Forum Topic

Local Conservative Party leaflet said;£5million Council tax was unpaid last year!!

Has there been any follow up to this claim mentioned by the Conservatives Party in their election leaflet (Newsletter No2)..circulated at the time of the recent By Election in Osterley and Spring Grove.£5,000,000 is a vast sum of money. Does that mean that something like 4000 or more households in the Borough have not paid!..thus placing an extra burden on those that do pay..when the Council tax plans are calculated for the following year.It does seem outrageous. But additionally alarming is the lack of information about it. Can someone throw light on this subject?

Jim Lawes ● 7182d19 Comments

Good news: Or is it?The local Conservative Councillor Barbara Reid has come up with a prompt response to my e-mail..and I'm grateful to her for that.Sadly the £5,000,000 unpaid Council Tax matter (per annum) seems to be confirmed. I'll dig out the information from Barbara's reply and post some details here. (JL bit busy this week!)

Jim Lawes ● 7166d

Copy of letter sent to the local Conservative Party.""Re £5,000,000 unpaid Council Tax claim.Greetings from Isleworth to you all.On the Brentford (and Isleworth) Community Forum, (brentfordtw8.com), we have raised a query about the unpaid Council Tax claim made in your Election Leaflet for the Osterley and Spring Grove ward.We would like to think that someone would have drawn your attention to this Forum topic ..as we were hoping for a response to the query raised. But sadly no. No information..we are in the dark!Whilst the Brentford (and Isleworth) Forum is less active than its Chiswick relation..it is nonetheless of value to the community..and local Councillors' input on occasions would be both welcome and appreciated. Indeed you could even win further support..by explaining matters of local interest on this expanding medium.Could someone click onto the Brentford Forum  and perhaps provide some information?Many thanksYours faithfully Jim Lawes""

Jim Lawes ● 7169d

Thank you all for your replies..about the Conservative Party's Election Leaflet claim that £5,000,000 Council Tax bills were outstanding..and unpaid.It's a pity that no-one from the Conservative Group has been alerted to this Forum's enquiry..or if they have..that they haven't felt able to offer any further information. So they won the recent Osterley and Spring Grove ward seat..with an alarming claim about unpaid taxes..but haven't provided us/me with further information. I will e-mail them via the local Conservative Groups'website immediately..and hopefully that can participate in this Forum.

Jim Lawes ● 7169d

Yes, Phil, I would be glad of a fairer tax than the present Council TaxRe: unpaid Council Tax.  This is a scandal.  I confirm that I was told by accounts some months ago that they were in arrears goodness knows how much with this problem.  Owing to matters beyond my control, I had received from accounts a threatening letter because my payment was over-due by a month.  I complained at the use of their language and at their attitude towards what had been up to them a regular payer. This was, they said, the standard letter sent to everyone in arrears of payment - no excuses, no apology.  Bad debtors were all treated the same for whatever reason - because of the amount of non-payers.  So I believe that figure others have quoted!

Lois Westby ● 7169d

Some interesting comments here.Speaking personally, not only do I live on an estate where one in four people (according to figures I was reading yesterday) default on debt repayments, but it is also one which the London Borough of Hounslow doesn't realise exists.I promise I am not making this up.  A few years back when the "Mill Parc" development was erected at the back of the West Middlesex Estate, people from miles around were consulted for their views but us residents of the WME (which is the only point of road access into and out of Mill Parc) were not.When I asked why this was the case I was informed by the planning department that they were using an old OS map for reference and our 141-dwelling estate was showing as an empty field!I reckon I must be a good bet for getting my Council Tax written off if I set my mind to it.  Any ideas?

Phil Andrews ● 7174d

Jim,The computer system at Hounslow is set up to ensure that once a council tax account goes into arrears letters are automatically sent out to advise that the whole amount is then due (right to installments is lost once arrears accrue).If no action is taken by the person notified the next stage is to issue a summons for the magistrate's court. Beyond this point the matter is passed on to baillifs.Judging by the case work I receive on council tax there is no evidence to suggest that Chiswick is prioritised for payment. What happens if the baillifs fail to obtain payment is another matter.As an aside, while I respect the woman who decided to go to jail to protest at council tax I thought she was in a contradictory position. As a retired social worker she is presumably in receipt of a council pension. One of the reasons council tax has soared in recent years has been the need to raise funds to meet the deficit in the pension fund. I doubt that she would be very happy if the council advised her that her pension was being reduced in order to keep her council tax increase in line with inflation. (Note that I am aware that the powers do not exist to do this)

John Connelly ● 7175d

Thanks for the advice Phil. I'll try and get to the meeting..otherwise I'll have to send an e-mail to the Conservatives Councillors via the Civic Centre.I tuned in to LBC Radio this afternoon just as they were talking about the subject of non payment of Council Tax by many people..and how some Councils might go about collecting these arrears.Apparently if a Council finds that it has some 2000 non-payers...it will concentrate its resources on chasing those 1200 people that it thinks might pay up..and ignore those 800 where they might be wasting their time!!  This is undertaken by reference to postcodes!!..and by using the services of a credit agency like Esperian who have extensive data bases relating to each household within each postcode area.Esperian call this postal code database a MOSAIC.I have no idea what happens in Hounslow..and one wonders if anyone else does!It could be Hounslow Council might decide to chase non-payers in Chiswick  as they might have a better chance of success...whilst leaving aside tough cases in difficult areas of the Borough!  So..live in a posh Road..and you'll get hounded. Live in a no-go area..and you might save yourself some money!But this selective activity..whilst being sound economic sense..is unfair..and not PC...is it?.  When British Transport Police were checking on Tube passengers after 7/7 there were calls that they should be checking ALL passengers..(including 70 years old white limping ladies) not just those fitting a more likely description of a bomber.But £5,000,000..the figure published in that leaflet to the electorate of Osterley and Spring Grove..should not be just left hanging in the air unsubstantiated…in my view. 

Jim Lawes ● 7175d

JimPlease note that the Area Committee meeting this Thursday begins at 7.00pm, not 7.30pm as is normally the case.I would suggest you speak to Councillor Luke Kirton (Chair) in advance to let him know of your proposal to raise the matter, as although the committee has an "Open Forum" at which members of the public can make comments, it is brief and the agenda on this occasion is unusually long.Best of luck with this.

Phil Andrews ● 7175d

Alan:I have no further information other that the Election Leaflet.I plan to ask the question at Thursday's Isleworth and Brentford Area Meeting..if I manage to get there.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4280040.stmReading today's news item about the Devon pensioner being jailed for non-payment of a smallish sum...I wonder if Hounslow persue non payers with such gusto. The opinions of posters on that BBC website is of interest too.

Jim Lawes ● 7175d

JimDo you know if the Borough Treasurer has reported on this issues to the Council. Have you looked for any reports on this issue so it could be put into context ? If your only source of information on this is a party political leaflet, for obvious reason, it is unlikely to be able to provide a full explanation

Alan Sheerins ● 7177d

Bernadette's experience indicates that the Council can be hot on the case..in some cases. I do hear of single parents being collared for the extra charge when their child leaves School for good..and is at home awaiting the start of the University term...the mother no longer benefitting from the "sole occupancy" discount.The failure of Hounslow Council and the appropriate  Government Minister in agreeing the population figure for the Borough is, I agree, a separate issue...resulting, as it does, a lesser sum of money from the Government.So..the £5,000,000 uncollected Council Tax figure still needs to be explained. Is it true?  Its a staggering pile of money.And 4000 households not paying? We deserve to be told. 

Jim Lawes ● 7178d

Does Hounslow compare poorly to other Councils? This number isn't really helpful unless we have some form of comparison.I did read some time back that having a large amount of uncollected Council Tax may not necessarily be a sign of inefficiency. Some Councils write off debts very quickly to make their unpaid debts look small. Once you have written it off you stop attempting to get payment. Some Councils leave unpaid debts on their books for years because they refuse to give up on chasing the person who owes them money.

Mike Hardacre ● 7178d

PaulNo Local Authority will know the exact number of people living in their area.  This Borough has a high turnover, at best the Council can make a good guess at the number of residents. A census is only conducted every 10 years, a lot changes in 10 years. However Council tax is a property tax. The number of properties is much easier for the Council to estimate. With respect I cannot see the connection between the Council not knowing the exact number of people living in the Borough and Council Tax collection, if that is the connection you are making.

Alan Sheerins ● 7178d

it may be an indication of the council's efficiency in these matters if I tell you that one of my daughters bought a ground floor flat in which she lived alone.  I then bought the upstairs flat in which I lived alone.  However there were 2 Pauls in the property.  She claimed single occupancy relief as did I.  However last year she got married sold her flat and moved to Cheltenham.  I came home from work one evening to find a card had been put through the door from the council tax department wishing me to make an appointment for them to visit me.  I telephoned the council the next day to find out what they wanted and was told they wanted to talk to me about my benefits.  I pointed out that I was not on benefits, except for the single occupancy allowance.  Yes the woman said, and you have had your daughter living with you!I explained at length that we had been living separately in two totally different flats albeit in the same house.  I then had to point out that we  had both been paying council tax and if we had been doing something wrong the council would surely owe us money as 1 council tax payment would be cheaper than two single payments.  The penny did eventually drop but not until I had written several letters.

Bernadette Paul ● 7179d

With respect though Alan,Hounslow Council admitted earlier this year that they had no idea whatsover how many people actually live in the Borough so many many thousands will never be collected.

Paul Fisher ● 7179d

In understand that Hounslow is in fact one of the better collectors of Council Tax. Any organisation that has to collect tax or rent or subscription will always have a percentage outstanding at the end of an accounting period. It is likely that most of this tax will be collected in subsequent years. The best way to measure this type of collection is as a percentage of the income that could be collected, account will always have to be taken of bad debts etc. The statement about the £5 Million does not tell us if the tax is for previous years and how old the debts are or if those who owe have agreements to pay etc.

Alan Sheerins ● 7179d

The sad point about your last post though Jim is you are spot on with your observations.Why do we all allow these people to carry on squandering our hard earned cash unhindered?

Paul Fisher ● 7180d

Jim:You're not being clever drawing these matters to readers' attention.. you're just trying to rock the boat. I know we said about the £5,000,000 in our Election leaflets....but that  was just to stir the porridge. The figure may well be more!We're not telling you what information we have..or where we get it from.  Just leave us all alone. You can be sure that  won't get an answer from us..and you certainly won't get an answer from them.Its all nicely sorted out thank you very much. When the Leader of the Council comes round to our Area Committee at Annual Budget time...he'll be so late with his collated sets of papers..that they'll be no time to check or understand the figures...and although his team spends £500,000,000 each year..he will only give pie charts and the like to look at. ...nothing that can really be challenged in a detailed way.So..off you go you little inquissitor..you're wasting your time and ours!

Jim Lawes ● 7180d

A tiny question which is far too big to answer......Why?

Sarah Felstead ● 7181d