Forum Topic

Flag at the Brentford v Oldham game

Listening to BBC London on the way back from the game, it seems quite a few Bees were offended by Oldham's "Born in England, Live in England, Die in England" flag.Any thoughts.............?I got this posting from another website. Do people find the flag racist?

Neil Chippendale ● 7121d19 Comments

A LABOUR Party official caused outrage last night after suggesting sports fans who wave the England flag are racist. The outburst came from Terry White, of Labour’s Communications Unit, in an email to a member of the public. It followed a row last week when ex-minister Gisela Stuart claimed the rise of Englishness is a threat to democracy. German-born Ms Stuart said she is concerned people claim to be English rather than British. The man who complained, named only as Allan Murray, wrote: “Why is it that as a party you dislike the English so much? I am fed up to the back teeth with Labour’s endless dumbing down of the English. The Labour Party are trying to wipe England off the UK map.” Mr White, who is 65 and near retirement, wrote back: “England, as opposed to Britain, has an unfortunate history around the world and within the British Isles and please do not say that it is all past. “It is a fact that the right and extreme right in Britain cloak themselves in the English flag, the cross of St George and claim to be the true representatives of the English. “Wherever there is hooligan behaviour, usually linked to extreme right-wing political groups eg, at football matches here and abroad, it is the flag of St George that is displayed.” Millions of flag-wavers will be outraged by the attack on fans. After England’s rugby World Cup triumph a million supporters packed the streets of London to cheer their heroes home many draped in the St George’s flag. There were similar scenes after the England cricket team trounced the Aussies. Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell raged: “I find these comments insulting and outrageous. “People will be very angry to hear what Labour thinks of them and their country.” UKIP leader Roger Knapman said: “This is an insult to our own people. To suggest that England, but not Britain, has ‘an unfortunate history’, is sheer ignorance. If Labour is seeking to disown the Empire, then it should be told that it was the British, not English, Empire.” A Labour spokesman said: “We cannot condone these comments and they in no way represent the views of the Party. We apologise unreservedly for any offence caused.”

Paul Fisher ● 7111d

Over stating it a bit,don't you think Colin?You believe in the right of free speech do you,or do we all have to agree with you to be allowed that?Vorsprung Durk Technic...

Keith Iddon ● 7115d

'' at least at I can bothered''......decent English for decent English people!

Kevin Farnan ● 7116d

Its great to hear Mr Murphy sends St Georges Day cards to "decent English people" as he calls them. I must admit I dont know what he means by "decent Engish people." I have always thought the majority of English people are decent. As far as I am concerned just the fact we can now buy St Georges Day cards in shops is a good thing.It is obvious that there must be a big market out there for such items.

Mark Welland ● 7116d

I understand the flag being flown was a St George's flag. As such, it would be ludicrous to describe the flag as racist. The question that should have been posed is whether the slogan is racist or offensive. I suspect those who made the flag intended it to be offensive, and if so they have achieved their objective.Comparisons with the French and US flags raise some interesting issues. Has anyone ever seen a French or American flag with a slogan scrawled on it? I certainly haven't. I suspect anyone writing a slogan on the stars and stripes in the US would find himself/herself in deep trouble for defacing the national flag.For my own part, it took me many years to regard the union jack as a national symbol of the UK. In my youth it was a daily reminder to Catholics in the west of Scotland of their second class status and frequently bore the interchangeable slogans "no surrender" or "F.T.P." For the uninitiated the second slogan incites an unnatural sexual act with the head of the Cathoilic church.Fortunately the majority of the population in that part of the UK has moved on from this crude sectarianism. However, the next time you take offense when black English players are subjected to racist abuse in Europe remember that a UK player, Neil Lennon of Celtic, is unable to play international football because of death threats made to his family in Northern Ireland.Sorry that this is such a long reply. However, I believe everyone should be able to attend football matches without feeling threatened. The Hearts supporter who recently was convicted of racially aggravated assault for describing Craig Bellamy as a Welsh b****** probably has some cause to feel hard done by in the Scottish courts. However, within my own hearing at matches in Glasgow this has produced a significant reduction verbal abuse. So perhaps some good was done.

John Connelly ● 7117d

So you don't see that slogan as being atypical of the "far-right pondlife who have tried to hijack it"? So the flag in itself is not enough for you - you need "patriotic" endorsement?Here's another example of patriotism:"Strength through Joy", or if you prefer, Kraft durch FreudAnd as for you so called patriots, at least at I can bothered to get off my @rse and send St. George's day cards to decent English people.

The Pseudometer ● 7117d

Well said Keith. We have an identity and rightfully should be proud of it. This sort of thing would not happen in France,Germany,United States...I could go on and on. I wish that the P.C brigade would mind there own business or more to the point..get into the real world and listen to what the MAJORITY of people in this country want.

Mark Welland ● 7117d

Concurs nicely with what the new Archbishop of York recently said, as it happens.The English have for too long been denied their right to express their pride in their heritage and culture.

Keith Iddon ● 7117d

I could not agree more with Paul and Kevin. There are too many people in this country now who seem to think just because a racist party have adopted the Union Flag, or St George's Flag that everybody who stands behind it also is racist. If somebody wants to declare "BORN IN ENGLAND,LIVE IN ENGLAND,DIE IN ENGLAND." it is down to them.

Mark Welland ● 7117d

I`m sure that the PC brigade who demanded it be removed would have done so regardless of the City/Town its owners came from and this is a worrying trend.As I stated in my earlier post,I believe the more we see our National Flag re-introduced as a matter of course on all our Civic buildings and schools etc then the quicker we will reclaim it from the far-right pondlife who have tried to hijack it.Why is it only this Country that makes its people feel guilty and slightly suspect for being patriotic?

Paul Fisher ● 7117d

Well said Paul & Keith!!There's a difference between being racist & being patriotic to your country.It was only the Sunday before last when we had the Remembrance Day Parades all over the country & at the Cenotaph in Whitehall.Are the PC brigade going to call all those men & women who fought for this country & proudly displayed their flags that day ''RACIST?'' I think not, nor did I see or hear any person from another country be they white, black, brown or yellow complain about the flags being flown & carried by English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh or any other members of the Commonwealth.

Kevin Farnan ● 7117d

Real charmer,aren't you Colin?What is the view like like up on that high horse?

Keith Iddon ● 7117d

Paul, it has especial significance coming from Oldham - remember BNP council elections and race riots?Keith, with that in mind, I stand by what I said to cause maximum insult to those people involved.

The Pseudometer ● 7117d

What is possibly wrong with the words on the flag? Yet again our English heritage,pride and traditions are being construed by some to be outdated, oppresive or even racist.Every other Country in the world is proud of their Nation and yet some PC idiots are trying to make us ashamed of being English.Do these people not understand that the St Georges Flag and the Union Flag are at last being reclaimed from the fascist scum who hijacked it for years and are now both great symbols for all the English/British people regardless of what colour creed or religion they may be?

Paul Fisher ● 7118d

Or contentment...you live here out of choice,do you Colin?Or are you being forced?

Keith Iddon ● 7118d

Not really, just a display of a tragic lack of ambition.

The Pseudometer ● 7119d

""quite a few Bees were offended by Oldham's "Born in England, Live in England, Die in England" flag.One wonders what such a flag has got to do with a game of Sport...football ..Brentford v Oldham. My father was born in Sudan (english parents working out there) ..he came back to UK at age 1 year..lived here 88 years and died here. Even he..who was racist..would have been offended by that flag..I reckon!But then we may not be aware of what life is like back in Oldham? Their sentiments must be a reaction against something!

Jim Lawes ● 7121d

Hope all flags were at half mast today after the Police shootings yesterday.

Sarah Felstead ● 7121d

No It's a fact for anyone born here and wishes to say here to the end of their life.If you mean England then it's the country that I was born in, Fact not fiction

Paul Allen ● 7121d