Forum Topic

Candidates for the Osterley and Spring Grove by- election

As the ICG candidate for this election I have taken it upon myself to do a bit of research to find out a bit more about my opponents. The obvious starting point was the article in the Brentford, Chiswick and Isleworth Times this week. The article gave a comprehensive write up about Sheila O'Reilly (Conservative Party) and I but only a couple of lines on the other two candidates only mentioning their names.My next port of call was the official web sites of the three opposing parties. The Hounslow Conservative's site was quite informative and had a pretty comprehensive write up about Sheila O'Reilly. The Hounslow Lib Dem's site was very informative, that is if you want to find out about anything other than Naseem Pankhida. The Lib Dem's home page states "Our ongoing campaign to keep in touch with local residents across the borough - all year round". My search under "by-election" came up with all of their recent results but not a single mention of the forthcoming by-election and their candidate. So much for keeping us in touch!. Finally I braced myself and visited the Hounslow Labour Party web site. I needn't have worried as this site is completely out of date. I did manage to do the Young Labour quiz that was probably compiled in 1997 but my search for information about Bandana Chopra was futile.My last cance of finding out anything else about my three opponents seems to be the London Boruogh of Hounslow web site. However I shall have to wait until Monday to see if it has been updated.This exercise has led me to one conclusion. The only party to make any effort in this by-election, apart from the ICG, so far is the Conservatives.Finally if anyone wants to find out a bit more about me you can vist www.votecommunity.org.uk or you can join in my weekly discussion forum at www.icgforum.org.uk on Monday between 7 and 8pm.    

Andrew Sibley ● 7769d175 Comments

The Conservatives are very well thought of in this area.  The Councillors are long standing representatives, very experienced and are individually regarded having their own track record beyond the party political squabbles.  Cllr Barbara Reid even popped over to meet Mother-In-Law after her fall on the grotty pavements of the area ... but that is another story......

Sarah Felstead ● 7769d

Fair enough Sarah, your choice is respected.I wish all the Conservative, Lib Dem and Labour voters would identify themselves on this forum.  It would save hours of canvassing time...

Phil Andrews ● 7769d

...somebody will be very pleased that you didn't change the heading on your last message! ... ... ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-) ;-)  ;-)

Sarah Felstead ● 7769d

Silly!

Phil Andrews ● 7769d

..you were right when you said that you like to have the last word!

Sarah Felstead ● 7768d

Yes.

Phil Andrews ● 7768d

...the Labour Party does badly.Its important that the local electorate are made aware of the long list of unsatisfactory  practices of the Labour Group...within the London Borough of Hounslow,their disdain for a large part of the local population.. and the shortcomings of their performances."Whatever you do Sir (or Madam)...even if you don't vote for me...don't vote for the local New Labour.

Jim Lawes ● 7768d

We will do our utmost in this department.  Whilst there are things the Conservatives and Lib Dems do which we would do differently, there is no comparison between the way in which these parties conduct themselves and the antics of New Labour in recent months and years.  The latter has become an organisation completely devoid of scruple or principle, to which character assassination and the lie have become accepted means of political engagement, and which repays the trust of its own voters by fleecing them both for the private gain of its members and as for its political use as a party.  Their self-imposed absence from this forum following Vanessa's faux pas demonstrates the total contempt which those who run the shameful and thoroughly discredited operation that is New Labour in Hounslow have for the very people whose votes they still have the front to ask for.We in the ICG are fighting this by-election with one eye on the main local elections of 2006.  Few (other than David Giles) believe that the Conservatives have what it takes to more than double their numbers and take over thirty seats next year.  The Lib Dems, whilst making steady progress, are a very long way from achieving an overall majority on the council.  There HAS to be co-operation if honest government is to be restored to the London Borough of Hounslow.  We, all of us, have a DUTY to the people of this borough to do whatever is in our power to bring this about.We don't wish to provoke an argument with the Conservatives, but our view is that they have been slow to recognise or to accept the reality of the situation.  Rightly or wrongly, they sometimes give off an impression that they are happier being in perpetual opposition to New Labour than they would be as part of a new and honest administration in which every party or group – including New Labour if they were interested – could play a constructive part.Criticism has been aimed at the ICG for “splitting the vote” in Hounslow South and creating the possibility of doing likewise here in Osterley.  Unfortunately the critics never attempt to see things from our point of view.  They ask for and expect our unquestioning co-operation, whilst offering nothing whatsoever in return.They ask why we have not approached the Conservatives to discuss our concerns and ideas.  In fact we have.  An approach was made to the Leader of the Conservative Group in 2002 with a view to relieving New Labour of positions of office on the Isleworth & Brentford Area Committee, where between us we hold six seats.  After some deliberation, the Conservatives decided that they would prefer to work with Labour than with us.  It was only because, sensing the Conservatives’ moral weakness, New Labour moved for complete control of the Committee earlier this year that the Conservatives were forced into a “deal” of sorts in which an independent (but non-ICG) councillor was elected as Chair and a Conservative as Vice Chair.  Only the unselfish goodwill of the ICG made such an arrangement possible.It may well be that the Conservative Group has changed its mind since the events of 2002, but if so it is incumbent upon them to inform us.  Having tried once, we do not intend to humiliate ourselves by repeatedly begging for their co-operation only to be consistently rebuffed.  It is reasonable for us to presume that until we are told the Conservative position has changed, it remains the same.A by-election provides an ideal opportunity for us to demonstrate that we are a force in our own right which needs to be taken into account when considering how best to set about removing the pernicious influence of cronyism in Hounslow and dismantling the nepotistic structures which it has erected around itself over past decades.  And of course to replace it with honest local government by people of goodwill who place the welfare of its citizens above all else, even if it means that there will be differences, and sometimes vigorous debate, about how best we achieve this.Whatever happens at this by-election New Labour will still control Hounslow council and Osterley & Spring Grove will still have at least two Conservative members.  New elections will take place in nine months’ time.  A good ICG vote, even if it results in the Conservatives temporarily losing a seat to New Labour, will be a positive step if it helps persuade the Conservatives that they need to concern themselves less about being called names by New Labour, and more about preparing to replace them.The ICG campaign at this by-election will concentrate on exposing the activities of New Labour, and if we do not win then it is our preference that New Labour should not either.  However our main concern is that constructive dialogue should result from the contest in good time for next May, because once the selection process has begun it will be difficult to reverse.Whichever way one looks at it, the best outcome for voters who wish to see the vicious and self-serving New Labour monolith dismantled - and decency and ethical values prevail in local government in Hounslow - would be a strong vote for the ICG.Or to put it another way - in the interests of unity, support your community!

P. O'Neill ● 7768d

We will do our utmost in this department.  Whilst there are things the Conservatives and Lib Dems do which we would do differently, there is no comparison between the way in which these parties conduct themselves and the antics of New Labour in recent months and years.  The latter has become an organisation completely devoid of scruple or principle, to which character assassination and the lie have become accepted means of political engagement, and which repays the trust of its own voters by fleecing them both for the private gain of its members and as for its political use as a party.  Their self-imposed absence from this forum following Vanessa's faux pas demonstrates the total contempt which those who run the shameful and thoroughly discredited operation that is New Labour in Hounslow have for the very people whose votes they still have the front to ask for.We in the ICG are fighting this by-election with one eye on the main local elections of 2006.  Few (other than David Giles) believe that the Conservatives have what it takes to more than double their numbers and take over thirty seats next year.  The Lib Dems, whilst making steady progress, are a very long way from achieving an overall majority on the council.  There HAS to be co-operation if honest government is to be restored to the London Borough of Hounslow.  We, all of us, have a DUTY to the people of this borough to do whatever is in our power to bring this about.We don't wish to provoke an argument with the Conservatives, but our view is that they have been slow to recognise or to accept the reality of the situation.  Rightly or wrongly, they sometimes give off an impression that they are happier being in perpetual opposition to New Labour than they would be as part of a new and honest administration in which every party or group – including New Labour if they were interested – could play a constructive part.Criticism has been aimed at the ICG for “splitting the vote” in Hounslow South and creating the possibility of doing likewise here in Osterley.  Unfortunately the critics never attempt to see things from our point of view.  They ask for and expect our unquestioning co-operation, whilst offering nothing whatsoever in return.They ask why we have not approached the Conservatives to discuss our concerns and ideas.  In fact we have.  An approach was made to the Leader of the Conservative Group in 2002 with a view to relieving New Labour of positions of office on the Isleworth & Brentford Area Committee, where between us we hold six seats.  After some deliberation, the Conservatives decided that they would prefer to work with Labour than with us.  It was only because, sensing the Conservatives’ moral weakness, New Labour moved for complete control of the Committee earlier this year that the Conservatives were forced into a “deal” of sorts in which an independent (but non-ICG) councillor was elected as Chair and a Conservative as Vice Chair.  Only the unselfish goodwill of the ICG made such an arrangement possible.It may well be that the Conservative Group has changed its mind since the events of 2002, but if so it is incumbent upon them to inform us.  Having tried once, we do not intend to humiliate ourselves by repeatedly begging for their co-operation only to be consistently rebuffed.  It is reasonable for us to presume that until we are told the Conservative position has changed, it remains the same.A by-election provides an ideal opportunity for us to demonstrate that we are a force in our own right which needs to be taken into account when considering how best to set about removing the pernicious influence of cronyism in Hounslow and dismantling the nepotistic structures which it has erected around itself over past decades.  And of course to replace it with honest local government by people of goodwill who place the welfare of its citizens above all else, even if it means that there will be differences, and sometimes vigorous debate, about how best we achieve this.Whatever happens at this by-election New Labour will still control Hounslow council and Osterley & Spring Grove will still have at least two Conservative members.  New elections will take place in nine months’ time.  A good ICG vote, even if it results in the Conservatives temporarily losing a seat to New Labour, will be a positive step if it helps persuade the Conservatives that they need to concern themselves less about being called names by New Labour, and more about preparing to replace them.The ICG campaign at this by-election will concentrate on exposing the activities of New Labour, and if we do not win then it is our preference that New Labour should not either.  However our main concern is that constructive dialogue should result from the contest in good time for next May, because once the selection process has begun it will be difficult to reverse.Whichever way one looks at it, the best outcome for voters who wish to see the vicious and self-serving New Labour monolith dismantled - and decency and ethical values prevail in local government in Hounslow - would be a strong vote for the ICG.Or to put it another way - in the interests of unity, support your community!P. O'Neill

P. O'Neill ● 7768d

.. Bird song? Children laughing as they play on their lawns?  try overhead planes and builders noise - as you go out and about canvassing this area today... the ever lit bonfire is out at the present time (I think - well at least my kitchen does not smell as if it is beside my back door) but look at the skips left full in driveways (there is no urgency for the developers to clear them once they are full) and they have been there for weeks (there are 2 in our road). This style of working leaves the area feeling derelict and neglected as the developers rarely live in the properties using it as a home (lets face it they couldn't stand the noise they generate) whilst the work is going on - sharing and caring for the neighbourhood as a responsible neighbour.One of the greatest hazards are the smashed pavements – take great care in trying to WALK around the area as it really caters for cars.  No leadership from the Council is preventing the developers from smashing the pavements with their delivery lorries – check it out – find a development and then look at the state of the pavements outside – is there a common denominator?  Could that common denominator be tackled and save ££££ from the public purse?Don't be surprised if somebody says to you today the Council are not maintaining the pavements - I ask you, do the Council lay smashed slabs?  So where does the problem lie?You may save the public purse from paying out for your broken ankle today if you take heed and wear your hob nailed boots!  This warning on the forum may save you a great deal of pain and suffering!  Might be an idea to use the road to walk on as you go out canvassing?  You will have to do this to negotiate the parked cars across the pavements - but apparently when developing a three bed house into a 7 bed house (plus bungalow); you still only need 2 parking spaces!  Somebody floated the idea that this then 'forces' homeowners to have only 2 small cars (not family cars as that would mean having to set the side extension back to allow for the parking at the front and it is easier to get the Council to support the extra parking on the road, not the developer on their own land).  Hey! have fun, and let us know how you get on, chaps!(Bet none of you knock on our door!)

Sarah Felstead ● 7768d

This appears to me to be a rather sick joke. 'P O'Neill' was the pseudonym adopted by the IRA for their press statements. The wording of the post is so overwrought it is hard not to believe it is meant to be a spoof. I hope this isn't another of the dirty tricks that seem to have so dogged local politics over the last few years.If there really is a P O'Neill who is a member of the ICG and not the IRA my apologies but perhaps he or she should consider using their full name to avoid confusion.

Andy Jones ● 7768d

SarahIf you want people to knock on your door you shouldn't have announced whom you have already decided to vote for.  The Tories won't knock because they have your vote already, and the others will give priority to the undecideds.But thanks for the advice.  I have my boots on - just leafleting, not canvassing on a Sunday lunchtime - and I'll look out for the cracks.And speaking of "the crack", P.O'Neill's is a genuine statement of the ICG's position.  There is at least one councillor out there who will hopefully recognise what was an honest, if questionable attempt at humour.

Phil Andrews ● 7768d

Are you saying that you really have a P O'Neill as a member of your group or did you choose that name as an attempt at humour? I didn't find it particularly funny and I'm amazed you'd admit to something so crass. I thought it was one of your opponents attempting to discredit you.

Andy Jones ● 7768d

Poor old P O'Neill - the guy was out of work. I think it was very decent of Phil Andrews to give him a job in the spirit of reconciliation. His experience will be very useful for the role.

Justin Harris ● 7768d

Ann :-  “I hope this isn't another of the dirty tricks that seem to have so dogged local politics over the last few years.”Phil :-  “If you want people to knock on your door you shouldn't have announced whom you have already decided to vote for.  The Tories won't knock because they have your vote already, and the others will give priority to the undecideds.!”***********************************************************It seems a shame that the political point scoring rises above the real issues and that a vote only counts not the reasoning it is given for – which is normally the most important factor for the individual voter.Sigh.So, Phil,  you may well be right and tactics and not issues are most important in the po-litical world.  Do you think that there is a gap, and if so, as it widens how are the voters reacting, do you fear, in this democracy of ours?I shared a lift today with a very well known po-litical person.  Very nice and down to earth she was as I said very intelligent things like – you are XXXXX then spent most of the lift journey laughing at myself and apologising.  She just got on with organising me into the lift making space for my trolley and the such like.  I would say she has experience of people saying things such as I did, and then halting the conversation.  Very friendly and very approachable person, I should say she is.Which reminds me of another lift journey I had with another very well known po-litical person years ago.  On this journey I was an observer.  I had occasion to visit one of those posh civil service buildings in the centre of London  I don’t know if you ever have? But the difference in those days between the posh buildings of the Head offices and suchlike and the ordinary working buildings in the suburbs, was immense.  These buildings were so different that the only give away was the loo paper  – GOVERNMENT PROPERTY stamped on it; on every sheet.  Now there is boasting for you.  Oft, I pondered whether and at what stage they might claim it back?  It wasn’t as if it was very comfortable and, quite frankly, they were welcome to it.On this occasion I had wandered back from lunch and had quite missed the fervour at the main door as I waited for the lift, got in and pressed 3 (the lower levels with occasional daylight).The door suddenly sprang open and in came an arm – wrapped around the electric door and a voice boomed ‘V-eye-P’.  I didn’t quite hear the VIP as in Very Important Person as I was getting over the length of the arm and the sonic boom of the shout, but I quickly realised and paid due care and attention to the scene unfolding before my eyes.  The owner of this arm fixed a Cheshire cat grin on his face (I swear it was ear to ear) and allowed several other men into the lift.  Was an amazing sight as they walked in backwards, without tripping, and lined the walls of the lift facing towards the VIP who came in last. The men were all pretty tall.  Best suits on and matching tailor made grins.  V-eye-P was tichy, about up to their belly buttons, and she stood with her back to the door, hands behind her back and eyes firmly fixed on their shoes and the floor.I did not move, and neither did the suits, apart from their eyes.  They were fully attentive to the lady but had become aware of the presence of moi, and were thrown without showing they were thrown.  Eyes started to wander as they allowed their eyes to stray from the top of her head and to meet mine as they quizzed my part in this scene.  Everything had obviously been prearranged and they were checking the arrangements in their mind to allow for me being there, in that lift.  Maybe they should have been grinning at me too?  (I smiled inside)  Realising that VIP had not realised their error, they continued making listening sounds and the lady talked.  She did not take one single breath (I swear) between floor one and floor 9, where they got out into sunshine.  Blow my floor, they must have had an over-ride button.  Had the lift stopped (by mistake) at a lower level and had I asked to be let off, I think they would have all jumped onto me.It was a bit of a shame really as they had put so many measures into play for her day out, and yet here she was ignoring the posters on the walls, giving all manner of important statistical information, and instead was studying the piece of chewing gum on the lift floor, and the one pair of shoes which hadn’t been polished that morning…Actually the real shame was her being conducted around all day in such a way, without actually meeting any real people.Real people talking about real lives.

Sarah Felstead ● 7768d

I wonder what roads are included in this Ward....which presumably borders on Heston, Hounslow, Isleworth and Brentford and Syon etc?

Jim Lawes ● 7768d

Correct Jim.  It goes up to the borough boundary and therefore incorporates most or all of Osterley Park.  It reaches as far east as Syon Lane, borders Heston at the west end of Jersey Road/Great West Road, and is separated from Syon by the railway line at the south of the ward.  Hope this helps.

Phil Andrews ● 7767d

Jim/AnneApologising is not something which I find difficult.  Admitting to ignorance is a thing which comes much harder to me, especially as I pride myself on my knowledge of recent Irish history.  So your patience would be appreciated.I typed the posting attributed to "P. O'Neill".  I don't approve of the use of pseudonyms on a forum such as this and have sent my apologies to Matt, however it was not intended to be a serious attempt to mask my identity.  It was actually meant to be a joke between myself and a prominent Conservative councillor, but sadly turned out to be something of an error of judgement.Let me explain.  A week or so I had a civilised, if slightly impassioned discussion with said councillor about the relationship now and possibly in the future between his organisation and mine.  He made some kind of reference, largely in jest, to "IRA-style messages" and referred to "P. O'Neill".I honestly thought that he was citing "P. O'Neill" as an example of the TYPE of name which was used in such communiques.  I was truly not aware that it had been a SPECIFIC name employed by the IRA.The use of it here was therefore intended to provide a touch of comedy to what is actually a serious issue, to lighten up the tone and to help defuse any bad feelings which may exist as a result of this by-election having been called.  It had been my mistaken belief that the name would have had no significance to anybody else.  I half expected the councillor to "expose" me anyway in his reply, if indeed he chose to reply.So that is it, and I apologise either to anybody who was offended by my use of what transpired to be an IRA nom-de-plume or to anybody who felt that its use devalued the forum or this discussion in any way.However, like I say, the content of the posting itself is deadly serious.  The alternative to co-operation is yet four more years of this arrogant, dishonest and entirely self-serving Labour administration.  I cannot believe that this is something which either the Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats are prepared to risk.

Phil Andrews ● 7767d

Thank's for clearing that up for us Phil. It makes a refreshing change to see a polititian admit that they have made a mistake. Perhaps the Hounslow Labour Party could take a leaf out of your book and admit to their mistake when giving false evidence in court. Come on Vanessa and Alan, what have you got to loose?

Andrew Sibley ● 7767d

Phil:  Thanks for the explanation about the unfortunate use of the name P O'Neill.  Its easy to make a mistake in posting something on these Forums..which one later regrets..so you are not alone. I've dropped clangers on these Forums too.Yes we are a sensitive lot...sensitive to certain things.. ...and that's why I responded as I did.I actually thought that the piece had been written by the Community Group's Chairman..David... so powerful and pertinent was the statement. By the way it would interesting to hear from him sometime on this Forum..covering as it does local issues.So, lets hope that this thread recovers from that little hickey..and we all get down to the issues of importance in this Election.

Jim Lawes ● 7767d

The Conservative Party leaflet has arrived this evening..very clear and informative...and highlighting the high Council TaxIn addition to the usual subjects....crime ..parking etc etc ..it did mention the "future" of the Campion House Site in Thornbury Road. There are very large grounds and buildings there...no longer used by the Jesuit Training College. The grounds are large enough for six football pitches I reckon.Nothing contentious in that leaflet ..in my view. Now lets await the leaflet from the Labour Party.

Jim Lawes ● 7766d

JimI've just noticed that there's a real P O'Neill posting on the Chiswick forum.  Guess I could have kept schtum after all!

Phil Andrews ● 7766d

We have received one from the Conservatives and one from the Community Group.

Sarah Felstead ● 7765d

SarahYou've received two from the Community Group.  I know, because I delivered to your street!! :o)

Phil Andrews ● 7765d

..Ah-ha.  The one I have here is No40.  Is the other one 39 or 41?  Shall have to have a trek around to find where it has been filed (which pile of magazines).  How did you get on with the pavements?  On the odd occasion one of my elderly neighbour’s strikes out, on their pins, for the post box at the end of the road, they are almost bent double watching where they place their feet.

Sarah Felstead ● 7765d

Twisted my ankle in Downs View on a previous occasion, but I emerged from Sunday's outing unscathed.  Maybe next time...

Phil Andrews ● 7765d

So the story about you tripping over a join in the red carpet (long piled - laid for a Councillors day out) was true?

Sarah Felstead ● 7764d

I've never been on a councillors' day out Sarah.The day after I was first elected the other councillors told me they were sending me to Coventry.  They must have liked me very much to invite me to a town twinning so early into my term of office, but I never heard any more about it.

Phil Andrews ● 7764d

...well I do find that a great shame Phil.  Of course you spotted the spoof about the red carpet ... ;-) but it isn't anything other than a complete shame if you were excluded from your other civic duties just because a huff was in the air.

Sarah Felstead ● 7764d

It's how I work best Sarah.  It's when they're nice to me that I start to worry.

Phil Andrews ● 7764d

So: just the Conservatives have paid a visit...three pronged too...with Sheila O'Reilly introducing herself as the new candidate..and she accompanied by two other Councillors (Mark Bowen + a.n. other).The Conservative Party had delivered their "sound" Election Leaflet some days.earlier....what I mean is that it read well..and nothing seemed vague..and there were no..what you might call "porkies"..in my view.The Community Groups' "Village News" (Issue No 39) fell on the doormat this lunchtime today as well ..and looked interesting too. A good write up about Dr Genevieve Hibbs,one of the three Community Councillors..who has recorded a 98% attendance record at Council Meetings of all kinds. I suggest that the next communication makes it clear that the Community Group already has three Councillers on the Isleworth and Brentford Area Committee...so that they are not seen to be new to the area. Campion House is worthy of mention..and inappropriate developements.The "Community Group" is such an expansive name..together with "Community Forums" and "Community Halls" that I'm surprised that their army of active supporters and Forum contributors is not greater. It should be so easy to expand their cause. Perhaps a more specific Electoral circular is on its way.SO: to date no Labour or Lib Dem. leaflets. Must be on their way. I'll keep you posted!

Jim Lawes ● 7763d

Thanks Jim.The Hounslow Chronicle clearly doesn't like our title, as it omitted it from Andy's write-up in what I would imagine to be a clear contravention of the Representation of the People Act.They also misspelt Andy's wife Ranjit's name as "Rankit".  I suppose she ought to be grateful that she isn't called Wanjit.A resident told me after the recent general election that he didn't vote for us because he didn't realise we were standing.  "What about all the leaflets we delivered to you during the campaign?" I asked.He replied: "But we always get your leaflets so we thought they were just ordinary newsletters".He knew the political parties were fielding candidates because they only deliver their material when they are looking for votes.Makes you weep, doesn't it?

Phil Andrews ● 7763d

...and has anyone had a leaflet other than from The Conservatives and the ICG?

Sarah Felstead ● 7762d

There is a Labour leaflet slowly doing the rounds by all accounts.

Phil Andrews ● 7762d

Jim Lawes ● 7761d

... me too, Jim.  But no sign of any leaflets left for voters to peruse!  In fact the table just inside the main doors at Osterley Library was bare of election paraphernalia - and lots of available space on it!We have still not received any other election leaflets....

Sarah Felstead ● 7761d

So: If each of the four candidates mentions.. in their canvassing leaflet... the same local "issues" ..what is the difference between the candidates?

Jim Lawes ● 7761d

The Conservative Candidate has organised a meeting for this coming Wednesday at St Mary's Church Hall. An opportunity to meet Sheila O'Reilly and ask questions...one assumes.

Jim Lawes ● 7761d

Jim Lawes ● 7761d

Thanks for posting the leaflet - Jim.  Worst of the bunch - does three constitute a bunch?Has anyone heard form the Lib/dems?

Sarah Felstead ● 7760d

Just to let you all know that our media release (albeit brief) which went out a week or two ago is now on our website http://www.hounslowlibdems.org.uk You can be sure more information on Naseem and her work in the local community will follow.Best wishesAndrew

Andrew Dakers ● 7760d

Sarah...Fancy the "new on the area" Labour Candidate saying, in that leaflet, that the various concerns of the residents would..."ALL RECEIVE THOROUGH ATTENTION ONLY FROM A LABOUR COUNCILLOR" !!  ONLY?That sounds like total eyewash..and seems disrespectful of the previous team of three Ward Councillors...who seem to have performed better than many.Indeed Sheila O'Reilly's candidature follows years and years of local service.And talking about "thorough attention only from a Labour Councillor" that seems incompatible with some of the discussions on this Forum..and on the Chiswick Forum.News awaited from Lib Dems. No doubt they will all list the same concerns...what some of are worried about is what happens at the Civic Centre.

Jim Lawes ● 7760d

I am smiling that you picked up on that bit, Jim.... "ONLY FROM A LABOUR COUNCILLOR"    ONLY?Some of these election leaflets appear to be written as if they are trying to advance a career, not be in tune and really keen to represent an area - or are dismissive of the area by being totally aloof of knowing and understanding what the issues are?Grim, Jim.

Sarah Felstead ● 7760d

Jim Lawes ● 7760d

the various concerns of the residents would "ALL RECEIVE THOROUGH ATTENTION ONLY FROM A LABOUR COUNCILLOR" !!  That's what the Labour leaflet says.Would this proud and emphatic statement be because...any Non-Labour Councillor would not get full co-operation from the those running the Civic Centre? (Are Conservative Party or Community Party or Lib Dem concerns lodged at the Council meetings just flattened without discussion by the Ruling Group?) What a state of affairs.      Do we need more Labour Councillors?...Are they not a dominating Group already?

Jim Lawes ● 7760d

Local Conservatives have chosen Sheila O’Reilly as their candidate for the Osterley & Spring Grove bye-election which will be held on Thursday, 25 August. The bye-election follows the sad death of Conservative ward councillor Premila Bhanderi in June.Sheila said: “I was very much saddened by the untimely death of Premila Bhanderi, who was an excellent councillor for Osterley and Spring Grove.  It will be a big achievement to replace her but I want to try to do that, to carry on her role of serving the people of Osterley and Spring Grove Ward. I am therefore putting myself forward as a candidate in the bye-election for councillor. “I am married with two adult children and have lived in Osterley for 30 years. Our children went to a wonderful school, St Mark’s, in Hounslow and we are proud they both went on to university from there.  Before the children arrived, I was a civil servant in what is now the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister working on housing and planning policy, then later ran an IT user group and now work as a programme manager at the British Standards Institute in Chiswick.“I have been the honorary secretary of the Osterley and Wyke Green  Residents Association for some 15 years and in that time, along with other residents, fought to ensure the preservation of Osterley House and grounds. Current issues are the Osterley controlled parking scheme, the viability of local shops and businesses and the redevelopment of Brunel University and Campion House sites, plus Hounslow’s very high council tax.“Ongoing issues I believe should be pursued are restrictions on the further development at Heathrow Airport, noise limits and the control of air pollution in Hounslow and its neighbours.“If I am elected as a councillor, I believe I can contribute more effectively to maintaining Hounslow as a good place in which to live and work.” Conservative Group leader on Hounslow Council, Peter Thompson, said: “Sheila is a first class candidate and will follow on the excellent work done in the ward and Hounslow borough by our colleague Premila.  We look forward to her joining Osterley and Spring Grove councillors Barbara Reid and Peter Carey on Hounslow Council.”

Jim Lawes ● 7760d

JimTo go back to the claims made in the Labour leaflet, I'm afraid the Labour Party is always doing this.  I wonder how well Bandna Chopra, or the author of this leaflet if it is a different person, knows Andy Sibley.  Or for that matter the Conservative or Lib Dem candidates.  How exactly are these people in a position to say that only their candidate would do this or that for Osterley & Spring Grove?The photograph which you have posted onto this forum proves only that their candidate knows where Osterley is.  The "give us your issues" bit is a tactic used frequently by the Labour Party (and by the Conservatives, it must be said) to fill up space on a leaflet when they haven't actually got anything to say themselves. Also the bigger the photo, the less information that needs to be given.  We in the ICG struggle to find enough space on our leaflets to say all that we feel needs to be said.  I would wager it is a long time since the Labour Party ever had this problem.Any fool can produce a leaflet chanting "Campion House, Brunel University, Osterley CPZ".  We all know what the issues are.  Surely what is important is what each candidate plans to do to address these issues if elected and how those plans differ from those of the other candidates?When was the last time the Labour Party distributed a newsletter in Osterley & Spring Grove?  The Conservative leaflet is headed "Newsletter 1".  Ours is No.40.I can't believe that the electorate would fall for this rubbish.

Phil Andrews ● 7760d

You are right Phil. It is how the elected councillor deals with these issues that is important.If elected my responsibility will be to represennt the residents of Spring Grove and Osterley in any way possible without being restricted by party policies.On issues such as the Brunell University re-development I will strive to get the best outcome for the people that live in that area and not the best outcome for the "Party". What are the chances of a Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem councillor putting the people before the party?

Andrew Sibley ● 7760d

I remain intrigued by the ICG position that councillors are "restricted by party policies".  Whilst I can empathise with peoples' concerns about the factionalism that sometimes exists inside and between parties, can you explain how Naseem Yousef - the Lib Dem candidate - would be restricted by any of our local policies?  See:http://www.hounslowlibdems.org.uk/resources/sites/82.165.40.25-419b2257da4f73.33615841/Full+2002+Local+Election+Manifesto.pdfAre these really so terrible and prescriptive?ICG sometimes appears to view 'the people' as a homogenous mass that all think the same way on local issues.  That is not the case.  So, if elected, when you come across differing opinions in the community, what values and reference points would you base your decisions on Mr Sibley?Andrew Dakers

Andrew Dakers ● 7760d

I seem to recall you stating at a Brentford Hustings Mr Dakers that there were many Lib Dem policies you did not agree with but if any member wanted to do well within the Party then you just pretended you agreed.

Paul Fisher ● 7760d

You misquote me Paul.  I stated that there were *some* policies that I disagreed with, which is inevitable, in any broad-based organisation.  I often cite positive discrimination to get more women candidates selected - which I believe the Lib Dems need - and fox hunting, which I think it is crazy to ban (surely industrial farming of animals would be a better focus for animal rights campaigners?) as examples. If a member's disagreements are seismic and far reaching then they are probably in the wrong party, however the examples I mention above are not enough to stop me working in the Lib Dems. Indeed there are many benefits.  For example, by working as a collective with a core set of values, we have the capacity to have policy specialists research new areas and brief candidates and MPs on new policy ideas and research as they emerge.Anyhow, what are your thoughts Paul on the points I raised before?Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 7760d

AndrewI know your question was directed to Paul but I was wondering whether you would mind me offering a few refelections of my own on your two postings?First of all it is disingenuous (or at best misinformed) to suggest that the ICG doesn't recognise that the community is sometimes divided against itself on some issues.  The most obvious example in my experience as a councillor was with the Woodlands street barriers, where sizeable lobbies existed both for and against the council's implementation of barriers in Woodlands Road and Riverside Walk, largely depending of course on where one happened to reside.Although this was not in my ward I took up the baton as I felt somebody had to, and called residents together for a series of public meetings which the council refused to recognise and political councillors grumpily boycotted.  Despite this over 150 people attended the various meetings and a compromise solution was agreed by residents which over 90% of those assembled were prepared to sign up to.This agreed solution was then torpedoed in a clearly co-ordinated move by Labour councillors and officers partly - I can only presume - because it wasn't their idea and partly, at least according to popular opinion, because the few party members on the estate were numbered amongst the small percentage who wanted everything their own way and to hell with the lesser mortals who comprised the rest of the community. One cannot please everybody all of the time, but surely democracy is about achieving the best deal possible for the largest number?Neither is it always the case that councillors are forced to take sides between one body of opinion and another within the community.  On several local issues in Isleworth former Labour councillors found themselves ranged against the WHOLE of the community, examples being the Worton Green and Western Geco developments, and the activities of the former Stanley Smith's plastics factory which had outgrown the neighbourhood in which it was operating.  We in the ICG considered it an absolute scandal that Labour councillors were not prepared to back their own constituents on these and other issues, and as nothing has been suggested to the contrary we must presume that any future Labour councillors in the ward would behave in exactly the same way.But the worst example of subservience to the Party Line taking precedence over the interests of the community was probably the recent one involving the closure of the John Aird House residential care home in Brentford.  Putting the specific arguments to one side the ICG wanted to keep this home open, as did the Lib Dems, ABeeC and the Conservatives, and as also did almost half of the Labour Group on the council.  A Scrutiny Panel with a Labour majority shared our view and urged the Executive to reconsider its plans to close.After a motion had been drawn up by the combined opposition groups that the Executive uphold the Scrutiny Panel's recommendation, the Labour Group met on the evening prior to the debate and voted by 19 votes to 18 to proceed with the closure.When the vote amongst all the councillors on Borough Council took place most of the 18 majority party councillors who wanted to keep the home open voted for closure in accordance with their Party Line.  The only exceptions were the four Labour members of the Scrutiny Panel, who abstained on a proposal to support their own recommendation (!), and a handful of moral cowards who stayed away completely.  Thus the wishes of 19 councillors overrode those of the other 41.  And this is democracy?I recognise that the Liberal Democrats, and probably also the Conservatives, do not view their own organisations with the same ovine reverence as do New Labour, but as Paul rightly points out a Party Line is nonetheless adhered to.  At local level you are also prisoners of ideologies which are almost totally irrelevant to the conduct of council business.  We in the ICG happily incorporate members and supporters from the far left to the conservative right who are simply united in the view that the interests of the people should take precedence over ideology.  As such we can say with confidence that our membership reflects the make-up of the community far more accurately than does that of any of the political parties.We go to the electorate on our track record.  I challenge you to suggest that the ICG has not been effective in fighting the community's corner in Isleworth where we have three elected councillors.As I have said before I recognise that the Liberal Democrats, and others, could be a force for positive political change on the London Borough of Hounslow. However at a by-election at which voters must choose which of the candidate is most likely to represent the views and interests of the wider community, it is difficult to look beyond the candidate whose organisation is drawn from that wider community on not from those who are of one particular body of opinion.

Phil Andrews ● 7760d

Thank you for your considered and fairly balanced response Phil.  Don't you miss those pre-election hustings debates? ;)The one thing I would add is that whilst you suggest "At local level you are also prisoners of ideologies which are almost totally irrelevant to the conduct of council business" I do not believe this *has* to be the case.  It rather depends on the party culture.  I have never felt imprisoned in effective local decision making by the values stated in our local manifesto.  Far from it, the manifesto emphasises our belief in empowering local communities to shape their futures.  As you say, sometimes this requires compromise between divergent points of view.In my view poor performance on a local council level is more due to the incompetence of individuals and the lethargy of some parties.  Whilst ICG may be considered 'healthy' today, organisations change and I don't believe ICG is immune from these problems like any other organisation.As you know, like you, I believe that a more diverse range of political organisations and councillors - reflective of the broad base of public opinion - will make for a healthier Hounslow Council. Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 7760d

"I do not believe this *has* to be the case.  It rather depends on the party culture.  I have never felt imprisoned in effective local decision making by the values stated in our local manifesto.  Far from it, the manifesto emphasises our belief in empowering local communities to shape their futures.  As you say, sometimes this requires compromise between divergent points of view."AndrewAccepting your word on this are you not saying that the strength of the Liberal Democrats, as opposed to the other major parties, is that it allows you to operate independently of the party line?  In other words to conduct yourself, to one degree or another, as though you were an independent councillor?If so, is the effective Liberal Democrat councillor not then effective in spite of his/her political allegiance rather than because of it?In what way is the Liberal Democrat councillor behaving independently any more or less effective than an independent councillor?The ICG is of course vulnerable to organisational problems like any other association or group, but the inefficient community councillor can be deselected and replaced by the community itself.  Thus the problem leaves with the individual.  The idea remains intact.Where I do agree with you is on the need for a broader base of representation.  It is encouraging that there are others who see this, and I'm happy to join with you in acting as a "persuader" for the benefit those thicker-skinned types (mentioning no names for fear of upsetting the Tories) who have yet to grasp this obvious point.

Phil Andrews ● 7760d

Front Page

Jim Lawes ● 7759d

Back page.

Jim Lawes ● 7759d

Jim Lawes ● 7759d

Jim Lawes ● 7759d

Jim Lawes ● 7759d

We're flattered!!

Phil Andrews ● 7759d

Received our copy of The Rose through the door this evening - already seen on this forum - courtesy of Jim.PS - there are other voters in this household!PPS - no sign of the Lib/dems leaflet yet, and I kind've like the flavour of some of the comments on their web site... will we get a leaflet in time?

Sarah Felstead ● 7759d

Sarah Felstead ● 7758d

It was commendable that the local Party arranged this meeting to introduce their new candidate to the locals ...and to invite questions. IMHO, it was a pity that the residents attending seemed so distant from some real issues!!I wonder if the Labour Party will afford us this democratic facility..ie ..to ask questions?Tonight's friendly meeting was held at the fairly new St Mary's Church Hall in Osterley..and whilst it only attracted some 24 or so local residents and Councillors..a good range of local issues was raised.  The meeting was very ably chaired by Cllr Gerald McGregor (a Chiswick Councillor who also deals with Boroughwide Police matters..amongst other things)..and at his side sat Sheila O'Reilly..the new candidate.The one hour long meeting began with discussions on parking and the popularity of Osterley Station and problems relating  to it, followed by local building projects that were incompatible with a Conservation Area, Policing, state of some local roads and pavements, etc etc.The questions and queries were ably answered .. by Cllr Mcgregor and Mrs O'Reilly and often by other Councillors in attendance..Cllr Peter Carey, an Cllr Barbara Reid. Did I not see Cllr Felicity Barwood there..but certainly the Conservative Party Agent John Davies from Chiswick...who indicated that he appreciated all our messages on these Forums.It was clear to me though that few of the members of the public attending  had much idea of what actually happens at the Granite Block of the Civic Centre Inner Circle..or were able to question how the Conservative Councillors were going to have greater success in their battle with the hardcore Labour Party Group.One questioner was concerned about the leaves falling on the pavement outside his home..and why the Council failed to clear the debris away! He was advised to call his Councillor who would chase the person whose supervised the Contractors. Every person seemingly has their worry...whether large or small!!It was disappointing to hear that Mrs O'Reilly found this Brentford Forum of little interest..when she had ventured onto it..and that only 25% of those present were "Internet Savvy"Of course, I urged the need for better information on all subjects to be Internet available..and suggested that a website for the Osterley and Spring Grove Ward should be established for this purpose.  I suggested to Cllr McGregor that his Party's Constituency website at its Chiswick HQ be switched into "active and continually updated mode"..and not left dormant for months on end..as some of us want to know what is going on!! I told them about the new Police Newsletter on this Forum.Of some concern to me..as an observer,was the lack of Asian residents in attendance at this meeting. Their heavy presence at the Civic Centre..their low attendence tonight.Could it be that whilst many local Asians appear generally prosperous "they" generally vote Labour. A quick glance at the last  ward election statistics for Norwood Green,and several adjoining wards in Southall show 90% plus voting Labour. With a shift of Asian residents to Osterley..should these "90%" statistics cause the Conservatives concern?The Labour candidate..being Asian..could perhaps cause an upset? More canvassing is perhaps what the candidates and their supporters need to do..and to send out more leaflets and circulars of an editorial quality which will leave an impression.Golly, I even saw Mr Tony Arbour, the Greater London Authority Councillor..sporting his blue rosette..in canvassing mode in Thornbury Road! What's the news from the doorsteps?

Jim Lawes ● 7757d

PhilAn ICG candidate unable to speak for himself , what a surprise !

Alan Sheerins ● 7757d

Well I never, our Alan has finally plucked up the courage to show his face (well his name) after months of hiding away to avoid having to answer for his colleague's admission of perjury and his and his party's unqualified endorsement of same.  Seems he is unable to contain himself any longer.I have to say that after all these months I would have expected something a bit better than this, especially as Andy is the only candidate at this by-election who has bothered to post on this forum, which he does frequently.I must have missed the Labour candidate's contributions, but do tell her to keep them coming.Now, about this perjury business...

Phil Andrews ● 7757d

JimThanks for this info.I understand that the Labour Party have been phoning around - even to LAPSED ex-members of several years, including those now with the ICG (LOL!!!) - asking for help to deliver leaflets and canvass.  They are also asking these people to display signs in their front gardens of the kind which we saw during the general election campaign.  I must say that, having walked around, the response to these telephone pleas must have been overwhelming (LOL again!).They really are in trouble when they can't find a host body to attach themselves to to hand out their material, aren't they?

Phil Andrews ● 7757d

Welcome back Alan. What of those members of the Labour party who committed a criminal offence by making false statements under oath? How can anyone take Labour seriously when certain members of the Labour party are prepared to lie under oath in a court of law, just to retain a tenuous grip on power? Anyone who casts a vote for Labour in this by-election will give Labour a licence for another term, allowing Labour to continue with their degrading and contemptuous skulduggery of local politics. Maybe the Labour slogan for the Osterley and Spring Grove by-election ought to be “If we can’t win at the ballot box, we’ll lie in court.”

Gareth Evans ● 7757d

Alan,any chance of a word in your old mate Alan Keens earhole about when He and his good Wife are going to cease fleecing us all for their Covent Garden pad?My rough calulations make it approx £9000 has been paid in their joint account since the General Election night when he declared that he would issue a statement on the matter.Are you not embarressed yourself about this Alan or have you been ordered to keep quiet on the subject?When you return to this forum perhaps you have an opinion about Vanessa Smith admitting to lying in court as well?

Paul Fisher ● 7757d

Alancan I ask you why Ann emailed me to offer her support severall weeks ago but then ignor's my email about the help I need?Also can you tell me why you ignored my email last week I sent you?And also can I ask you Are You "THE SHADOW" on the Ivytag forum as one resident thinks you are?Thanks Simon AndersonChair Of Ivytag

Simon Anderson ● 7757d

Alan,"An ICG candidate unable to speak for hinself" ?I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion. First of all it was me that started this thread in an attempt to encourage my opponents to join in with the forum and to have some sort of debate about the issues that affect Osterley and Spring Grove. So far I have had a response from Andrew Dakers of the Lib Dems speaking on behalf of their candidate. Neither the Tory or Labour candidates have replied.It is also interesting to see how each of us has used the internet, which is a very powerfull tool these days, to promote our campaigns. To date the Labour Party is the only one not to mention this by-election on their web site. In fact it is difficult to tell when it was last updated. The ICG on the other hand has a dedicated site for this election and has also set up it's own forum. Issues are discussed live every Monday evening.So to say that I am unable to speak for myself is a bit wide of the mark. Maybe you think that I don't contribute to this forum enough. Perhaps you should count the number of times you have made a contribution in the last three months or so.I have also been trying to get an answer from you and Vanessa Smith regarding the malitious falshood case in which Vanessa has admitted that she lied in court while under oath. I think they call it perjury don't they. So while you are busy criticising others perhaps you would be so kind as to offer your oppinion on this matter and tell us if the Labour party actually condone this sort of behaviour. After all I think the residents of Osterley and Spring Grove deserve to know where the Labour party stand on their members committing criminal offences.Finally I repeat what I have already said. If you have nothing to hide then you should have no problem responding. By not addressing this issue implies that you are hiding something from us.

Andrew Sibley ● 7757d

“PS - there are other voters in this household!”Fancy - an ICG election leaflet - personally addressed and hand delivered to 2 other voters from this household - through the door, today!  They shall peruse it and consider their options.

Sarah Felstead ● 7756d

(1)A caravan in Witham Road, (2)Isleworth and Syon School for Boys, (3)Osterley Library, and (4)St Francis Church Hall..on the Great West Road..near Gillettes.

Jim Lawes ● 7756d

Picture from Bob Gibbs website. Pictures freely available.

Jim Lawes ● 7756d

I am not the Shadow. Unlike your buddy Phil i do not post under pseudonyms.

Alan Sheerins ● 7756d

I am sure you appreciate the support Phil gives you in telling you what to say in public. Most of the contributors to this thread are your own Party's supporters. Honestly i get very bored with the reactionary nonsense that most of them post, this is why i usually do not comment or post. I don't have the time to respond to Phil’s propaganda. He of course is subsidised by the Council Tax payers of the Borough and the National Tax payer in his full time capacity of self appointed “witch hunter” and Leader of the "pointless moans" squad. Like most of the rest of us I work for a living.

Alan Sheerins ● 7756d

As an outsider to all this - are you making an allegation?  being offensive?  of making a funny?

Sarah Felstead ● 7756d

As an outsider to all this - are you making an allegation?  being offensive?  or making a funny?(no eff)

Sarah Felstead ● 7756d

"He of course is subsidised by the Council Tax payers of the Borough and the National Tax payer in his full time capacity of self appointed 'witch hunter' and Leader of the 'pointless moans' squad. Like most of the rest of us I work for a living"AlanWe all know why you rarely post on this forum these days and it becomes more and more obvious each time you avoid the issue.However, I would be interested to know what you mean by the above because you would appear to be suggesting that I am in receipt of Income Support and/or Housing Benefit.  As you would doubtless be in a position to know that neither is in fact the case do we take it that this is the latest in what seems to be a series of deliberate falsehoods and misrepresentations emanating from the completely amoral and thankfully disintegrating New Labour Party in Hounslow?If I were to take this matter further would you protest that you had typed the above with your eyes closed and didn't know what you are writing?  Then admit later that you had told us a pack of lies?Your further clarification would be appreciated, but my guess would be that we are now in for another long silence.

Phil Andrews ● 7755d

Shall we have a sing-song?

Sarah Felstead ● 7755d

There are 2 big effs, in huff.

Sarah Felstead ● 7755d

David Johnson ● 7755d

How can you vote for a candidate ..to represent say 10,000 people in a Ward...and to contribute and vote on decisions and Policy at the Civic Centre...where some £500,000,000 is spent each year ..including lots of our own hard earned money, when..(1) you haven't met or interviewed them..(2) you don't know how capable they REALLY are..(3) they all say basically say the same things..and mention the same subject matter..and say they will listen to the residents. (then take action even if its against Party Policy?) (viz Ken and the Tram)(4) most of them hardly know the area..(5) and ...they are unlikely to have sat an "o" level or degree examination in Local Government matters..Well, I suppose you rely on their writings, their leaflets and circulars....and judge their integrity and suitability accordingly. But if you popped your head around the door at the Civic Centre..and watched the meetings,read the minutes,checked attendance records,read these Forums.... and listened to whistleblowers about what goes on.....you'd make up your mind very quickly I'm sure!

Jim Lawes ● 7755d

How can you vote for a candidate ..to represent say 10,000 people in a Ward...and to contribute and vote on decisions and Policy at the Civic Centre...where some £500,000,000 is spent each year ..including lots of our own hard earned money, when..(1) you haven't met or interviewed them..(2) you don't know how capable they REALLY are..(3) they all say basically say the same things..and mention the same subject matter..and say they will listen to the residents. (then take action even if its against Party Policy?) (viz Ken and the Tram)(4) most of them hardly know the area..(5) and ...they are unlikely to have sat an "o" level or degree examination in Local Government matters..Well, I suppose you rely on their writings, their leaflets and circulars....and judge their integrity and suitability accordingly.But if you popped your head around the door at the Civic Centre..and watched the meetings,read the minutes,checked attendance records,read these Forums.... and listened to whistleblowers about what goes on.....you'd make up your mind very quickly I'm sure!

Jim Lawes ● 7755d

Phil - let me put your mind at reat. I of course was talking about your Council Allowances. I would'nt want to waste any more of your valuable time persuing yet another trivial issue. Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us how you fund your full time occupation as a councillor?

Alan Sheerins ● 7755d

Happily.  Once you've had the good manners to answer everybody else's questions relating to Vanessa Smith's admission of perjury and Ann Keen's unjustified housing expenses.

Phil Andrews ● 7755d

SarahIn the unlikely event that Alan does condescend to respond to you, it will be with another question rather than with an answer to yours.

Phil Andrews ● 7754d

..fallacious falsehood?

Sarah Felstead ● 7754d

I don't know about setting Phil’s mind at rest, Alan - I would have liked an explanation!  I read it, in the same way that Phil has described his impression of what you said.  In view of numerous comments in the news this week about certain people claiming benefits, the direction of your gusto appears to suggest more?  In the context of this threads topic, may I suggest you are sailing close to the wind, and you might like to do some grovelling?

Sarah Felstead ● 7754d

SarahGrovelling isn't the New Labour way.  He's more likely to deny he said it.

Phil Andrews ● 7754d

Well, he did!

Sarah Felstead ● 7754d

Thought I'd seek out some views on this potential election photo (if it works).  Impressive, eh?

Phil Andrews ● 7753d

Well done Phil...so you are a secret Picture Poster after all..and you were able to use your own photo too! Was the T-shirt suppose to be multicoloured..or was it soaked in the rain? Hang on ..wait a minute..is that Andrew?We'll have to move off the Election threads to award you your Doctorate!  But make sure you wear a collar and tie as these ceremonies are serious business!! ;0)

Jim Lawes ● 7753d

It was a combination of sweat and rain as we had just been leafleting in 90 degree heat interspersed by a downpour.Yes, it's Andy.  It's amazing how many of the people I have spoken to in the ward look at his election photo and think I am him.  I point out that whilst I am clearly better looking than Andy, I am grateful at least that they should think I am 38.We kinda thought the Osterley Station pic would provide irrefutable proof of Andy's knowledge of the area, and that only he will be able to address any of the issues which concern the ward.  We thought we might also be able to take up half a page with the photo which would otherwise need to be filled with news and information.The problem is OUR voters are not dull enough to fall for a cheap stunt like that.Have you seen the letter which New Labour is sending to postal voters?  "An idiot's guide to filling out a ballot paper".  They must have a really high opinion of their own voters, but then maybe that's why they can smirk about how they continue to get away with shafting them with their expense claims whilst still expecting their vote.Personally I don't believe that the terminally brain-dead are great enough in number to be able to guarantee New Labour another four years in office in Hounslow.  Something has to give, surely?

Phil Andrews ● 7753d

Jim Lawes ● 7752d

BrentfordTW8 Forum..quick with the news...but poor debate from those in power. Dumb us down with no information!

Jim Lawes ● 7752d

I have mentioned this to Phil before ..when I met him on the rounds. We know that the Labour Party has adopted red (with yellow background?) and the Conservative Party blue.I believe the Lib Dems use an orangy colour...and the Green Party a light green.  So, isn't green not already used?The Times newspaper reported the other day..about the Nottinghamshire Police Force wearing a green ribbon as a friendship gesture towards the local Muslim population..who also have green as their colour. The newspaper then mentioned that the green was also the IRA Nationalist colour.If the Community Group is a cross-party organisation..  serving the community without political baggage..why doesn't it adopt, say, a cheerful multi-coloured logo..which might be more widely identified. Using green strikes me as being confusing.In the recent photoshot at Osterley Station..in the thread above..a black T-shirt was being displayed.Just enquiring..any commentss?

Jim Lawes ● 7752d

Jim Lawes ● 7752d

I braved Tesco this evening and quickly wished that I hadn't.  The car park was full of trays of rotting peppers - which looked really rotten, so must have been there in the sun for a couple of days.  If they hadn't then surely the next question is where they had been stored, at the store.  Fly's everywhere.  Broken glass across the tarmac and rubbish blowing around.  This is a quality site - or so Tesco were told when they asked for their planning permission!Come on you candidates - your first job, whether you have won the post or not!

Sarah Felstead ● 7752d

JimI'm sure that the usual scurrilous elements will attempt to attach some kind of political significance to Andy's black T-shirt.  His wife Ranjit would giggle.The colour green is intended to represent our being in touch with the environment.  People need green open spaces as well as blocks of concrete.  The natural environment is there to be enjoyed by us all, and at the same time we have an obligation to that environment.  The recognition of this is fundamental to the ICG's philosophy.In and around Isleworth this has not traditionally caused any confusion, because the Green Party hasn't fielded candidates in local elections here for an age and local people are familiar with us anyway.At the recent general election I would agree that it was confusing, and I still reckon the Greens picked up votes as a result of our activities, but that's all by the by.  Maybe there would be a case under some circumstances for the inclusion of a second colour, although I wouldn't want the ICG becoming something akin to the Rainbow Alliance.

Phil Andrews ● 7751d

Dear AllCan I point out a few things about Labours leaflet the rose..It is all lies lies lies..The Bridgelink Playground wasn't down to Ann Keen it was down to me yes me..See a few years ago I was sitting and well running the Labour group NITA on Ivybridge,when Myself and the chair at the time was approached by a resident on MRAG and a rep off Thames to say they wanted to give some Money to the area.I was told to ask residents what they wanted the money to be spent on,I was told by many residents a playground next to the bridgelink center.I attd a meeting at Thames with other reps from other resident groups i the area and we all put our piece across that we wanted the money and what 4..in a nutshell Ivybridge won the money.Yes Ann helped raise the extra capital needed but if I didn't start it off It would off never happened but like everything Labour has to lie and take credit for other peoples work.hen we come to the crossing,I have been fighting for years for this project as soon as Labour found out we were going to get a petition up on IVYBRIDGE they come in and steal another one from us..Labour want you to believe that they got these things well I say rubbish...As to the 267 wasn't it the ICG who started tackling this years ago?..now Labour come in trying to steal others work and take credit.All I can say is dont Trust them or Believe them.Simon AndersonChair of IVYTAG

Simon Anderson ● 7751d

Thanks for the response Phil...at least I've been able to lodge my thoughts. I still think green is a little unjolly...a coloured stripped logo would raise a smile and interest everywhere!..and would suggest a variety of themes...or whatever.By the way, I thought that your organisation's OUR ISLEWORTH  booklet which has arrived through the letterbox his weekend was very readable..and certainly was not a chuck away item. It was by reading your postings on this Forum a year or so ago..and your writings in subsequent circulars and newsletters..that has aroused my interest in wanting to find out what is going on in local politics..and in local government...and there seems to be a common thread amongst all Non Labour parties that the Civic Centre is indeed a bit of a fortress.Even the Lib Dem canvassers indicated that to me today..when they called. Even 7 years ago..I have an old Circular here..the Conservatives were complaining that the Labour Council were not giving Budget information to Councillors in good enough time to make proper study of the limited statistics.""Information which is of vital importance to all Hpounslow residents was withheld. The normal consultation process did not happen""Well, is that still not the case. Its a pity that so many people in the Borough..seemingly don't have the faintest idea of what is going on. When there is a Community Forum like this one ..those with knowledge and information..and perhaps explanation ability..just boycott the opportunity.M

Jim Lawes ● 7751d

HOUNSLOW LABOUR PARTY MANIFESTOCOUNCIL ELECTIONS 2002Labour working for HounslowLabour is proud to lead Hounslow Council. The Borough is made up of a group of historic towns and villages stretching from the edge of Inner London to Heathrow Airport. It has a unique heritage, many diverse communities and is home to major international companies as well as vibrant small businesses.We believe that residents value our commitment to well-run, good value services that reflect the needs of the community. We recognise the commitment of our staff who have responded to and initiated change to deliver better services to those who live and work in Hounslow. We also value the contribution that representatives of a wide variety of community groups give to working in partnership with us.We are proud to work closely with a range of public services as diverse as: the Police, the Primary Care Trust and Health authorities, Registered Social Landlords and Transport for London.We have taken the lead in developing Hounslow's Community Plan. This will be launched in June 2002 and this follows extensive consultation involving those public agencies and local community organisations, and listening to the views of residents expressed through the annual survey. The Community Plan defines the priorities of our area, and identifies what the partners can do to deliver change on those issues. The Plan will be used as the basis for setting targets, timescales and standards for services in the borough.When we are re-elected we will make Hounslow one of the top performing boroughs in London. We will ensure excellent services are delivered by listening to what local people want, setting high standards and ensuring that those standards are delivered at a reasonable cost and are relevant to the varying needs of our community. We will consider a range of service delivery options, use whichever option delivers the best standards, and if those services are no longer provided by the Council, we will recognise the value of those staff and ensure that conditions for those staff are not diminished by a change of legal employer.Our Children Our futureLabour is committed to the provision of good education, care and protection, leisure and housing for all our children, recognising their diverse backgrounds and needs.Under Labour, Hounslow has achieved:* A Nursery place for every 3 and 4 year old whose parent wants it.* No five, six or seven-year-olds taught in classes larger than 30.* Improvement in the academic achievement of 11 year olds grow by more than 10% over the last 5 years* A SureStart programme delivering a range of opportunities to children and their families in the West Hounslow/Beavers estate areaWe pledge to:* Continue to drive up education standards so that 83% of year 6 children will meet or exceed national standards in Literacy and Maths and our children passing five or more GCSE grades will be in line with the national average* Continue to improve the buildings and facilities of our schools so that our children may thrive in all areas of the curriculum* Provide a responsive, caring and effective service for looked-after childrenCleaner Greener NeighbourhoodsLabour is committed to a sustainable future for our neighbourhoods. Our aim is to reduce waste, to encourage more waste to be recycled and to encourage people to leave their cars at home by providing accessible, safe alternatives.Under Labour, Hounslow has:* One of the best recycling records of any London borough, over 20% of household waste is recycled* Extended recycling green boxes to flats and maisonettes* Been awarded Beacon Status for Waste and Recycling Services Developed a garden waste collection service that will be weekly from Summer 2002* Council supported bus routes H26m H28 and H21 which carry over local passengers each year and we have consulted local people on new bus services and route improvements* Substantially upgraded the Civic Amenity Site to extend recyclingWe Pledge to:* Work with London Buses to improve existing routes, establish new bus routes that the community needs and improve access to buses* Extend our recycling service to include recycling of a wider range of materials, and to consider covering trade waste contracts* Work towards Government targets for recycling 25% of household waste by 2005* Improve facilities for cyclists, pedestrians and all mobility impaired road users* Ensure that 95% of local streets will meet Grade A or B of the Government's Litter Code.Safer CommunitiesLabour is working for healthier and safer communities by raising standards of personal safety, road safety and consumer protection. We recognise the importance of working with the health, police and probation service and local communities in the Community Safety Partnership.Under Labour, Hounslow Has:* Introduced Neighbourhood Wardens on Housing Estates suffering crime and nuisance problems* Developed CCTV in Hounslow Town Centre and on Housing estates and renewed and improved street lighting across the Borough* Dealt rapidly and effectively with tenants who racially harass their neighbours or whose behaviour ruins the lives of neighbours on Council estates. Several tenants have been evicted under this programme.* Established a Women's Safety Centre in Feltham, through our partnership with Feltham First Regeneration BoardWe pledge to:* Continue to remove racist graffiti as it appears and develop solutions to the scourge of graffiti and illegal signs that plagues the Borough* Insist that the design of all new developments will be such as to reduce crime* Extend the coverage of CCTV in response to public demand, where resources permitSupporting People in NeedLabour is committed to providing services and support for the disadvantaged and vulnerable in our community. Services that are responsive to their needs and wishes and in close partnership with other agencies and the voluntary sector.Under Labour, Hounslow has:* established Landlord Registration Schemes across the Borough to encourage private landlords to offer safe and secure homes for rent* established Hounslow's Money Advice Service so that those on low incomes will continue to get free professional advice on debt and money* Worked with the voluntary sector in developing an information resource for the parents of disabled childrenWe pledge to:* Ensure all new housing developments include affordable housing, to rent and for sale at below market prices, particularly larger units* Reduce the time taken to process homelessness applications and bring more empty properties into use to reduce homelessness* Expand the support to enable elderly and disabled residents including home owners to remain in their own homes* Ensure that fewer young people will be placed in residential homes.Investing in Our FutureLabour promotes sustainable development and works in partnership with local people delivering economic growth, social progress with opportunities for everyone, effective protection of the environment, and prudent use of natural resources. Our aim is to ensure that all members of our community are included and provided with opportunities to develop new skills, interests and better health.Under Labour, Hounslow has:* Invested in our Council Housing so that every tenant now has individual central heating, and our programme to install double glazing, refurbish bathrooms and kitchens is almost complete* Extended Controlled Parking Zones to all areas where commuter parking causes major nuisance to residents and small businesses* Invested in our library service so that all 11 libraries have freely accessible PCs with full online access* Established Community Initiative Partnerships Ltd (CIP), a non-profit making trust providing library arts and sports services throughout the Borough, and enabled CIP to provide paths along the waterfront of the Thames and other rivers.* Supported Waterman's Arts Centre, Brentford in its rejuvenation and its plans to become a major Asian Arts venue as well as remaining an important community resourceWe pledge to:* Ensure that a multi purpose Community Hall is developed in Hounslow* Lead the redevelopment of the town centres of Hounslow, Feltham and Brentford to bring new housing, community facilities, improved transport services and a brighter environment to local people* Redevelop the Heston leisure campus* Work with the Government, Transport for London, and the private sector to reduce the traffic impact of the fifth terminal at Heathrow Airport by developing a range of public transport initiatives, and ensure public transport services are accessible, clean and frequent* In partnership with the private sector and Transport for London we will develop a case for a tram along the A4 corridor between Hammersmith and Heathrow, and consider extending the idea to the A312 towards Kingston.* Continue to support existing, and develop new opportunities for the arts, sport and recreation in the borough.* Provide top quality Information Technology in every library, and rebuild Chiswick, Heston, Feltham and Beavers libraries* Ensure that in all new housing developments, half the units are affordable, and a significant proportion of those are made available for sale or rent to key workers at a level that is affordable.Spending ResponsiblyLabour believes that your money must be spent efficiently and effectively. It is our priority to ensure that Council Tax payers and rate payers receive value for money; spending prudently and protecting local people from fraud or wastage. Spending responsibly means Hounslow will continue to be a good employer and ensure that all talent and dedication is properly used to deliver services.Under Labour, Hounslow Has:* Developed a performance management system and an all-party Overview and Scrutiny Panel* Developed good services at less cost: such as Waste collection that deliver an efficient service at lower cost than comparable authorities* Developed CIP Ltd as a non-profit making trust to run our existing leisure services to higher standards yet lower costWe pledge to:* Deliver a new approach to services* Identify, through the Community Plan, what the priorities are for the community in terms of the delivery of public services* Determine the appropriate standards to deliver those services,* Consider a range of providers for that service - including in-house, new local providers, alternative providers (CIP Ltd being an existing example of this and the Arms Length Management Company being another)* Work in Partnership with a range of other service providers* Monitor the performance of the delivery of services, through the Executive, scrutiny and best value processes, using a quarterly and annual programme of monitoringResponding to YouLabour is committed to meeting the needs of the diverse community in Hounslow by providing services to the satisfaction of users, with staff that fairly represent the community they serve. Equal access must be a priority for the Council.Under Labour, Hounslow has:* Instituted Area Committees across the borough, with local participation, and the power to spend funds in their local area on environmental and safety initiatives* Investigated how the lessons of the MacPherson Report following the murder of Stephen Lawrence, can be learnt in Hounslow, and we have implemented key measures.* Reviewed and updated the Council's structure and arrangements to improve local democracy and to make our services reflect the needs and views of the people of Hounslow.* Commissioned an annual opinion survey and published the results.* Become the first local authority to have its Council meetings broadcast live on the world-wide web.* Created a Customer Care Manager post - and many staff have had training in customer care.* Tenants have greater control of their housing through their involvement in the Tenants Compact and Area Housing Forums.* All tenants are surveyed annually to seek their views on housing policies and initiatives.We pledge to:* Further develop and improve our structures and the organisational culture to achieve a greater degree of openness, democracy and accountability.* Work with tenants in the setting up of the Arms Length Management Company which will manage Hounslow's Council Housing in partnership with tenants, with the aim of bringing in £90m of much needed funds to be used on improving and modernising our Council Housing stock.* Institute a choice-based lettings service to enable those in housing need to have more control over the decision on their next home.* Use new technology to increase the provision and quality of accessible, efficient services which respond to the needs of our diverse community.

Jim Lawes ● 7751d

Let me eleaborate on what is being discussed here.A few years ago an Ivybridge resident with learning difficulties by the name of John Branch took it upon himself to gather a petition seeking a crossing in Summerwood Road at the approach to Ivybridge Primary School.  He was supported in this by us as his elected ward councillors.When the petition, containing many hundreds of signatures, was presented to Hounslow Homes John was told that a crossing was not needed and that he could not expect any help.Recently the residents' action group Ivytag reactivated the petition, and the Brentford, Chiswick & Isleworth Times carried this as a front page story last week.Typically, rather than assisting with the residents' petition the Labour Party began their own and within a matter of days (we are told, because nobody has seen it) had collected 350 signatures.  They handed the petition to Ann Keen who responded with uncharacteristic haste (anybody still waiting for a reply from this lady?) by presenting it to Chris Langstaff, the Managing Director of Hounslow Homes, who was instantly persuaded by the Labour Party petition to introduce a warden.This embarrassingly obvious one-two between the Labour Party and Mr. Langstaff (who has a track record of interfering in the political arena in Isleworth in spite of his terms of employment requiring him to be politically impartial in his work) brings back memories to us of the local election campaign of 1998, when Labour canvassers were given access to security controlled blocks to which the ICG was denied entry.Despite the indescribable pettiness of Labour's and Hounslow Homes' behaviour - and the warning which their unwillingness to work with members of the community sounds to residents who might be tempted to give them another chance at next year's local elections - we are pleased of course that the users of Ivybridge Primary School are to get their crossing.It could be that Ivytag could exploit this situation to get other things done on the estate between now and next May.  If all residents need to do is generate their own campaigns which Labour can then steal from them and claim sole credit for with the active co-operation of Hounslow Homes, then I would suggest they take advantage.In the long term, of course, the priority must be to address the issue of cronyism within the Civic Centre and Hounslow Homes so that issues such as this can in the not-too-distant future be considered purely on their merits, from whomever they are raised.

Phil Andrews ● 7751d

I think the most significant words in the whole of this are "Under Labour", which is repeated.These people do not consider that we as a community should work with them.  We are "under" them.  The whole New Labour philosophy summed up in two little words.

Phil Andrews ● 7751d

(Re Labour Party taking the credit etc etc )Do the Labour Party really behave like that?Are the Conservatives and Lib Dems aware of Labour's seeming behavior too?Sounds like more publicity and one-off leaflets are required!I must say "we" wouldn't all have known about it..unless you broadcast the matter in the way you have.

Jim Lawes ● 7751d

PhilI do feel that they cheated us all..see i found out recently that our plan to get a petion was leaked to Hounslow Homes so it don't surprise me that this has happened.But to get only 350 signatures they didn't canvas the whole estate..as IVYTAG would off got more then that.I want to know is why ignore a petion that Mr Branch got done years ago but accept LABOUR'S this is clearly another set up between the very Labour Hounslow Homes and Labour.I have heard many Hounslow Homes employees are leaving it is time Mr Langstaff goes now.Also it wasn't Labour that got the signatures a member off the Bridgelink put a form in Kirkstone lodge and one in the cafe.I don't believe they got 350 signatures though as many residents I spoke with this wk didn't sign it nor did they see a petition.I wonder if they are lieing and it is a plan between HH and Labour to lie and cheat, just to get one over the ICG and IVYTAG??I am still waiting for a reply from ANN as she emailed me to ask what she could do to help my fundraiser for GOSH when I replied she has ignored me now.I feel like you Phil that Labour steels other peoples work and takes credit for it as they haven't got the brains to come up with something on there own.Simon Anderson#Chair of IVYTAG

Simon Anderson ● 7751d

JimWhen you fight New Labour you do so with one arm tied behind your back, because they have no qualms whatsoever about resorting to tactics which normal people with normal standards would not be involved with.  Of course one is tempted from time to time to respond to them in kind but that would make us no better than them, and would indeed negate the very purpose of our existence - to restore decency and honesty to our local politics.The way we are looking at things is that we have got our crossing, which is a victory for the residents.  We will also take advantage of Hounslow Homes' political activity to get more done on Ivybridge between now and May.  In my view only a small minority of residents will be in the dark as to where the initiative is truly coming from.By the way Jim, does this incident not help to answer your concerns about the comments contained in the Labour leaflet in Osterley, viz. "only Labour will be able to do things for the voters of Osterley & Spring Grove"?

Phil Andrews ● 7751d

Jimit doesn't surprise me that Labour and Hounslow Homes has done this..see Hounslow Homes refuses to listen or work with IVYTAG as they Have Nita in there control see the residents association is made up off all Labour supporters and if you don't support Labour you ain't allow to join,where as even though IVYTAG is open to anyone who ever they vote for Hounslow Homes wont recognize us as we wont let them control us plus we are supported by the ICG, Hounslow Homes say they care for the residents but they don't I spoke to many residents this wk who have said that it is disgusting the way HH treat IVYTAG and the ICG as all the 2 groups are doing is trying to help the residents.We all know where HH stand they are very Labour and it wouldn't surprise me JIM that there wasn't 350 signatures and if there was they certainly wasn't from all residents on Ivybridge I think this is been made up and Mr Langstaff is ok'd the crossing so Labour and NITA can steel the credit.You scratch my back springs to mind a??

Simon Anderson ● 7751d

SimonAs with all things this has a plus side.  The Labour/Hounslow Homes arrangement is one of the prime motivators for the ICG in its efforts to change the overall control at Hounslow Council.  When this happens the price of the ICG's co-operation with any new administration will be that the statutory requirement for political impartiality on the part of senior officers, currently disregarded, will be rigidly enforced.  Those who don't like it can face the consequences.

Phil Andrews ● 7751d

PhilI really can't wait for that day to come as Hounslow Homes are victimizing lots off People at present.one resident on IVYBRIDGE asked me why is it OK for Labour,Bridgelink and NITA to advertise in there boards in the blocks on the Estate but if IVYTAG or ICG ask we are told to in so many words to get lost.If we put up posters they get ripped down and discarded.It seems HH only want residents to Know about groups they control and support.I recently had a conversation with a gentlemen from the Nepalese group who told me that when they approached Bridgelink for a room they had to pay but because they don't get funded by anyone they only stayed a few months when they asked if they could use the room for FREE like NITA they were told no..They approached HH and Labour for help and get nothing this is the same group who at the official NITA office opening presented ANN with presents from there group.Another group victimized by HH politics.I feel all residents should know about every group that represents them, but HH want them to just be controlled by there group NITA, residents have told me they are sick off it and they don't trust HH or NITA.Also isn't the residents rent that pays for these new boards? if so why cant residents decide what goes in them or not..I really hope and pray that you get in and shake things up as there is alot off undermining going on in HH..Simon

Simon Anderson ● 7751d

Does the Summerwood Estate come within the Isleworth Ward..or is it in South Hounslow?Is there a detailed map of Hounslow Wards?For example where is the Osterley and Spring Grove ward map?Is it on the Civic centre website?

Jim Lawes ● 7751d

It is the Ivybridge estate Jim..and yes it comes under Isleworth..Simon

Simon Anderson ● 7751d

The points that Simon and Phil make about the elbowing that goes on around the Ivybridge Estate between Councillors and local Politicians does raise ones eyebrows.Can it be true that elected Councillors..all three of them in Isleworth..get pushed around so much by Labour Party "members" or Officials..or Council members or officials...when the Community group have been voted in as representatives (Councillors) by a large majority of the local Community?This kind of information..maybe only one side of the story...must arouse the interest of observers.Do the LibDem Councillors in other parts of Hounslow get similar treatment?  Are their approaches to Council run establishments similarly hampered. More information please?If Alan Sherrins is around could he re-assure us observers that these reports are just eyewash?

Jim Lawes ● 7750d

"If Alan Sherrins is around could he re-assure us observers that these reports are just eyewash?"I've no doubt he'd be happy to do so.  The question is - with his track record and that of his party locally would anybody, seriously, take his word for it?

Phil Andrews ● 7750d

Heard that the Labour candidate for Osterley was short-listed last night for the safe seat of Hounslow West - about 150 Labour Party "members" present. Chair of Scrutiny Jivan Virk dumped by the ward, the second sitting councillor to be dumped as a Labour candidate following the demise of Deputy Mayor Chaudhary in Heston West a couple of weeks ago. I am sure this turf war will continue over the coming months.The selection meeting for Hounslow Heath takes place on Wednesday 24th of August and, with a seat reserved for a female candidate, Ms Chopra must fancy her chances. I doubt that Osterley will be her priority in the coming days. Message to intendng Labour voters is - at best, if your candidate gets in you will see her for about 8 months before she ships off elsewhere, at worst, she may have to divert her attention to ensuring she is elected in Hounslow West next May and therefore will not have much time left to deal with constituents.The question that is begging is why stand in Osterley if you really want a safe seat elsewhere?

John Connelly ● 7750d

Another little point for you Jim how Hounslow Homes victimize the ICG and IVYTAG.In all the blocks they have notice boards..the ICG are not allowed to put there leaflets up advertising who there ward Cllr are and when surgery's are.IVYTAG has the same problem we are not allowed to inform residents we exists.Hounslow Homes allow the resident Association (which they control) the bridgelink (which half there committee members are on the residents Association) and Ann Keen (advertising her surgeries) use the boards.Can you tell me if this is victimizing other groups that work hard for the residents on Ivybridge?Simon

Simon Anderson ● 7750d

Wow, just when you think these people couldn't get any worse. And who is the election agent who is trying to foist his disinterested candidate on the unsuspecting voters of Osterley and Spring Grove? You've got it, it's our old mate Alan Sheerins - Mr. Honesty himself!Mr. Connelly - on a scale of 1 to 10, how reliable is this information?

Jayne Owen ● 7750d

Re Ivybridge  ""In all the blocks they have notice boards..the ICG are not allowed to put there leaflets up advertising who their ward Cllrs are and when surgeries are""Simon:On the face of it..that sounds disgraceful..and very dodgy practice.No wonder that the Community Group spend so much of their time and effort in verbal and keyboard battles..airing their grumbles...in these Forums and in the Local Press (when they are given the opportunity).More stories both for and against welcome!

Jim Lawes ● 7750d

It came from a member present at last night's meeting. According to my source the shortlist of 6 (for 3 places) consists of Councillors Sharma, Chopra, Ajmer Dhillon, Ms Chopra, Ajmer Grewal (wife of Councillor Pritam Grewal) and a Mr Randhawa. I have no reason to doubt its authenticity.

John Connelly ● 7750d

Newsletter No 3.  Front and back pages herewith..hopefully.

Jim Lawes ● 7750d

[page 2]RE: Wood Lane success.The traffic camera was installed several years ago after my son wrote to the Police about the cars jumping the lights at this crossing.  Ask any pedestrians and they will say how difficult it is to cross as the cars regularly speed through red lights and if you have a bike or a buggy it is hair raising being stuck in the small middle pedestrian island.I wonder if anyone has asked how this camera is doing?  They called it 'Simons' camera at the time and they did a photo shoot (for the local papers) after it was installed.  Funny thing (not) but as the Police were there placing the film in the camera, cars were going through the lights AND speeding - and didn't care two hoots about the Police presence!

Sarah Felstead ● 7750d

PS Simon and his elder brother both had their photographs taken by Police - using the speed camera, which was a lovely touch, and they are smashing photos.PPS If issues like this come to light only during the election campaigning - how can we go about harnessing ideas and suggestions from the general public during the remainder of the 4 years?  I really liked the Lib/Dems (Andrew Dakers) approach to directly talk to the children in our secondary schools.  The difficulty I could see arising is if the ideas or suggestions were rated on a po-litical rewards type basis and only actioned where points might be scored for an individual, not to improve life or the area in general.I have suggested before that we could do with a proper suggestion scheme through the Borough and if money is then saved – give out money in return, such as a months free Council Tax – Year membership to the Swimming Pool Gym …If I put forward the suggestion, of having a suggestion scheme, … ? 

Sarah Felstead ● 7750d

The second Labour campaign leaflet seems to have started going out today too.Unlike the last effort, this one is filled with news and information - "information", that is, such as "Had Hounslow's Labour Council not listened to and acted upon residents' protests and concerns, Osterley Library (along with two others in the borough) would have closed as a result of the then Conservative Government's 1995 Public Libraries Review".I have no brief at all for the Conservatives, but I distinctly remember that they (like us) campaigned vigorously for Osterley Library to be kept open.  Does anybody remember the campaign by FOOLs (Friends Of Osterely Library)?  Perhaps the election agent in whose name the leaflet appears, one Mr. Sheerins, might like to enlighten us as to whose decision it would be to close or to keep open a library in this borough?Although I have never been a supporter I am saddened by the startegy which local Labour under Alan Sheerins seems to have made its own.  I fear for the integrity of the local elections next May, because there now seems to be no claim nor statement which New Labour will not make, completely irrespective of the facts involved, just so long as somebody somewhere can be found to believe it.How low a once great party has fallen.  The last, desperate throes of a dying animal are always the most dangerous.

Phil Andrews ● 7750d

Real P O'Neill's do exist!  Despite the use of the pseudonym by the IRA, the O'Neills are a distinguished clan who according to legend used to be the High Kings of Ireland.

Michael Robinson ● 7749d

Looks as if I am a victim of the forum apostrophe bug.

Michael Robinson ● 7749d

The subject of closing Osterley Library was most likely contested by the Osterley and Wyke Green residents Assoc..of which Sheila O'reilly was probably the Secretary at the time..and also the local Conservative councillors.Although the Conservative Govt in 1995 might have held a review of Public Library expediture..and why not...the local Conservatives wanted them kept open.See this 1998 Spring Grove Conservative party circular below..page 2..

Jim Lawes ● 7749d

JimAlan Sheerins has been around long enough to have known this.  These people really are the pits, aren't they?

Phil Andrews ● 7748d

Pages one and two

Jim Lawes ● 7748d

Village News No 41.

Jim Lawes ● 7746d

Let's enlarge that back page...so viewers can read it!..hopefully.

Jim Lawes ● 7746d

Thanks JimI think friend and foe alike would agree that we tell it like it is.Kinda puts paid to the "don't mention it and it'll go away - not many voters read the TW8 forum anyway" strategy, does it not?

Phil Andrews ● 7746d

So,with days to go,I wondered how many polling cards or postal vote slips have been issued for this ward election.  8000?What is going to be the likely total of votes cast? 20%?  25%?At the Election Count on Thursday evening at the Civic centre..the four Ballot Boxes will be opened in what sequence?  All four Boxes at the same time on different tables? Or one by one on the same table.?At the recent General Election..teams of counters would open one Ballot Box at a time on their table. They would first of all unfold all the voting slips in that Box and rubber band them in bundles of 100..without any candidate sortation at that stage.The chief counter then notified an Overseer of their count total for that Box..and hopefully it agreed with the "undisclosed" figure of votes cast at that Polling Station..known only to the Overseer. If the overseer disagreed with their count total..the counters were then asked to redo the counting..without them knowing if they were over or short or by what margin.(No weighing scales used to check the 100 quantities..count again by hand!!)Once the Ballot Box total had been reconciled with the Polling Station figure...the counted bundles of all the voting slips from say four Boxes were mixed up..and a sortation by "Candidate" started.  This second stage involves sorting, counting and banding in 100's again.The grand total achieved should equal the total of the four Ballot Boxes. If not,there's a recount!And if the result is close..the candidate sortation can be rechecked.But 2000 voting slips should not take more than a hour..so hopefully the Result should be announced long before 5.30am..as was the case at the recent General Election.Surprisingly weighing scales are not used when a recount is necessary. Weighing bundles of 100 would be so much more productive!I'm on the touchline. The above is just what I observed.

Jim Lawes ● 7745d

I thought the entrance tables looked quite sadly empty tonight when I popped in to see if there were any displays from the 'active' candidates.  Maybe there were, and people have taken all the information home with them?  Maybe the candidates are banned from providing information for public distribution, in Library notice areas?I hoped that I would find display boards from each candidate talking about why they wish to represent us - but the main display was on murder stories.. ... !I had several conversations with the (ashen faced) Librarian at the time there were discussions about closing the Library down.  We were pondering on the necessity for a drive-through MacDonald’s on the site – the nearest MacDonald’s being too far away to service Osterley…Maybe there is truly little support for the Library as an information point?

Sarah Felstead ● 7745d

SarahI can't recall ever having seen political material in a library during an election campaign, indeed it would probably be unlawful.Out of interest, what mateiral were you looking for which you haven't received through your door?

Phil Andrews ● 7745d

From your part, Phil - I have received plenty!  But apart from the Forum postings and an e-mail from Andrew Dakers, I have not received any Lib/Dem information, through our door.  A central point of information with all leaflets displayed would be useful - and yes of course the Library should serve as the information point!  It is central within the Ward up for grabs - so why on earth would it be illegal?

Sarah Felstead ● 7745d

From your part, Phil - I have received plenty!  But apart from the Forum postings and an e-mail from Andrew Dakers, I have not received any Lib/Dem information, through our door.  A central point of information with all leaflets displayed would be useful - and yes of course the Library should serve as the information point!  It is central within the Ward up for grabs - so why on earth would it be illegal?

Sarah Felstead ● 7745d

Sarah Felstead ● 7745d

The library is managed by the local authority and there is a legal requirement for council officers to be impartial and its offices not to be used for the dissemination of political material, etc. (I know Hounslow Homes seems to consider itself exempt from this, but that's another story).Theoretically if the library was displaying all material submitted to it by all the candidates then it would be behaving impartially, however there could still be problems if certain material was refused, or not displayed as prominently as other material, and so on.You have certainly aroused my interest in this and when I get a moment I'll check the position with Borough Solicitor, just out of curiosity, and report back.

Phil Andrews ● 7744d

John Thanks for the update and well done on being so damned honest. The greatest shame should be upon those within the ruling group at the Civic Centre and those within the Labour Party who attempted to lay false charges on you through their malicious intent.

Gareth Evans ● 7744d

Alan Are you able to differentiate between so called “reactionary nonsense” and a statement made under oath in a court of law?

Gareth Evans ● 7744d

Election Day for the Osterley and Spring Grove ward has arrived...and tonight's result is eagerly awaited. Has there been any change in voting preferences...any detectable swings? We'll have to wait till 10.30pm ish tonight to find out.It's a sunny morning and that is a welcome sight for starters.No excuses that it was too wet to go out!  The fine weather today should encourage the locals to nip along to their  Polling Station. There are four of them.Many of the electorate may be away on holiday..but no doubt some will have organised a postal vote. We await news.

Jim Lawes ● 7743d

GOOD LUCK ANDY AND TO THE ICG..

Simon Anderson ● 7743d

The final result was as follows:Sheila O'REILLY (Conservative) - 1008 (52.2%)Bandna CHOPRA (New Labour) - 524 (27.2%)Andy SIBLEY (Community) - 223 (11.6%)Naseem PANKHIDA (Liberal Democrat) - 175 (9.1%)Congratulations are in order to Councillor O'Reilly on a fine victory.As far as we in the ICG are concerned, we are pleased to have received our highest ever percentage vote in the ward and to have established ourselves as the primary opposition to the two main parties.The percentage increase in our share of the vote, if repeated in May next year, would be enough to win all three seats in Syon by a significant margin and (measured against the 2002 by-election result) Hounslow South too.The result represents even more of an achievement when one bears in mind the significant number of electors who were friendly to the ICG but who voted Conservative in order to keep Labour out.  It became obvious to us from a very early stage that this was happening.All in all a big well done to Andy Sibley, and to all the team who worked so hard for this very significant result.

Phil Andrews ● 7742d

Congratulations to Cllr O'Reilly - and to your campaign Phil.  That is a pretty good score for the ICG!I have been waiting up …! :-)

Sarah Felstead ● 7742d

"The result represents even more of an achievement when one bears in mind the significant number of electors who were friendly to the ICG but who voted Conservative in order to keep Labour out.  It became obvious to us from a very early stage that this was happening."Very well done - congrats. Phil.

David Johnson ● 7742d

Thank you David.Incidentally, this site is currently displaying the results incorrectly in that the ICG and Liberal Democrat totals have been transposed.  I have e-mailed Matt asking him to correct this, which presumably he will do in due course.

Phil Andrews ● 7742d

WELL DONE PHIL....great news after being in the hospital with Shivon the last 24hrs..SimonChair of IVYTAG

Simon Anderson ● 7742d

May I also congratulate Sheila O'Reilly on becoming Hounslow's latest councillor.I must thank Phil Andrews for his efforts diring the campaign and all the other members of the ICG. Without their dedication to the cause I would not have done so well. I also thank everyone who voted for me.  Standig as a candidate in this election has enabled me to better understand how local politics work and has given me  a greater desire to be involved in the process. I even enjoyed my time standing outside the polling stations gathering peoples numbers (especially the two hours when Cllr. Adrian Lee turned up). I can't wait for the main election in 2006 and hope to be elected for council then. In the meantime I look forward to debating the issues on this forum.Finally I would like to offer Simon Anderson and his daughter Shivon my best wishes. When you realise what they are going through it puts council elections into perspective.

Andrew Sibley ● 7741d

Thanks Andy..Shivon is still in hospital had to have lots off tests but is doing great hopefully will be home Tuesday.Well done on the result on Thursday..sorry i couldnt be there but was at the hospital...i am glad 4 you though.Simon

Simon Anderson ● 7741d

Last ward election (year 2002)                        This time          % of vote      ChangeConservatives        1035      41.6% of vote    1008              52.2%          +25.5%Labour)                  709    28.5%                524              27.2%            - 4.56%Community            227    9.1%                223              11.6%            +27.5%Lib Dem                337  13.5%                  175                9.1%            -32.6%ABeeC                    182    7.3%                  xxx              xxx            no candidateTurnout                    2490                                  1930If the  Labour Party only managed to attract 524 votes at Thursday's  election..compared with approx 709 last time...that was a drop.  A drop of 185.If they do their sums correctly they will surely be disappointed with their showing. I must say I was surprised at this downturn in Labour Party support..for reasons which I will explain.The Conservatives Party however managed 1008 votes (compared with 1035 last time in 2002). That was a drop of only 27 and therefore they did very well. Look! They had a 25.5% improvement in their share of the voting!Remember that the turnout this time was only 1930 compared with 2490 in year 2002…and so there were 560 less votes cast.The Community Group also did very well...and not surprising in view of all the revelations in their leaflets and booklets.  They managed to get 223 votes compared with 227 last time...and their share of the votes cast rose by 27.5%!All a bit confusing sometimes..these statistics..but its the improved performances, the percentages  and the trends that are most revealing...especially with next year's Borough-wide elections not that far away.To be honest, and without wishing to be racist, I had noticed that in three Southall wards..and more locally in the Norwood Green ward... the Labour Party had attracted between 71% and 88% of voters at the last ward elections in 2002 in those adjacent areas to Osterley. Why, I wondered, did all those British/Asians generally vote Labour...especially when so many are in business on their own or attached to their family's business etc..and owing their own homes..and perhaps several more..seemingly.I couldn't fathom it out!Now, as there are an increasing number of incomers moving into the Osterley and Spring Grove area..(I know because I have lived here 33 years..and all my old friends have moved away!)..I had thought that there would be a swing in this Ward towards the Labour Party..for the reasons mentioned.With Ms Banda Chopra as the Labour Candidate...and with leaflets presumably written by Mr Alan Sherrins I was prepared for daunting news..that the Labour party were on the march in the area..and that they were going to be increasing and not decreasing their one-sided presence at the Civic Centre. Literature about the new Lampton Conference Centre..ideal for big family weddings etc etc.. didn't go un-noticed. It was carefully worded Labour bait to catch the "incomers" vote. Thankfully it didn't work.Thank goodness it backfired. Both the Conservatives and the Community Group increased their PERCENTAGE SHARE of the vote by over 25% each.My beef is not about the Politics but about the Practice.If the Civic Centre is spending £500,000,000 EACH YEAR, and  so little information is revealed about what does and does not go on..it's no wonder that just a few of us would like to peep in and have a look.We appreciate..some of us anyway...that the Civic Centre must be very stretched coping with the demands of the Government, masses of regulations..and the demands of a trying local population. But so much seems hidden away..out of sight of opposition Councillors..away from prying eyes.Did you read that £5,000,000 was uncollected in Council Tax (Conservative leaflet) and that the local Health Board loses £700,000 a year in unreturned patient equipment!(see HM Magazine)  Shouldn't they have thought of that 10 years ago!At present all the mystery is in the cosy cloisters of the Executive Labour group..surrounded by a thick layer of other Labour Councillors, tightly knit and all conforming to the doctrine…with the addition of Labour MP's to give them encouragement, and with possibly a few notorious individuals acting as overseers...and keeping us all at bay ..and in the dark.(opposition Councillors included!)Well, that's my view. And when I asked the Labour Party chappie outside the Polling Station various key questions about the Borough Council..he hadn't the faintest idea about  any answers. He was a very pleasant Asian gentleman..who said he had been in the Labour Party for 10 years..but he was sorry he really didn't know much about it at all.It's about time that the electorate was better informed and aware of local government and related matters..so that they were in a better position to make better judgements. That's  instead of putting a cross on a ballot paper..without having much idea of what they are really doing.

Jim Lawes ● 7740d

"Why, I wondered, did all those British/Asians generally vote Labour...especially when so many are in business on their own or attached to their family's business etc..and owing their own homes..and perhaps several more..seemingly."Primarily because the Labour Party likes to keep them in a state of fear and panic about the intentions of others - the Isleworth leaflet of 2002 being a classic if particularly repugnant example of this.Sadly this deception is often assisted by the elders amongst some Asian communities - witness the by-election in Hounslow South.  In Osterley & Spring Grove, however, I saw little evidence of voting being along ethnic lines, with a hefty proportion of our votes coming from the Asian communities and many others voting Conservative.  The Muslim vote, of course, has already been cut adrift by Labour thanks to its unquestioning support for George Bush's foreign adventures.My own feeling, based upon the evidence of my own eyes and ears, is that the marriage between Labour and the Asian vote is becoming increasingly strained and could soon be heading for divorce.  This will leave Labour with the small and declining rump of people who still vote for them on the strength of their achievements sixty-seven years ago.

Phil Andrews ● 7740d

Andrew do u still believe that Fox hunting Should off Not been Banned?

Simon Anderson ● 6211d

Hi Simon, I think my view has become a bit more nuanced since 2005.  See my recent blog posting on the subject at:http://andrewdakers.ning.com/profiles/blogs/should-a-new-government-repealBest, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6211d

Thanks Andrew

Simon Anderson ● 6210d

I ave read your comments on this Blog but it doesn't give me a clear answer that if you were elected and a vote was taken to bring Back Fox hunting if you would Vote against it or not.I can not vote for a person who thinks Fox Hunting is acceptable so can you give me a Clear answer to my question.Are you for or against Fox Hunting?

Simon Anderson ● 6210d

I am against fox hunting, but I am not of the view that everything we are against can be legislated for.  More legislation has been created than can be kept track of or enforced.  We need to look at the entire body of law - and available police/ enforcement officers time - and then judge what our real priorities are.  My understanding is that illegal hunts continue.  And what are the less cruel ways of culling foxes that we want to promote instead?  All seem pretty grim quite frankly.As I point out on my blog, a better way of reducing animal cruelty, *might* be to spend the state's time and money addressing the harm done by industrial farming.  Simon - What do you think?So if there was a vote on the repeal of the hunting act I would look in much more detail at how and whether the police are able to enforce this legislation -- and whether, given reducing animal cruelty is our shared aim, this is the best way of achieving it.  In answering these questions I am keen to hear views - and draw on the knowledge - of community forums such as BrentfordTW8.com  I hope that's clearer.Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6210d

You seem to want your cake and eat it. If certain animals need to be culled then this should be carried out in as a humane a method as possible, Hunting a poor terrified creature for hours then allowing hounds to rip it to pieces for fun is abhorrent. The law should be tightened and was a gutless attempt - again like you - to have it both ways, and since when did the Police get to pick and choose which laws they are prepared to enforce as they do with this? The Government wasted a golden opportunity to push through  good, strong legislation early on in their first term when they had a whopping majority, faffing around only allowed the Hooray Henries and the middle class articulate pro hunting lobby to organise an opposition. Hunting is cruel, unnecessary, and offensive to decent people and civilised society. Good old Oscar got it right - The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable. Get off the fence.

Vanessa Smith ● 6210d

I have to agree with Vanessa. Its Clear really you are either FOR or AGAINST Fox hunting.If there was a Vote to get rid off the Fox Hunting ban i would hope ALL Mp's would Vote against without Questions.Andrew i am sorry but Vanessa Is Correct Get off the fence!!

Simon Anderson ● 6210d

Vanessa - you haven't yet convinced me to get off the fence regarding the sense of legislating in this area.Although I rarely sit on the fence, on this issue I have no qualms doing so as I'm still exploring the issues."carried out in as a humane a method as possible"What is the more humane method of culling that you suggest?"...since when did the Police get to pick and choose which laws they are prepared to enforce..."Every day the police are making these choices as they have a finite amount of resource. At a local level this could be the choice between time spent doing speed enforcement on the highway v gathering evidence on the supply of drugs.  It is why the Safer Neighbourhood Team panels set local priorities as the police simply dont have the capacity to do everything we might like.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6210d

Simon - see my reply to Vanessa and let me know your views on the problems highlighted.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6210d

AndrewI don't see why you need to sit on the fence and explore Fox Hunting is cruel Full stop and if you are against cruelty to animals you wouldn't need to sit on the fence or explore.

Simon Anderson ● 6210d

Simon - I'm not querying that fox hunting is horrible for the fox.  What I am asking is: 1) whether the police are able to effectively enforce the legislation given all their other priorities (drugs, murder, burglary...); 2) given their finite capacity would animal suffering not be better minimised through legislation to raise standards in industrial farming (eg. battery hens); and 3) what would you suggest is the less horrible way of culling foxes?  Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6210d

Andrew you have raised some good questions but if Fox Hunting is Illegal then surely the Police have the power to Arrest?

Simon Anderson ● 6210d

Mr Dakers has at least tried to answer the question, and this is more than can be said for his Conservative opponent, Mary Macleod.  She has been asked repeatedly for her view on this, and remains silent.  Both Ann Keen (Lab) and John Hunt (Green) are against hunting with hounds, and have said so.  It is my belief that Mary Macleod supports the "sport", because the Countryside Alliance claim that 119 out of 120 Conservative candidates in marginal seats favour a repeal of the ban.Apart from this, I would like to say there are some misconceptions about this issue.  The League Against Cruel Sports say the 2005 Hunting Act is working, and is a valuable piece of legislation, otherwise why do fox hunters want it repealed?  If it is not working well enough, then the league believes that this is because it is not being enforced properly.  The hunting fraternity seem to think they have the right to ignore laws they do not agree with, and as a mainly privileged group of people they are setting a very bad example to others.  Their favoured argument, that fox numbers need to be controlled, is a red herring, because many hunts breed foxes for hunting.  I also do not accept Mr Dakers comments about animal suffering being 'better minimised through legislation to raise standards in industrial farming', because though that may be so, it does not invalidate any of the arguments against fox hunting.  The two things are separate, though related, animal rights issues.  So in conclusion, if hunting with hounds is your main issue and you live in Brentford & Isleworth constituency, the choice is Labour or Green.

Manria Kaur ● 6210d

Possibly Andrew, you have not been hunting and if you have then possibly you have not witnessed a kill.Hounds tear the animal apart and the screams are deeply horrible albeit do not last thankfully too long. The hounds would not do this if this cruel incident was not pre-arranged by man.The people who continue to enjoy hunting manifest a markedly primal and triumphalist satisfaction that they have achieved their objective at a kill. When present at your first kill, the triumphalism is symbolised by a ‘baptism’ of blood on the forehead as a mark of entry into the blood thirsty world of wild animal chasers. It is too long ago for me to know whether the ‘baptism’ in blood still takes place, but it would never surprise me that it happens somewhere.Both these elements separately and together are none other than repulsive. This is not an issue about reason. You need to examine just your feeling on this very highly emotive issue, and then worry about practical solutions – like strengthening enforcement of the law AFTERWARDS. So I suggest that your pious enquiries into working out methodologies and the technical strengths and weaknesses of the law and the police are quite spurious.To put it plainly, you have got your priorities wrong, very wrong.People have been coming up with alternative ways of culling hares and foxes and any other animals which can wreck the assets of our famers for decades and decades. If you want to energise yourself on how to make up your mind on the hunting issue, then a better strategy would be to research the issue with a few humane minded farmers – who are the main victims of damage inflicted by some wild animals - hopefully after your emotions have provided you with an answer to the Yes/No question.You need to stop dithering, rethink your position right here and now, and get off the fence.

George Knox ● 6209d

'a better strategy would be to research the issue with a few humane minded farmers – who are the main victims of damage inflicted by some wild animals'Mr Knox, you are so right, but you omit to mention that humane farmers are not just the victim of foxes, they are also the victim of organised hunts.  Once, I heard from a friend about a farmer who suffered a heart attack, after an altercation with huntspeople who he did not want trespassing on his land.  Huntspeople are invariably very threatening and unpleasant towards anyone they see as getting in their way, and their hunts have been known to damage crops and livestock, and kill pets.

Manria Kaur ● 6209d

We all know hunt people are psychotic mentally disturbed thugs. However , I believe the issue would be better settled by county referenda where there are hunts , ie not in urban areas.

Ian Speed ● 6209d

It is not just hunts people who have a streak of violence. We all do. But until recently, unlike some other violent activity, we did not have a law which countered that kind of violence. The hunts people are struggling to understand this and of course many will not. Stating the obvious, a law which counters violence is because we morally disapprove. So that is why we look to our politicians to express their opinion and then work towards introducing an effective solution. Why has Andrew Dakers got a problem? For a Liberal politician there can’t be many people in London who support hunting. His party does not exactly revel in huge numbers of votes, and surely he does not want this extra Achilles heel holding him back?He needs to change his mind – soon and publicly.

George Knox ● 6209d

"if Fox Hunting is Illegal then surely the Police have the power to Arrest?"Simon - yes.  but having power of arrest is not the same as using it."The people who continue to enjoy hunting manifest a markedly primal and triumphalist satisfaction that they have achieved their objective at a kill..."I also find the sort of ritual you describe to be rather odd - but then I am a pescatarian (aspiring vegetarian!)"This is not an issue about reason. You need to examine just your feeling on this very highly emotive issue, and then worry about practical solutions – like strengthening enforcement of the law AFTERWARDS."Law is not very practical in affecting sustainable change unless you do approach it with some reason.  The reality is that given the mess Labour have made of the economy police forces across the country will be facing severe cuts backs after the general election."If you want to energise yourself on how to make up your mind on the hunting issue, then a better strategy would be to research the issue with a few humane minded farmers "As you would appear to be a long standing campaigner on this issue could you put me in touch with such a farmer?  "I believe the issue would be better settled by county referenda where there are hunts , ie not in urban areas."This is an interesting idea and might be a more sustainable way of winning hearts and minds and making the cultural change really happen.I would still appreciate an answer from one of the campaigners to my genuine queries - then you could hasten my 'getting of the fence' on this issue:1) whether the police are able to effectively enforce the legislation given all their other priorities (drugs, murder, burglary...); 2) given their finite capacity would animal suffering not be better minimised through legislation to raise standards in industrial farming (eg. battery hens); and 3) what would you suggest is the less horrible way of culling foxes?  Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6207d

Andrew, I suspect the thread was hijacked by the question to you on foxhunting.However, if you are comfortable that the police do not appear to be vigilant on breaches of the law regarding hunting, are you worried that they are not as relaxed on the issue of dog fights? Or is it the case that you think those who satisfy their blood lust through foxhunting are a better class of people than those who enjoy dog fights, and that they therefore deserve better treatment from the police?For my part, I have no problem with the human consumption of dogs in Vietnam and elsewhere, but believe that the killing of animals, whether for food or for pest control, should not be carried out for human pleasure.

John Connelly ● 6206d

"comfortable that the police do not appear to be vigilant on breaches of the law regarding hunting"I have never said I was "comfortable" with the police not prioritising breaches in law regarding hunting, but I would certainly be uncomfortable with less police resources being given to some other criminal activity that is taking place in our society.... and unless presented with evidence to the contrary believe we should prioritise legislation and enforcement to improve animal welfare in industrial farms."...are you worried that they are not as relaxed on the issue of dog fights?"Are they less relaxed than with fox hunting?  Any evidence for this?"Or is it the case that you think those who satisfy their blood lust through foxhunting are a better class of people than those who enjoy dog fights, and that they therefore deserve better treatment from the police?"I don't see this through the class lense you imply, but its a striking more moral equivalence that you highlight in foxhunting and dog fights.  Unfortunately the same issues apply of over stretched police resources and the need for cultural change too - rather than assuming legislation alone can be thrown at the problem.  With fox hunting my reckoning is that more cultural change needed to be achieved in rural communities, before a legislative fix was imposed."I have no problem with the human consumption of dogs in Vietnam and elsewhere, but believe that the killing of animals, whether for food or for pest control, should not be carried out for human pleasure."I entirely agree with your point about not killing animals for pleasure, but I am still no more enlightened as to the means of culling foxes that minimises their suffering as sentient beings.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6206d

...support abortion?

Colin Murphy ● 6206d

Thank you for your response.It is up to you how you prioritorise your  approach to the issue of fox hunting. I just really seriously do not think you are going about it in the right way.I am amazed that you find my description of ritualistic behaviour as odd. How would you like the severed end of the brush of a newly killed fox to be used to mark your forehead in blood? I now have to assume that you have most certainly not experienced what goes on in hunting. If you had, or do go to a hunt, then assuming you found the activity still to be abhorrent, then you would say ‘I oppose hunting and accordingly I shall find ways of campaigning to suppress/stop it’. What you are doing is saying you want to find out the possibilities of how to campaign and then say you oppose it. That is what I object to. If using your approach you decide you cannot find a solution, it implies that you will stop being opposed to hunting, or simply say you can do nothing about it and limply walk away. You seem to be on weak ground because you appear to have no experience of hunting and so your order of priority sounds like a claret drinking Hampstead Liberal Democrat.  To oppose hunting IS virtually always and only an emotional response, including for those lawyers who oppose hunting, and is not something which comes into the area of reason. So again you imply you have no experience of hunting. Forget class issue sneers, and just focus on your more mature feelings about murder of animals for pleasure– with prearranged forethought.I have never campaigned against hunting and do not know a farmer. It is up to you to go and find some who oppose hunting. There are plenty who will not tolerate their land being damaged whether they support hunting or not.Tackling the fox hunting issue as part of wider industrial farming regulation is not the right approach. Rearing battery hens or rabbit, which anyway I thought was going to be made illegal in the next decade, has little to do with what is seen as a sport i.e. hunting for animals using a fox hunt or a beagle hunt which is not a commercial undertaking. Also hunting is such a emotive issue that it has to be dealt with separately. What we are simply dealing with is changing our cultural approach to ‘hunting for pleasure’. Please do not muddy the water with how some of our pigs are killed to feed the nation - which could make you a total vegetarian immediately.Never having been a game warden or known one, I cannot advise the most humane way of culling foxes, hares, rabbits or other wild animals which damage crops or farm animals. I would start with investigating marksmen (the deer in genteel Richmond Park are shot), and the use of traps which exclude inflicting physical pain (and about which there is already some legislation)..As regards policing there just has to be more of them showing the teeth of the anti hunting laws. Did someone say there has only been one or two prosecutions? Perhaps you could also ask a few policemen how many hours it takes them to fill in forms when they make an arrest. Then you may have a new campaign.Regrettably for you, it seems you HAVE to tell us publicly when you have got off your fence. If you do not, or if you decide not to oppose fox hunting, you will assuredly lose votes of Londoners. I suggest this debate is not doing your reputation any good at all. Having offered you a solution which is not dishonourable, then take it.

George Knox ● 6206d

A few key points:"Perhaps you could also ask a few policemen how many hours it takes them to fill in forms when they make an arrest. Then you may have a new campaign."I have.  It is far too long, and it is something I have campaigned on, although not as extensively as I would like.  I will certainly try to return to it in the coming months."Regrettably for you, it seems you HAVE to tell us publicly when you have got off your fence."When I get off the fence I will tell you."If you do not, or if you decide not to oppose fox hunting, you will assuredly lose votes of Londoners."That may be the case.  But my decision on this and other issues is based on evidence.If it is any consolation I will commit to arguing for a repeal of the hunting act not being included in the queen's speech over the next five years as I think it would be a waste of parliamentary time having a rerun of the previous debate.  Instead parliament should be focusing on the economic crisis amongst many other problems of our time. Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6205d

Oh come on Colin - that's tripe and you know it. No