could not be retained as is. We discussed the possibility of rebuilding the NatWest frontage a little further back but (I) was persuaded against that, mainly because it would be hard to find a tenant: viable as a bank (but banks are closing branches not opening them, and even banks want a more open frontage these days) but not as a shop. Difficult as a restaurant and the obvious place for restaurants/cafes/bars will be down by the river/canal. Frankly, we didn't discuss the PO in the same way because none of us thought it (the building, not the PO as a service)  was worth saving.Yes, the vicarage will be demolished, and yes, the church is formally listed and is safe, though I don't think Ballymore have truly worked out how to reuse it - it was slated as a gym, I think.I presume you mean the window surrounds that poke out above the hoarding opposite Morrisons? There used to be a long-derelict house there (weirdly, if you approach from the West on Google Street View and look towards it from approx Goddards you can see an image of what was there - if you get to the Beehive, it is gone, then makes a brief reappearance when you're right outside!). I believe the upper floors were demolished to make the structure safe though there will be more cynical views. The Georgian (?) buildings between there and Dock Road will stay but that 'fragment' will not.Whilst I understand the concerns you have for the south side of the High Street, having lived and worked around here for about 40 years I am strongly of the view that the net effect of the changes will be hugely positive. I have heard many others support that view, though clearly we have now entered a very unhappy period whilst demolition and reconstruction commences.

Guy Lambert ● 2557d

I understood too that Cathja was moving as it hosted The Restart Project with/for? BRAG recently where people can take along their electrical/electronic items requiring a bit of tlc to find help in getting them working again - which apparently was a success but another one can't be organised until they have new premises.  https://therestartproject.org

Philippa Bond ● 2557d

Good news indeed, Mr Lambert. I hope not just the ground-level facade that will be preserved. I wonder if you have any information regarding the NatWest building and the Victorian structure housing the former Post Office? Will the facades, at least, be kept? If so, it would mitigate, to a very small degree, Ballymore's plans for that area (if the renderings they have provided are accurate).Also, a brief glance through some planning documents suggests that the vicarage adjacent to St Lawrence's church is slated for demolition. Whilst it's not awe-inspiring, it's a solid-looking building which would seem to me a prime property for conversion into flats. Can you tell me what the rationale is behind this proposal? Is the church still safe?One last - the warehouse-like building (with the Ballymore hoardings) opposite the Beehive and Morrisons has, at ground level, a small piece of a mid/late Georgian facade poking above a fence. Can you tell me what happened here? Are there any plans to keep or utilise this architectural fragment?I'm sorry to bombard you with questions, but it seems to me that you have the best handle on accurate information. I'll look forward to hearing from you.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2557d

The facade of the former Cathja shop is listed (whether locally or formally I can't remember). Whatever, it will be preserved and restored as part of the new scheme with a new structure behind it.

Guy Lambert ● 2558d

The Age Concern shop has re-opened and Cathja is looking for new premises. You can follow them on Facebook.I think the windows of the Cathja shop, which used to me a car wheel shop, are listed in some way.

Keith Iddon ● 2558d

The Age UK shop closed some weeks ago - as we discovered when we tried to make a donation. Now Cathja is closed, there doesn't seem to be another charity shop in the area.I believe the Cathja building is listed, although that doesn't seem to mean very much any more. If it is safe, I hope it receives thorough and sensitive refurbishment. It's a fine frontage and the curved glass windows are beautiful. The upstairs part is very lovely too (from the front), albeit needing some work. It deserves preservation.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2558d

Many thanks for the info regarding that charity shop. I went in there from time to time it had some interesting stuff in there sometimes. I thought that the building might of been a listed building.

Stephen Scott ● 2558d

The charity shop you speak of (Cathja) is no longer there. I don't know whether it has moved to new premises and if so, where. What they will have done with all the stuff if they don't have new premises is a wonder in itself. Maybe some went to the Age UK shop in the Albany Parade.

Anne England ● 2558d

Wow so all the shops have now gone on the South Side of the high street. While it was never the best high street it had some handy shops. I moved away from Brentford last March and most of the south side shops were still open when i moved away. The high street must look like a right old dump now. When did Castle Pizza go? and the shop on the corner that sold house goods(next to the bank) go?  Is the Charity Shop roughly oppisite Costcutter still there?

Stephen Scott ● 2558d

Now all the shops have left, I understand that Ballymore will start the redevelopment in the middle of May.That's if you can believe a word they say, which I find difficult at the best of times.It makes one wonder why the shops couldn't have been given another couple of months, maybe 10 weeks longer to ply their trade. I wonder if we will still be watching tumbleweed blowing down the high st. this time next year..I wouldn't bet against it.

Keith Iddon ● 2558d

We have to pick our battles. People have been waiting for works to happen in Brentford for years.  A lot of time has been spent on the compulsory purchasing and demolition of buildings. I'm sure that there are some battles that will still need to be fought. The Isleworth Society have just won one.Some of the buildings now proposed but not yet built should probably be re-looked at for their ability to deal with very hot and very cold weather.  New buildings recently have been designed to keep heat in... but the weather this summer was hot and single aspect design and a significantly reduced airflow throughout each property can be a problem. This should be addressed at the design stage so it doesn't become a problem later. Increased numbers of high rises will further increase the temperature - why we need to keep our greenery and keep on planting trees and valuing our parks ... and consider artificial shading.

Philippa Bond ● 2558d

Just grabbed a final sausage roll from Greggs and bade the staff farewell and good luck. They close for good in 15 minutes from now, the last unit left on the south side of the high street. Once proud Brentford now a wasteland. :-(

Mike Paterson ● 2558d

But we look to landowners to keep their publicly facing property respectable. We have asked the landowners to attend to the police station site, though it would be better if they took some care without prompting.Dogged work, mainly from residents involved with Air Quality Brentford, finally persuaded Sunley Properties to put a board round the little island at the bottom of Lionel Road North.Of course it would be better if it was turned into a green space but at least it's no longer a mecca for flytipping.

Guy Lambert ● 2559d

For reasons unknown some of the bins around Green Dragon were removed last year and replaced only after a lot of hassling. I first came aware of the bin directly outside the school when (shortly after I was first elected) I saw a mum from the school circling it trying to find a space to squeeze in the bit of paper she wanted to get rid of. In the end she put it in her handbag.I asked H Highways to either provide more bins or empty them more regularly and I think it's now a bigger bin.I don't check all the bins every day ( :-) ) but my impression is that bin emptying is now pretty reliable in Brentford following Hounslow Highways putting more resource on it. This (Netley Road shops/Green Dragon school) area is on the 'border' between Hounslow Highways (a private company on a PFI contract) and Hounslow Housing (part of the council) and we are working to eliminate problems caused by these borders, the placement of some of which seems toweringly silly - EG Burford Road where the road is H Highways and the parking layby for about 4 cars is H Housing!.Interested in other people's perceptions.I remain of the view that the vast majority of people deal responsibly with litter if sensible facilities are provided. However, irresponsible behaviour is highly contagious.

Guy Lambert ● 2559d

It is difficult to do much with the people… but surely something can and should be done. As an example – Green Dragon Primary School. There is a bin in front that regularly gets overflown. And the little green lawn in front often has litter on it. I reported this issue a few times and Guy was very helpful in getting the area cleaned and bins emptied. However, who overflows the bins and litters on the lawn? Can the school politely work with the kids (and may be even parents) to promote considerate behaviour?

Alex Shpinkov ● 2559d

The rubbish at the base of the old Brentford Police Station is terrible. One evening a few weeks ago I was walking home from the Black Dog, a car pulled up beside the Old Police Station, a car window was opened, a bottle or bottles were thrown out adding to the debris. I heard the bottle(s) break.I agree with Adam, it is people that create this mess.

Christopher Hugh Dakers ● 2559d

And for some reason some areas in Brentford still look nice and neat, but many look like dumps and fly tips. Even in one development (e.g. GWQ) some buildings and surroundings look neat and some don't...

Alex Shpinkov ● 2560d

No offence taken about Holland Gardens, more surprise.I've lived here since September 2002, in the first building built within HG, and personally I think it's one of the nicer 'new' developments.  As with every new build it has its faults, but "falling to bits from the start ?" - the only longstanding problem has been the ventilation system to the flats and associated mould around some windows.The pedestrian access known as Chapel Lane which runs through HG to me is one of the nicest parts of Brentford, albeit ruined by the decaying and unkempt Travelodge on North Road.The biggest problems with HG in my view are the ever increasing transient population, a minority of residents of the social housing block opposite that live up to all the stereotypes (and I really feel for the many genuine people that have to share that building with those residents who ensure a weekly visit to that block by multiple police), ever increasing traffic and anti-social behaviour on the main road outside, and the explosion of deliveries and delivery services that has happened in the last 10 years or so.Bar the last one, which is primarily down to new technology and change in consumer behaviour, all the other problems with HG are down to people.But everyone's view is different - to me apart from being tall the Shard is architecturally nothing special, and to be blunt with afew exceptions, and based on photos I've seen of what I'd call 'industrial' Brentford, there's very little of historic, heritage or architectural merit within a town which will always be a place that people will primarily pass through.  Brentford isn't a destination now and isn't going to be a destination in the future, and personally I wish people would accept that and not get carried away with notions of the town as some kind of rival to Chiswick, Richmond or Kingston.In terms of the bigger picture everything in big cities, but especially London these days, is about cramming in as many people as want to be there.  The perfect example being the trains, when I first moved here the train service was less frequent than now and would be either 4 or 8 carriages.  Now there's more trains and they're either 5 or 10 carriages long.  Up until I become self-employed just under 2 years ago I commuted most days into town, and if I went by train (which I rarely did as I preferred to go round by the Overground from Gunnersbury and walk over 30 minutes to my office) during the morning commute we'd be squashed like sardines by Putney.  So now the new trains have got less seating space and more standing space, purely so they've got bigger capacity.And so it goes on, yet, and it genuinely bemuses me, people seem to accept having so little personal space, as though the trade off of living in one of the world's biggest cities is worth it.  It's like with flats built under prior approval, some developers have completely exploited that and squeezed as many units in a building as possible (with those units sometimes being 1/2 the size of what is required if those units required full planning permission) and yet people are happy to pay silly money to say "I own my own place in London" despite the fact it's a shoebox.  I guess it all comes down to what's important to different people, and whilst I never lose sight of the fact that we actually live in or near to one of the nicest parts of London, for me I can't wait to move away.

Adam Beamish ● 2560d

I think Brentford is done for now im afraid and its only going to get worse in Brentford before it hopefully gets better. Not much thought have been given to the Brentford people who will have to live through all of this. I lived in Brentford for around eight years and i have a lot of time for the place and its really sad to see whats happening and not happening in Brentford.

Stephen Scott ● 2560d

Sorry, Iain... I'm a relative newbie. What do I know? I've waited this long simply because it felt unseemly to jump in with only a few years of residency. I (clearly mistakenly) felt the time was right.But... if those facades are destroyed, it's vandalism. It's very, very wrong and there's no excuse for it. Here's the curious thing: if I want to make changes to my own property, I would (most likely) need to gain planning permission. And if I wanted to radically alter my Victorian terrace house - especially at the front - aesthetics would be a major issue. There'd be a terrific hoo-hah about making sure the changes were in keeping with the area, the age of the building, surrounding properties and so forth. There'd be plenty to say. These points don't seem to matter one jot in the BHS proposals.I didn't know that Adam lived in Holland Gardens, and it wasn't at all my intention to offend, but my feelings stand. It wasn't well built, hasn't aged well and I - personally - find it depressing.ANYHOW... from the responses, it appears that it's a lost cause and all a bit pointless. What a shame. Let's wrap it up here, so it doesn't turn into a vast, unpleasant slanging match. Thanks for your input, everyone. It's been enlightening.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2560d

Sadly Tracie you are about 13 years too late to the debate. Take a look at the web records of the High Street Steering Group which recently wound itself up. https://www.coactivate.org/projects/brentfordhighstreet/project-homeAs part of the Ballymore land swap the Natwest and post office will be demolished for an (over dense) council owned block of affordable flats. The facades were originally to be retained. I do not like the Morrisons replacement either but the planning authority has little control over aesthetics. Brentford Community Council do a lot of good work examining and commenting on larger planning applications including giving evidence at appeals. http://www.brentfordcc.org.uk/ (but their site is temporarily unavailable) So you are not alone in your thoughts. I do not share all of them but London desperately needs more housing. PS, Adam has been quite open in the past that he lives in Holland Gardens.......

Iain Muir ● 2560d

As a committee member of The Isleworth Society I think you may have hit on a way forward. As many people will know TIS were instrumental is defeating the Duke of Northumberland's plans to build on allotments with the consequent possible damage to a Grade 1 listed landscape in Syon Park. Had it not been for TIS garnering local support and the strength of the arguments against the original planning application to Hounslow council this damaging development may well have gone ahead. Planning officers actually made a recommendation for approval and TIS lobbied councillors and used the force of the arguments to get councillors to support the refusal.Protecting your local environment is an ongoing battle, and like Isleworth Brentford has a conservation area and is also under never-ending pressure of developments. If local people don't at least try and influence what happens around them then complaining is pointless. Good Luck.

Vanessa Smith ● 2560d

Christopher, this is true. But what's the solution? Give up on everything?

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2560d

Adam - your last post makes sad and difficult reading.I readily agree with you when you say that 'people' are a problem. Anti-social behaviour (and I'd include fly-tipping in that category) comes from people and, like it or not, a great many people are just bloody awful and ruin things for others. ('Ruin' is, of course, subjective.)As I stated in another post, I'm not anti-progress. I don't have a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to modern architecture. Indeed, I like some of it very much. (I'm an architect's daughter and my late father could certainly have been described as a modernist, if not a brutalist - he dealt with a lot of post-war regeneration, so I understand a little about the subject. And I'm sure you know that 60s brutalism is very much in vogue right now.)My issue here centres upon context. I don't shriek when I go into central London; Centrepoint is sort of magnificent and the Shard is beautiful - as beautiful as 20 Fenchurch and St Mary Axe are grim. I love the South Bank and think that the National Theatre is a masterpiece... the imprint of the wooden planks in the concrete shows humanity, warmth and thoughtfulness. You get my drift. But this is central London, not a small postcode of historical significance, a stone's throw from a World Heritage site.What does offend me is the imposition of wildly overscaled, dismally unimaginative and shoddily built developments, with no thought to the future. These buildings will overtake they skyline, dwarf the existing buildings and turn the High Street into a corridor, create wind-tunnels and daylight-blocking and look like rope within a decade.Please don't try to tell me this isn't the case - just take a look at Holland Gardens, where time has not been kind. In fact, I used to know a couple who moved to Holland Gardens before it even had a postcode. I helped them move in. My first surprise was that, despite not being super-tall, I could touch the ceiling with the flat of my hand. Within a couple of days, their apartment was flooded from above, a problem that was never satisfactorily resolved. The place was falling to bits from the get-go and a river view didn't compensate in the slightest. They hated it. (Having said that, I think the Heritage Walk development looks pretty nice, although I've only seen it from a distance.) The proposals for BHS make depressing reading, as it is as plain as day that they're just not going to work. It's an insanity that they were ever approved - and you've just admitted this yourself! 'And there's another 900 flats at BFC, along with all those at Capital Interchange Way, Wheatstone House, the 200 unit prior approval of the former Worley Parsons offices that boasts about being next to the green space that is Gunnersbury Park which has already been ruined by over-population and all the 'improvements' - so the decline is only going to continue.'So, it's a mess. I completely understand your conflict and I'm absolutely not pointing a finger. The problem is that 'people' are always going to be in the mix - it's the curse of the built environment. And by approving developments that are destined to fail in some way or another, it fails everyone. What to do?What Brentford needs in proportionate, sympathetic development that allows for the area's rich history to be at the fore. In this I would absolutely include the building opposite the Beehive (the one with the hoardings - I look at that and think what a brilliant workspace it could be, or fantastic loft-style apartments with a bit of grit and edge), the NatWest Building and the structure that housed the Post Office. And if someone tells me that refurbishment would cost more than demolition and rebuilding, then that says to me that the proposed replacement will be shamefully poor. I've been saddened by the responses here. I just felt a great wave of love for this unhappy, neglected area. I hoped others would too. I'd fight for it, but if the consensus is that it's pointless, I'll just bow out of the debate. Hope things get better for you, Adam.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2560d

I think that you have a better chance of a community in streets of terraced houses or similar.

Christopher Hugh Dakers ● 2560d

Obviously to an extent I'm professionally conflicted as my job involves working on behalf of developers to obtain planning permission on residential, commercial and mixed use schemes.But nevertheless I think it's too easy to point the finger of blame at the planning system, Councils or developers for what I regard as the failures of society.I spent over 10 years on the Residents Association here, and in the end I couldn't see the point in continuing.  Every committee member (including myself) has to an extent their own agenda, and for all the efforts the committee put in the blunt reality is that the only concern of the majority of owners is the size of the service charge, and most tenants don't give a damn as the development is just a transient stepping stone.So often myself, my client and other professionals will fight tooth and nail to obtain planning permission for a commercial development and I'll stand up at committee waxing lyrical about how my clients have litter management schemes and such like in place.  I know from my long-term relationship with such clients that they are committed to such schemes.6 months after the development is completed I'll go and have a nose and the place looks like a war zone, there's staff doing their best but the general public couldn't care less and I find it almost embarrassing after everything I said.A classic example closer to home is the railway embankment on the south side of the footbridge next to Carville Hall Park South/GWQ - it is permanently flytipped.  I believe I've seen Council officials examining the rubbish looking for evidence as to the source etc, and sometimes for 24 hours it's cleared, yet within a matter of days it's back again.Yes the Council should CCTV the area and yes offenders should be punished, but it's 'twisted' that it happens in the first place, and it happens because of the amount of morons out there who couldn't give a damn about their environment.  And there's another 900 flats at BFC, along with all those at Capital Interchange Way, Wheatstone House, the 200 unit prior approval of the former Worley Parsons offices that boasts about being next to the green space that is Gunnersbury Park which has already been ruined by over-population and all the 'improvements' - so the decline is only going to continue.And it isn't only here, my job takes me all over the place so I'm not blinkered, but to me Brentford has become a horrible place because of people.

Adam Beamish ● 2560d

Martin - I'll drop you a line.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2560d

Good idea and I seem to remember a previous thread from you on this (looking for a new name?). Whatever, I'm just thinking that you might get others to respond if you were to start a new thread with Civic Society for Brentford as the title.

Anne England ● 2560d

Debates about urban regeneration and localism have raised concerns about the capacity of local government to deliver economic growth and rebuild civic pride. Top down regeneration doesn’t work. Unless the process engages local people, and unless they take it on it simply unravels when the suits all leave – and leave they will. I’ve been thinking for some time about creating some form of a Civic Society for Brentford, as I believe there’s an enormous reservoir of locked up imagination and energy for good in Brentford which would be great to harness and release. If you’re interested in meeting up to discuss taking this further then please mail me at caseym@blueyonder.co.uk

Martin Case ● 2560d

Thanks, Anne... hope to be able to attend.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2560d

All of those with something to say go along to the Brentford Area Forum tomorrow evening (Thurs.) at the Blue School, North Street, Isleworth. Talk will be/include Ballymore High Street plans. Starts 7.30p.m.

Anne England ● 2560d

Cathy - my exact thought! Could the frontages not be kept? (Actually, the whole of the NatWest building is fantastic. I remember going in there for the first time and thinking what an amazing space it was.)I'm absolutely not anti-progress, not one bit. But wilful destruction of wonderful things, to be replaced by demonstrably lacklustre ones, seems ludicrous to me. The stretch between Paddy Power and the pub (I forget its name) is pretty grim and could do with a bit of work.But do you think there's still time to save a little of the south side?

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2560d

Adam - I hear you and I'm so sorry you feel that way. It is terrible. It's an issue I feel quite strongly about and which won't be helped by the proposed developments, particularly with the off-plan, offshore nature of many of the sales - a transient, bubble-dwelling population with absentee landlords who don't care one jot about the environment in which they live. As to problems with street crime and anti-social behaviour, it's not restricted to the developments or to social housing. I'm no longer sanguine about visiting the corner shop after dark - and this in what I have recently learned is called 'sought-after Brentford Village'. You're right in what you say. But what can be done? Anything at all? More thorough and visible policing might help with some of it (just look what's happening in Chiswick since the police station closed down and there's less of a beat presence on the streets), but there's no funding for it. Is everything just going to disappear down the rabbit hole of gangs, drugs and crime? Or is it just NIMBYism masquerading as concern?I had a feeling that my original post would prompt responses that were infused with anger, depression and defeat and that's what's happened. The public meeting about the Morrison's development was an eye-opener; massive, justified opposition, informed, eloquent rebuttals (I'm thinking here of the fantastic address given by the headmaster of St Paul's primary school) and a very poor performance by the representatives from developers Essential Living. In a sane world, it would have been a landslide to the residents, but was water off a duck's back. It made me feel disenfranchised and hopeless.I've lived in Brentford for 6 years now (Ealing and Chiswick before then) and must say that - on balance - I've never liked a place better. We love our house and our road and we want to continue enjoying living here, but something's gotta give. Riding roughshod over the feelings of the people who live and work here, by organisations who just see the area as an ATM, or those who plough on with changes regardless of the impact the have on others (the school floodlights, for example) simply won't do. But what's the answer? Someone must have some ideas.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2561d

"I have come to despise living here, and it's not because of the buildings or the developments, it's because of the people."Indeed Adam. It's (as it always is) about the people. And it seems like it is getting worse for some reason...

Alex Shpinkov ● 2561d

Watermans has been trying really hard over the last 12 months and its Friday night events are popular and diverse.  The cinema on Mondays is packed, and the staff are friendly and engaging.  I give them 10/10 for effort in the face of funding challenges and a building getting scruffier and scruffier.  I don't know where Adam lives but sympathise.  If it's GWQ, then I recall the conversations that took place before it was built and the promises made.  I too have lived in Brentford for 16 years and South Ealing for 20 years before that.  Fully agree with all the comments above about lost opportunities re the High Street, and the glass and unimaginative glass boxes that will arrive one day.  We vote in our Councillors so have only ourselves to blame if those with imagination and the relevant skills don't put themselves forward to fight for our architectural heritage.  For the money Ballymore will be spending building the glass monstrosities, refurb or recreation where refurb is not possible should surely have been possible.  Keep those street frontages with merit and beauty: they can be kitted out with all mod-cons and space behind the walls.  In a town with its centre a major road, small units with an identifiable and unique presence are far preferable to a glass frontage.  And don't get me started on the temptation to vandals of all that glass....

Cathy Jones ● 2561d

When I moved to Brentford 16 years ago, into a new development, there was a degree of "community" within the development itself.  We set up a Residents Association, and at the first meeting about setting that up over 100 residents turned up.  For several years afterwards I felt I knew alot of people who lived in the development and that community spirit continued.Now I feel that spirit has completely gone.  So many of the properties are rented out to people who have no interest in engaging with other residents, we fight an ongoing battle with new people moving in who don't think and don't bother to ask about how to dispose of rubbish responsibly and such like, and just leave it to the concierge or other employees or residents who do care to sort it out.When we have a residents meeting it's the same small handful of people that turn up, and there's always afew randoms who turn up solely to moan about the service charge and then storm out theatrically.Even my neighbours, who I've always got on well with since they moved in, are in their process of having their  laminate flooring replaced so for the last 3 days we'd have noise and disturbance throughout the day (and I work from home) didn't even have the courtesy to knock on our day to forewarn us of this work - a small gesture goes a long way.The police make an almost weekly visit to the social block opposite, last week there was a full-scale punch-up on the road directly outside and 2 of the guys involved were harboured by someone in the social housing block whilst waiting for the ambulance to come and treat their injuries.  This morning at 1am there was what I assume to be the culmination of a road road incident whereby one car deliberately crashed into another car in our visitor parking area, cue lots of shouting etc. from those involved and from residents telling them to take their argument elsewhere.  And where was our 24h concierge during this ? - probably asleep at their desk rather than going out and having a polite word with these people.We can talk until the cows come home about greedy developers, but for me it all boils down to humanity, and  it's my firm personal view that the more population grows and the more selfish we all become (particular given these unstable economic times) the notion of community is dead and buried.I have come to despise living here, and it's not because of the buildings or the developments, it's because of the people.

Adam Beamish ● 2561d

I'm with you on this, Philippa... and I absolutely agree that while people are suffering from food and housing insecurity, prattling on about the arts is insensitive and irrelevant. Except it isn't really, and Watermans was a side issue to my main points. There is indeed a growing population, but I don't see this massive development (devoid of meaningful infrastructure) as catering to a need for housing. It seems to be a grab for relatively cheap land and for the benefit of shareholders - although I do sense a hint of cold feet from Brentford's developers. To borrow from Mrs Trump (and I apologise for that) I just want Brentford to be better. The new-builds will come, but to trash what's there to put up very poor buildings which will look like tripe within a decade doesn't seem the way to do it. I think of the expensive refurb which was supposed to herald an 'artisan bakery'. (I know - I can't stand the word 'artisan' either.) A fortnight after opening, I went to buy a loaf. When I finally got someone to acknowledge me, they looked horrified. Bread? Here? No! But why not? Went there for brunch once - and once only. Utterly shambolic. I know TW8 isn't a hub for fine dining, but you'd think you could get a cracking fry-up. There's already a huge waterside development with two restaurants; the place looks as if it's been neutron bombed - all the buildings, no people, no buzz. It could be Petit Marseille... but, instead, it's sad.It isn't working for Brentford. And if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, then this is insanity.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2561d

It's so strange, Jennifer. I recall the opening of Watermans - an excellent team leading it and such potential. Under the circumstances they still do really well.  I remember seeing some wonderful studio theatre productions there (Miriam Margolyes playing Gertrude Stein, for one), and some exciting cinema programming. (They never did *quite* as well with visual arts, but... never mind.) Perhaps hoping for it to be a miniature South Bank was too much to hope for, but it could have been a dupe for Riverside Studios, which was always vibrant and interesting, despite being quite tucked away. The thing is that Riverside was 'hip' and a destination - something Watermans never quite achieved and, admittedly, it did always resemble a student union bar. In terms of its design, it was very much a product of its time. The other thing that kills me is 'I am not a car park' - I know it's supposed to be ironic, but inaccessibility never did the Barbican any harm.I just don't see what relocation will achieve... as well as the transport and parking issues, there's nothing that couldn't be done for Watermans by keeping it there, refurbing properly and funding for excellence - whether it's via the Arts Council, lottery funding or private donations.

Tracie Dudley Craig ● 2561d

Sorry that sounds rather defeatist now.  You do have to make sure that you have a strong community in order to challenge decisions and to show that there are alternatives.

Philippa Bond ● 2561d

Don't it always seem to be that you don't know what you've got till its gone...We have to embrace change as there is a growing population -and there are constant power struggles between Government and Councils over funding and plans.  There are those which are local, those which are governmental and those which are global.  They all have to fit together.Agree with Jennifer over Watermans but think you will find that it was a trade-off for something else and unless the community takes more interest in the future of more than just their own lives it is difficult to see how it will happen.  It is harder to have vision when you are depending on a food bank for food and are homeless (and homeless doesn't necessarily mean don't have any roof over your head) or are striving to try to avoid that situation. Everybody wants someone else to do it for them and there is so much bureaucracy now.

Philippa Bond ● 2561d

"Could some money be poured into Watermans to turn it into the Little South Bank that it could and should be? "The answer to that is a BIG NO!  I'd been advocating just that years ago but it fell on deaf ears.  That entire Waterman's area could and should have been turned into a must visit destination, an art centre, a cinema, a decent riverside restaurant, a cafe and bar with lovely riverside views.  NO, it was not wanted said the powers that be, it had to be an arts centre in the centre of Brentford, in a huge concrete block of flats in a side road with no parking!

Jennifer Selig ● 2561d