Forum Topic

Anti-social noise and rubbish in central Brentford

On Sat 18th Sept there was an appallingly loud, vaguely musical racket, bam! bam! bam! somewhere West of Market Square. It got really loud after midnight and seemed to get even louder until around 1am. Does anyone know where it was coming from? Private party? Holiday Inn? Whatever, it must have kept many people awake in central Brentford, it was so ridiculously loud and late. Then at the end of the next night, maybe 08:45 a young guy, a bit the worse for wear, started blaring very nasty-sounding distorted music from a large portable speaker in the Market Place. So much for a Sunday lie-in for 100+ more people. There was also, on Sunday morning, a huge quantity of KFC rubbish all over the place. KFC never seem to collect the excessive packaging they inflict on us. Don't they have any obligations to behave responsibly? And when did anyone last see any actual enforcement of rules against such anti-social behaviour? We seem to have plenty of rules but little enforcement. Maybe using pounds and ounces will be robustly enforced next year. Ruled by donkeys?

Eric Baker ● 948d16 Comments

Hounslow deploy CCTV extensively, indeed they upgraded the network a couple of years ago and created a central monitoring centre.But the trouble with CCTV is that it is not very effective at catching flytippers, though it does have some deterrent effect.As for proactivity, we have recently implemented as an experiment a 'Special Waste Service' focused on the borough's worst flytipping hotspots - mainly in central Hounslow. This team of 4 officers has issued 455 Fixed Penalty Notices - mainly for £400 before prompt payment discount - in 6 months of operation and collected over £60K in fines from the two thirds of fines paid so far. They have also advised any households and helped them to secure facilities and identified other abuses such as unregistered Houses in Multiple Occupation.As a result our worst hotspot, Kingsley Road, is now more or less free of flytipping and a number of other sites have been radically improved.We are likely to extend this approach once funding is approved.Our previous attempt to name and shame via publicly viewable CCTV footage 'Grime and Punishment' resulted in no successful tracing of perpetrators, though we are looking to revive this experiment also.We are also actively (if more slowly than I'd prefer) providing receptacles for the rubbish generated by people who live in flats above shops, so they no longer dump bags on the pavement. Apart from being a problem in themselves they tend to attract 'copycats'.These are all proactive initiatives, as is the behaviour change work we are doing with expert advisors. Not all will work and they take a time to roll out when they do, but I don't think anybody can accuse us with justification of not trying to be proactive.Flytipping is notoriously hard to resolve (see recent TV documentaries from around the country) but it is a scourge on the street scene. We are excellent - Hounslow Highways record of collecting reported flytips within 24 hours shows achievement levels well above 99% - at clearing flytips when they occur but I want to stop them happening in the first place.We are just beginning to see results

Guy Lambert ● 934d

You mention ticks. These are very very dangerous. I went to a vet and bought a tick remover some time ago. Also you can get paper tick removers.

Nicholas Beard ● 936d

Having a board up is a very good idea. I have seen similar for the cleaning of toilets.

Nicholas Beard ● 936d

Sounds like a horror film!

Brian Daniel ● 937d

Agreed Raymond.  Where I live now there's a Council owned country park nearby and the road to that park is a flytipping hotspot.  The Council's way of dealing with that isn't to install CCTV, or even put up signage suggesting there might be CCTV, but to simply come along every few weeks and clear that flytipping, which includes car tyres, car seats and all sorts, and the situation repeats itself every few weeks.  So the flytippers get away scot free, the Council wastes time and money clearing that rubbish, and more and more people see that and think "hey, let's dump our rubbish there too", so the problem only increases and increases.This is the problem with most public services now full-stop, they are always reactive rather than proactive - the Council's logic is that putting up CCTV or signage will cost x amount, and x is always too much for an immediate/short-term, whereas the cost of monthly clean-ups is vastly higher than x but that's a long-term cost so it's seemingly fine. As I always say, local authorities don't help themselves.

Adam Beamish ● 940d

Take a walk around or sit in a car in the small hours in Brentford near the Ballymore sites or up at the A4 or in South Ealing near the station. It is alive with rats and foxes. Scavenging.  The Butts may be nice but it too has lots of them running about. Some obviously come from the river, canal and sewerage outlets but there are more than I've seen in 4 decades here.The amount of long grass and weeded areas has created a haven for vermin to roam wider and has also created an additional health hazard of Ticks, Fleas and risks of Toxoplasmosis and Weils disease as well as respiratory and skin irritations from spores and pollens which are why certain wild plants are contained in areas of population. But it is also propagating vermin.Some of it is litter but Foxes and Squirrels have mastered accessing Wheelie Bins and Food Boxes and raid recycling bins for almost anything.Whilst people should know better and there seems to be many who need cleanliness drummed into them, This cannot be done with Vermin or Wildlife.So certainly take out food outlets must do their bit but so must people's responsibility and that of the authorities to maintain and keep urban areas properly cleanses and maintained.

Raymond Havelock ● 940d

Of course Guy, I understand that, but from my experience as an LPA officer that "simple view" can cause problems further down the line, and whether you or I would like a restriction to be imposed or not it's fundamentally crucial that any such restriction is lawful.Back in my day at LPA's if a Member suggested a condition be imposed that was "iffy" in terms of its reasonableness or enforceability, either myself or the Borough Solicitor would say so.  Whereas generally speaking nowadays I often find Officers or Borough Solicitors say very little about such matters at Committees.  And then 12 months down the line a condition requested by Member is breached, both the public and that Member (quite rightly) expect the Officers to enforce, and then the Officers say "well actually the condition isn't reasonable so can't be enforced".  Which isn't a position that Officers, Members or the public should be placed in.

Adam Beamish ● 940d

Frankly Adam I don't know if it's lawful. I asked for the condition, was told the franchisee was happy to accept it, and it was appended to their licence. I have a simple view that if someone agrees to do something clearly in writing then I expect them to abide by it.

Guy Lambert ● 940d

Just to add, I have been in email dialogue with the franchisee this morning and am advised that more frequent litter picks are being undertaken by KFC employees (and before anyone asks no I don't know how often they were being carried out previously).

Adam Beamish ● 941d

Guy, I wasn't aware of the licensing condition (I'm 'just' the planning consultant and not a licensing expert) but I'd question whether any such condition is actually lawful/enforceable.  If it is worded as quoted then it's very generalised, are KFC employees expected to pick up any discarded litter within that area regardless of whether it is KFC litter or not ?.  Has such a restriction been imposed on any other premises such as McDonalds or even the new stadium ?.I often have this argument on similar planning applications, because planning conditions are only supposed to relate to the red line area of the application site, an authority can't require an applicant to do something outside the curtilage of that red line area.Generally speaking litter is one of my greatest bugbears both professional and personally, mainly because I don't understand the mentality - where I now live we have several visitor parking bays and it's quite common for people (including random bods, visitors and even residents) to park  up in one of those spaces (and we are over a mile away from the nearest McDonalds), eat their meals and then just drop the resulting litter out of their car windows.Like with everything, if the enforcement was more rigorous and targeted at the actual perpetrators there might be an improvement.

Adam Beamish ● 941d

Chris Dakers, thanks for that. I have written to the assistant director of enforcement (who also looks after licensing) seeking enforcement of this condition

Guy Lambert ● 942d

I pick up the KFC rubbish dropped in my section of Upper Butts, also retrieve the KFC debris left by foxes in my garden. Never seen anyone from KFC picking up their debris in Brentford High Street. Should have a board up in their shop being signed daily by the person collecting rubbish on High Street confirming it has been done.

Chris Dakers ● 942d

I;m reminded of the following condition which is attached to their licence back in 2019"13. Litter picking will be under taken both sides of the High Street and Half Acre from the junction with The Butts to Brentford bridge, once during the afternoon and once at close of business."I am not convinced they have ever made any attempt to fulfil this obligation, which was added as a result of councillors' (mainly this one I think, though not my ward) requests.I will take this up with the licensing team to check and if necessary enforce but it would be interesting to note whether anybody has seen KFC doing this.

Guy Lambert ● 942d

Surely if a litter tax of say 50p was added to items this could assist the council in cleaning up.

Nicholas Beard ● 943d

I was surprised to come across the bass beats from the remnants of a rave party (~80 people still present at 11am - many waering sombreros ! ) on Sunday morning at the far southeastern corner of Long Wood. Just inside the boundary of Ealing where the freight railway between Brentford and Southall crosses under the M4.2.3km from there to Market Square. But that's about the same distance as from my house near Isleworth Station to the events in Boston Manor Park which I have occasionally heard.No other reports ?

Tim Henderson ● 943d

I can't promise anything Eric, but as the planning consultant who got permission for the KFC I've bring your comments about litter to the attention of the franchisee.Sadly the responsibility lies with the morons who purchase stuff and then discard of the resulting litter inconsiderately.  The attitude of some people never ceases to amaze me, and to me no amount of education or deterrent will ever change the mindset of that minority, be it in terms of litter, noise or just a simple consideration for other people or the environment.

Adam Beamish ● 948d