Forum Topic

The Gating of Brentford Dock

(See the article on the front page of TW8).These are important clarifications:1) if you wish to comment to LB Hounslow on the Article 4 Direction, you should include your name and postal address within your email.2) Brentford Voice would welcome your general opinion on the gating, irrespective of whether you are in favour of the gates or against them. Please email your thoughts to:   info@brentfordvoice.co.uk

Jim Storrar ● 793d36 Comments

Good Morning Jim,The way I understand it is John Dale is front man for Brentford TV and Jim Stirrar is the Frontman for Brentford Voice. Mind you, maybe ask Cllr Lambert he seems to be in bed with Brentford Voice perhaps he can enlighten us more. Either way LBH and Brentford TV/Voice have failed in their campaign against BDL.I don't really care where they both live although John Dale used to live on the Dock. Whoever is flying a drone in Brentford needs permission from the CAA to fly it in this area as its part of the London Control Zone which is a high risk area from the surface up to 2500 feet I very much doubt they would get official permission as we are under the flightpath to the Northern runway.The 2 public roads on the Dock are Augustus Close up to the BDL security office and Dock road. Good luck with walking along there the paths on Augustus Close as they are in a terrible state and its very easy to trip on the uneven surfaces, LBH probably are aware, but have done nothing about it.The other road is Dock Road which is jointly owned with Ballymore after LBH put a CPO on BDL some years ago. I am surprised you have not called out that sniper Anne England after she had a pop at you in her last post!Also the 2 of new Gates have already been vandalised,thanks to the unwanted publicity of Brentford voice/TV. Finally, I could say a lot more about all of this and the despicable behaviour of LBH and call out a lot more of the previous planning Committee.Im not gonna say much more because Storrar and Co use it against us. Genuine question?They say he is a planning expert, so what qualifications has he got to back this up?

David Cook ● 757d

I sometimes get a little confused about thelocal newscasters BRENTFORD VOICE and BRENTFORD TV.Isn't John Dale the BTV frontman?Doesn't he live on Brentford Dock? He has produced some fine TW8 videos.but I'm being nosey in asking about a financial connection with Colonel Gaddafi's daughter!Doesn't another local.media frontman live on THE ISLAND ESTATE with fine views of the New Pedestrian Bridge at Brentford Lock West.I know about the chap producing great pictures  at that latter place ... seemingly using a drone!If some roads  on Brentford Dock are maintained by Hounslow Council.... can we not walk on them?

Jim Lawes ● 757d

You really need to check your facts. You are mixing me up with somebody else’s Postings. Besides what you are saying is only a part of the problem.

David Cook ● 758d

There are 'litter louts' everywhere. Why you should imagine that Brentford Dock suffers from litter louts from outside of the area any more than any other area does is another matter (and that includes litter louts from the Dock itself). The woman from Brentford Dock who you happened to chat to once on the bus certainly turned your head. You were the one who initially was posting about how unwelcoming the gates were. Brentford Dock have succeeded, in gating, in making their own back yard rather undesirable and all off the back of some imagined (or feared from Ballymore) invasion.

Anne England ● 758d

Totally agree. So much misinformation was appearing in these threads. It is shamefull that LBH has wasted taxpayers money on a lost cause from the start and that Brentford Voice has meddled in business they know so little about. Residents can now respectfully enjoy their private leisure areas in peace and quiet.

Elizabeth Price ● 758d

As there as been no other responses to this thread I thought I might add LBH have now withdrawn their latest Article 4 Direction against BDL. This is after BDL once again won their legal argument and LBH have now agreed to refund BDLs legal fees. A big win for BDL and leaving Brentford Voice river Waterside access plan in tatters! I am still fuming that LBH even brought this second Article 4 Direction as there were no new legal arguments. It was an utter waste of Council Tax payers money. Further the planning Committee has a lot of new planners who did not understand an Article 4 including the vice chair and many others. The way it was brought before the Planning Committee was an absolute disgrace and this should never have happened in the first place.

David Cook ● 758d

I don't take offence, might disagree but that's what debate is .Sometimes it leads to consensus, other times it goes the other way!I'm not so sure I like it when people get called names even if I happen to agree with the point they are making.

Raymond Havelock ● 775d

Good Morning Jim,Yes that is correct, for example I am part of the “Better Pictures Group” and we have informal gatherings there and majority of our members are from across the borough. Although we are only a small group we have had several Photo exhibitions at the Waterman's centre.The rules on Street photography in London and elsewhere are very complex and until a few years ago many Police Officers were not even familiar with the law. Thanks to a campaign lead by Amateur Photographer magazine and the well known late MP Austin Mitchell the Police became much more aware of the Photography laws regarding Street photography. I myself have had many run ins with the Police and Private security firms over the years in London pursuing my hobby. TFL policy is very strict and especially for commercial photography which they charge enormous sums. Normally if I was going to take a photo on a station platform I would ask permission from the Station manager. They have a strict no flash or tripod policy for non commercial photography.I am sorry if I appeared rude to Raymond Havelock’s postings ,it was not my intention to upset him and no offence was intended. I of course like to see his many and varied postings here.I would of course like to see the thread come back on track and that is namely LBH,s mistaken Article 4 Direction that they seem hellbent on pursuing.

David Cook ● 775d

Hello again David.I recall the Brentford Dock Residents' Clubroom hosting events to which "outsiders" were invited.This can be GOOGLE'd and it leads to a news item on the frontpage of this website on 18/ 01/ 2019 listing lots of activities taking placeIs this now out of date?Regarding photography. I recall that Canary Wharf in London having such restrictions for security reasons.

Jim Lawes ● 775d

Yes as far as I know. The Law was also changed last year and now in some instances Trespassers can be prosecuted. As the Estate is a mixture of Private and Public space. BDL cannot stop the public from taking photos for instance from the public paths on Augustus Close. if you were taking a photo from there of someone sunbathing in their private garden or Balcony then they could reasonably say the photographer was intruding on their privacy and they could call the Police to deal with that.

David Cook ● 776d

Can Brentford Dock residents take photos on/of the Dock?

Anne England ● 776d

No you are wrong for the reasons I have previously stated.

David Cook ● 777d

I think you need to take a clear look at what the law says in this. Unless individuals or minors are involved you need a legal injection to prevent filming or photography in the public domain. No different to standing in a street.I consulted two professionals on this several years back on a work issue.And it's only France where this is not permitted.

Raymond Havelock ● 777d

No sorry you are completely wrong about the Photography aspect of your reply.As they were on Private land they need the Land owners permission to take photographs. Now if they could have taken a telephoto shot of the gates from Dock road footpath then there would be nothing BDL could do about that.The Private land starts at the top of Dock road and there are plenty of signs there to that fact.

David Cook ● 777d

Anyone can take photographs on private property that has general access or shared space. - Just like railway stations. Only H&S restrictions apply. It is only photographing people on private land that requires permission not the envisions.Permission is not required in any environ where people can access ie a footpath or open space used by anyone be it the Postman or a resident going to their particular home.  Taking photographs through someone's window or intruding into their own personal space is an intrusion.I do still live in the district as have my family for 3 generations. Just not in Romulus Court.The very reason that the Govt, LCC/ GLC and the Port of London Authority among others set out to open up the river was for the very reason to end the exclusivity enjoyed by the very few. Your Neighbour being one of those.The difference being is that your neighbour is landed gentry and is an estate owned for many centuries and Brentford Dock is a very recent development in an age of equality and democracy and inclusiveness to all not the very few. It was decided thereafter that that will not continue and that as riverside land became available, it would be wherever possible accessible in part to the public. Evident along the Mall in Hammersmith when the Beemax Factory closed and Watermans park to name but two. At the very least footways would link between.The changes for the better as you mention, started with the cleaning up and opening up of access to the river. The place stank from the rotting industrial neglect and 200 years of pollution almost constantly before that.Brentford Dock would not have been possible without the huge amount of taxpayer funded decontamination and stabilisation of the site and the riverbank which was written off to enable feasibility.I will agree it is rather strange that all these records seem to have vanished but then that's not the first time in recent times. The rationale for low height buildings from Morrisons to Heidelbergs back in the 1970s and 80s also seem to have been lost to public record.

Raymond Havelock ● 777d

RaymondI have to disagree with a lot of what you have said, there nothing sneaky or insidious about what I have said about Brentford voice and others. In fact they the insidious ones coming up onto private property taking Photographs on our private land without BDL Permission. Its their negative publicity and rantings on Facebook pages that have led to more people accessing our Private river frontage. The gates are in and wont be coming down anytime soon and that is what the majority here wanted.Your so called fact about a public access route is also wrong. This part of the Thames is not along with Syon House.In fact there are many places where the riverfront is not accessible to the public. All of this comes at a cost because of hearsay rumours and other rubbish being written about Brentford Dock. No we are not an elite group, its nothing at all do with that. In fact BDL treat everyone here the same, whether you are a Council tenant, lease holder or Private leaseholder. Unfortunately LBH do not and we have seen that when they only write to their tenants.The Syon Gate is open to all residents here, and the only stipulation is we pay BDL for the fobs who then pay Syon House for access on a yearly basis.You show me on any definitive map about what you are claiming about Public access route or Land registry document that says this.Brentford Dock is a very open Estate you can access my front door without going through any security and that is part of the problem. These New Estates being erected will not have that same sort of access. We wont be able to access the Church area or their private roof gardens when completed.You have not lived here for 30 years or more and a lot of things have changed here for the better.Im well aware that Trespassing is a Civil offence and you cannot be arrested for that. However if trespassers are causing a nuisance, damage or other anti social actvities then they can be ejected. That is the why we have security here to deal with that. If they cannot then the Police are called.

David Cook ● 777d

It's rather insidious that the blame is being foisted to Brentford Voice and some TV channel I've certainly not heard of.Reading all the Brentford Voice stuff they have (quite rightly in my own opinion) done something that should have been done by the council and certainly more openly and honestly.  That is highlight the issue of restricting the access to the Thames.  Nowhere do they mention access all areas.  Their wording is very fair minded.The Thames and its riverbanks are a national asset for the public.  Overseen and protected by a Public Owned body - for and on behalf of the Public of the UK.It has long been policy for near 60 years to clean up and  open up the riverside - Long before Brentford Dock was conceived.  Subsequently this was factored in to its construction.  Part of which was not completed.  At the time I thought it inadequate given all the fanfare at the time.However, the issue is only an issue because of a Council mess up in detail of a sale.  Fact is it was a public access route and has existed for many decades.Having once lived here, 3 decades back now, there was always an element who did not like it and desired exclusivity. The resentment towards the Council tenants was indicative of that.Trying to deny Council residents the key to Syon Gardens special gate " Only for Flat owners" I recall.  Not very inclusive.So hat's off to a local group who have highlighted the anomalies which is quite right and proper. That's what I call divisive.The real blame lays with the council - yet again.  Just like Parks contracts that left out cleaning the footways!I suspect the real anger is that Brentford Dock got caught out and thought they had got away with their intention.

Raymond Havelock ● 777d

Jim - 'scallywags' don't hog the view from Julius Court all day, Brentford Dock is a largely deserted place. The best thing you could do is to visit the Dock yourself but being as you now seem to view that as not the thing to do - rather contrary to your initial view of the matter - then just stand on the bridge on Dock road where you are perfectly entitled to be and watch the hoards entering and eventually leaving the Dock. You'll have a long wait.

Anne England ● 777d

Well explained David and thanks for the background. Hopefully local Councillors will read the thread.I've had my fill with "scalleywags" "thieves" and "shoplifters" being let off the hook so to speak. We read of so much of this happening via Facebook Groups. It's gaulling that M&S Chiswick don't challenge shoplifters for fear of attack.Brentford High Street greengrocers get used to people stealing from their stall. Even the Blue Zone has it's crafty intruders.In the immaculate Boston Manor Park yesterdayI witnessed scalleywags in a group slinging an empty vodka bottle on the ground ...could get easily broken and with children around. You must dread the summer and such folk hogging the view from.Julius Court all day

Jim Lawes ● 778d

Not that I condone trespassing 😂

Bradley Taylor ● 778d

Just a point of interest - trespassing is not a criminal offence, so not much in the way of enforcement can take place. I’m waiting for a resident to say ‘I’ll call the police’, so I can laugh and carry on with my walk. Good luck trying to get police attending for that. And if anyone even touches you, to guide you from the Dock, it will be them committing a criminal offence, namely common assault, for which police will (eventually) attend.

Bradley Taylor ● 778d

Hi Jim,Well that new Canal bridge was installed in 2018, if im honest that got the alarm bells ringing here on the Dock.That meant there was a direct link from the Ballymore estate into the Dock. Thats one of the reasons the first gates were put in on the Brentford Dock site to prevent unwanted access and led to the first Article 4 Direction from LBH. The first Gate was actually vandalised at great cost to BDL thanks to Brentford TV/Voice negative publicity about the gates. They are still looking for the perpetrators.It turns out the Bridge was paid for by a PFI between Ballymore and LBH. I applied to LBH for a FOI on it. Guess what, they wont tell me how much has been spent on it. LBH tell me it has Statutory exemptions and its commercially sensitive information. There is absolutely no transparency on what LBH are spending of our Council taxes. However the Thames Path does come up Dock road and turns right after the lock down onto the canal path along to this bridge up the steps and across the bridge towards Ballymore estate its clearly signposted as well.Maybe thats the reason it was renewed but I don't know. I have my suspicions but cannot prove it. It was probably a deal done between LBH and Ballymore at some stage offering access to Brentford Dock! I remember all of Ballymore advertising back then offering riverfront access. Maybe they meant the Brent River/Canal and not the Thames.We get the same problems as the Island and I have been over there to deliver stuff to someone I know there and had to be let in because i did not know the entry codes. I think you find now all new developments have to allow access and thats a condition of planning nowadays. That was the case with the Island although it is gated for cars and Pedestrians. Its a bit rich and hypocritical when one of Brentford TV Directors apparently lives on the Island.If Im honest the argument was never about the odd pedestrian walking around Brentford Dock, but with the increased footfall with the lockdowns it soon became evident we were going to have much bigger problems. The pathway along the Syon wall which was grass was temporary fenced around that time to prevent people walking on the grass as it completely wore out to mud. Again another cost to BD residents. In fact all the pathways were renewed around the estate a few years ago because of the damage.What I am really fuming about though is the way LBH try to ride roughshod over us with another Article 4 which if enacted will cost BD more money as BDL will have to apply for planning permission to carry out any more works. Its the double standards and hyprocrisy of LBH. I seem to remember all the furore of the multistorey carpark being erected without planning permission and no stop order being put on it.Apologies for the long winded reply but there you have it.

David Cook ● 778d

David: I wonder whether the pedestrian bridge across the Canal leading from the Brentford Project (near ridgeways) to Brentford Dock is surplus to requirements... if the exit at one end is locked?I have sympathy for BD residents. Who wants litterlouts and worse from outside the zonespoiling your fine enviroment.We're lucky that THE ISLAND ESTATE hasn't banned us outsiders from walking around there, once again with it's fine views, nothwithstanding a spate of bike thieving and more.

Jim Lawes ● 778d

No you are the one getting this all out of proportion! If you have friends on the Dock fine I am sure you will be very welcome to visit. If you are by yourself you are trespassing. The land is private as already been mentioned and there are no public footpaths or rights of way up to the point or along the riverfront and if you care to look at the definitive map you will see that.Its already been mentioned numerous times about the massive increase that happened during lockdown and when the this massive over development to the town centre comes and becomes occupied it is obvious that would lead to more visitors on the riverfront.

David Cook ● 778d

Aren't you getting this all out of proportion? Walk around the Dock and see how many people are actually out and about. The very great majority of people never even think of wandering over there and the small no. who do do so very rarely although admittedly there may be a few exceptions.Whether I and any other who dares to walk very occasionally on the Dock should be wearing ID is another matter. Are we really trespassers and lawbreakers? I have a couple of friends on the Dock and they welcome my presence.

Anne England ● 778d

Yes and to bring some balance to your misguided comments ,Perhaps next time you decide to visit Brentford Dock maybe you will wear some form of identification to mention you are a Trespasser and Lawbreaker and say it out loud.However my main beef is with LBH who were wrong to bring the first Article 4 back in 2021, just like they are wrong now to bring this second Article 4 Direction. I am quite sure they are under no illusions how the majority of BD residents feel about this. Whether they listen is another matter. LBH were quite happy to take Estmanco’s money back in 1991, but not the far reaching consequences of their sale.Its quite obvious that some here have not been paying any attention to the previous thread and the thread back in 2021. Brentford Voice and others are the ones who need to “get back in the box” they are the divisive ones not us proud BD residents.

David Cook ● 778d

A wristband is too easily hidden so how about a Brentford Dock scarf for the winter and neckerchief for the summer? 'Say it loud, I'm Brentford Dock and I'm proud.'

Anne England ● 780d

David, thanks. Your right and I fell shamed. I'm more of a prole than a troll. Maybe a wristband wouldhave benn a better suggestion. A bit like they use at big music festivals.

Fred Heston ● 780d

"Fred Heston" - I sincerely hope that you are a troll and that this is a deliberately offensive message. There are previous instances from history where members of the public have been required to identify themselves with badges (Germany/Poland and elsewhere, c 1939). Please retain some perspective.

David Gallagher ● 781d

Such a sad bit of Brentford's history.

Fred Heston ● 782d

The most extraordinary thing about it is that should you ever dare to go over to the Dock you will find it is very peaceful with hardly a soul in sight.

Anne England ● 782d

The Brentford Dock people who support the gates should be thoroghly ashamed of themselve. When they come in to town, I hope that they wear badges that tell us where their from.

Fred Heston ● 783d

Done!

Vanessa Smith ● 792d

Ramblers.org.uk says a public right of way can be created by 'deemed dedication' after 20 years of public use. The only stipulation seems to be that the landowner did not object during a period of 20 years. So surely the path on the Thames side of the Dock has met this condition a few times over since the 1970s? My wife and I have walked there a few times a year since we moved to Brentford. Always very quiet. Never seen any a.s.b or littering. I saw a claim that 592 Dock flats are paying £200pm - that's a huge £1,420,000 a year, to maintain the place. Is even a fiver a month extra needed to pick up the very occasional sweetie wrapper or whatever from a Brentford resident walking there? A made up false excuse, I reckon. And did the group going gung hu for 'geroff moi land' ever get a majority of owners to agree with this gating proposal? I think the main impact of gating would be to make Dock residents' lives more difficult, just moving around the imprisoned area and having visitors or deliveries.

Eric Baker ● 793d

Raymond - this issue relates to the riverside and canalside walks, although the marina itself includes some important parts of the community's industrial archaeology.

Jim Storrar ● 793d

This does relate purely to the river or canal pathways and not the actual inner garden open areas?As a former resident for a decade many years ago, it was only the riverside access that was public and the routes to it but the rest of the inner areas were for residents. The path ran in front of the flats with little garden frontages which were no different to those of say Strand on the Green albeit more enclosed. Having not been there for a good while is this the disputed area?I recall a group who always had a bee in their bonnet about exclusivity which was not how the estate was envisaged otherwise it would have been gated or inaccessible from the off.As I had a job offer abroad, moved away and did not get involved. But this was near 40 years ago.

Raymond Havelock ● 793d