Forum Topic

Wareman's.

See the front page article.I wondered how long it would be before we were told the project was in doubt,despite being assured several times that we would have a new arts centre in the centre of town.Funny how inflation,shortage of labour,supply problems and all the other blather stated in the article that is proving problematic hasn't affected the building of all the other parts of the huge development.I don't kno about anyone else,but I'm not sure there is anyone with any clout is really batting for Brentford right now as regards facilities beyond a supermarket and more flats.What else has been provided for the community,except longer queues at local surgeries? Oh, there's all the extra council tax receipts of course,and the cycle lanes,and the 'temporary' traffic lights that seem to have taken root.

Keith Iddon ● 177d89 Comments

It is only if the books are opened to the public that it is possible to discuss the closure sensibly.I cannot think of any commercial reason for the secrecy.No business plan was either prepared or open to the public for the proposed move to the basement of the closed police station

Chris Dakers ● 14d

Oh to have a Brentford Councillor like John Todd.Instead we have one or twoundeserving people amongst the 8-9.Agree several of Brentford's are tops.A another case of a rosette on the back of a donkey in many cases though.

Jim Lawes ● 14d

Cllr John Todd has posted on Chiswick W4, the following:‘ The Watermans Centre is now closed. The CEO of the Arts Trust who run the building provided an explanation on the date of closure. A large £129k electric bill and diminishing income. The Arts Council provides the Trust with £122k until 2026 and Hounslow Council £100k plus with a minimal rent . Other benefactors and trading cinema etc brought their income to around £1m. The Trust accounts showed that the auditors confirmed they were capable of continuing as a going concern and the Board had taken steps to plan to deal with the cash flow issue.’If there was the funding there to continue as a going concern, why the sudden closure? There are clearly plenty of things here that the council is not telling the public.https://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=councillorsblog353.htm

Simon Hayes ● 14d

644 signatures on the Council Waterman's petition. Surely 1,000s of Hounslow and Ealing residents must have visited Waterman's over the decades?I'm sorry I missed the protest. How many turned up?Any ideas out there as to what Waterman's fans should do next?

Eric Alan Leach ● 14d

Thanks for that - I do appreciate that anyone claiming there is a simple solution to all this will be ill-informed.Just to clarify one point - is there any relevance to HAT having a lease until Autumn? They have vacated the premises and surely aren't going to object to a successor organisation occupying the building?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 17d

Tomorrow is the last day of the Watermans being open and there is going to be a protest at 1pm. My 96 year old neighbour is planning on attending bless her.

David Cook ● 25d

Thanks for the info Jim, I am sure that will be most helpful.

David Cook ● 27d

Hi David.I think you could deliver the completed Petition Forms ... back to Redroutmasters letter box ... or ring the bell!

Jim Lawes ● 27d

Thanks Jim, I will tell a couple of my elderly neighbours to get them there as they are not internet savvy at all. That LBH petition well past 350 now! Obviously shows the strength of feeling for the Watermans in the community.

David Cook ● 27d

If you visit the front door of the Offices of "Redroutemaster" in Market Square (next to La Rossetta) you'll find a leaflet holder filled with blank petition forms.Take one and fill it in!

Jim Lawes ● 27d

Fair enough. I wonder if there is a paper petition at the Watermans? I have signed the online one and notice there are 300+ signatures so far.

David Cook ● 27d

It's not 'they' who should start a new petition but 'us'.

Eric Alan Leach ● 27d

The LBH website has been like that for years. I am sure it won’t be changed anytime soon. They make it difficult and laborious for a reason! Once you have a  “Log on”it does become easier to access. We had exactly the same problem with the petition to save Hatton Fields. Some of you might remember LBHs flawed Article 4 directions against Brentford Dock Ltd. Guess what they still on their website a year after they have expired. I have pointed this out via their complaints form at least 3 times all to no avail.I doubt very much they will listen and start up another petition.

David Cook ● 28d

Can I suggest someone create a new Save Waterman's petition. Accessing the current Council petition is laborious and tedious and might deter folks signing up.The fight for Waterman's should not end as the fight for Richmond Ice Rink, which was demolished with honeyed words about building a new one - which never materialised. The fight for Ealing cinema took many years but was finally successful as was the fight for Warren Farm.

Eric Alan Leach ● 28d

The council have not closed any doors. The current lessee have decided to close the doors. I hear they have a lease (rent-free) until the autumn.You're right that whatever happens there is not a long term future for the existing building. That was decided about 6 years ago when planning permission was given to create a new centre on the police station site. That remains the position, with the planning agreed by the government in 2021 after a public enquiry, with the planning inspector observing it was agreed specifically because it included the new arts centre.Of course, the economic reality has made this much more difficult because of rampant inflation in construction costs, dramatically increased interest rates making development more expensive and people who look to buy new accommodation with much less ability to do so. That's still the plan though, but it's hard to predict when.That's why since I first heard of this about 10 days ago I have been working with local community groups to see if they can create a 'meanwhile' plan for keeping the centre going. Far from straightforward but a lot of energy behind it and we are working with the people in the council who are the landlords of this building.For the record, the vast majority of the original construction cost for the existing centre came from a wider property deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermans_Arts_Centre

Guy Lambert ● 30d

Although I am not a fan of petitions the proposition behind this one is sound. It is not saying keep the existing centre open forever, just that it should continue to operate until the new one opens. What is interesting here is that the council went straight to complete closure when the Hounslow Arts Trust informed them they would have to vacate the building. A relatively benigh explanation for this is that the council are concerned a granting a temporary lease to another arts group would delay the demolition of the centre and hence the opening of the new one. If you want to call me naive, explain to me why the council has so quickly closed the door on alternative uses for the site.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 30d

Although I have become aware of a petition on LBH website, thats a complete and utter waste of time. Signatures wont save Waterman’s in its present position,it is finished the building is old and decrepit and done for unfortunately.It was Waterman's trustees who decided its future and decided to close.

David Cook ● 31d

From what I hear is that the Waterman's issue is already becoming highly politicised and will feature heavily in the by-election campaign. On the one hand there seems to be the 'it's all the council's fault'camp which includes everybody but Labour and the 'blame the previous management' camp which isn't explicitly the Labour position but they are probably pleased to be off the hook.This looks like being quite a nasty and divisive campaign with the level of animosity towards Theo Dennison from the Labour group very high. I think the campaign needs to be over before people can start to focus on solutions rather than criticism of their opponents' plans for the centre.Personally, I still remain optimistic that there will be faster progress on the development of the new centre than people currently think.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 31d

A Rosette on a Donkeys hind quarters!

David Cook ● 31d

Keith mentioned what?

Keith Iddon ● 31d

Ha ha,Probably the other incumbent of Brentford West, Keith did mention this a long while back in another forum topic. Mind you it will be really interesting to see what the turnout will be,when in the last Council election there was barely a 30 % plus turn out.

David Cook ● 32d

Who are you calling a 'donkey's arse'?!

Anne England ● 32d

Yes, I second that and having stood as an independent in the same seat last time I would encourage, in fact ask that gallant group of 226 independent open minded people who voted for me to now support Theo and show the Labour Party we are not mugs and that you can't just stick a red rosette on a donkey's arse to get voted in at west Brentford

Robert Ayres ● 32d

The meeting last week was apparently organsied through the Brentford Friends Facebook group which is probably why people like me who tried to avoid Facebook never got to hear of it. It appears as if it was a lot of sound and fury with nothing particularly concrete coming out of it other than the suggestion of 'meanwhile' uses for the venue.Trying to be optimistic here, I still believe there is a chance of a Waterman's art centre being delivered in the next few years if a deal can be structured to protect everybody's interests. The only way this could now happen is if Albany Riverside is constructed and sold first and the proceeds used to fund the new Watermans. There would have to be absolutely 100%, belt and braces, copper bottomed, cast iron guarantees that the developer could have no possible reason for not delivering the arts centre on schedule and to specification . How this might be achieved is beyond my expertise but it is in both sides interest to reach an agreement.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 33d

Brentford voters are not that gullible.

Guy Lambert ● 34d

'Good luck Theo I say!'He'll need it.

Anne England ● 35d

Ha ha ha, I hear on the Grapevine Theo Dennison is standing as an independent down in Brentford West! Good luck Theo I say!

David Cook ● 35d

There'll be a few of them in Cannes who are rolling over and having their tummy tickled by investors.They'll be trying to tickle yours come election time.

Keith Iddon ● 35d

These Labour councillors are very thin skinned. They don’t seem to understand that the vague hopes they have to reopen the Waterman’s has been proven to be nothing but hot air.Lambert dislikes any criticism of himself or his colleagues. Yet this situation has arisen because they have mismanaged the planning in Brentford and failed to ensure that guarantees from developers actually have any meaning. He talks about some initiatives he’s proposed but there’s zero detail on these, including on funding or where these things will happen. There’s a by election looming so perhaps its just canvassing talk.One solution would be for the council to find another developer (the recent trip to MIPIM in Cannes must have produced dozens of such candidates) and then use a CPO to buy the police station site so development can start relatively quickly. There’s £175million in reserves we are told, so what better way to show that these promises aren’t empty? They will get the money back, as Ealing did with its Filmworks development. Sitting around waiting for something to happen and moaning about Liz Truss won’t get anything done.

Simon Hayes ● 35d

I heard it was a lively meeting and plenty of people there calling LBH out! Even Ex Labour Councillor Theo Dennison calling them out for being disingenuous. That in a nutshell is what this about. They (LBH) didnt want to hear what people had to say or answer any questions truthfully.It stinks of a huge “Done deal” behind closed doors to the detriment of all residents in Brentford.

David Cook ● 37d

A lot of ‘hope’ from the council but very little evidence of any progress.When the pandemic struck and the centre faced an uncertain future a lot of us put our hands in our pockets and kept it going. That seems to have been conveniently forgotten now.If the centre was viable to run then that’s down to the mismanagement evident for some time. Lack of publicity of events for a start. Certainly a greater effort could have been made to attract more people with a wider, more appealing events.If a new centre opens before the end of this decade I’d be amazed. It’s not just the developers who fund that, money has to come from elsewhere, including organisations like the Arts Council. Others have asked dozens of questions on this and more and are yet to receive any answers.It is a stitch up and the council has been asleep at the wheel.

Simon Hayes ● 37d

We were given so little notice to cut down on the flak,you don't have to be Sherlock to figure that one out.

Keith Iddon ● 37d

While the council has many flaws, trying to paint it as the villain in this case isn't particularly helpful. Broadly, while it has granted permission to many developements all of us would rather it didn't, it does face huge pressure from the government to boost housing starts and a mismatch with developers when it comes to their ability to challenge planning applications they would like to block. In this context they have done relatively well in maintaining a high proportion of social rent stock as opposed to bogus 'genuinely affordable housing'.As for what they should do now, Cllr Lambert's silence is probably explicable by this being a fluid and complex situation in which an out-of-turn public comment could be damaging. He has always shown willingness to engage, and, while you may not like what he says, you need to give him credit for that.A CPO is an obvious non-starter. Even initiating it could end up delaying building commencing either because it would deter potential investors or cause complications with the administrators if the developer does go under.Apparently a public meeting was held last night on Watermans although it seems to have been inadequately publicised. I don't know what has emerged from it, if anything but the more I learn about the closure, the more I believe that the council is just being washed along by the tide.The probability is that when Hounslow Arts came to them and told them that they couldn't viably continue to run the Waterman's, they spotted an opportunity to deal with another problem - namely the developer of the new centre telling them they were on the brink of going under.The arts centre being vacated allows work to immediately commence on Albany Riverside which is where all the profit from the twin schemes will come as riverside flats sell like hotcakes. The Half Acre scheme on the other hand will probably be loss making even without taking into account zero yield from the new Waterman's. However, now revenue from the Albany Riverside scheme can be used to cover the shortfall of the Half Acre project. If this is correct, we should be getting an announcement fairly quickly of the Albany Riverside moving forward with a firm timetable for the new Arts Centre. On the other hand, maybe I am being naively optimistic.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 37d

Well, money talks as always. Cllr Lambert has been unusually quiet on this for a while. Home truths, perhaps.The irony of planning policy is that the much trumpeted housing crisis isn’t being addressed. The new homes being built aren’t for those who really need them, since they might be the pesky types who want schools, health provision, affordable entertainment and competitively priced local shops. Instead they target the affluent, no doubt attracted by coffee shops and pricey niche offerings. But Brentford isn’t Chiswick, no matter how hard the council desires it.Go to Reynard Mills, vanguard of the exciting new Brentford (though fortunately local campaigners fought off the excessive height originally proposed there). They can’t flog the 3 and 4 bed houses there, probably because they are overpriced and quite pokey. Now offered for rent on flexible tenancies. I wonder how many takers they will get.

Simon Hayes ● 38d

I also went to several meetings that the developers held. Our concerns were the height and density. Did they or LBH listen. No of course not. They wanted to build a lot higher than originally planned. The Brentford masterplan is full of it. No we wont allow over 6 stories,but look what actually happened and usually with restropective planning permission. It’s the hypocrisy that I am calling out.Cllr Shaheen although popular here is full of it and now he is responsible for the Parks and open spaces and recently he visited the Hounslow Urban farm with his kids. He was quick to tell everyone on facebook how wonderful the Farm is! Yet its on short lease along with the sports clubs,Footie clubs, Horse Stables at Bedfont all facing closure due to LBH not renewing their leases. Have a look at Friends of Hatton fields website and you will see what Im talking about.All of these developments are not popular with the locals! The recent Brentford Football club training ground is another case in point. They did not listen to the local residents.

David Cook ● 38d

Indeed,I took the 'it's one of the conditions of the new development that a world class arts centre is to be built' to paraphrase what was claimed a couple of years ago,with a hefty pinch of salt.I was not surprised as I am not that easily fooled,but very disappointed.i have been to a few of the developments meetings over the years where the new flats and other buildings that were proposed were announced with relish buy council officers,bringing thousands of new residents to the parish.Wouldn't it be good to have a 'world class arts centre' for us all to use.I am sure that the old police station site would be ideal and the place would thrive much more than in its present location,particularly with all the new residents.

Keith Iddon ● 38d

No doubt the councillor who regularly appears here will rebut such claims but the truth is council deals with developers are shrouded with mystery across the country, with those most impacted usually the last to find out.It beggars belief that the council wasn’t aware of the impending closure of Waterman’s, especially with serving councillor Rhys Williams on the board of trustees. All the talk last year was of hurrying along the development of the new arts centre. I don’t buy the sudden blaming of increased costs, as nothing much has changed in that respect in over a year. More like the police station development is less attractive to the developers (who appear to be in financial difficulty) and they just don’t want to get on with it.There’s also been blame for the delay caused by the calling in of the proposals by the Secretary of State although this was an absolutely stone cold certainty because of the visual impact on the protected area of Kew Gardens. The council will have been aware of that from the moment the planning application went in.If LBH are genuinely committed to the new arts centre then it can issue a CPO to buy the site and negotiate with other developers to get it built. Otherwise there will likely be a very long wait for any new centre to be open for business.

Simon Hayes ● 38d

Its another unpopular mess caused by LBH. Yes you are right CILs play a big part to swell the Council coffers and Community tax payers also. If it was a big arts centre I doubt they pay business rates like you mention. LBH are selling lots of land across the Borough for redevelopment and they give the nod to Developers before any planning comes to their Committee. In other words they just roller stamp it when it does. A lot of you might not of heard of Hatton Fields but they facing exactly this problem with LBH hell bent on letting the common land be developed into a larger Industrial estate and housing. Hence my points about them concreting over large parts of the Borough. No concern for the environment or the carbon footprint this will all cause.

David Cook ● 38d

Cllr John Todd was going to raise the issue at the Borough Council meeting earlier this week but I don't think anything new emerged as a result of his questions. He called the decision draconian and criticised the lack of public meeting beforehand and the failure to consider any alternative uses for the site. As I understand it the Hounslow Arts Trust was given use of the site rent free. We should be entitled to an explanation as to why it has been ruled out that a similar deal with another arts organisation has been ruled out.On the other hand, there are a few conspiracy theories doing the rounds that the council has hurried along the closure of  centre to profit from selling the land. As the site was effectively sold some time ago as part of the Albany Riverside deal, this seems to me unlikely. The only financial incentive I can see for the council is the accelerated delivery of housing (none of which is going to be social housing) and Community Infrastructure Levy payments from the developer (some of which would be delivered in kind with the building of the new Arts Centre.)

Jeremy Parkinson ● 38d

The bleat from councillors about the costs of development ring hollow. All developers are only interested in maximising profits. It’s not unique to Brentford and holding off on building projects is nothing new. It’s called land banking.If the supposed developers of the old police station site are really in financial difficulty then they need to sell the site to one that isn’t. The Filmworks project in Ealing dragged on for years because of similar issues and it took a council CPO to eventually get things moving.The problem is compounded by the likelihood that any arts centre will be the last thing completed, way after the flats are built and sold. Has the council insisted that the new Waterman’s is given priority? I doubt it.

Simon Hayes ● 39d

Looks as though the Labour Hounslow Council completely washed their hands of it last night

Paul Fisher ● 39d

The residents of Brentford have really been let down! Watermans if it ever gets built at the Police station wont ever be the same. Watermans was named the Watermans because of its location. LBH owned the land and should have absolutely insisted the new Watermans had to remain there with the nice views.Again the planning committee have let everyone down in Brentford. I continue to call them out for what they are doing all across the Borough. They only interested in making as much money as possible to the detriment of the all the residents wherever they are in Hounslow Borough.

David Cook ● 39d

I feel really heartbroken about this decision to close Watermans - incredibly, with only about 3 weeks' notice. I love it, the unequalled special location, great food, great films and other arts productions, workshops for kids, and lovely atmosphere to just hang out in. Before the new location (will it really happen, though?) is even ready. I guess the developers are just impatient to start building their (ugly) flats. I was brought up in a seaside town, which in my parents' youth was full of beautiful, lively venues for arts, concerts, swimming etc. Gradually all demolished, replaced by ... housing for oldies, posh flats etc etc. I get the same sad feeling now about Watermans. Why are beautiful, creative and functioning local venues so often destroyed? I was one of the lucky ones, to have known and used Watermans. Sorry to those who won't know it.

Rosemary Ward ● 42d

There could have been some nice landscaping incorporated into the development quite easily by the developers, but that would have come at a cost. What we have is a low maintenance site with a few trees and plants in large planters and no consideration given to birds or wildlife on the canal front. In fact the Ballymore site is devoid of bird song and any wildlife. I agree that the site needed developing. What we got was a massive overdeveloped site with a lot more still to come.

David Cook ● 42d

There never was any 'lovely landscape' in the site now developed by Ballymore. True, it was not all covered with concrete - some of it was tarmac, rubble and rubbish. You might not like Ballymore development: IMO it is a lot better than what was there before and it will be better still when finished. By the way, I agree about the Car Park but when I fought that I was told it was designed by an award-winning architect and I was outvoted.

Guy Lambert ● 43d

Guy you very obviously missed all the lorries delivering all Concrete blocks, Lintels and other huge concrete materials that went into the eyesore multistorey Carpark and rest of the Ballymore development and most of that came from the Republic. It must have had a huge carbon footprint in manufacturing and delivery! I don’t see any lovely landscape Gardening whatsoever in the Ballymore development. In fact there is even more concrete at the Canal edge.

David Cook ● 43d

If you can think of anything in Brentford that has been concreted over in the last 10 years let me know, because I can't think of anywhere. We've got 2 parks in the last year to have Green Flags for the first time and the existing parks at Boston Manor and Gunnersbury have been greatly improved, including opening a local history museum and revitalised the fantastic Jacobean Manor in Boston Manor Park.

Guy Lambert ● 43d

I have used the Watermans a good few times since moving to Brentford and indeed the photo group I was in are now having to look for somewhere else for their exhibitions. Several of my neighbours have just renewed membership to be told its now closing. So they feel a little upset at the news. To be honest I really believe the residents of Brentford have been rather let down with the concrete jungle now on our doorstep! It does absolutely zilch for any wildlife either. But heyho LBH have got form in wanting to concrete over vast swathes of the Borough! History will not look good at all these developments with absolutely no consideration for the locals. Who will want to come to Brentford to shop with only one overpriced Supermarket and very few useful shops? There are far better other towns to visit in the Borough. It was quite apt when Andrew Buckland described Brentford as “Flatford on Thames”.

David Cook ● 43d

The Times today said that the new cinema was going to be an Everyman. This was in a 'where to invest in 2024' article. I don't suppose anyone had actually visited to see the endless parade of 'luxury apartments' with no infrastructure to support them and the perpetual roadworks.

Susan Kelly ● 44d

Ah yes ... Nigel's Canal Boat Dock... Ridgeways.... outdoor social meeting spot    well remembered.RIP Nigel Moore.

Jim Lawes ● 44d

As, I believe David Cook has said, if Hounslow Council for once in the last half century had had Brentford's welfare at its heart it would have made the removal of Watermans to the Ballymore site a condition of planning permission. At the decision making stage none of us had heard of covid or Truss.It feels to me more likely that the Council was persuaded to remove competition from the new commercial cinema yet to open by what was Nigel's boatyard.

Hazel Dakers ● 44d

As you and others mention the costs of building a new Arts centre will be through the roof today. I doubt very much it will include another cinema as I mentioned before there is already a new one in place in the hideous Ballymore development. Jim Storrar is right the Developers have acted in time to keep their planning permission active.As for Watermans maintenance costs played a big part in closing earlier than expected. Old decrepit building on a prime development site with river access obvious what was going to happen.

David Cook ● 45d

If they can make the numbers add up. The costs of building just a theatre are enormous. Worcester has a proposed theatre with costs now in excess of £14million (as opposed to the original cost of £7 million). A new Waterman’s? Possibly £20 million.Much as I’d love to see this particular phoenix rise from the ashes I just don’t see it in the current economic climate. The usual suspects will blame the government but even a Labour administration won’t be funding the arts anytime soon.

Simon Hayes ● 45d

Not that scepticism isn't the right response but the timescales could conceivably be shorter than you suggest. The Half Acre scheme has planning permission and needs to crack on or it will lapse. The Albany Riverside is probably where all the profit will be made so there will be a strong incentive to complete quickly.The letter sent and the council's statement are telling us that a new art centre is coming. That may be wishful thinking or even a straightforward falsehood but it is too early to abandon hope on this just yet.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 45d

I just received an email from them.They are closing for business on April 11th in preparation for moving to  a new site blah blib blab....Fat chance I reckon.

Keith Iddon ● 45d

Whatever happens any new venue will be years away, and the possibility exists that during that time demand for it might wane. You’d be hard pressed to find a developer who is enthusiastic about building something like this. There’s no money in it for them. Chances are the Half Acre site will remain as it is for the foreseeable future.In Ealing the Filmworks project was stalled for years after the closure of the old cinema in the Broadway. The developers dragged their heels despite having planning approval. Ultimately Ealing council had to compulsory purchase the site to get the project moving. It still took 14 years to complete.

Simon Hayes ● 45d

The council may support the decision but it doesn't necessarily follow that the two developments have been decoupled. The most obvious danger here is that the developer will argue it can push on with the Albany Riverside scheme and delay the Half Acre one. However this may be effectively prevented by conditions put on the planning approvals. If so it would be nice to get some confirmation from the council.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 45d

No chance. The council is on record now saying it supports this decision.

Simon Hayes ● 45d

What would be nice to hear now from the council is an unambiguous statement from the council that the Half Acre development won't be built without an Arts Centre and the Albany Riverside scheme won't break ground until the Arts Centre is open.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 45d

No doubt Lambert will be on the case to push the new arts centre through, not least because he’s losing a curry house in the area….

Simon Hayes ● 46d

Oh yes, an expensive new cinema but not an arts centre. There are a lot of groups who use Waterman’s and the theatre there.

Simon Hayes ● 46d

Simon,I think you will find there is a New Cinema already built in the new Ballymore Development. When it will open is anyones guess though. LBH should have insisted that the Watermans should have been redeveloped on the existing site.

David Cook ● 46d

Sad news for those of us who have supported it for all these years. Guess those developers want that land asap.If it ever gets relocated, and that’s a big if, let’s hope it’s not as long a wait as Ealing had for a new cinema.

Simon Hayes ● 46d

I assume other people have had the email saying that the centre will close on April 11th. If you believe that a new centre will arise somewhere nearby from the ashes, you probably shouldn't hold your breath.

Susan Kelly ● 46d

Except the replacement of the old Morrisons, the police station, Griffin Park, the Duffy site at the new stadium, the former Methodist church, the new storage site on The Ham, the Marina, Phase 2 of Ballymore, the Alfa Tower, Sunley's Island to name a few

Guy Lambert ● 48d

Exactly that. Bet it wouldn’t stop the demolition of the existing Waterman’s and flats being put up there. What there’s no appetite for us building a new arts centre.Of course, after a triumphant MIPIM trip there will now be a queue of enthusiastic developers only too happy to build a state of the art venue….

Simon Hayes ● 49d

Funny how supply problems,Truss,Brexit and all the other 'reasons' have not affected the developments up to now,save of course Waterman's.

Keith Iddon ● 49d

I noticed on The New Plan that Pets at home demolished(new flats-Mcdonaleds demolished new flats)is there no small bit of land that is council will put up flats.CHANGE BRENTFORD TO FLATFORD ON THAMES.

Andrew Buckland ● 49d

Yellowscape doesn’t appear to be in the most robust financial health, posting a loss of £7million for the financial year to May 31 2023.Maybe it has access to a magic money tree, rather like Sadiq Khan.

Simon Hayes ● 49d

All is very much a mix of what policymakers and developers want and the rest is smoke and mirrors on what local people and residents want.It seems from years of this that most people want Waterman's to remain where it is and be enhanced or incorporated into what ever gets built there.No-one got asked when it was sold off.The fact that the site was gifted to Brentford by North Thames gas for the benefit of the people of Brentford after the North Sea Gas conversion project was completed, again with no consultation with the local populace. The local authority are supposed to be stewards of gifted assets ( rather like what's happening with part of Ealing Town Hall ) Nothing proper factored in.The Waterman's themselves have not helped. Becoming far too reliant on Arts Council handouts but these come at a price and the strings attached lost the impetus of the thriving and mainstream arts centre it had been and was the envy of many other Arts Centres.I and many others still remain unconvinced that plonking a smaller less versatile arts centre in the middle of a residential area will lead to it returning to the vibrant successful place it was and still can be.It never utilised its full potential and the design of the building, like the Fountain centre down the road was deeply flawed, but the location remains about as prefect for a community facility as one could ever wish for.It's been a complete stitch up or gross incompetence right from the start.

Raymond Havelock ● 49d

The Charlton House/Albany Place proposal has nothing at all to do with the Watermans/Police Station plan. That is a wholly council-owned site (some was owned by a Housing Association but I believe has or will be acquired) and will eventually provide 209 new council homes, plus some retail/commercial spaces on the ground floor.Jim has done his research on the Watermans/cop shop proposal and the majority of those sites is in the hands of a private developer.I have lived through a series of proposals for those related sites (cops and Watermans), all including a replacement for Watermans, but the viability has always been a bit precarious The plan was delayed for a long time by the call in by the Secretary of State which I believe was at the behest of Royal Palaces (which own the palace in Kew). All of this has made it all more precarious - we've had Brexit and the damage to the economy, the pandemic, great inflation in the cost of building materials (and labour) and finally the enormous cost of holding these assets for several years when interest rates have ballooned, especially after Truss. The austerity economy means that subsidies for arts centres has been drastically reduced.All that makes finding a solution that meets all needs has got more and more challenging, a matter that is getting a lot of attention from senior people in the council.

Guy Lambert ● 49d

Provision of a new arts centre was a condition placed upon developers? They obviously did not take that seriously and there seems to be no sanction put on them.I see the redevelopment of Albany Parade has been scheduled and will be going ahead unimpeded.What a sad joke,at our expense.

Keith Iddon ● 50d

We have repeatedly asked the Council for information on the current status of the linked sites at the police building in Half Acre and the Watermans/Max Factor building. No information has been given. The Brentford Masterplan provides no clarity. Regarding the police site, the Masterplan says that "An up-to-date feasibility study identifying the appropriate mix of cultural space should be undertaken to inform new proposals". Other statements from the Council have mentioned the appointment of a project officer, and the preparation of a "Draft Business Case and Financial Strategy".Rumour and speculation thrive in the vacuum of ignorance. Come on Hounslow, what is the current state of play? There are, of course, concerns relating to commercial sensitivity and the current state of the housing market, but what is your vision for the future of arts and culture generally in Brentford and for the Arts Centre in particular?What follows below may do no more than stoke the fires of rumour and speculation!The companies involved in this melee include London Green, Yellowscape, Bluescape, and Topland. All of these are very closely related, and they have director(s) in common.Bluescape got their planning permission in March 2021 for the Watermans/Max Factor site ("Albany Riverside"). This permission includes 193 flats. The freehold of the entire (now very valuable) site rests with LB Hounslow. A lease of the Max Factor building was sold to Bluescape for £5.5 m. in 2014. This lease expires in 2044.In 2014 the Met Police sold the freehold of the police site in Half Acre to Yellowscape for £9 m. In 2021, the site gained planning consent for 105 homes (including 60 affordable homes) built over a new Arts Centre. In 2017, the cost of constructing and fitting-out the new Arts Centre alone was estimated to be £11.3 m. The cost today would be much much more.Yellowscape's planning permission is due to expire in April 2024. They are now about to demolish the low-rise extension on the NW corner of the site. This cunning ruse will ensure that their planning permission does not expire in April.The Section 106 Agreement includes the requirement that not more than 50% of the homes at Albany Riverside will be occupied until the new arts centre has been completed and fitted out to specification. We don't yet know what the specification is. Will it include a first class theatre, cinema screen(s), exhibition space etc.?Follow the money?

Jim Storrar ● 50d

Is it still London Green that is to develop ‘Albany Riverside’ and the new Waterman’s/tower block? If so, judging by the accounts filed at Companies House there may be serious doubt that this developer will ever start the work. For the benefit of Cllr Lambert, the last accounts filed predate Liz Truss’s brief and disastrous tenure at No. 10.Next accounts due at the end of this month, so I guess all will become clear in due course.https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03988445/filing-historyKeith, expecting a council of any political stripe to impose any conditions on development ’partners’ is wishful thinking. The disconnect between those in planning departments and those living/working/visiting an area is usually huge, with very little understanding of the needs or frites of the resident population. With senior Hounslow boss off on a jolly to MIPIM soon you can expect relations to become even cozier. It’s exactly what happened in Ealing under the unlamented oaf Julian Bell.What was promised to Waterman’s was a world class arts centre. What will be delivered, if it’s delivered at all, will be much less than that unless there’s a significant change of approach.

Simon Hayes ● 51d

It was

Guy Lambert ● 51d

Could it not have been that a leisure,art and cultural provision being provided to replace it was a condition of the new development,particularly of the riverside land that Waterman's currently occupies and no doubt has developers salivating over?

Keith Iddon ● 51d

Well, that’s a BS answer.Approval for the project was granted in 2021. Liz Truss was PM for a brief period at the back end of 2022. I suspect there’s no real appetite on the part of the developers to build a new arts centre, and that was something other people involved in local arts groups said to me way before the planning was granted.What’s amusing is Lambert’s lazy finger pointing at the Tories for this. As far as anyone is aware Hounslow Council is the planning authority in Brentford and there certainly hasn’t been any problem in all the other building projects in the area. But then they are pricey apartments, not much loved local community assets.Do try harder Councillor.

Simon Hayes ● 51d

There was no BS but a) it relied on the word of developers and b)development is a lot trickier now post-Truss than it was when the planning was finally approved by the Secretary of State. I am no longer closely involved but it certainly was not BS when I was a trustee. There were always financial challenges because we were looking for a much bigger Waterman's supported by the Arts Council. All that is tied up with 14 years of Toryism.

Guy Lambert ● 51d

I had a strong feeling at the time that what was 'promised' by developers and local councillors regarding relocating Waterman's had a  whiff of bs about it.

Keith Iddon ● 51d

So a new masterplan for Brentford but still no firm commitment on The Waterman’s future.People involved in local arts, and at Waterman’s itself, whom I have spoken to have been sceptical about the proposed relocation. Probably with good reason. There’s no money to be made from building a state of the art theatre and cinema complex on prime development land. All that infrastructure is expensive to install and, of course, it doesn’t bring any return for the developers because it’s effectively dead space for them.Surely the council should be actively driving this forward? At some point the developers will be anxious to get started on that lovely space by the river currently occupied by Waterman’s. If the new site isn’t ready then the sad reality is the very valuable community asset will be lost.

Simon Hayes ● 52d

Just been looking into this a bit more. Are we sure that the developer London Green is still in business? Its web site doesn't seem to have been updated for a long time and just states 'exciting developments coming soon' the other development partner Topland doesn't mention Albany Riverside on its web site.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 170d

So what happens if no agreement can be reached with the developer before the planning application lapses?Has the ownership of the existing Watermans building been transferred or can we get reassurance that the centre will remain open should the Albany Riverside scheme be scrapped? In other words is the worst case that we have the centre operating as before with a derelict site on Half Acre or is there a scenario in which Brentford has no Arts Centre at all?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 170d

There will be no inclusive community leisure facilities at all in Brentford if Waterman's goes,bar the library which is not really in that category and is,I would imagine,hanging on by a thread.It makes me wonder if that was the idea all along.

Keith Iddon ● 176d

You are correct,Anne.I might be getting old timer's symptoms!

Keith Iddon ● 176d

Is this the meeting which was held in Brentford Free Church?I'm supposing there wasn't another in St Paul's.

Anne England ● 176d

That all adds up to no new Waterman's though, doesn't it? I see on the advertising boards in front of specsavers that there will be a new cinema.I suppose the council has said yes to this.The points you make about rising costs have applied for a long time and haven't affected the other developments and have been known about for years,including Brexit.A very weak housing market? I wouldn't advertise that if were you,those trying to sell many hundreds of new flats may not thank you.I was dismayed at a recent forum about the development held in St.Paul's when the same old information,slightly repackaged,was rolled out and a council employess read with relish the numbers of new flats in the developments,when it was filling me and perhaps some others with a slight sense of dread at the total.All with npo new doctors blah blah...Now if she had said 'we invisage 3-4,000 new residents livimg in these flats,people might sooner realise what this will mean,medium and long term.

Keith Iddon ● 176d

What gets me is the absolutely Ghastly architecture in an area of acute sensitivity.Plus the damage to the Arcadian section of the river. Still like many cannot see how moving Watermans into an area surrounded by residential homes which will have to mean noise and operating restrictions that the present site does not require.It was a gifted site and questions have to be asked as to how on earth the existing site got sold off with no questions asked?And how such a sensitive site after half a century of effort to return to public access for all had no restrictions to protect it in place.

Raymond Havelock ● 176d

Owned by a private developer. The developer claims to have economic problem with the scheme - he's been making the same point for years but the story changes over time.The Heidelberg development is going on fast and Ballymore (less fast than I'd like) are gradually getting on with it and we have a new chunk of a town centre and a large council block mainly built.The redevelopment of Morrisons is on ice as is redevelopment of Griffin Park but many others are continuing.It's true that the economics of development has changed - material cost inflation, lack of skilled trades after Brexit, very high interest costs after Truss (and Johnson) and a very weak housing market

Guy Lambert ● 176d

Duh..Waterman's of course!

Keith Iddon ● 177d