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'I would assume in a well run council councillors on the planning committee would be very reluctant to override an officer's recommendation and if the application involved a councillor they wouldn't even consider doing so.'I think there are other factors at play here - and I speak from experience as a former councillor. Councillors to all intents and purposes are advocates for their community, which they should know very well. I can well remember a planning applicaiton on my patch which the officers recommended for approval, me and a ward colleague were horrified and considered it over development and certainly not in keeping with the area, as we knew the area well.  It was refused at committee and sometime later the officer rang me - having been walking around and actually said - 'You know, you were right, it would have been far too much for the site'. These things are never black and white, another application for a loft extension we thought was dreadful and stuck out like a sore thumb - but officers stood us hard and fast it should be allowed, and it was. However, a long time after the loft work had been completed we happened to have planning enforcement officer on the patch - when he caught sight of this extension he nearly had a fit and thought enforcement action should be taken! My collegaue and I pointed out - knowing the history - that we had actually made all the points the enforcement officer was making at the time of the application, and got told we didnt know what we were talking about. But we would - if any action were to be taken - support the householder - who had jumped through all the required hoops and done nothing wrong.A lot of things, as Adam says, are subjective, elected members should make themselves familiar with their ward, and if on the main planning committee - take the trouble to go and look at sites they are not familiar with in other areas of the borough. If you have any connection with an applicant/application then you should declare an interest and not take part in any meeting that discusses it. Members have to have regard to the professional opinion of officers and the legislation but local knowledge can be a very valuable asset too, in making decisions.

Vanessa Smith ● 1850d

It's not so much an attitude Jeremy, more 22 years experience in this field working on both sides of the fence and a full understanding of the process.Members override Officer recommendations quite frequently, although more often it is when Officers recommend approval and Members overrule and refuse the application.  Sometimes with good/justifiable reasons, other times because they're playing to the public gallery, after all it's that public gallery who elects them.  The identity of the applicant isn't a material consideration to the decision maker, so in the same way the fact the applicant is a Councillor (or an employee) wouldn't affect the Officer recommendation, nor should it influence the Member decision.Many planning issues are subjective and certainly in the case which this particular thread has moved onto the issues were very subjective - if I'd have been the Case Officer I'd have probably recommended approval given the particular site specific circumstances, and I doubt there was consensus amongst the Officers about whether the application should be recommended for approval or approval.  Indeed many times at Hounslow and other authorities when myself and other Senior Officers reviewed reports and recommendations from our colleagues there was disagreement about the recommendation.I might have various planning qualifications, lots of experience and an in-depth knowledge of policies and legislation, but when it comes to design and appearance considerations it is all about subjective judgement.  Afew years back I had an application for a residential redevelopment recommended for approval by Officers, Members unanimously resolved to refuse the application on design grounds, we went to appeal, the Inspector dismissed that appeal.  But again, the Inspector is a single person and in that case the sole issue was subjective, which only illustrates the point further about the importance of subjectivity.

Adam Beamish ● 1852d

In my experience Raymond there is always a degree of pressure from Councillors on Officers, and certainly in my time at Hounslow I was often amused at how one day I might have a Chiswick Councillor venting about my Team being unwilling to enforce against what we considered to be a minor breach of the regulations that caused no harm, and then the next I'd have a Central Hounslow Councillor asking if a 10 metre deep unauthorised extension was a big deal.Did I ever feel pressured or coerced by a Member into a recommendation I didn't agree with ? - no.  Could a less experienced or younger officer have felt pressured ? - yes.  But to me that's part of the job, I joined LBH having previously worked for 2 authorities where enforcement recommendations were rarely questioned or challenged, and I felt that I 'grew up' so much during my 5 years at Hounslow because within that environment it was essential that you robustly covered everything.Of course when I was at Hounslow I was aware that certain Members were excessively swayed by non-planning related considerations, and as I've said many times everytime any of us had a conversation with a Councillor that dialogue was recorded on a blue sheet - there may still be folders with notes from me stating things like "Councillor X asked if I could 'help' this person as they are a financial contributor to his political party."As Officers we recorded it but it didn't influence our professional responsibilities.  A minority of Councillors make some absurd decisions on enforcement matters at my time in Hounslow, and quite rightly that came back to bite them when an unhappy resident went to the Ombudsman.    And, certainly at that time, it wasn't that Officers ignored such conduct at committees, many times I saw Terry Welsh or Mike Smith robustly point out to those Members that they were treading on dangerous territory.As I've also said previously, I left local government under something of a cloud after a mere 9 weeks at another London authority, having been suspended for "failure to carry out a reasonable management instruction".  In that particular case I was told (not asked) to do something relating to a matter which was now lawful, and which on 2 recent occasions colleagues had tried to engage with the owners to do something voluntarily to minimise the harm caused by that lawful development.  I expressed the view that as we'd already been rebuffed twice, as the matter was actually lawful and therefore we had no right to do anything, and as we had a backlog of 'live' investigations where we could do something, wasn't it an inappropriate use of limited resources.  The curt response I got was that it was not for me to question anything, and I would do as I was told.  Now that's a red rag to a bull to me, so I refused and got suspended having failed my probationary period solely because I wouldn't do what I'd been told to do. Quite why I wasn't just let go I don't know, but we went through the whole farce of a hearing, and at the end of that hearing, and without any suggestion from myself, I was told that I wasn't getting my job back, but also given a cheque equating to 3 months salary.That whole experience wasn't 'dodgy' as such, but it made me realise that there are Officers in high positions who will run roughshod over their staff no matter what.  And I wouldn't return to the public sector for any amount of money after that experience - fortunately for me it proved to be the best career move I ever made, even if it was never my intention, as I was called in for a interview by a major housing developer because they liked the fact I didn't just blindly follow instructions.  But there were other colleagues I worked with both at that authority and elsewhere, one in particular whom I really think could have gone far in the planning world, but they stayed at that authority for several years after the controversy of my departure and their career basically went nowhere because they settled for an 'easy life' (sorry if that person is reading and doesn't agree).Finally, going back to this particular issue, this really isn't a shenanigan or doing favours, it is a finely balanced case as to whether or not the proposed extension causes any material harm, and much as I have alot of time for all the hard work Cllr. Todd does and his commitment to his constituents, I really think in this case there isn't anything more than a finely balanced decision which didn't go the way he felt it should have.

Adam Beamish ● 1852d

You'd think by now Councillors sitting on the planning committee would know what an "illegal" extension actually is, but based on Vanessa's transcript in her post the vice-chair of the Planning Committee doesn't - one wonders what training Members get these days...I knew nothing of this case before Vanessa's post, but were it not for the fact the applicant is a Councillor I don't personally feel this is a 'big deal'.The existing extensions on both sides of the application property are lawful, 1 seemingly through the passage of time (it's been there over 17 years) and the other benefits from permitted development rights.  So neither existing extension is either illegal or unlawful, indeed precisely the opposite, they are both entirely lawful.And I don't understand how a proposed extension could be either 'unlawful' or 'illegal', that is absolute nonsense.  How many times have I written on these forums about the importance, when objecting to planning applications, of remaining credible by not exaggerating things or making comments that are completely false ?.No, the proposed extension doesn't comply with the Council's guidance, but given the existing, LAWFUL extensions to both sides of the application site (which have to carry weight when assessing the impact of the proposed extension), it's a very subjective call as to whether the proposed extension would cause any material harm or be unacceptable in these site specific circumstances.My own view would be that the proposed extension wouldn't have any adverse impact on neighbours, and the judgement would therefore boil down to whether the extension would harm the living conditions of the occupant of the bedroom.But as I say it really is a storm in a tea-cup.  At least back in my day we had to deal with a minority of Members who were clearly making decisions based on matters other than relevant planning considerations and consequently got dragged over the coals by the Ombudsman.

Adam Beamish ● 1853d

"SHAME!" CRIES CLLR JOHN TODD: FORMER DEPUTY MAYOR CLLR SOHAN SUMRA GETS "ILLEGAL" HOUSE EXTENSION AGAINST PLANNING DEPARTMENT'S RECOMMENDATION. Cllr Todd said: 'This is an unlawful extension. This (Planning Committee) has an obligation to uphold standards disregarding the applicant."Also opposing it, Planning Committee Vice-Chair Cllr Richard Foote said: "Having two illegal extensions either side of this, which got away with it, should not make an illegal application legal.""Shame," cried Cllr Todd when Planning Chair Cllr Amritpal Mann said: "I have no objection to this getting through. You can cry 'shame' but I have a different opinion. I regard it as an infill."Cllr Shivraj Grewal said he believed the extension would not be harmful to the neighbours, a position supported by fellow committee members Cllrs Khulique Malik and Hina Mir.The extension was approved by 4-2 votes.The application related to 21 Manor Avenue, Hounslow. Cllr Sumra – who has served as Deputy Mayor – wishes to build a single storey rear extension to a house described as a "Home of Multiple Occupation". Six people live there.Council planner Sam Smith had recommended that Planning Permission be refused, stating: "The proposed rear extension would be of a size, scale and position that would result in unacceptable loss of light and outlook, and an increased sense of enclosure to the adjacent neighbouring property. Furthermore, it has not been demonstrated that as a result of the increased depth of the ground floor rear bedroom sufficient daylight or sunlight would serve this room to maintain adequate standard of accommodation for the occupant. The proposed design would also be harmful to the character and appearance of the house within the local area."https://democraticservices.hounslow.gov.uk/documents/s162140/21%20Manor%20Avenue%20Hounslow%20P20194541.pdfA full recording of the meeting can be seen on You Tube here: Planning Committee - 9 July 2020 https://www.youtube.com/

Vanessa Smith ● 1853d

What I was told was that Cllr Curran wasn't annoyed about the coverage of the Boathouse issue per se but the report that said the redevelopment and the building of the Barnes Walkway were to be paid for out of the borough's School Expansion Fund. The council leader claimed this was fake news, demanded retraction and threatened to set his learned friends on the site. The report remains available online.Steve Curran's behaviour seems bizarre because the use of the school budget apparently had cross party support. It wasn't likely to be used and grabbing it for these projects allowed them to proceed at a time when otherwise money wouldn't have been available. The Conservatives were okay with it because the money was being spent in Chiswick. Perhaps he hoped that in the absence of political opposition to the move it would pass unnoticed.I don't think it is the case that Hounslow don't put planning notices here because the site doesn't qualify as a newspaper. The current government advice is very explicit on this matter. The latest Coronavirus (COVID-19): planning update guidance says “if local newspapers are not circulating in their area, authorities should seek to use local online news portals in the first instance”.I don't know what the situation is for Boston Gardens or Brentford in general but the Chronicle and Informer hasn't been seen in Chiswick for most of this year with copies not available even before lockdown. Hounslow can't seriously argue that if some copies are available somewhere in the borough that constitutes 'circulating in their area.'I know Adam will always insist on the good faith of the planning authority and knows the department in Hounslow from the inside. BrentfordTw8.com may not have the readership of ChiswickW4.com but most people I know in TW8 are avid readers and it seems to have a decent reach as well as regularly covering planning stories. If the borough genuinely wanted to ensure people were being made aware of what was being planned in their area they would use it. There seem to me two possible explanations for them not doing so, they want to minimise awareness of applications to reduce their workload or they have been told by Steve Curran not to heed government advice because of his personal vendetta. Either way pretty shabby.

Paul Corcoran ● 1853d

Bravo Jim ! - you've summed the position perfectly !.Essentially the only considerations the LPA can have regard to when determining the prior approval application are siting and appearance considerations, which you'd think are sufficient strong grounds for prior approval being refused, but to do so the LPA would be need to demonstrate actual harm.I suspect there must be a covering letter or such like with the application, as the application forms refers to "site specific supplementary information", but reviewing the various documents uploaded to the website none of those appear to cover consultation with the landowner, neighbouring properties and so forth.  Which is worth raising to the LPA as I sometimes find that LPA's in error do not upload every document to their websites (which even as an agent annoys me).Of course siting and appearance concerns are wholly subjective but equally that gives residents an opportunity to object as such grounds aren't technical, as long as those residents do not 'taint' their otherwise credible objections by going off on one about health concerns and such like.Turning to Raymond's post, I see enough applications submitted which are very poor in terms of both their quality and substance, and LPA's will and do refuse such applications, only for the applicant to then come back with another application which effectively makes a proper job of the submission.FWIW, and as I often say to people remember I am a human being with my own personal views regardless of my profession/career, whilst many areas of planning are complex, to me that has to come with the territory.  Additionally, I don't believe the current system doesn't give third parties the chance to have their say or influence decisions.  Indeed, when I attend planning committees all over the country what I often see is some Members "playing to the public gallery", i.e. voting against an application just to keep their constituents happy, and of course if the horrible independent Inspector comes along and allows the appeal then that Member can also say they did their bit for the residents.Often objectors come up to me and say "you don't care, you don't live next door".  Which is true, but I do live somewhere, so equally I have to deal with things around me that I personally don't like or would prefer to be elsewhere.  And unfortunately, very few of us can always have what we want around us, or for the status quo to never change.

Adam Beamish ● 1855d

I would be very interested to have Adam's opinion on this mast. At first sight it appears that this revolves around the very simple matter of whether or not the proposed development would comply with Condition A.3(4)(a) of Schedule 2 Part 16 and Schedule 2 Part 16 Class A Paragraph A.1 (c)(i)(aa) of the General Permitted Development Order. What could be clearer?So far as I can make out, the site is on "unprotected land" in that it is not in a Conservation Area or is not otherwise strongly protected. It is designated as Metropolitan Open Land. The maximum height of a mast which would constitute "permitted development" in this case is, I believe, 25 metres. This cheeky little mast is just under 20 metres high.Prior approval from the local planning authority is required. Hounslow have 56 days in which to issue a decision and during this period a site notice should be displayed for at least 21 days in at least one place on or near the land to which the application relates, and there is a need for some form of local advertisement e.g. in a local newspaperAt the end of the day there's not a lot (probably nothing) that Hounslow can do in this case.Last year the Government issued a consultation on "Proposed reforms to permitted development rights to support the deployment of 5G and extend mobile network". I am sure that most of us made our own responses to this consultation which proposed, amongst other things, that the height of masts which would qualify as permitted development should be increased.I know that I will have got some of this wrong but I am now going to retire, with a large glass of whisky, to a darkened room.

Jim Storrar ● 1858d

"It does suit a lot of powerful interests that the public are kept out of the loop on plans like this."That's the usual conspiracy theory Dan, but it simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.If an application gets approved without the LPA carrying out the statutory consultation required under the Order, that permission is at risk of being declared a nullity when challenged in the High Court, which will cost the applicant significant sums in terms of both time delays and having to resubmit, all because the LPA didn't do its job properly.The only reason I usually flag up with a client the potential for significant local opposition to a proposal is to make the client aware that in such circumstances it's more likely the application will be referred to committee for decision (usually meaning the decision will take longer), and in turn that increases the possibility of Members playing to the public gallery at committee and overturning the Officer recommendation, leading to increased costs and delays to my client in having to pursue an appeal.Harsh as it may sound, upsetting the locals is part of the job, I wouldn't be doing my job if my advice to a client, either wishing to build something or wishing to object to an application, was in some way swayed by concerns about local residents objecting.  And most of the time clients recognise that it comes with the territory and will ride it out, that's why I will usually flag up the potential for local opposition at an early stage, so that the client is under no illusion.

Adam Beamish ● 1858d