Forum Topic

Hounslow Campaigning on Heathrow Issues

Sarah Felsted and Dan Evans state in another thread that no-one is representing them on issues around aircraft noise and Heathrow.  ~Well, I ope the following puts the record straight . . Dear Sarah and DanYou say no-one represents you over the planes issue.  Unless you are among the minority in the borough who support expansion of Heathrow, both within the existing two runways, and Runway 3, then I would suggest that the Council is representing you, I have been leading Hounslow Council's Campaign against expansion at Heathrow for three years now - against: Runway 3, more night flights, the loss of Runway Alternation, and in favour of proper noise insulation schemes.  Are you not aware of this (we get enough coverage in hm, the local papers etc) or are you saying we're not doing enough?  For details see our website - www.hounslow.gov.uk.  For starters, we are lobbying MPs and (tomorrow) the House of Lords, on the Civil Aviation Bill.  Clause 2.2 of this allows the extra 2 flights per night and we are promoting the amendment to get it deleted.  Sleep disturbance studies show that once you wake, it is difficult to return to full sleep again, even if the subsequent plane is quiet ie it doesn't matter how quiet or noisy the plane is.  As a result of our campaigning work we got a recognition of the needs of residents acknowledged in the 2003 Aviation White Paper,  - a first for the Department of Transport I think.  We also got the Community Buildings Noise insulation scheme - £5m pa for at least 5 years, to double glaze our schools and community buildings - not nearly enough but a start.  I'm also hoping that we will influence the DfT's work on air quality - which will be the crux issue as to whether Runway 3 can go ahead.Our next big fight will be on runway alternation - look out for the DfT public consultation next year which could propose the end of this vestige of peace we get either before or after 3pm.However, a Council campaign is more effective when actively supported by the community.  We are also working with HACAN Clearskies - who now have a Hounslow branch - if you aren't already a member do join.  And I spoke (as did Ann Keen) at the Night Flights Rally held last Monday in Westminster.Hoping that's a start in response to your remark!Cllr Ruth Cadbury

Ruth Cadbury ● 7153d71 Comments

The recent report in the Brentford and Chiswick Times.A victory for Ann Keen.  5800 night flights per annum to continue!  Not statistics in the misleading article...in my view.

Jim Lawes ● 6908d

Hurrah for the Lords !I was pleased that they continue to play ping-pong in throwing out the idea of the total noise quota in the regime from 2012.Browsing through Hansard from a couple of days ago, I liked Jenny Tonges offer :I should like to repeat the invitation that I have issued to every Minister of transport over the past 10 years: please come and spend a night at my house or at one of my neighbours' houses. They will not be interfered with. I will not even talk to or harangue them, because the noise of the aircraft will keep them awake. I even promise to bring them a cup of tea and a digestive biscuit in the morning to alleviate their tiredness and angst as a result of not being able to sleep properly.I was also a bit surprised at the challenge :<<< Lord Clinton-Davis:I challenge the noble Earl to give us some evidence that the British Airports Authority ignores complaints that are made. Every single complaint made by people around the airport is taken notice of and acted on. That is the purpose of the committees to which my noble friend referred. >>>I thought I remembered hearing somewhere that the complaints line now disregarded or downgraded complaints made by by serial complainers. And the response in terms of standard letters was a lot less impressive than hitherto.

Tim Henderson ● 6912d

Thanks for the report Andrew...and giving up you valuable time with your other Councillor colleagues.Brentfordians can't complain that they don't know what is going on.

Jim Lawes ● 6930d

Ruth Cadbury, Barbara Reid and I were all three at the protest rally representing Hounslow.  Several hundred people turned out (good considering the football) and there were a number of very good speeches delivered at the end of march rally.Friends of the Earth and several west London boroughs, including Hounslow, had posters mounted on trucks that followed the marchers.Barbara said that whatever else changes in Hounslow, the new council remained committed to continuing to back the anti-Heathrow expansion campaign.I forgot to take a hat and now have the sunburn to show for it!Best regards, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6931d

There is a major Rally tomorrow,Saturday,Haven't seen an advert.....nor am I able to go along.So: I'm just recording the matter...for those interested.

Jim Lawes ● 6932d

And it was noisy too!! and the sound lasted 30 seconds.-----------------------------------------------------4.50am. Now another one has flown over..WHY. yes it was a bit quieter. There are no other sounds..just my keyboard!-----------------------------------------------------4.58am  Oh dear..no aircraft for 8 minutes. Something wrong?-----------------------------------------------------5.03am  I'm getting really worried now. There's been no noise for 13 minutes!! I can't concentrate on my work!-----------------------------------------------------5.05am  It's unbearable. No aircraft, No noise, Are they ok?-----------------------------------------------------5.07am  Shall I phone Heathrow?-----------------------------------------------------5.10am  Hooray..good news..a real noisy whopper has just gone over.I feel so much happier now. I'll be able to get to sleep knowing that all is fine!!! ;0(

Jim Lawes ● 6946d

I am woken every morning as soon as the planes start even with the expensive double glazing that cost £5,500 for my 2 bed flat on Brentford Dock. The only answer is to wear wax ear plugs if you really need a lie in. Do other residents notice the black greasy film on their kitchen floors and work tops if they leave their windows open? It can only be pollution from the planes as I there are no cars near my place.

Marion Watkinson ● 6953d

Thanks for reminding me about HACC and I worked my way through the last minutes on the website.I did like the scrutiny that UA918 got and hope that it has borne fruit (no doubt Jim Lawes would like it too!)4. Cllr. Maddan referred to Table 5 and pointed out that flight UA918 was not very good at scheduling its flights as half of its early morning arrivals seemed to be up to one hour earlier than scheduled. 5. Iain Hope had observed that during a ten­week period, flight UA 918 had arrived up to one hour ahead of schedule on nineteen separate occasions. Whilst accepting the explanation of jet streams and the wind direction, this operation was totally out of line with the other airlines, that had been caught on the early side. This indicated a scheduling problem in terms of the departure of UA 918. Nita Easey said she would take this action away to investigate.  I do sometimes wonder whether the reports to HACC should be in the public domain and might it be worthwhile to put in a request unde r the "Freedom of access to environmental information" ?Reading the minutes I was interested to see that the Department for Transport representative was confident that the Technical Report on Air Pollution for the "Project for the Sustainable Development of Heathrow" would be published on track in Spring 2006. Whereas shortly afterwards it was announced that it would have its publication deferred. I am afraid that I suspect political spin is being burnished up to accompany its eventual release. I have asked my MP if she can find out what "shortly" means as in "the Minister said he will be publishing it shortly " (on March 17th 2006)Tim

Tim Henderson ● 6956d

Richard is amazed a the no of flights now at Heathrow - yet I've become so innured(?) that that figure is no shock for me.  It's not far off the 480,000 cap that was the condition set for T5 to open.  It will probably be breached before then (mid 2008 if I remember right) .Apart from BAA and Hounslow's own hotline, one source is the website of the Heathrow Airport Consultatlive Committee, to which I and a few other Councillors attend - www.lhr-acc.org - and where regular updates on flight numbers, noise complaints, as well as current issues are reported.  And of course there is HACAN's own website.I will try and keep abreast of develoments, but of course I won't know until Tuesday night's Council AGM if I will still be the Council's lead on Aviation issues.Ruth

Ruth Cadbury ● 6956d

How many are planes are full?

Sarah Felstead ● 6956d

Was amazed to read that Heathrow had just over 472,021 aircraft movements last year. That 1293 movements a day. According to something I was reading in Hansard the max number of movements per hour is meant to be 61. How many come in before 6.00am so that figure can be reached?

Neil Chippendale ● 6956d

Thank you Ruth,Tim and as always Richard for your responses.Let it be said that we are just trying to understand what goes on!..and maybe other readers of this Forum are endeavouring to learn too. (William are you in on this one?)Although it is a long time since I took my GCE in "O" level English Language, it is incredulous that discussion in the Houses of Parliament should include Tim's extract:"""The work is divided into two phases. Phase 1 has now been completed and has developed a stated preference methodology by carrying out a number of pilot surveys—[Hon. Members: “You can stop now.”] I think that hon. Members will bear with me a few more moments, because there are other issues to discuss.Phase 2, which is the main survey and has recently been completed, applies the methodology and is reassessingthe validity of the Leq family of noise indices as a proxy for relative community annoyance.""What crazy lingo..who will understand that update and then have sufficient understanding of it to vote..on matters important to  the residents of Hounslow!!!Regarding the 11.30pm till 6am noise levels and the effect on people sleeping....have they no regard for some of us who  choose sometimes to work and study quietly during those night hours. We are affected too.  Next they'll be saying that most people don't hear aircraft noise during their sleep!!..and so we carry on regardless.Anyway..Ruth additional information needs to be digested slowly..and once we fully understand all the detail and implications..we can competantly join the Heathrow Debate with increased enthusiasm.  I suspect that so many people just haven't the foggiest idea about the detail. As Ruth said most people rely on newspapers for their information. That has been half my battle whilst I have been on these Forums..to find out what is going on.Thankfully Mrs Keen's website has been updated a bit. but others are sadly lacking in clearly explaining what the score is. Thanks Ruth for the additional information.

Jim Lawes ● 6956d

I was interested that the recent Civil Aviation Bill debate included a mention of the residents noise survey that I was involved in a few years ago (held in the Premier hotel just after it had opened, I think). It was a surreal affair at which  people were played recordings of overflying aircraft and asked if they were typical of what they heard. And then there was a long questionnaire trying to find out whether we thought that one loud aircraft was worse than several quieter ones and then how much would we be prepared to pay not to have them..... Very strange. At least publication seems to be in view according to Hansard :but I wish to return to the issue of sleep disturbance, which concerns many Members. There are differing views among those who suffer from the problem as to whether a single loud noise or an accumulation of smaller noise events causes more disturbance. It is clear that disturbance is different from annoyance and from sleep deprivation, which relates to lengthy periods without sleep. It is also acknowledged that a small minority of people are much more sensitive to noise and sleep disturbance from aircraft noise than others. That is the important point.The results of the further study that reported in 2000 did not contradict the essential findings of the 1992 field study, and that is the point that I wish to make about the time lag between the two studies. In contrast, a social survey conducted in parallel reported that a substantial percentage of those interviewed in higher noise areas reported being highly disturbed by aircraft at night.After those studies the Government took the advice of independent experts and concluded that a new full-scale objective sleep study would be unlikely to add significantly to our understanding of the effects of airport noise on sleep disturbance. The Government then commissioned a major new study to concentrate on subjective responses to annoyance from aircraft noise and examined, in a hypothetical way, the willingness to pay, in respect of the nuisance from aircraft noise. It is acknowledged that our current understanding of the annoyance caused by aircraft is primarily based on research carried out in the 1980s.John McDonnell: Can my hon. Friend just clarify the geographical basis of the recent study, the samples that were taken, the interviews that took place and the areas that were designated as the most affected?Derek Twigg: I have not got that information to hand, but I will write to my hon. Friend following the debate.The study of how people would price nuisance from aircraft noise is designed to improve our understanding of the value that people give to relief from noise. We expect that the study, which has been guided by the steering group of a wide range of interests including environmental organisations who are represented, to be completed by about the middle of the year. The work is divided into two phases. Phase 1 has now been completed and has developed a stated preference methodology by carrying out a number of pilot surveys—[Hon. Members: “You can stop now.”] I think that hon. Members will bear with me a few more moments, because there are other issues to discuss. Phase 2, which is the main survey and has recently been completed, applies the methodology and is reassessing the validity of the Leq family of noise indices as a proxy for relative community annoyance. I know that the hon. Member for Windsor has a particular interest in that aspect of aircraft noise. Tim

Tim Henderson ● 6956d

As you have all probably gathered by now the system that regulates night flights is very complicated.  In actual fact it is even more complicated than is portrayed in the media as there are different definitions for night depending on the time, so for example, the period  11:30 p.m. to 6 a.m. is known as core night (the night period where the most restrictions apply).  There are also what is known as shoulder periods between the hours of 11 to 11:30 p.m. and 6 to 7 a.m. and subtle differences in the rules apply in these periods.  6am - 7am is the busiest time of the day at Heathrow, and alternation is often suspended in order to get the maximum number of flights in.At the moment the system (11.30 - 6am) works by setting a noise budget (or Quota Count) AND a movement limit.  The government have always wanted to rely wholly on a noise budget and scrap the movement limits.  The announcement last week has effectively paved the way for this to happen, hence the piece in the Brentford Chiswick and Isleworth Times is correct in saying that it leaves the door open to increase night flights a few years down the line, i.e. after 2012.  This takes us right back to the argument that the actual numbers of aircraft flying over are very important never mind the amount of noise they emit.  By the way the 16 flights per night is an average as stated elsewhere in this thread.  In actual fact many more aircraft could come in on any one night as long as the overall seasonal quota limit  is not breached.Regarding the point about certain Boeing 747s, and their noise budget (QC).  The CAA have identified that certain 747 are not operating within their certified limits.  What this means in practice is that when one of these planes arrives at night 2 points are removed from the noise budget where in actual fact nearly 8 points should be removed! Another reason why the movement limits should be retained.And finally a point on the future development of Heathrow's other terminals.  BAA did announce that they intend to demolish the existing Queens building and the bulk of terminal two at the point where they can move passengers into other facilities without these buildings, i.e. shortly after terminal five opens.  This development allegedly will not increase capacity at the airport (I leave others to speculate on the truth behind this assertion) and will be known as Heathrow East.  This proposal was not within Heathrow's draft interim master plan which was issued only a few months before

Ruth Cadbury ● 6956d

"I've half read somewhere that Aircraft that had been classified as "quiet" are in fact "noisy" and are thus falling foul of noise limits."Yes, I've half read something about that too.  Something about LB Wandsworth discovering that a Boeing 747-400 with Rolls-Royce engines is classified as QC2 but is actually QC4.  I haven't read the details yet.  Try www.wandsworth.gov.uk and search for 747-400. I'll be back here on Wednesday.

Richard Jennings ● 6957d

Splendid and helpful answers ..as always..Richard..and thanks for the explanations.My next batch of questions may be to do with "Noise Levels allowed" before 6am...and how those are measures and where.I've half read somewhere that Aircraft that had been classified as "quiet" are in fact "noisy" and are thus falling foul of noise limits. I'll check some facts first..but others may wish to ask questions too...in endeavouring to find out what's going on.

Jim Lawes ● 6957d

"Is there an expansion creep going on ... ?"Heathrow has been expanding ever since 1946!  There is always building going on there, as the airport tries to keep up with the ever-growing demands on its facilities.  There is a fair amount of freedom given to airport operators under current planning law to carry out developments such as new taxiways, piers and other operational structures after merely "consulting" the local planning authority.  If you do a planning search at www.hillingdon.gov.uk for "Heathrow Airport", you'll see that such developments are indeed listed there.If you look at the map of Heathrow athttp://www.heathrowairport.com/assets/B2CPortal/Wrapped%20Static%20Files/H/LHRmasterplanDrawing1.pdfyou can see how extensive the piers and aircraft parking areas (in pink) are compared with the terminal buildings themselves (in red).BAA's press release announcing the arrival at noon on 18 May of the first A380 to land at Heathrow mentioned the new developments at T3:  "The A380 will arrive on Heathrow’s Southern Runway and will park at Terminal 3, Pier 6 - a new purpose built £100 million facility that is a 280 metre long, three-storey high pier which can accommodate up to four A380s at a time."The plan for T5 was always to have a main building (T5A) connected by tunnels with two satellite buildings around which the aircraft will park.  This is instead of having long piers like T1,2,3. One satellite (T5B) is being built now (opening 2008), and the second one (T5C) will be ready by 2011. I believe the design could accommodate a third satellite, but that's not part of the current project.  T5B and T5C are an integral part of the overall T5 design, not an extension.I have no knowledge of a proposal for a "T6" in the central area.  The only T6 that I have heard about was floated by BAA as a requirement to make efficient use of a third runway, and would be placed next to that runway, north of the A4.  T1 certainly has a pier that runs west over the end of the road tunnel, and it's been in place for some time.  It's clearly visible on Google Earth.

Richard Jennings ● 6958d

Anyone been a visitor to Heathrow recently and had a chance to observe the expansion and changes?  I'd love to hear verification of the detail I hear about.The imminent arrival of the giant A380 has been planned for some time. Apparently areas in Terminal 3 have been demolished in recent months and a larger structure built to give greater capacity to new passenger waiting areas and aircraft stands in that T3.  Although the A380 is not much longer than existing aircraft..it is much taller,wider, and has greater body volume. Terminal 5 should be ready in some 2 years and I have been reminded that several additional  "extension arms"/ mini terminals/ T5a and T5b and T5c will follow on and are currently being built. Can you confirm that this correct?Is T5 and it's add-ons far greater in size and passenger capacity than was initially announced?Can you confirm this too? Apparently another new terminal (T6) was to be built adjoining T1 ...in the Central area...adjacent to the Tunnel. I understand permission was refused. But T1 has now been expanded to cover that area that was to be T6!  Is this so? Is there an expansion creep going on.... that in time will further inconvenience the lives of those who live under the flightpaths? Especially before 6am each morning.It has been suggested that one day in the future BA will be able to say that T5 is underused,it can cope with many more flights, and let's increase the business!

Jim Lawes ● 6958d

""But we have a reprieve at Heathrow, at least until 2012.  Or at least, that's what the government says today""There is a news item on the front page of the Putney Forum...which has an index/gateway to further details.The Brentford and Chiswick Times this week refers to "Night Flights Victory" and "MP salutes tireless campaigners after news of the Governement freeze" Mrs Keen said, the newspaper quotes,"This is a victory for the people who took the trouble to write to me"I'll await to see further Forum comments..from others too...as I'm still finding difficulty digesting the finer detail.

Jim Lawes ● 6960d

"Despite the six-year reprieve, MPs voted in favour of a plan to scrap the existing cap on night flights and replace it with a noise quota system."I've just been reading the Hansard report on that debate, and have also looked at the Civil Aviation Bill itself.  As I understand it, the current legislation dating from 1982 requires the government to set a movements limit as well as enabling other restrictions such as noise quotas.  The new Civil Aviation Bill removes the need to set a movements limit.  It doesn't, however, prevent a movements limit being imposed.The Minister, Derek Twigg, explained it thus: The Secretary of State would not be prevented from continuing to set movement limits, but could consider alternatives — for instance, if they provided a more effective incentive to use quieter aircraft. Our intention is not to prevent future Governments from setting stringent controls on night flying at the airports, or from setting movement limits as part of those controls; it is simply to ensure that they have the power to set restrictions in the most effective way possible, whatever the future circumstances may be.A number of MPs pointed out that the number of flights is an important factor to residents, and that the way that the noise is calculated is flawed.  Justine Greening (Conservative, Putney) was very good on these points.  Ann Keen just said thank you for the 6-year reprieve.Since the Minister announced that the movements limit will continue to be applied at the current level at Heathrow, and declined to say anything about Gatwick and Stansted, I suspect that he may be about to use the new Act to remove movements limits at Gatwick and Stansted.  But we have a reprieve at Heathrow, at least until 2012.  Or at least, that's what the government says today.

Richard Jennings ● 6960d

Hello Richard:The announcement of the new 6 year (2006-2012)agreement on the Hounslow Civic Centre website suggests that the numbers quota (average of 16 per morning before 6am) is to be substituted by a noise quota."""Despite the six-year reprieve, MPs voted in favour of a plan to scrap the existing cap on night flights and replace it with a noise quota system. The proposal, one of several in the Civil Aviation Bill, had been previously been rejected by the House of Lords following a campaign by Hounslow Council and other parties.The Government acknowledged the problem of noise from night-time aircraft operations in its 2003 Aviation White Paper and promised to “bear down on night noise accordingly”. It claimed its proposed noise quota scheme would help to combat the problem despite experts warning that it could lead to a four-fold increase in night flights from Heathrow.“It is simply not possible to tackle night noise by allowing more planes to fly at night, and the Government is flying in the face of common sense on this issue,” said Mr Gibson.  “The noise quota system will allow airports to significantly increase night flights by favouring less noisy aircraft. As a result, we could see a four-fold increase in night flights as aircraft technology improves."""This is the kind of information that I would like to see clarified in plain English. There appears to be conflicting explanations on the various websites.  I wonder if I'm misunderstanding something?

Jim Lawes ● 6960d

"are you suggesting that more than 5800 may have been arriving...because some flights were deemed quieter??"No. There is a movements quota and a noise quota, and both are applied to every landing or take-off between 23:30 and 06:00.  Both quotas are set for a season.  The limit of 5800 annual movements is made up of 2550 flights in winter (GMT period) and 3250 in summer (BST period).In practice there is some flexibility in the way the regulations are applied which involve 5% or 10% of a season's quota being carried forward or "borrowed" between seasons. So far, the government have said that movement quotas will remain unaltered for the 2006-2012 night flights regime.  They are due to announce the noise quotas before the end of this month.In what way do you think we are being hoodwinked?  What more information do you want "in plain and clear English"?Is Isleworth worse affected by Heathrow than Brentford?  On the whole, yes.  The flight path to the southern runway passes directly over Redlees Park, and that for the northern runway passes over Busch Corner.  See my map of the flight paths (including the one for the 3rd runway if it is ever built) at http://rj2.fotopic.net/p26769965.html (Click on the map for a full-size image.)

Richard Jennings ● 6960d

(1: The concession was..not to increase the number of flights..but is that Noise Level matter a loophole?(2: Was there a campaign to REDUCE night flights?)ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooFrom Mrs Keen's webiste.  "News"""HOUNSLOW MPS WELCOME NIGHT FLIGHT CONCESSIONAnn Keen MP, Member of Parliament for Brentford & Isleworth, and Alan Keen MP, Member of Parliament for Feltham & Heston, welcomed the move by Aviation Minister, Derek Twigg MP, to keep night flight movements at Heathrow at current levels up until 2012.The Aviation Minister also confirmed that there will be no increase in aircraft movements at Heathrow at night beyond 2012 without prior consultation.During the debate on the Civil Aviation Bill at the House of Commons, the Aviation Minister acknowledged the strong lobbying by Ann & Alan Keen which has led to the announcement of the concession.The Bill was originally drafted to empower the Secretary of State to allow increased night flight movements and government refused to accept amendments at the second reading. Councillor Ruth Cadbury lobbied heavily in the Lords and the Upper House passed a helpful amendment but it was clear that the government would use its majority to delete it when it returned to the Commons. The concession relating to night flights at Heathrow by the minister has been welcomed by Hounslow Council.Ann & Alan Keen said,"It was generally expected that the government would reject the amendment made in the House of Lords but we met with the Secretary of State two weeks ago and continued discussions right up to the commencement of the debate yesterday with ministers. We made a very strong case and we are delighted that the Government listened to the representations we made.We would like to thank Councillor Ruth Cadbury for the major contribution she has made towards achieving this. We will continue to campaign against, what has been until now, support by all governments for relentless expansion at Heathrow. Government has committed not to raise the number of aircraft movements at night from 2006 to 2012 and has promised a full public consultation to look at the position after that.We will continue to campaign on behalf of our constituents on air transport issues at Heathrow. Obviously, there are more problems to address but we feel that this success is a significant breakthrough which will help set a precedent. It shows what can be achieved when we work together with others. In addition to Cllr Ruth Cadbury, we would also like thank John Stewart at HACAN for the continuing work that he contributes week after week."

Jim Lawes ● 6961d

The A380 may well be bigger, better and quieter:and we hope it's successful....But why do any fights really need to arrive at Heathrow before 5am or 6am...and disturb the peaceful sleep of thousands of residents?Noise measurement is a subject worthy of study too. Anyone an expert?  We're talking about the noise created by aircraft when they are in landing mode.  Sometimes the noise could be heard as a short sharp whine... ruffling the hair in ones ears.....sometimes it's a longer rumble...sometimes it's a meandering sound.  How is the measurement rated and scored? By loudness? By how penetrating the earlobbness? How irritating to the brain-ness? Is it Chopin-like..or Rolling Stones like?It should be very easy for someone to clearly explain what the score is..and what is really going. We should be concerned about planned spin.Those living in Brentford,Isleworth and in Hounslow should awake!!

Jim Lawes ● 6961d

http://www.hacan.org.uk/Richard: The current 5/6 year agreement..which seems mischiefly to have been extended for a further year till October 2006..related to 5800 arrivals per annum.. prior to 6am...as you will have known.This 5800 averaged out at 16 per day.  No doubt some days there were more and some days less. Whilst there were NOISE LEVEL RESTRICTIONS in place..are you suggesting that more than 5800 may have been arriving...because some flights were deemed quieter??  I would be surprised..and if so I must not have fully understood all the Reports I have read on the subject.This whole thread is worth reading. We are all being hookwinked I believe.  There is a Hounslow Branch of HACAN Clearskies as Ruth indicated.  We need to dig out more clarity from both Mr and Mrs Keen..in plain and clear English... and from the new Council. Better still would be more information on this Forum.Is Isleworth worse affected by Heathrow than Brentford?There was a suggestion that the average of 16 (5800 pa)was to be increased to 18 from October 06..and that proposal seems to have been defeated.  But

Jim Lawes ● 6961d

"The concern would be that a numerical limit rather than a noise limit would mean that the long haul operators from the Far East will introduce the A380 on their routes so the best solution would have been a combination of noise and number limits."A comnination of noise and number limits is precisely what has been in place for a number of years, and will now be continued for the next 6 years.  Incidentally, the first landing of an A380 at Heathrow is planned to take place at midday on Thursday 18 May, using the southern runway according to BAA.  I'll post more details nearer the date when the wind direction can be forecast with confidence.

Richard Jennings ● 6961d

Many of their constituents would be happy to take advantage of their bolt hole in order to get some sleep.

Sarah Felstead ● 6961d

I dont think I am obsessing about Covent Garden,just raising the point that Ann Keen`s hypocrisy may possibly be due to her spending so much time out of her constituency and her refusal to hold regular non-appointment surgaries to hear real concerns.To be honest Dan,I intend to spend a lot of time now reading up on the whole night flights issue as I could not possibly offer a personal solution due to my limited knowledge at present.

Paul Fisher ● 6961d

If you would stop obsessing about Covent Garden for second you might be able to see that Ann Keen's flip flop on this issue is really what you should be focusing on. What is your strategy to thwart the further expansion of night flights at Heathrow?

Dan Evans ● 6961d

I am still constantly confused about which way Ann Keen stands on this issue as one minute she joins protests and then votes for the Government regardless.Well done again for Cllr Cadbury for her tireless work in bringing this serious issue to light but how frustrating it must be for her knowing that the local MP is not on side.Perhaps living at our expense in Covent Garden clouds her views these days not experiencing what we have to endure?

Paul Fisher ● 6961d

Welcome back Jim and how good it is to see substantive issues under discussion on this forum.This concession isn't really a concession but just the knock back of plans to introduce more night flights. It is noteworthy that Ann Keen is hailing the rejection of an agreement she herself supported in the Commons.The concern would be that a numerical limit rather than a noise limit would mean that the long haul operators from the Far East will introduce the A380 on their routes so the best solution would have been a combination of noise and number limits.

Dan Evans ● 6961d

I presume the increased aircraft movements will be these so called super jets which are said to have increased capacity but make less noise.

Neil Chippendale ● 6961d

No comments seem to have raised by posters on local forumsabout the recent 6 year agreement regarding night flights which has been announced on the Civic Centre website frontpage. Mrs Keen has hailed the agreement. Clarification seems needed.We have posted a lot of information on this Forum in the past two years...on various threads about the noise in the early mornings when the average of 16 aircraft arrive at Heathrow before 6am.  The earliest thunder by from 4.30am onwards....well they certainly used to.Whilst the Civic Centre website hails the new agreement...someone needs to clarity the crafty change from that 16 flights on average...to a noise quota system whereby say 30 aircraft making less noise would be allowed!Is that so?""The noise quota system will allow airports to significantly increase night flights by favouring less noisy aircraft. As a result, we could see a four-fold increase in night flights as aircraft technology improves.""Little by little.."they" seem to be getting their way.

Jim Lawes ● 6961d

I can't find the article you refer to on The Times website.  I have, however, found this extract from the minutes of the meeting of the Tustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens held on 17 Sep 2005:With regards to the proposed expansion of Heathrow, which had been so much in the news, the Board decided to discuss the matter for the first time. One member made a declaration of interest and left the room. [Probably Andrew Cahn, a director of British Airways] During discussion, trustees totally rejected press allegations of impropriety with regard to Kew’s relationship with BAA and BA. They agreed that the Board would continue to endorse the position on Heathrow expansion taken by Kew’s previous Director. A statement was prepared stating Kew’s preference for no increase in flights over the Gardens, and supportingthe continued practice of runway alternation, which gives some respite to residents and visitors. It was agreed that the Chair would write to Defra making Kew’s position clear.The full statement is at http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/aboutus/trustees/heathrowstatement.html

Richard Jennings ● 7056d

Hello AndrewMr Alan Keen is in fact the Vice-Chairman of the Committee I had in mind ..and his seemingly newly furbished website states the following:"""Alan is currently Vice-Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Aviation Group. The purpose of the Group is: To arrange meetings and briefings on aviation issues with airlines, airports, Civil Aviation Authority, trade unions and other relevant organisations and individuals on airport and aviation issues"""Lives in Brentford?..underneath the 4.30am - 6am early morning flights> and so must be completely au-fait with the REAL score!

Jim Lawes ● 7056d

This is news to me Jim.  I would be genuinely interested to know what this group does and who funds it. My hope is that this perhaps provides Alan with a vehicle to help defend residents' rights to a decent nights sleep?  For the record I think Ruth has worked hard on this front, but is desparately undermined my an MP that is seemingly compromised by her closeness to the government.  Anyone that doesn't understand the position that I and other opposition voices have taken on the subject recently are welcome to put specific questions to me on this forum or by email, to which I will always try and give a clear and straight forward response.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 7056d

If you type "Kew Gardens BAA"  or "BAA Kew Gardens" into Google Search you will find information about the BBA management's involvement with Kew..and examples of sponsorship.It seems that a Press Release by HACON last August? triggered reports of the involvement of BAA..and certain newspapers perhaps dug a little deeper into related matters.Mr Alan Keen is also a Chairman of The House of Commons cross-party Committee on Heathrow ..I believe.. and our ignorance of some of these matters could be put down to non-clarification on our MP's websites..or in Information Reports from the Civic Centre. Maybe I'm wrong.

Jim Lawes ● 7057d

Less than the Village News.

Phil Andrews ● 7057d

Hello there...PhilSo....how many differnt readers do you think this Forum has over say a 7 day period.  30? out of an adult population of say 40,000 in Isleworth and Brentford.

Jim Lawes ● 7057d

""recent disclosures that the Kew Gardens Authorities are given financial sweeteners to stay quiet"That's news to me. What's your source?""Hello Richard.It was most likely The Times newspaper..or the Sunday Times.Apparently several top officials at BBA are on one of the senior Committees at Kew Gardens..which as as you know is a horticultural research establishment.I believe contributions are made to KG funds..but in particular scientists doing some research in some distant part of the world ..are provided with free airline tickets...according to the article.In addition ..the newspaper report said...that VIP's were encouraged to visit Kew Gardens at times when the aircraft weren't flying overhead every 75 seconds!

Jim Lawes ● 7057d

"the present agreement allows for 5800 flights EACH YEAR to arrive before 6am...but what is particularly revealing is the clause which allows extra flights to arrive if the noise levels fall into particular categories."I think you are mistaken, Jim.  As I understand it, the limit on the number of night flights and the limit on the total Quota Count (effectively the cumulative noise impact) must both be adhered to.  So, for example, in the current winter period of about 5 months, the number of night flights is limited to 2550, but they must also adhere to the maximum noise quota (QC) limit of 4140.  If all 2550 night flights were Boeing 747-400s, which has are rated QC2 for landing, the total QC would be 2 x 2550 = 5100, which would breach the 4140 limit.  So the airlines are forced to use quieter aircraft such as the Boeing 777 or Airbus A340 in order to keep inside the noise quota limit."recent disclosures that the Kew Gardens Authorities are given financial sweeteners to stay quiet"That's news to me. What's your source?

Richard Jennings ● 7057d

"Sad that this will only be read by a dozen or so people and maybe a couple of our local Councillors."Wanna bet?

Phil Andrews ● 7057d

A quick look at Mrs Keen's website reveals a Press Release dated Jan 2004 in which our MP's support the Government view that there should be NO REDUCTION in those night flights.So Mrs Keen supports the continuation of all those noisy aircraft that pass over Chiswick, Brentford, Isleworth and Hounslow between 4.30am and 6am...all 16 or so of them.Sad that this will only be read by a dozen or so people and maybe a couple of our local Councillors.  As I've said before ..it's like playing table tennis against a blanket!FROM MRS KEEN'S WEBSITE:ANN AND ALAN KEEN MP CELEBRATE NO CHANGE OF POLICY ON NIGHT FLYING Ann and Alan Keen are celebrating with constituents because there is to be no change policy on night flying at Heathrow.The Department of Transport has revealed that there will be no changes to current restrictions on night flying at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted Airports until at least 30 October 2005.Ann and Alan Keen support the Government’s belief that an immediate cut in the noise quotas at airports is not appropriate. Instead the Government now plans to do further investigation into the classification of aircraft for night flying and examine the results of a separate review about the noise made when aircraft lift off. The Government’s policy is to guarantee the long term development of aviation.Both MPs took part in the consultation process which decided that current night flying restrictions should remain the same. Other groups taking part were airport consultative committees, airline and aviation bodies, local authority and parish councils, environmental groups and individuals from all of the airports involved. Out of 104 consulted 63 believed that restrictions should remain as they are. Although the current measures only last until the end of the summer period 2005 Ann and Alan are celebrating.Night flying applies to the period between 23.30 and 06.00 and the restrictions involved apply to limits on the amount and type of aircraft able to fly at this time.Some groups campaigned for a ban of night flying or a reduction in night flights. Even though there has been no reduction in night flying the current proposal means that there will be no increase.

Jim Lawes ● 7057d

Thank you Richard to that DIRECT LINK  to the Night Flights section on the BAA? page.I've pasted some of it below.We are aware that the present agreement allows for 5800 flights EACH YEAR to arrive before 6am...but what is particularly revealing is the clause which allows extra flights to arrive if the noise levels fall into particular categories. Now, I haven't been aware of that loophole before.The (six year?) agreement between the Airlines(?) and the Government to allow that 5800 to land so early expire last October..and was extended for a further 12 months. Apparently the Government had dragged its feet in getting around to a new six year agreement ..so the old one was extended for 12 months...probably to await the arrival of quieter aircraft later this year.One again I believe we have here another subject clouded with INFORMATION FOG..and recent disclosures that the Kew Gardens Authorities are given financial sweeterers to stay quiet does nothing to make one think otherwise.FROM THAT HEATHROW WEBSITE..REGARDING NIGHT FLIGHTS."""The decision to allow night flights, therefore, is a policy matter for the Government.The most recent restrictions were introduced in October 1999 and consist of three main elements as follows:    *      A maximum number of flights during each season (3,250 in summer and 2,550 in winter) between 23:30 and 06:00    *      A supplementary quota system to encourage the use of quieter aircraft. Aircraft types are given a Quota Count (QC) value, according to how much noise they make on landing and take-off, of QC 0.5, QC1, QC2, QC4, QC8 or QC16, the noisiest category being QC16. Aircraft movements score these QC values against a maximum allowable Quota for each season (5,610 for summer and 4,140 for winter) between 23:30pm and 06:00, 'the night quota period'.    *      Aircraft of QC16 and QC 8 cannot be scheduled to operate between 23:00 and 07:00.Normally there are no scheduled departures between 23:30 and 06:30. There is only one scheduled arrival after 23:30 which is a mail flight, until the early morning arrivals which make up most of the night flights. The first is scheduled at around 04:55 but they can arrive earlier. Occasionally, aircraft operate after 23:30 because they have been delayed, e.g. due to bad weather, or they are small, quieter aircraft which are therefore exempt from the restrictions e.g. medical flights."""  END.Its not even clear from the about paragraghs whether the 5800 is correct. As I say INFORMATION FOG. 

Jim Lawes ● 7057d

"I am still unsure though what flights are allowed to land before 6am if any"There are complex rules which limit the total numbers and noise impact of night flights over a whole season (winter or summer), applicable from 23:30 to 06:00.  Within these rules, the airlines can choose what times they land, subject to agreement with BAA.  In practice there are roughly 16 flights per night, mostly scheduled to arrive between 05:00 and 06:00.There is more detail on this on BAA's site.  Go to www.baa.com/heathrow, then click on "About BAA Heathrow", then on "Community Matters", then on "Aircraft Noise", then on "Night Flights".This direct link may work.

Richard Jennings ● 7059d

Thanks for the posting Jim,interesting stuff indeed.I am still unsure though what flights are allowed to land before 6am if any,but on Monday my flight from Bangkok was scheduled to land here at 5.35am and actually landed at 5.20am!

Paul Fisher ● 7059d

The Civic Centre website published this update on the 1st Feb 2006 about Cllr Ruth Cadbury's presentation to a Westminster Parliamentary Committee.Let's hope that the members of that Committee pop along to Brentford, Isleworth and Hounslow at 4.30am to 6am in the early morning ..when the aircraft launch their 11 hour dawn chorus!1 February 2006Hounslow Council has told MPs that the aviation industry should be made to meet the cost of protecting communities that live under their flight paths from aircraft noise and pollution. The call came as the Council’s lead member for aviation issues, Cllr Ruth Cadbury, gave evidence at the Transport Select Committee. She said:“For people living in Hounslow, the noise disturbance from Heathrow is now almost continuous and air pollution exceeds European standards. What our residents need is for airports and airlines to take responsibility for the cost of protecting communities like ours. This could be achieved simply by introducing a ‘polluter pays’ principle with funds for mitigation collected through a levy and administered through the CAA.”In 2003, the Transport Select Committee highlighted the need for the Government and the industry to be committed to minimising ‘real’ environmental impacts. The committee also recommended that the funds from environmental fines should be used to benefit affected communities.Cllr Cadbury told the Select Committee that there has been little in the way of progress on these matters and the voluntary mitigation schemes that are currently in place are inadequate.According to the Council, many homes in Hounslow are lacking adequate insulation and ventilation and the cost of upgrading the borough’s school buildings to protect children from the negative impact of aircraft noise is around £100m. The imminent increase in night flights that appears to fly in the face of Government promises to “bear down” on night noise is also a major concern.  The Council acknowledges the economic contribution that Heathrow makes to the local economy, but believes the airport has reached the limits of its sustainable development. Its primary concern is to secure adequate mitigation for those who already affected by the airport as well as those who may be affected by any further developments.As part of the Council’s ongoing campaign to ‘give Hounslow what Hounslow needs’, Cllr Cadbury invited the Committee to visit the borough and experience at first hand the problems faced by Hounslow residents on a daily basis.END

Jim Lawes ● 7059d

This is an issue that Ann Keen MP has to at last declare if she is going to throw her efforts behind her constituents or continute to further her personal career with the Government by voting for them every time.What a shame for the likes of Cllr Cadbury and others who keep this major issue in the public light and yet recieve no support from the local MP.The time for sitting on the fence by Mr and Mrs Keen simply has to stop now and they should get off their arse`s and start to earn some the outragous salary and expenses they claim from us and nail their colours to the mast.

Paul Fisher ● 7113d

Here is an url that maybe of use to you for  Melbourne Airport traffic  http://www.melair.com.au/ The green trams still run but are free as a tourist attraction on a circle around city proper.Puffing Billy still a huge attraction for visitors.

Victor Mullins ● 7113d

Evening to you Victor. Thanks for your message.I recall that you are in Melbourne..how clever this technology..you are 10,000 miles away!Is it correct that at Sydney and Melbourne Airports, flights are not allowed to arrive before 6am?After the convoy of flights over Osterley here this morning..from 5am...a particularly noisy one passed by at 6.30am..so I've phoned the complaints line again and lodged a further few polite..honest!..words.If I had just moved to this area/borough it could be argued that the noise was here first..and I will have to lump it!But many residents like myself have lived in the area since before Heathrow was opened in 1946..and we have had to tolerate an increased number of flights etc etc.It may be that some flights are not as noisy as they were 20 years ago..but they still break up the peace and quiet.Perhaps I ought to get more involved!PS: Victor... I have happy memories of two trips to Melbourne..green trams ..and Puffing Billy!

Jim Lawes ● 7113d

I can only imagine how annoying it must be Jim people should be up in arms to protect themselves from the noise pollution

Victor Mullins ● 7113d

The very helpful and readable Brentford,Chiswick and Isleworth Times has an information Page called THE BULLETIN..and there is a section to do with Aircraft Noise.0800 344 844 was the number listed to ring..and I have left a politely worded complaint to that Flight Evaluation Office.  The ansaphone message suggested that lots of abusive calls are received etc etc.The recorded message said that they would write to me...sometime. There is no need for dozens of regular flights at that early hour. Don't you agree.In 50 minutes some 15 or more aircraft have flown over Brentford and Isleworth. (5am - 5.50am)

Jim Lawes ● 7113d

It's a joke!Here we are on a peaceful Sunday morning at 5am. No noise from cars. Nor is there a distant motorway roar. No Piccadilly Line trains running. Just peaceful.Now within 21 minutes some 10 (TEN) aircraft have roared over north Isleworth. Its just a joke!It so happens that I'm working through the night on some admin..as one does!..and so the noise of the aircraft has disturbed my concentration..and make me want to come to this part of my house to hit the keyboard.The so called agreement between the Department for Transportand BAA/Airlines to allow thousands of flights per year between 11pm and 6am..or whatever..should never have been allowed.  The reported extension of the old agreement for one year...so that fresh negotiations start when maybe slightly less noisy aircraft are commonplace...seems to have been trickery.Most of you are sleeping and may not have heard the racket. And to think that there are plans to increase the number of flights. Come on you Brentfordians...get campaigning!(PS there probably only a dozen ever likely to read this ..so its almost pointless!)

Jim Lawes ● 7113d

Rachael Thank you for your report about the visit by Lord Adonis and Mr Alan Keen MPYou said that aircraft were noisier when they were in landing mode (every 75 seconds?)..rather than at take off.. over your School..and that's a surprise to hear.  I suppose that landing aircraft may be just 500 feet above your head..whereas the take off aircraft are much higher...and may be not immediately overhead. Is that so?What a pity he didn't attend when the noise problem can be at its worst!......before 3pm??  Nonetheless he must have been to this area before and seen what the score is!Its crazy that you should be having to use up your "learning budget" to make provision for noise-abatement measures  so let's hope that this Labour Party Minister brings results for you. He's had a mixed Press in the past...so if he fascilitates firm action that will be  goodnews.For those who may not have heard of the gentleman before..I have located an interview with him about inner city academies..about which he is a strong promoter. His style is not quite Boris Johnston!!..now in the Education portfolio for the Conservatives.The interview:http://www.teachers.tv/newsArticleVideo.do?articleId=72456&transmissionProgrammeId=143038The Press report:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19809-1607195,00.htmlAlthough Brentford is also located immediately under one of the flight paths..its unfortunate that this Forum is little used by the 30,000 or so local residents. As a result.. debates and discussion on the Heathrow issue rarely have lift off.Some residents may be aware of HACON,a few people read the Civic Centre website on the matter, some just read the local Press..but circulars from policital parties or others are almost none existent. As a result Cllr Ruth Cadbury may feel that its a struggle to get the locals involved. I'm sure it is.My postings on the Heathrow subject sometimes is just to keep the porridge stirred. From what I've gathered BAA and the Dept for Transport...have got plans that we will not be able to stop...until huge protests are mounted...and better information is more clearly circulated.For example..how many people clearly understand the DoT agreement regarding night flights..and the delay in discussing a new agreement operative from 1st November 2005. I must check out Mr Keen's website!

Jim Lawes ● 7114d

I would like to thank Councillor Ruth Cadbury for bringing the schools minister, Lord Adonis, to the school where I am Deputy Head, today.  It was a wonderful chance to show him the impact of Heathrow Airport on our children and the inadequacy of the current provision / compensation provided by BAA.Although, at the time of his visit, we were only treated to planes taking off over our school every minute, rather than the noisier landing planes we regularly contend with, he was able to see the devastating effect this has on our ability to deliver the national curriculum, particularly in our outside environments.Although BAA have provided some secondary glazing in classrooms, they have not funded air conditioning - consequently in summer months we have to open the windows and teaching and learning suffer dramatically.  Similarly, they refuse to provide double glazing in corridors, the school hall, group teaching rooms, the staffroom etc etc - all of which impact directly on learning.We have had to fund secondary glazing in corridors from our school budget - rather than spending that money on learning resources.  This is not fair on our children or our staff, all of whom deserve better.Today gave us a wonderful opportunity to speak to Alan Keen MP, who enthusiastically supported our cause, as well as Lord Adonis who impressed us all with his attitude and concern.Thank you again Councillor Cadbury for facilitating this meeting.  It is good to know that the lead member for education is fighting our corner so competently and passionately.

Rachel Martin ● 7114d

they are queuing up around the minor runways waiting for an arrivals bay to become available.  Delays of 45 minutes are not unknown!Also..because of Heathrow arrivals conjestion...some aircraft have to taxi over to the new Terminal 5a,5b,and 5c area so that passengers can get off the flight..jump onto a coach..and get taken on to the Main Terminals!! This takes time and causes more delays for arrivals.I hear today that the Department for Transport to pursuing a plan to have a second runway at Stansted.

Jim Lawes ● 7115d

Here's a starting point:http://www.energybulletin.net/primer.php

Paul Davis ● 7115d

Keep up the good work Ruth!However, as I've said countless times before start researching  "Peak Oil", as the increasing evidence of its arrival will ultimately make further plans to increase capacity at LHR redundant. It's largely being ignored by media and government over here but is beginning to make its first serious appearances in Congress in the US.

Paul Davis ● 7115d

http://www.hacan.org.uk/the_campaign/get_involved.phpWho amongst our readers has time to stir the porridge of indifference in Brentford and Isleworth?  We really ought to be turning out to support Cllr Cadbury and others..otherwise the Department for  Transport will think that we are a pushover!

Jim Lawes ● 7115d

Well done on all your efforts Cllr Cadbury but surely our local MP will vote for the Dept of Transports proposal anyway for the end of runway alternation regardless of how many letters etc she recieves?Mrs Keen has made it quite clear that she will always vote with the Government on all matters rather than risk her own career.

Paul Fisher ● 7116d

No we are not wasting our time!  I would really appreciate support from local residents in what we are doing - we can do a lot as a Council, but having residents visible (demos, letters in national papers, phone-ins - whatever is "you") would really complement our work.  Yesterday I chaired a really useful seminar put on by the Environemnt Law Foundation on Aviation, Children and Noise - and one of the points from the pro bono solicitors there, is that we need local people who are prepared to be the plaintiff (is that the right word?) in legal cases.  Our amendments on the Civil Aviation Bill are in the House of Lords tomorrow and Monday, then there'll be the 2nd reading, then back to the commons - when letters to MPs WOULD be more than helpful.  Great piece in the Times (National one) today, on the loss of alternation - so if you saw it, a letter in there would be great. Cllr Ruth Cadbury

Ruth Cadbury ● 7116d

Are we wasting our time and energy trying to fight these developments? 

Jim Lawes ● 7116d

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1910905,00.htmlI wonder what the Hon Member for Isleworth and Brentford feels about this feared developement? Has the news been leaked?At the end of the day..it could be said that we are being manipulated and tricked into having to tolerate increasing disturbance from Heathrow..even if you have lived in the area for 60 years or more..since before Heathrow was first opened for business!In the future,there may be no alternating runway activity...just a continuous convoy of traffic all day and part-night long.How can you build a Terminal Five..larger than was seemingly planned...then at a later date argue that because this enlarged facility is not being used to full capacity..that more flights need to be allowed!!!

Jim Lawes ● 7117d

""If people in public life want the rest of us to lobby effectively on this they should provide us with the ammunition i.e. well constructed arguments against each and every attempt to expand capacity at Heathrow.""Your reply to Cllr Ruth is worthy of further study.The incessant flow of aircraft before 5.30am each morning needs to be questioned..and I haven't seen an explanation of why two extra night flights are needed..and also why Mrs Keen concurs with that.Its a big subject..which needs to be explained to us in simply terms. The Chiswick Forum have been having a beef on the subject too.  Perhaps we should all be participating in that local branch Ruth mentioned.

Jim Lawes ● 7145d

Currently it seems that the Airlines are still operating their Summer Schedules...and with the clocks having been put 1 hour back..it means that we now have to tolerate a convoy of aircraft flying overhead from ..somedays..before 4.30am!!A friend tells me that when he arrived in the Baggage Hall at 4.25am recently..I think it was T4 or T3 ..three flights were already down and another two aircraft were approaching.Some of these (prior to 5am) flights are arriving from Nigeria and Kenya!! (why?) and less than 20% of the passengers are in transit. So 80% are arriving at that early time..even though the noise "that they and their mode of transport creates" is offensive! Sometimes so many overseas flights are arriving before 6am..that the aircraft have to be redirected to T1 !There must be a hidden agenda somewhere.

Jim Lawes ● 7147d

This seems like a lot of effort but what have campaigners actually achieved? Can you give me one example in which BAA and the airlines have actually not got exactly what they wanted?

Andy Jones ● 7147d

SarahI've worked in the trade myself and, basically, if the guy falls and breaks his neck the employer will deny all knowledge of him and protest that he must have been a trespasser.

Phil Andrews ● 7150d

This one looks like it is about to take to roof off...Oh, no, the Polish workers have done that already ... ... ;-)  ;-)  ;-)  ... ... forgive me chaps!(Please take note of the standard safety gear for foreign workers within the Borough)

Sarah Felstead ● 7150d

RichardThanks for that information about the early arrivals at Heathrow and yes I believe it is the Cathay Pacific airliner that rumbles extra noisily across Brentford and Isleworth before 5am.  (One summer, I thought I saw it dumping fuel above Brentford..but the Heathrow manager on duty told me it couldn't have happened!) I'll try to identify the culprit one day.We must thank Cllr Ruth for her endeavours too..on our behalfIt's 2.15am at the moment..and here in Osterley it is dead quiet.  That's why I stay up..I enjoy the peacefulness...its a different world!  Very relaxing. radio, reading, doing admin and chilling out.No roar from the M4 or the Great West Road, no dogs barking,  or noisy pizza motorcycles...just peacefully quiet. Many a night I have stayed up till 5am and later.Then all of a sudden there is this almighty roar..as the first of many aircraft pass overhead nearby ..approaching their place of business at Heathrow. And then within 2 minutes there's another one and then another. There must have been at least 8 noise disturbances before 5am last night. before 5am. The first was 4.30am ish.As we have been fore-warned..the idea of cramming more flights per hour by alternating departures and landings ..at the same time..on the same runway...will just add considerably to the disturbance.  The point is that the many local residents were here first ..before the Airport was developed and expanded. Its not as though I and others have just arrived on the scene.There is a touch of menace about the night flight developments and the expansion at Heathrow. We are not told the truth..there is not full openness. I ought to join the campaign!

Jim Lawes ● 7150d

Jim, there are real-time details of arriving flights on BAA's site, which would enable you to name and shame the noisier flights - if you've got nothing better to do at that time of the morning!Go to www.heathrowairport.com.  There's a box on the left of the screen labelled Live Flight Information.  Just click on Go without entering anything else, and you should see the current arrivals situation.For some reason, the display this morning seems to have stuck on the situation at around midnight last night, so I can see that the first flights this morning were then expected to be 04:34  BA016/QF319  Sydney via Singapore04:42  BA026  Hong Kong04:47  CX252  Hong Kong04:48  BA032  Hong KongEvidently some of them gained a little more time than expected, but they were scheduled to arrive between 04:45 and 05:00.  The "distinctly noisy" one was probably the Cathay Pacific flight CX252.The 03:26 arrival was probably a delayed BA flight from Budapest that was scheduled to land at 21:15 yesterday.

Richard Jennings ● 7151d

Its 4.39amThree aircraft have now flown over in the past 6 minutes..this last one at 4.39 was distinctly noisy.Hang on ..4th one flying over now..4.41am!  They are having us all on!

Jim Lawes ● 7151d

4.33am  This morning's second disturbance.  Its a joke!In Melbourne Australia..nothing before 6am!!Hang on ..one minute later ..04.34am...another one going over Isleworth..en route to Heathrow. Mrs Keen has voted against the amendment to curb the number night flights.Where do we look for the explanation?

Jim Lawes ● 7151d

A record?First roaring aircraft this morning is at 3.26am!!

Jim Lawes ● 7151d

Thank you for that Ruth. It had occured to me that I should have noted you as an exception to the comment. If I hadn't been aware of what you were doing like many people my attention would have been drawn to it by the headline 'Councillor Cadbury in Commons Assault' on this site!The original mark was made out of frustration at the way the discussion of this issue was progressing. Ann Keen voted with the Government against an amendment to the Civil Aviation Bill. She is denounced as a hypocrite across the spectrum of political opposition. The frustating aspect is that neither side think it appropriate to treat the general public as grown ups. Ann Keen offers a non-explanation for her vote rather than seeking to justify it (I presume there is some justification for her decision). The people who are calling her names expect us to take them at their word and don't explain to us why the decision is hypocritical.If people in public life want the rest of us to lobby effectively on this they should provide us with the ammunition i.e. well constructed arguments against each and every attempt to expand capacity at Heathrow.

Dan Evans ● 7152d