Forum Topic

ICU Beds

Just read we have five times less ICU beds than Germany and less than Italy. Also why did the goverment turn down the chance of ventilators through the EU, was it a misunderstanding. Are we ordering masks from China?

Nicholas Beard ● 1963d22 Comments

Nicholas, we have enough ICU beds at present so don't need to bother Germany.

Susan Kelly ● 1952d

Just read in todays Guardian the UK is expected to have more deaths than Spain, Italy, France, and Germany combined. And at the peak we will fall short on ICU beds by 85000.

Nicholas Beard ● 1953d

That is right Philippa so why have we not prepared special ambulance trains and sent patients there? Political dogma perhaps?

Nicholas Beard ● 1955d

Germany has been able to take patients from other countries.

Philippa Bond ● 1955d

Just read that Germany has twice as many ICU beds empty as we have in the NHS in total.

Nicholas Beard ● 1955d

Just seen on Euro news AUSTRIA TO MAKE FACE MASKS COMPULSORY IN SUPERMARKETS. Even our health have not got them yet.

Nicholas Beard ● 1961d

Oh dear. I'm probably as much in the dark about doing this on a phone as you are.  Although I spent a career in IT (starting in the days of punched cards and paper tape) I've not really kept up with the intricacies of technology.

Andy Riley ● 1962d

Thanks

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

On the subject of ICU beds, I can pose a few questions to consider: What are the definitions of "ICU bed" across different countries?How does clinical practice vary?How are the different health care systems funded? In a publicly funded, free at the point of use system, rationing is achieved by either queuing or by some sort of utilitarian calculation (e.g. as implemented by our National Institute for Health and Care Excellence)Could it be that Germany and Italy are over provided?A study carried out in 2012 discusses these issues:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00134-012-2627-8

Andy Riley ● 1962d

Nicholas,I've found the reports you referred to:The Guardian:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/29/uk-strategy-to-address-pandemic-threat-not-properly-implementedThis seems to be a well balanced piece reporting on a planning exercise carried out in 2016 and the following actions and inaction:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_CygnusA number of quotes are given from specialists in the field including critical comments from governemnt sources e.g.:'The 2018 biological security strategy, the UK’s first, stated: “The UK is globally renowned for the quality of our preparedness planning [for] significant biological risks.” It noted that the UK spends hundreds of millions of pounds a year on the issue.“However, these efforts have not always been as well coordinated as they could have been and we have sometimes failed to approach these issues with an international as well as a domestic perspective,” it said. As a result, “we may also fail to maximise the impact of our activities or to tackle issues as quickly as we need to”.'The relevant NHS board report is here:https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/board-paper-300317-item-10.pdfAlso noteworthy is that the UK comes second global in terms on health security capability:https://www.ghsindex.org/And for an overview of what government does for us in relation to thinking about and planning for civil emergencies:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/644968/UK_National_Risk_Register_2017.pdf(I've not read this yet)

Andy Riley ● 1962d

I follow what you say but I am using a phone. Many thanks though. Another thing you may like to look at was the SMOG of the fifties. When it finished a committee was set up but the findings were turned down by a certain member.

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

Assuming you are using a desktop PC:At or near the top of your web browser, there should a text box containing the web address of the page you are looking at (the URL). Position your mouse cursor anywhere in the box and right click, then click on "select all". The text should change colour (highlighted). Right click again and click on "copy". Then position your mouse cursor where you want the URL to be copied, right click and click on "paste". (there are several ways of doing this - my description is just one of them)Alternatively find a 7 year old to show you.Hope this helps.

Andy Riley ● 1962d

Put into google coronavirus government rejected advice. Its there.

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

I dont know how to post a URL.

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

Nicholas,The point of my post was simply to help you to make your points better.  The web sites you are using are big, so it would take some time to track down your references.  Do you know how to post a URL?  (that's the web address in the box at the top of your browser).

Andy Riley ● 1962d

This also appears in the inews and the Guardian. Do you think its fake news?

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

Labours shadow health secretary has also commented.

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

Have a look in the independant. J Hunt passes comment on it.

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

"It now emerges..."You make interesting points but if you don't give sources you could be accuse of spreading misinformation.

Andy Riley ● 1962d

It now emerges that in 2017 a proposal to protect frontline NHS workers with protective equipment in event of a flu epidemic was turned down as too expensive.

Nicholas Beard ● 1962d

It was in Forbes but if you look on the net there are many comparisons. Our need increased roughly 4% a year during the last ten years but nothing happened here because of cuts.

Nicholas Beard ● 1963d

Where did you read this?

Andy Riley ● 1963d