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"Brentford Developments in the pipeline" (Front Page)

Whilst most of us are busy concentrating on family and the festive season...and quite rightly too...the list of flats flats flats flats proposed for building and developing in the Area beggers belief.Planners and developers are having a field day. Financiers and the Construction Trades too.Is there really control?The long list of new builds and their illustrations (RIGHT HAND COLUMN FRONT PAGE) suggests Brentford will become more like Milton Keynes every day.And don't expect to be able to walk around the new sites freely.The gated Communities and "Keep Out" signs will prevail.Enjoy the festive season... deal with these matters in the New Year!

Jim Lawes ● 508d30 Comments

I've been living in Brentford for 12 years and because of illhealth have increasingly used Morrisons carpak. Only on one occasion, mentioned by Guy Lambert, when it was being dug up, was I unable to find a parking slot. Even then when I parked nearby and walked through the car park I saw empty places I had overlooked previously. This is despite the fact that although I try to avoid pick up times I still manage clash with them

Simon White ● 497d

I've lived 100M from Morrisons for more than 10 years and I've never seen the car park full. It did get close when they closed 1/4 of it to excavate for archaeology but there were still spaces near the top

Guy Lambert ● 501d

No, not Albany Parade - the much loved Ballymore car park opposite Morrisons and the car park under Ferry Quays.I think it's a bit odd to expect people to walk or cycle to a rehab hospital. My guess is that 99% will use mechanical transport. I don't know what percentage came from Ealing and points north and they will be terribly inconvenienced by the 700M extra distance they have to drive, 3 minutes if you're very generous how long it takes to turning out of Chestnut Ave.

Guy Lambert ● 501d

Morrison's car park is quite often full or very nearly so.

Keith Iddon ● 501d

If one of those tow other car parks is the Albany Parade one that is soon to be lost along with the residential Charlton House car park with no replacement for residents or businesses.  Not ideal for these many who work crappy hours and have to travel for work. And certainly not good for retail or local public facilities.Rather like a certain rehab hospital that expects patients to Walk or Cycle to appointments.

Raymond Havelock ● 502d

Simon - I never suggested Morrisons car park made any sense for Watermans. As I have said several times there are two closer public car parks. I repeat, I have never seen Morrisons Car Park full.I agree with Neil's comment about Watermans Sunday. I was a regular visitor for lunchtime music and dancing, mainly for little ones, when my daughter was a young child.The refurb - 20 years ago? - that removed the dance floor and much of the visibility of the river was a mistake IMO and the music seemed to end at a similar time.

Guy Lambert ● 503d

I recall a time Neil when Hounslow Council gave Watermans a large sum of money one year to help them survive etc.But Waterman's interpreted it as a gesture to be given annually!Nontheless, although it's quieter these days, it's still a pleasant place to visit...and sit by the Thames... looking at the marine wrecks!

Jim Lawes ● 503d

I for one remember Watermans in its heyday, well known musicians playing and free Sunday concerts. The place was packed. Under investment has ruined it, it’s location is an asset and I for one don’t believe the Councils line about moving to the “town centre” will be an improvement.

Neil Chippendale ● 503d

Er, you were the one to mention the new Morrison’s car park, old chap. If it’s not relevant to the new developments up the road then why did you mention it? What’s the ‘nonsense’? You suggested people could park there when visiting the new Waterman’s but now seem to be denying that. Do be consistent.There’s nothing wrong with my objectivity either. Questioning the motives of local politicians who kow tow to minority pressure groups and big developers is entirely acceptable. Private Eye is full of such stories in every edition. The current Morrison’s car park is full at pick up time.And magazines? The motoring organisations you say you are a member of aren’t actively running transport policy in London. The LCC is and for you to say otherwise is untrue. Dismiss as fantasies if you wish, but then that’s classic LCC membership behaviour.

Simon Hayes ● 503d

I go to Morrisons at school out time regularly. Your level of objectivity challenges David Giles saying nobody uses the C9 cycle track in Chiswick.I remember this nonsense about Morrisons car park at the time of the planning application and I paid extra attention because those against the development (which included me as it happens) used various bogus stories about the new supermarket would be smaller and the car park would be overrun.There were good reasons to oppose the development there (not in principle, but the details of the development). All this nonsense actually gets in the way of proper review.As I pointed out, there are 2 sizeable public car parks much nearer than the provision at (and primary for) the new Morrisons.You also put untrue stuff in my mouth but enjoy your little fantasies. Strange that my membership of 3 motoring organisations and subscriptions to 1 monthly and 1 weekly car magazine are outgunned by London Cycling, with its quarterly small format magazine.

Guy Lambert ● 504d

You should go to Morrison’s car park at school pick up time when it’s full of parents collecting kids. Why, you could leaflet them about active travel, pollution and all the other moralistic baloney.You missed my point about the Friends of Waterman’s offer. That’s a sizeable incentive to plenty of people. The alternative car parks you mention are further away and in the case of the new Morrison’s one there will no doubt be restrictions on usage, probably limited to shop customers for a specified time, that will rule it out as a parking spot for the new venue. But then as an LCC disciple you think private car usage is abhorrent....

Simon Hayes ● 504d

The Morrisons car park is down the street at the new Morrisons, and in 10 years living here abot 100M away I have never seen the current Morrisons car park full, never lines of cars waiting It did get a bit tight when they took a chunk out temporarily to dig up and look for archaeology stuff.The route from the obvious car park - the Ballymore public carpark which is directly opposite - through what will I think will be a new retail/dining and maybe even archaeology place that we will be able to walk through towards both St Paul's Church and the new Watermans. It doesn't sound too stressful, compared to the current Watermans car park which is a crime hot spot from drug dealing down to asb/graffiti fly tipping etc.

Guy Lambert ● 504d

I don’t know that ‘passing trade’ is something any arts venue relies on. Isn’t the entire point of these venues to attract people in specifically because they have an exciting programme of events on offer, backed up with a comprehensive online media presence and advertising. Most people have to factor in entertainment such as theatre or cinema trips with the mundanity of everyday life. But maybe Brentford is different.As for the car parking, well the current site has covered and dedicated space for patrons. It even offers annual parking as part of its Friends package, which is quite a bonus for those who live further away or perhaps don’t fancy a late night walk round the darkened streets of the area.

Simon Hayes ● 504d

Theres the rub.If the place used to have queues and the car park full and now it cannot manage either, then something is wrong with the product.If people won't even use the new car park for Morrisons or the rest of the High street just 50m away will they use this car park for the waterman/ Wherever it is and will it be too expensive and too time consuming for passing trade?It certainly appears so at present with local passing trade pretty much wiped out since the tiny bus lane was put in that makes no difference to the buses as three routes out of five pull out of it into the right lane in any case.Watermans is a shadow of it's former self and has been for such a long time there cannot be many who remember it being the hub of the universe.But it's the content not the location and if that's going to remain the same then the next venue and the one after that will be the same.I fear that Watermans will just be a memory in a decade.

Raymond Havelock ● 505d

You will have to wait a bit to see the latest version of proposals for Watermans, but I hope they will be seen in the next couple of months.Watermans Trustees have been unanimous in wanting to move to a site in the town centre (the Police station meets the bill, as would Ballymore) because there is precious little passing clientele on the current site.Hounslow have a retained financial stake on the riverside site, but only as landlord for Watermans. The Max Factor site was sold many years ago to an Insurance company on (from memory) a 999 years lease. This and the cop shop were bought several years ago by a developer.The agreed proposal - now with planning approval by the SoS - has commercial flat development on the prime site on the river with the arts centre and social/affordable  homes on the cop shop site.Nobody particularly likes this, but until we have large changes in the way the property market works this proposal will get us (if it proceeds) a good art centre, a lot of dwellings available to those on the council list or currently in temporary accommodation, and a number of private dwellings on the river, including a much better riverside walk and much more visibility of the river through gaps in the new buildings, where any visual contact is blocked by the existing building.You may not have noticed there are two public car parks, one (Ballymore) about 100M away and Ferry Quays about 250M away. I don't remember how many Blue Badge spaces are provided but there are many street spaces near by which are accessible (free) to BB holders,

Guy Lambert ● 505d

It’s expensive to build a theatre and cinema complex and keeping it on the river would reduce the amount of prime land available for the swanky apartment blocks marketed overseas. Profit is the overriding factor here. I’d be surprised if it is any bigger or better than the existing site.The proposed new venue is effectively a tower block of flats with an arts centre attached. And as usual it’s not going to have any car parking provision, with a pretty inadequate ‘two disabled parking bays’ outside. Not exactly encouraging the less able patrons in.

Simon Hayes ● 505d

This is someone else idea that I heard some years back but to me it still sounds pragmatic and sound.That the site gets its redevelopment but with Watermans incorporated based on the fact that Brentford remains a ribbon town and not a radial town it is more or less in the middle but in the best location for parking. access for the all important residents of more affluent districts of Chiswick Kew Richmond and Ealing more of whom have consistently patronised the Watermans than locals .The idea being that the Theatre and Cinema and car park are below ground, the gallery and daytime  and light arts at ground level and the hospitality areas on an overhanging balcony like a ships galleon over the river a layer of shops, cafes etc. above and then the housing.And yes with a huge increase in populous with ( if the marketing is to be believed) affluent people with disposable income, it might even be a self sustaining centre without such dependency on Arts Council grants - which are a choke chain within itself.Why that idea was never offered or even discussed seriously with the wider local populous is disappointing.  Probably because it came from a local and not a politician or marketing bod from a developer.

Raymond Havelock ● 505d

Considering the expected influx of new residents it would seem a no-brainer to provide a really top quality entertainment complex in the town. Otherwise all those people simply go elsewhere to spend their leisure time, and money. There’s an obsession with coffee shops and restaurants in the development plans but that only caters to a niche clientele. Unsurprisingly people actually like to have things to do locally that aren’t just eating and drinking.

Simon Hayes ● 505d

The site of Watermans and the Park was bequeathed to the Town of Brentford by North Thames Gas and whilst the Arts centre never fulfilled it's intended potential i.e. the part of the building that became Max Factors offices in it's first decade the place was a resounding success. Rather ironically the poorest aspect of the place was it's cinema which suffered poor sound and projection quality.  It is now the remaining sparkling jewel of a place that despite it's crap architectural function is second to none as a location.Most people I know don't want the place to budge an inch from it's location but the Trustees for many a year seem bent on moving it and blaming it's woes on it's location. I think that's more akin to a Bad workman blaming his tools....or possibly the tools supplied.But for the site to have been sold without consultation of the people it was bequeathed to should not have happened with a clear outline of the alternative and the support of those who used to use it and miss it's eclectic but mainstream balance which somehow got mislaid a good two decades ago.Such a shame but suspect it's move will actually end up being the end of it and probably will become the Watermans App.I and many who grew up here cannot think of a better location where you can have live events, late events and easy to get to events that cause no issues to residents or businesses and still cannot understand what on earth the Trustees and management are or were thinking.

Raymond Havelock ● 506d

All fine in principle but there’s every chance this could turn into Brentford’s version of Ealing’s long lost cinema. 14 years and counting for Filmworks.

Simon Hayes ● 506d

I have fought strongly for Waterman's future in Brentford, including serving 4 years as a trustee. No longer in my ward (it's in Brentford East now) but I have high hopes of a new home being provided in Brentford West, the ward I now serve.The planning has been delayed by a call in by the Secretary of State and a public enquiry. It has been approved by the enquiry but the delay has not helped. I do expect good news very soon next year.All the stuff punted round social media about moving to Hounslow (or anywhere) never had any substance. Steve Curran was determine to make it happen here, as have a lot of senior officers including the Hounslow Chief Executive.

Guy Lambert ● 506d

So what’s the future for the Waterman’s Arts Centre? No word since April 2021 about possible relocation before the existing site is levelled and built on.Given the admission by Cllr Lambert that the highest bidders always win and profit comes first how likely is it that the future of this much loved and well supported asset will be secured in the brave new world of Brentford? Or will it be shoved off to Hounslow as was mooted some years back?

Simon Hayes ● 506d

JimI served on the planning committee for about 6 years - off it now, which I regret.I don't remember Ms Biddolph having been on Planning -but I find she was on the committee for about a year in 2018/9 before being replaced by Mike Denniss. I suspect her standing down would probably coincide with her brief adventure as leader of the opposition, which seems to have been unpopular with her own party from what I hear.John Todd (who has a splendidly balanced approach, used to regularly attended the BCC whilst it still existed) has been on Planning all the time I have been a Cllr and Sheila O'Reilly was on the committee in my first term. The equally independent mind exhibited by Mike Denniss (who lives in Brentford) was the other Conservative last administration after Jo Biddolph disappeared.The reality is that local councils have very limited influence on who buys land, decides what they want to build, and when, and who they target as purchasers. Of course, major applications come to planning committee but developers are mostly interested in making a profit and any attempt to reduce the developers net profit below 20% net will regularly be appealed and the inspector will normally find in the developers' favour in that instance. Of course as a local authority we try and get the best outcome we can but we live in a world ruled by largely unfettered capitalism and frankly if the Chinese, Americans, Saudis or Irish can outbid locals they will win.The committee is generally pretty independent and there was at times a little awkward squad often centred on Todd, Louki, Lambert and Collins who often frequently voted against officers' advice and against the Leader (EG Morrisons, Tesco, Ford Dealer in Hounslow, former Pissarros in Chiswick spring to mind, but there were many more)The current committee includes 3 Brentford members (was 4 but Lara asked to be relieved due to work strain) one of whom is the vice chair. There are 3 more who live in Chiswick so 6 members, representing 6 wards in the East of the borough represents nearly a third which is much in line (a bit more than strictly a little over-represented)It's for BrentfordTW8 to do some journalising. I reckon I do my bit!

Guy Lambert ● 507d

In all my years living in Ealing Barnet and Brentford I cannot ever remember a concerted effort by Councillors to oppose or take on the concerns and warnings of developers and their proposals. Some rejections but usually they still end up getting their way.Whilst the red tape and policies don't help nor the procedures for ordinary people to object. It the lack of spine in councils to lay out strong design expectations,rigid S106 and other enhancement package criteria and ensures the areas affected benefit and don't get damaged in the quality of life for all.In the past decade its lots of small business losses, small to medium businesses pushed out, and developments marketed to overseas investors and very often at discounts abroad that were not available to UK or EU citizens.It's the complete lackadaisical attitude and the dancing to the tune of the political masters to get a few grants here and there that make this all so wrong.It's gone on for so long that it's taken as normal practice.

Raymond Havelock ● 507d

I gave up on this forum because everything I ever posted was shouted down by various Cllrs

Neil Chippendale ● 507d

Good.. the link works.Without wishing to be too controversial...it would appear that Brentford's dear riverside location and nearness to some great open spaces..is not being wholely developed for local people.. but being shamefully robbed for the benefit of financiers, developers etc.On the Chiswick Forum recently we noted that Hounslow's Planning Committee is.made up of some 17 members..so few of whom have any connection with the area.Joanna Biddolph(?) had apparently resigned from the Committee because she was seemingly frustrated by the incompetance of some of these decision makers.The Brentford TW8 Forum  remains asleep  or perhaps feels unqualified to halt what's happening.Guy..you're the only one of 6 local Councillors talking to us... what's the score?

Jim Lawes ● 507d

https://youtu.be/omy7e_-EkMkThis YouTube link should lead viewers to a revealing take on the Ballymore developments... for the eyes of Far-East bankers.If no luck with the link..perhaps pop over to the REAL BRENTFORD facebook site.

Jim Lawes ● 507d

Lambs Passage needs more - I think I've heard of it before, probably from you.As to the Bill's site, I remember seeing a presentation about a plan to redevelop Bill's with housing, plus more in existing storage site behind the Jet station. If it ever progressed to a planning application I don't know.You're right about Holland (before my time, but why we allowed it I don't know) and you're right about Pump House. That rather appeared as a surprise to me- either it was an earlier planning or happened when I was on hols or something.The Labour party has some charming members who usually manage to convince concierge of the importance of local politics (provide they keep me out of the way).I need to revisit my statement about planning: I'm personally strongly against any private developments who don't allow public free access (perhaps with some exceptions for private areas) and I do not think we have allowed such private estates since I have been a Councillor. I will argue strongly against any proposals to create such areas being, or becoming, unaccess to local people.Thanks for seeking clarity.

Guy Lambert ● 507d

Season's greetings to you Guy.I'll quickly mention again the Lambs Passage place..just to be mischievous.It's behind the Bill's Army Surplus place near Kew Bridge.Venture behind the scenes there at your peril. A firm called MK Complete Joinery have premises there too. It may be private land but the hostility from a chap called Charles caused him to contact my daughter in an unfriendly manner. She lives on the Outer Hebrides.!I was surprised when I ventured onto  the Holland Gardens estate (not within the GATED AREA) but outside in roadways called Pump House Crescent etc...where there are more flats flats flats/ tall buildings that not many would know about..which I found FENCED IN! The high metal fence didn't even fascilitate a gate for pedestrians to access Green Dragon Lane or the Steam Museum. I had to retrack my steps.I'm sure you have problems with these places when delivering political leaflets. What are you and your colleagues allowing to happen?  :)

Jim Lawes ● 507d

Jim, whilst I agree with many of your concerns (though my limited experience of Milton Keynes is confusing roundabouts and predominantly housing in traditional semis and terraces).But where will these 'gated estates' and 'Keep out' will prevail? Nowhere, if I have a say (though there might be some private gardens). Griffin Park includes a substantial new public park, and is available for unimpeded access by the public as I believe will the Heidelberg, police station, Morrisons and Watermans site developments.In fact the only 'Keep out' in Brentford I'm aware of is Brentford Dock (which was set up in the 1970s) other than private gardens I'm aware of by some of the blocks in GWQ.Let me know if any development is suggesting such restrictions!

Guy Lambert ● 508d