Forum Topic

Message for Alan Sheerins

Hello Alan.do you have any indication on how Ann Keen intends to vote on the Schools Bill?This could have big implications either way on Hounslow Council.Thanks

Paul Fisher ● 7279d50 Comments

Dan, your point is taken that the existing system which includes faith schools would be hard to change but just because historical accident has left us with an imperfect system I don't think we should not strive to improve it. We certainly shouldn't be adding to the worst aspects of the current system by fragmenting it further and making it more complex.I do agree that the French system isn't a good model but it is very aggressively secular thanks to the influence that the clergy used to have in education there. Their system is reaction to that hence the unnecessary hostility to wearing the hijab etc. It clearly isn't functioning well in a multi-cultural society as the recent riots showed. Le Pen has gained over 20% of the vote nationally in some elections so it can't be claimed that a totally secular system would save us from the BNP. What we need to look for in this country is some sort of half way house between totally faith based schools and totally secular perhaps with an obligation of a school to allow children the option of lessons in their family religion if the number of adherents rises above a certain percentage plus representation of their faith on the board of governors.

Justin Harris ● 7217d

Sorry wee man, you seemed quite eloquent on some posts, but I still don't get your ramblings.

The Pseudometer ● 7224d

Guy, although you seem to have moved the argument onto a different set of allegations against the Catholic Church you seem to have ignored some of the earlier issues raised.I'm very grateful that you are concerned about the way tax payers money is spent but the existence of faith schools saves a substantial amount for you and me. The various faiths make a contribution to the upkeep of the buildings and, as I said previously, generally own the buildings themselves. So if you were to close them down we would have to spend billions on a new school building programme as well as all of the on-going maintenance. Given that these are schools that are performing relatively well this makes little sense to me and I don't see how it would improve education in this country.You've also ignored the point about how exactly local schools such as Gumley or Gunnersbury are divisive. You allege that some schools somewhere teach that gays burn in hell. Are you suggesting that these schools do?  My own view is that you have fallen into the trap of equating multi-racial with multi-cultural. I'm sure you wouldn't dream of disliking people who have different colour skin to you but you have no problem with disliking people that have a culture and beliefs different to yours. Your vision of a mono-cultural system in which everyone was taught in the materialist (in the sense of not spiritual), morally relative system of our current state secular system is the antithesis of multi-culturalism. I'm happy that my kids should be taught in a secular state school but I recognise that lots of people aren't and that if provision is available for them to educate their children the way they want to, that is a good thing.

Dan Evans ● 7224d

"if used correctly condoms are 98% effective protection against STI's"For the sexually active these are pretty poor odds and go some way to explaining the explosion in sexual health problems. I would imagine the Catholic's point is not that condoms are useless don't bother with them but rather they are saying don't be promiscuous and think that because you are wearing a condom you are totally protected from disease. You originally claimed that Catholic schools didn't teach about sexual health. From what you now say it seems they teach it far more intelligently than many other schools. In your determination to bash them you seem to be missing a very important point.Also Tony Blair did not say God knew he was right over Iraq, he said that only God would know whether he was right. In a sense it was a tacit admission he may have got it wrong and God would judge him accordingly. Why is it a bad thing for a man to express his faith in this way? You seem to find it abhorrent that a Christian and presumably a person of any religion should have a position of any responsibility in this country. You say that the massive majority of the country has no interest or belief in religion but 71% professed themselves to be Christians at the last census. If you add to that the people of other faiths your maths starts to look as bad as your English.The Education Bill has already gone through the Commons. I'm surprised that anyone who believes it has such cataclysmic consequences would not have followed its course. The Bill simply recognises that the more independence a school has and the less subject to LEA interference the better it performs. Why should members of faith groups have this advantage in the education of their children when those of who don't regularly attend a place of worship don't?

Mike Hardacre ● 7224d

First off I would like to point out that at no point have I told anyone they were talking bollocks. My point about the catholic church telling lies about the reliabilty of condoms is true! Young people are told that even if used correctly that condoms are not an effective way of protecting against STI infection, rubbish if used correctly condoms are 98% effective protection against STI's.As for young people being able to choose their own religion, of course I would be dissapointed if my kids did follow what i believe in but as long as they come to their OWN conclusions, fair enough! As for attitudes being offensive, get a life! At what point have I insulted anyone? I have no problem with religion if people want to practise their beliefs fair enough. What I do object to is tax payers money being spend on  religious education that a massive majority of the country has no interest or belief in. Oh yeah, the stuff about gays and women is true, I'm not saying that all elements of any religion are like that, but some of them are. How anyone can say that I'm a xenophobe because of that, god knows! (well probably not because he does not exsist!) Note that I did NOT resort to having a go at peoples typos and telling people they talk bollocks! If this education bill goes through the Commons it is the beggining of a very slippery slope, we have already had Blair saying that God knew he was right to invade Iraq- what next? Anyone know where I can get a cheap flight to North Korea?

Guy Smith ● 7224d

Erm.. well Ian Paisley's privately funded Free Presbyterian School In East Belfast mainatians gays will burn in hell.  But then he's usually the exception to the rule as you will understand.My primary three teacher took all four catholics in my class up to the front and told us we'd burn in hell.  Not for being gay of course, but for being catholic.  She got off with it.

Conal Stewart ● 7225d

Erm... I know several people who went to a catholic schools and got sexual education and they discussed the issue of condoms.  They were given the Catholic church point of view certainly, but that was by no means the only point of view presented.

Conal Stewart ● 7225d

Interesting that you seem to jump at any opportunity to take offence at any post that isn't even meant for you.  Like I have saud learn to read a thread before shooting your mouth off.You problem appears to be that you can't handle a differing opinion.  I suggest forums are not for you. You seem to seek out problems with every post you make.  I suggest it is you that is seeking fights as you have jumped down my throat at every avilable opportunity when I haven't even beed discussing anything with you.I have addressed his response quite suitably I would like very much for you to raise your issues with me in person. I doubt you would.

Conal Stewart ● 7225d

"Catolic schools DO NOT teach contraception in their schools"You have no idea what you are talking about. They do. They also teach spelling."spreading rumours that condoms do not protect against HIV infection"Also complete bollocks. Like all schools it would be pointed out that condoms are not failsafe against protecting against STDs or pregnancy."Im saying it should be up to young people to decide whether they have a faith or not."This is just silly. Parents have a responsibility to pass on their beliefs. Don't/won't you teach your kids your own beliefs."I have several Irish friends and they have told me a totally different story about faith schools in NI."Somehow I doubt this but you completely missed the point anyway. The sectarian problems in Northern Ireland are confined to the part ruled from Westminster. Across the border there are substantial Protestant communities and no sectarian problems but the schools system is almost entirely faith based. To a rational person rather than someone who appears congenitally bigotted as you this would suggest the problems are more complex that can be explained by the school system."Some of the attitudes shown to gays and women shown by the more extreme elements of religion are actually very offensive"Just as your attitudes are likely to be offensive to many people. No faith school in the country as far as I'm aware teaches that gays will burn in hell. It is the classic trick of the xenophobe to make up sensationalist lies about what minorities believe."I dream of the day when we have a secular system of education, which pays no attention to any religion."Why not just move to China or North Korea then?

Andy Jones ● 7225d

Despite some very strong assertions Guy you still don't address to key points made earlier in this thread. Firstly how would we pay for the closure of all the faith schools in this country and where would we find land to build new ones and secondly why is it that we live in a harmonious multi-cultural area in Brentford where faith schools make up about half of the available school places if they are really so divisive?I think your views and mine coincide on the ridiculousness of some creationist views but I don't understand why the fact that some people believe them bothers you in the slightest. We would probably both agree that the key tenets of Christianity (the resurrection, transubstantiation) are pretty improbable. I think we would also concur that much of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Islam would seem unlikely to be right. So I ask you at what point should we stop other people teaching their children what they believe and make them teach what we believe?My view is that someone wants to set up a school that teaches the literal truth of the bible and enough people want to send their kids to it that's fine. Children are naturallly sceptical and they recognise nonsense more quickly than most adults do. You can't brainwash them.Even agnostic parents feel that the current school system offers little in the way of any guiding ethos and lacks discipline and true moral guidance as a result. The idea that you can teach that all beliefs are equal doesn't really work because you inevitably end up teaching children that all beliefs are equally worthless. I envy the moral certainties of Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and even creationists. It makes bringing up children much more straightforward and I don't see how their choice to bring up their children in their own tradition can be called divisive. Your assumption seems to be that if everybody thought like you then there would be harmony in the world. Possibly this is true but you are unlikely to be able to bend everybody to your will.

Dan Evans ● 7225d

1. Catolic schools DO NOT teach contraception in their schools, in fact the catholic church has been active in spreading rumours that condoms do not protect against HIV infection. As for you claming that our education system lack a 'moral' dimension, they have a 'moral' dimension with schemes such as 'The Silver Ring Thing' in the USA and their rates of STI infection and teenage pregnancies are nearly as high as ours!2.Im saying it should be up to young people to decide whether they have a faith or not. Sorry but what religion someone is or is not should be decided by them.3. I have several Irish friends and they have told me a totally different story about faith schools in NI.I would like to point out they you had nothing to say about Creationism, how anyone can stick up for that one is beyond me! Some of the attitudes shown to gays and women shown by the more extreme elements of religion are actually very offensive, would you want your child being taught that all gay people will burn in hell? I hope not! There is no place for faith schools in modern Britain. I dream of the day when we have a secular system of education, which pays no attention to any religion. If people want religious education then they should pay for it. I do not want my tax money spend on brain washing young people. I have a massive problem with anyone being taught anything that can not be proved, and lets face it when comes to religion none of it can!

Guy Smith ● 7225d

"Faith Schools are divisive"In what way. Are they any more divisive than selection by catchment area in which poorer districts end up with poorer schools?"they have not done NI any favours"It is funny how many people put the problems of Northern Ireland down to the educational system ignoring invasion, colonisation and discrimination at the political level as causes of strife. My family are from Cavan just south of the border in the republic probably only 30 miles away from some seriously divided communities. They have a faith based education system there and there is no conflict whatsoever between the different faith communites."Faith schools are wrong, many catholic schools to not teach their young people about contraception and sexual health despite Britain suferring from record rises in teenage pregnancies and STI infection rates."That is quite simply a lie. It is a few decades ago that I was at school and I was certainly taught these about these things even though the problems are more serious now. Teenage pregnancies amongst girls at Catholic schools are way below the national average. I think most people would recognise that it the weakness in the moral dimension in our current education system which is causing the problems we have currently with teenage pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases."try asking their children if they want a religious education, you have to be 18 to vote, get married and sign contracts, as you not considered mature enough to make those decisions. "In other words take away the responsibility for bringing up children from parents and give it to the state.

Andy Jones ● 7225d

Faith Schools are divisive, as mentioned before they have not done NI any favours. Some religious leaders such as Rabbi Jonathan Romain have spoken out against them. What worries me more is the fact that should this bill go ahead any christian fundamentalist with few million quid to spare will able to influence the schools ethos. You only have to look at the Reg Vardy schools in the North, where Creationism is taught as a valid scientific theroy. The head of one of these schools actually believed that the earth was created in seven days! It certainly scares the hell out of me!Faith schools are wrong, many catholic schools to not teach their young people about contraception and sexual health despite Britain suferring from record rises in teenage pregnancies and STI infection rates. The fact that these schools do this is beyond belief, I personally feel that they are putting our young people at risk. If people want their children to have a religious education then they can pay for it themselves. Or try asking their children if they want a religious education, you have to be 18 to vote, get married and sign contracts, as you not considered mature enough to make those decisions. Why not apply the same rule to religion?

Guy Smith ● 7225d

I'm afraid Conal that rather than blaming your poor benighted province's troubles on its education system you should consider that there are too many people of your ilk who seem to consider that anyone who disagrees with them must be their enemy. People generally avoid conflict because they have respect for other people's opinions particularly when those others are better informed and more intelligent than them. I make no claims for myself but others have, not just in this discussion, put forward points and facts which undermine much of your bluster and your response is not to try and formulate reasoned arguments of your own but to deliver more incoherent rants. I find it hard to believe that you even wrote a thesis on the subject of education as you claim as none of your posts seem to contain any information but your own opinion. You seem to go from discussion to fight everytime bypassing debate, argument, disagreement and row on each occasion.Like so many of the Liberal Democrats manifesto pledges the desire to rid us of faith schools is both uncosted and impractical. As a 'weddings and funerals' Christian I don't particularly care what the stated religion of my children's schools is, if any. What I can see is that the more control exercised by the dead hand of the local bureaucracy the less academically successful and disciplined a school is. As someone said previously we shouldn't be seeking to close these schools down but emulate their success which means more power devolved to Head Teachers, Governors and Parents and less power to LEAs. As John Prescott so eloquently put it - the trouble with good schools is that everybody wants to go to them - therefore left unchecked the bureaucracy would deliver us a system which was robustly fair only because it was uniformly bad.

Mike Hardacre ● 7228d

I think you don't understand having no idea of what it is like to have a system that has embodied division for years.  Since the point was raised BY SOMEONE ELSE that NI had above national average educational standards with schools that are in practice faith schools is in fact very relevant to this conversation!  I think Kevin was actually right to raise it as a point though.I see no reason why anywhere in England should people go down the road of faith schools and allow them to grow in any shape or form when there is a demonstrated failure of a faith school system that has failed miserably upon its own doorstep.  One that thrived out of prejudice. It is simply wrong to ignore the impact of segregated schools on the perceptions of children.I think I know fine well what divisive means having been in a system that created nothing but suspicion and a significant degree of social divorce.  And it is morally repugnant to assist in the perpetuation of such a divisive system.  Nothing illogical about it at all.  It is quite morally wrong to limit the social capability of children to be exposed to others who are not of the same religion, socio-economic background, and skin colour.  Trevor Philips recent thoughts on taking black boys out of the school system and educating them on their own fill me with horror.How I opt to counteract Kevin's argument is besides the point here.  I suggest you just don't like my opinions on the subject.  Whilst I have very strong opinions on segregated education it is because I have first hand experience of the failures of that system. For anyone to vindicate segregating children in the character forming period of their lives in education defies basic common sense.  Children simply must not be prevented from mixing with those different from themselves.Somehow the refence to Northern Ireland is not relevant to you, yet somehow it is convenient for you to refer to France having a secular education system and having desperately poor racial relations.  Hypocritical much are we?England isn't France I have to say and the circumstances are different, as of course they are in Northern ireland.  Other issues are at play in France, as my flatmate (from Lyon of all places) is quite plain in saying.  The French have not ended up with poor racial relations as a result of their education system at all.  You can stop perpetuating that myth as its simply fiction created in your head. You are being rather foolish to suggest as much.  France's problems stem largely from a complete inability for those of ethnic minorities to be able to move up through the social structure.  They are hemmed into minimum wage jobs and have little hope of access to better housing.  Housing policy in France is to my understanding utterly deplorable. The social welfare system is at best cumbersome.  My flatmate maintains that without the secular system in schools there would be no contact at all between cultures and ethnic groups and the racial problem would be worse that it is now.  Perhaps I should invite you around for you to understand these facts?Yes, we do live in a multi-racial area. We are lucky and London is overall luckily a city that does well at mixing.  London is used to successive waves of new immigrants, and here is the compliment; English people are in the main very outward looking in respect of culture whereas French people are very insular in respect of their own cultural identity.  To grow and build up a system of faith schools will not help us, it will lead to problems and you would do well to heed the warning from those who have suffered the problems of one system that enshrined it.  It will not help at a time when we have evidence that for the first time, 1 in 5 people in the UK have considered voting BNP.  I wouldn't want to live in a country where 1 in 5 people actually did so.  Maybe you would.People will have preferences and associate with people like themselves, I accept that. We all seek out those with similar views in life. But, how is that logical enough as a reason to cater to faith schools? Childhood is the character forming period of our social development as people and citizens.  The period when we learn right from wrong is the period we need to be with people who aren't like ourselves.I'm lucky myself.  I had parents that were not middle class that simply felt that they needed to stop religion deciding everything including relationships for us.  Like other parents in N.I. they decided they were going to give us every reason to mix with people unlike us.  Hence the rapid growth of Integrated schools to almost 18%.  I can count myself lucky, because of my education back home I have friends that are catholic and protestant and I remain largely unaffected by sectarianism in my family life. Many people can't say that were I'm from.  Thats sad.  I don't want the same to happen here. It will with opinions like yours.    You are welcome to disagree, but when you are hypocritical as you have been here in your post(i.e. I can't mention N.I. but you can refer to France), you are not justified in calling anyone else illogical.

Conal Stewart ● 7228d

Interesting though your debate about schools in Ireland might be it isn't really relevant to schools in this area. The fact is that all the best schools in the local borough are faith schools. I'm not a Church goer so none of my family would be likely to go to Gumley or Gunnersbury or St. Marks. I don't however begrudge their existence and would prefer the powers that be to focus on looking at what these schools get right rather than trying to shut them down.You are being a bit illogical Conal in describing the choice of parents to send their children to these schools as 'morally repugnant' and at the same time accusing them of being divisive. You may be right in your some of your criticisms but to use such terms suggests you don't really understand the meaning of the word divisive because by raising the heat of the argument by using ridiculously overblown language that's exactly what you are being i.e. divisive. My own observation would be that we live in a well integrated multi-racial area. These schools seem to take children from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds, if not faiths. There seems nothing to support the argument that their existence adds to racial tension. I am very sceptical of the view that it is good for children to mix with as wide a possible mixtures of backgrounds. This is an argument often put forward by white middle class parents who send their kids to comprehensive school but whose own circle of friends are exclusively white and middle class. In reality people tend to make the firmest and closest friendships with those that they have the most in common with. Of course there are benefits to meeting people from other cultures and social backgrounds but ask any teacher at a London comp and they will tell you children tend to socialise predominantly within their own faith group and occasionally this can lead to gang wars within the schools.We don't need to change our system to see how the alternative works. The French have the secular based system that Conal lauds; they have ended up with a very racial and socially divided society as a result.Let's just assume that we did decide to shut the 'morally repugnant' Gumley House, Gunnersbury, Green Schools etc. That would leave us with the problem that the State generally doesn't own the school premises. The Churches would presumably either take the schools out of the State system or sell the land for property development. In the meantime the tax payers would have to find the money to buy the land for new schools and then to build them which would run to tens of millions just for this area alone. The cost would be crippling on a national basis and all to achieve what? - shutting our academically strongest schools.I have several good friends who send their children to these schools that you (and the Liberal Democrats?) would like to shut. They are clearly sincere in their faith and feel that they are doing the right thing for their children by sending them there. It would make us a very intolerant and illiberal society were we to take that opportunity from them simply because we don't share their beliefs.At the recent teachers' union conference a motion was put forward (and I believe resoundingly defeated) to close faith schools. This must be the first time in union history that any motion has been put up which would have resulted in a substantial proportion of that union's membership would have been put out of work. This suggests to me that there are still too many people out there who have little connection with reality when talking about this issue. It may be a good thing if we closed all the faith schools but it is not going to happen so it is totally impractical - you might as well suggest 10p on income tax to improve education in this country. I think there is a large element amongst education professionals, particularly at the local government level of wanting to stir up this debate because it gives them a scapegoat for low standards in the comprehensive system in general and curtail discussion on substantive issues on practical measures that realistically could be taken to improve education for all schools in this country.

Dan Evans ● 7228d

Same old annoyance and petulance on your part.  Grow up.

Conal Stewart ● 7228d

With all due respect Kevin, I went to school in Northern Ireland and I do find faith schools divisive and morally repugnant.  I myself went to one of the first integrated schools in N.I. transferring from a selective faith school.  I have first hand experience of this.I am quite well aware that N.I. schools have a very high attaintment level but it has nothing to do with faith as part of selection.  It has everything to do with the culture of Northern Ireland where a higher priority is placed by society at large on educational attainment. The culture is simply different from England. N.I. kids simply get better results for several reasons:- children start formal schooling younger, they have significantly less holidays as I understand it, the (NI)CCEA is rated the best examining body in the UK.It is simply not true that Integrated schools in NI do well because they are popular with middle class families. It's a myth, I used to work for NICIE and did my MSC Thesis on integrated schools development. This myth is utter nonsense and is perpetuated by the annoyance of CCMS and the Churches in N.I at the runaway success of integrated multi-ability schools.  Hazelwood College in N. Belfast is in one of the most deprived and segregated parts of Belfast and there the children are drawn largely from families living well below the poverty line.  It does better than it's suburban counterparts in Malone and Carrickfegus. Sounds like you'd teach your granny to suck eggs I have to say and are merley offended that I have an opinion you don't like.  I grew up there in the system and I'm afraid I know better because of it. Faith schools are wrong.I find it divisive and wrong to educate children separately because of their faith.  It's my OPINION that it is morally repugnant and does a diservice to a fully integrated society.

Conal Stewart ● 7228d

Same old story: long on rhetoric, short on fact.

The Pseudometer ● 7229d

So you think the Green School, Gumley House and Gunnersbury School are responsible for raising racial tension in the area? These are more or less the borough's best schools, they are ethnically very mixed and from my experience give a good social as well as academic education. I can never understand the desire of some people to shut them down. You might think that people who choose to send their kids there are repugnant but that perhaps says more about your social education than theirs.The integrated schools in Northern Ireland have a very high attainment on intake because they are very popular with the middle classes in more prosperous areas. What is interesting is that Northern Ireland with a predominantly faith based system achieves much better results than England.

Andy Jones ● 7229d

The nature of this act is that it will solidify that there has to be losers for the few winners in schools standards.  The nature of choice New Labour has created is wrong. People don't need or want more choice they just need good local schools close to their homes.  So I agree with you.Allowing business access to the education of young people is wrong.  Look what happens to the cost cutting in schools services when the private sector gets hold of meals services and bussing children to school. ADT College in Wandsworth is an alarming case in point. Cost cutting all round.  Faith schools are wrong too.  Allowing children to be segregated in respect on faith is divisive and raises racial tension.  Children will simply not receive a good social education if they are only educated with those of the same ability, same social background and same faith/ethnic hue.It's repugant and you'd think New Labour would look at Northern Ireland and see just how the multi-ability non selective integrated schools perform.  They shame the selective grammar schools, they shame CCMS and de fact protestant schools.

Conal Stewart ● 7239d

Justin, your comments chime well with those made by Mary Bousted, general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers. She has pointed out that the education reforms are likely to create 'ghetto schools' which will result in an underclass who go to schools where there is no peer group pressure to achieve. By allowing businesses and faith groups to set up schools on an ad hoc basis the whole process of planning education provision will fall apart.This is not a good piece of legislation and I'm astonished that the present Government introduced it.

Nicola Brown ● 7239d

I don't think it is fair to say that parental involvement is not encouraged in local schools. You have to be prepared to draw a line somewhere and let the professionals get on with it.The whole issue of school admissions remains a nightmare even with the current relatively simple system. If you moved to a system where each school controlled entries and had completely different criteria then the amount of form filling would be daunted for any parent. I don't think it is patronising to recognise that some people are likely to be intimidated by such a system and won't have the skills to get the best for their child.

Justin Harris ● 7244d

I think this is a very good piece of legislation. It has been condemned as a charter for 'pushy middle class parents' but so what. Educating a child is a joint effort between parents and teachers but the current system seems to actively discourage parental involvement. The new arrangement can harness the strong desire of most people to see their kids do as well as possible. It is also possible to be pushy and not middle class. It was very patronising of opponents of this bill to portray the beneficiaries as middle class as if working class parents weren't interested in their children's education. The argument that it is unfair on children who don't have the kind of parents who take in interest in their education seems to believe that for fairness sake children with a supportive home background should be held back. Our local schools are on the whole not bad but all the best ones are outside the control of the LEA - that should be telling us something.

Mike Hardacre ● 7259d

What you said wasn't offensive it was simply untrue. Hardly anybody thinks that where you live should determine your right to participate here.Back to the subject of schools one word of caution - as far as I'm aware schools don't have catchment areas outside their boroughs. This doesn't mean your daughter won't get in because an 'as the crow flies' distance rule means that a Richmond school can't discriminate against Hounslow resident.The school isn't listed in the table on this site but the figures on it are available on the Dfes site. Richmond has the top results of any borough in the country. Orleans does tolerably well but not as well as Gumley or Green. It also doesn't have a sixth form which may be a consideration as transferring schools after GCSE can be disruptive. It has quite a low value added score which could indicative that they don't make the most of a good quality intake. This of course doesn't rule out it being an excellent school as there are a lot more factors to take into account.On the White Paper, as I've said academic selection is specifically forbidden but it is entirely possible that some schools could use their new found freedoms to exercise some kind of covert academic selection policy. In your own case - with a bright daughter - this would probably work in your favour. I think it largely depends how the bill works - as mentioned previously the best idea would be to only allow schools that are in some respect already failing to opt out of LEA control. If they then wanted to tighten up on admissions to bring up academic standards then that would help to rescue the school.

Dan Evans ● 7265d

I am merely offering people an alternative vehicle for discussion. I am not trying to make any political point here. As for where I live, I will refrain from mentioning it again as it quite clearly offends certain people.On the subject of schools, I am in principle in favour of what the government is trying to do in the proposed new legislation. My only reservation is that the better schools could use the new powers to start a policy of selection based on acedemic achievement. If this were to happen then I fear that the good schools will get better while the bad schools will just get worse.In my daughters case we are in the catchment area for Orleans School in Richmond. I have been told that this is an excellent school. I will not have to make a decision for a couple of years yet but I am keeping all of my options open.

Andrew Sibley ● 7265d

Well said Dan.

Aaron Walter ● 7265d

Very disappointing to see you passing up on the invitation to debate this important matter and revert to the silly falsehood that where you live matters as far as the vast majority of people who use this forum are concerned.It is also somewhat ethically dubious to be promoting a rival forum by peddling this untruth.

Dan Evans ● 7265d

Or you can go to www.icgforum.org.ukIt may be a bit too political for some people on this forum though. Still everyone is welcome on this forum regardless of their postal code.

Andrew Sibley ● 7265d

The ICG posted there website on here about a year ago for those who are interested in local Hounslow affairs.http://www.communitygroup.org.uk

Ian Roberts ● 7265d

Thank you for replying and well done on your daughter you must be very proud.You haven't addressed the original question which was about the Government measure being addressed in parliament today. You seem to be under the impression that it introduces academic selection which it specifically does not. As the intention is to devolve control of schools away from civic centres and give Head teachers and parents more power I would have thought from the perspective of the community group this would have been exactly the sort of legislation you wanted to see. The argument for how it would help locally is mixed. We don't have any bad schools and results are above the national average but the level of value added is low. The higher achieving schools academically are universally the ones outside local authority control. There is therefore a case to be made that the 'community' would do a better job of running schools than the LEA.I'd be interested to hear what options you are considering for your daughter. If you aren't going private and aren't considering faith (ruling out Gumley and Green) then that leaves just Brentford School for Girls. It is a good school and one of the best in the borough for the value it adds according to Government figures but it does rate that highly academically which suggests its forte is making children who haven't done well at primary level achieve better results at secondary. It might not be right for a gifted and talented child like yours. Maybe you need to look south of the river but I'm not really sure what the options are.

Dan Evans ● 7265d

Carol, can you please tell us who these "ICP" people are and what ICP stands for?

Andrew Sibley ● 7266d

Dan, sorry it's taken me a few hours to get back to you but I do have other things to do other than constantly monitor this forum. My views on the education system in this country are varied. I was educated at a comprehensive school and did not go on to study at university. My eldest daughter is currently at Smallberry Green School and is showing signs of being one of the more gifted pupils at the school. When the time comes for her to go to secondary school I will be looking for her to go to a school that has a history of good exam results. I'm not sure that I am in favour of schools having the right to select pupils on acedemic or sporting ability but as a father I want the best possible education for my kids. I am not in a position to pay for private education so I will have to make a choice based on what is available to me when the time comes. I suspect that this is the case for many other parents in the borough. One thing that is for certain is that my kids will not be going a single faith school (catholic, C of E etc).

Andrew Sibley ● 7266d

"they clearly have nothing to say on the major issues which effect us all."Much the same could be said of you Carol.

Dan Evans ● 7266d

You are quite right as always Dan, you have hit the nail on the head. These ICP are always willing to gang on people who dare to disagree with them in there petty squabbles but they clearly have nothing to say on the major issues which effect us all.

Carol Stanley ● 7266d

I take it from your non-response that you didn't really have any substantive points to make to the discussion on education.

Dan Evans ● 7266d

Oh do grow up Andrew. Are you seriously saying that just because one person tells you to sling your hook you are going to do what she says? I would like to hear the your opinions and others peoples on the education White Paper and I don't really care where they live. So let's hear what you have to say.

Dan Evans ● 7266d

Dan, I would love to air my views on this subject but as I live in ISLEWORTH TW7 my contributions on this forum are no longer welcome. Well not according to Carol Stanley.

Andrew Sibley ● 7266d

There seems to be a great deal of unwillingness to debate this very important issue. The weakness of the legislation in my view is that it will be primarily used by already very good schools to opt out of local authority control. Perhaps the bill should have stipulated that a school could only opt out if to some degree it was already failing as judged by exam results, value added scores or an OFSTED report.

Dan Evans ● 7266d

Ruth Cadbury wrote. 'Our schools have fantastic "value-added" and improvement scores'The value added score for the Borough from Key Stage 2 to Key Stage 4 is 998.3 which actually means value is being taken away.  Locally schools like Isleworth and Syon and Chiswick School have poor value added scores. Could it be argued that in a geographically elongated and very diverse borough like Hounslow the foundation system might work very well in the east of the borough as it would mean more local accountability for school.

Dan Evans ● 7271d

Yes.

The Pseudometer ● 7278d

Still don't get it. If you really care which way your MP votes then express an opinion on the Bill. Most people aree agreed on certain aspects of the Bill it is the question of how far the Local Authority controls admissions which is the most controversial. Do you think local authority control over schools should be weakened?

Andy Jones ● 7278d

As Ann Keen is my MP,regardless of what I may think of her on a personal level,she has the power of voting in all Parliament issues which of course affect us all.I was not being mischievious in asking my question and was not wearing my ICG hat at the time as I can see good and bad in both sides of the School Bill.Cllr Cadbury has stated a very good case indeed and I only asked the question with an open mind.

Paul Fisher ● 7278d

As head of a rival political party shouldn't you be telling us your views first rather than enquiring what Ann Keen thinks?

Andy Jones ● 7278d

PaulWhy do you think the Bill will have big (negative) implications for Hounslow?  Much of the proposed changes for schools apply to failing schools (we have none) or schools that are so "different" that they feel they want to break free and set themselves up as a Foundation (Trust) school.  Because of the close working relationships in Hounslow between schools, and between the borough and local schools, I don't detect any of our schools itching to go down this road.  Our schools have fantastic "value-added" and improvement scores, and serve the boroughs' children well - so we havn't been too worried about the Bill - particularly now that Local Authorities will be able to set up a new Community School, should the need arise.There are also good things in the Bill about Personalised learning, Behaviour strategies, 14-19 work, school food, and also Youth provision.Cllr Ruth CadburyExec Lead - Children and Life-long learningLB Hounslow

Ruth Cadbury ● 7278d

Sheep Sheerin'

The Pseudometer ● 7279d

"I never discuss with the MP how she will vote on any Bill in Parliament"Baa!

The Pseudometer ● 7279d

Its a well known fact that Mrs Keen never rebels against the Government but I thought that you would have had an idea thats all.Not quite sure why your leader does not confide in you as local Chairman though and thats not being sarcastic Alan, even if you choose as would be your personal choice not to divulge the details.Thanks for the response anyway,Paul

Paul Fisher ● 7279d

I dont know Paul. I never discuss with the MP how she will vote on any Bill in Parliament, it would not be approrite.

Alan Sheerins ● 7279d

U wont get a answer Paul I mean u r still waiting for the reply about her expenses

Simon Anderson ● 7279d