Forum Topic

Them & Us

Started this on another forum with a great feed back what do you think in Brentford?Why does a muslim protest about others saying things about their religion and not get charged but if I say something then it is Islamaphobic and the thought police are down on me like a ton of bricks. Is this goverment too weak to do anything about it, I have just watched the news on TV and Mr  Choudry made a vailed threat to the  non-muslims is anyone going to charge him with incitement????? I dont think so.

Helen Fogarth ● 6832d23 Comments

Having just watched Newsnight's coverage of Jews in Iran, including an interview with a Jewish member of the Iranian Parliament and a visit to a Jewish old people's home that included Christian and Muslim residents, I was reminded of the complex Muslim/Christian/Jewish societies that I encountered in Syria and Jordan in the 1990's. Admittedly, most of the Jews previously living there had been encouraged to emigrate to Israel. However, people made it clear they had lived side by side for hundreds of years.I have no illusions that conflict between the communities had not occurred at points in the past. But I do believe that people with different religious and world views can co-exist if we regard one another as people first and members of religious commmunities last.Maybe Newsnight has re-ignited my (perhaps erroneous) belief that inside us all is a sense of solidarity with our fellow members of the human race regardless of colour or creed etc.?

John Connelly ● 6828d

So you were referring to Muslims not Sikhs, Hindus. Christians etc? Why not be just be explicit about it?If some of them are bombing, maiming and terrorising us for our Government's policies then surely they are battering us with their political beliefs not their religious ones. People are strapping explosives to themselves in the tube are not aiming for converts, they primarily want foreign troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq.In many ways they are merely following through the logic of the rhetoric of the anti-war movement. If Bush and Blair really are waging an illegal war to secure oil supplies and install puppet regimes by butchering hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians as we are continually told then exerting political pressure on them by a campaign of terror in the West that would result in relatively few deaths makes perfect sense.The reason the UK seems to have a particularly bad problem with home grown terrorism doesn't appear to be because Muslims in general are unhappy or badly treated. The deluded young men who strap explosives to themselves on the tube have an irrational and simplistic view of the situtation in the Middle East but it isn't one they got from madrassas but from one side of the on-going debate in our secular society.

Justin Harris ● 6829d

I happen to think that anyone who believes that just because they don't agree with a Government's foreign policies gives then some sort of right to threaten, to bomb, maim, or terrorise people in this country in any way, is battering us with their beliefs. Over the years Governments, employers, Police, even David Beckham I shouldn't wonder, in fact anyone you can think of has probably got right up someone's nose with something they've done or said, you might have a rant at the T.V. or your nearest and dearest - even the cat,what you didn't do was go out and hurt anyone because of it. I couldn't give a toss who worships what or who but I do take a dim view of using "cultural background" as you put it to try and get away with unacceptable and unlawful behaviour. We are a mostly secular society who value our sense of humour and right to free speech, God (whichever one you choose) alone knows it's been hard bought so why should we allow anyone for whatever reason to browbeat us into silence for fear of being labelled racist, bigot, infidel, blasphemous etc. etc. I believe that most of us just want to live in peace and harmony and in a democracy, not lob bombs around directly something happens we don't like.

Vanessa Smith ● 6829d

"And the glue that should bind us together would be?"Respect for difference perhaps. Despite your protests that you are browbeaten by people from different cultures than yourself the fact is that they are minorities who have very little say in the way in which this country is run. Our culture is totally dominant not just in Government but in the media and schools. This is as it should be but I think we should recognise that there are dangers in too aggressively promoting what amounts to a programme of mono-culturalism. My Sikh friends would tell you that the people in their community who have assimilated and prospered in the UK are the ones who have retained the closest ties to their own culture.

Justin Harris ● 6830d

And the glue that should bind us together would be?

Keith Iddon ● 6830d

"Because many of us are trying to figure out these nuts who batter the rest of us with their opinions and who espouse one particular religion and maintain that THEIR particular God is the only one. "I don't think I've ever had any experience of anybody 'battering me with their opinions' about their faith. Where and when does this happen to you? Most people from faith communities that I know or come across are totally respectful of my agnosticism and never make any attempt to browbeat me. If anything I think that it is we in the Western secular world who batter people with our views through a media in which our way of thinking predominates. Your rather hostile dismissal of the beliefs of people of a different cultural background to yourself is a pretty mainstream point of view. If you talk to a Sikh about the play mentioned earlier they won't generally talk about blasphemy but the sense that it gave them that as a community they were increasingly under siege. I'm not talking about some illiterate hothead just over from India, I am talking about highly educated and Westernised professionals who feel angry that the only way their culture is ever portrayed by the media is in a negative way. They feel that the general thrust of Government policy is essentially saying - you are different to us and things can only get better if you become more like us. This country has made huge steps in eradicating racism based on the colour of a person's skin but underneath all the British politeness and so-called tolerance there remains a huge fear of difference within the majority white population. This country would be possibly be a safer more comfortable place to live if everyone had the same beliefs and nobody ever challenged our assumptions about how wonderful our society was. I think it is a better place in that we have lots of people from other cultures with different beliefs to ours who can sometimes shake us out of complacency.

Justin Harris ● 6830d

Yeah John,there are loads of laws that are not upheld in this country,like incitement to riot/murder etc.Seems if you are from the offensive and violent Islamic minority that want to terrorise non-believers it's ok to preach hatred and mayhem.It's ok to object to someone criticising your beliefs but you can not be allowed to threaten  the critics with violence and retribution and get away with it,no matter how offended you are.When 'The Life of Brian'was screened I can't remember any fundamentalist Christian sect threatening a holy war or fatwa equivalent toward the producers.Yes,there was a big hoo-ha about it and the bounds of free speech etc.but it was a healthy debate highlighting the strength of our frredom to object and discuss without fear of death etc.We are not simply talking about things being banned,we are talking about threats of death and violence being made and those threats not being followed up as criminal acts by the powers that be.

Keith Iddon ● 6830d

If only these people could realise how they come across sometimes.It's a bit like the 'My dad is bigger and stronger than your dad'taunt from the playground,only in this case it's'My imaginary friend(God/Allah)is more powerful and wiser than yours'

Keith Iddon ● 6830d

Because many of us are trying to figure out these nuts who batter the rest of us with their opinions and who espouse one particular religion and maintain that THEIR particular God is the only one. So in my view to request help from any deity under these circumstances seems rather incongruous to say the least.

Vanessa Smith ● 6830d

"I'd say God help us if it wasn't a contradiction"-------------------------------------------------Why is it a contradiction Vanessa?

Michael Fletcher ● 6831d

Would that be the Hook Hamza?

Helen Fogarth ● 6831d

Having said that did anyone see the programme Tony Robinson made in the U.S. "The Doomsday Code" CH 4 last Saturday? If you wanted nutcases then these were the real thing - completely barking - but most frightening of all were the connections they had in the American Government. The world seems to be full of lunatics with religious "beliefs" a hook to hang their barmy ideas on for a veneer of credibility........I'd say God help us if it wasn't a contradiction...................

Vanessa Smith ● 6831d

Well in a free society demonstration is a right so you can't stop people doing that even if you don't agree with them. The point that mainstream Sikhs were making was that the play was originally put on in a Council funded theatre so not only were they being asked to stomach what they felt was an unfair portrayal of them which wasn't counterbalanced elsewhere by positive portrayals, they were being asked to pay for the privilege. A few hotheads allowed the media to represent this issue as the Sikh community as being over sensitive and this now appears to be the accepted wisdom as it was brought up in this context. The reality is a bit more complex in my view.

Andy Jones ● 6831d

Still no reason to ban it and to demonstrate outside the theatre though.How many people would have seen the play. They gave it more publicity by thier actions. Wasn't it shown at the Royal Court Theatre in London in the end.

Neil Chippendale ● 6831d

Perhaps banning books in volatile countries like the Lebanon and Nigeria is a sensible precaution by the authorities rather than mere censorship. If you talk to someone in the Sikh community they will tell you that the anger against the play was not simply that it was critical but that there had never been any production or indeed TV series about Sikhism in this country before and therefore the first introduction to the faith was one which they regarded as sensationalist, inaccurate and unduly negative.

Andy Jones ● 6831d

Putting the Muslim objections to the Pope's comments in context, let's remember that we still have blasphemy laws in this country. The recent comedy film - The Da Vinci Code - was banned in Lebanon because of Catholic objections, banned in Nigeria because of Presbyterian objections, and banned elsewhere because of similar protests. Gibson's The Passion  of the Christ was opposed by Jews as being anti -semitic. (Was it banned in Israel?) Similarly, a year or two ago there were protests against a play in Birmingham that was deemed to be offensive to Sikhism.The problem seems to be that Believers, whatever their faith, object to anything that challenges their beliefs.

John Connelly ● 6831d

Well Jim,I wouldn't worry too much...we all loves ya mate!To all those Islamofascists out there(not the decent law abiding majority of Muslims)'Your fathers are hamsters and your mothers smell of elderberries...'

Keith Iddon ● 6831d

JimI had a look at that site very tame I thought just a load of to-ing and fro-ing (if thats a word) between a couple of idiots who have no proper dialog. As for not having many views from this site I din't think about people going from one to another silly me as I do it.

Helen Fogarth ● 6831d

http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk/DiscView.asp?mid=721&forum_id=2&http://tinyurl.com/p6h7xCopy and paste the shorter url!..and you'll see what THEY wrote about some of us before!

Jim Lawes ● 6831d

Interesting question Helen,rhetorical I suppose. Of course this government is too weak minded...that's been proven over loads of issues.The reaction from the Muslim world(the burning of churches and the tragic murder of the poor nun )have proven that the Pope was,in essence,right.To say to anyone that 'If you criticise me I will kill you and yours etc'is despotic and tyrannical to say the least.More christians are persecuted around the world that people from any other religion.All this stuff about moderate Muslims,well what does it mean?Are you a moderate if you don't go around blowing people up or threatening them?

Keith Iddon ● 6831d

Helen,I think most of us trip between each of the West london forums...you might be overdoing it?

Ann S. Allridge ● 6831d

Some of us have posted on W4 - however none of this is doing inter-faith relations any good at all, and our famous tolerance and sense of fair play is being stretched to the limit with what to many of us seems a gross over-reaction to the Pope's remarks. I think on balance I'm with Brian Reade in the "Mirror"  "Don't blame me, I'm C of E".

Vanessa Smith ● 6831d

We have debated these issues ..with others..several times before on the Chsiwck Forum..bravely..and finished up with our names on an East London Muslim website..being called all manner of nasty descriptions..just for making observations ..let alone criticisms.But I love to read well written messages on these difficult subjects..on the Forum..or in the National Press. It's a challenge to get one's thoughts expressed into words. have a try!Fraser..on W4 and Wandsworth..is always a good read.

Jim Lawes ● 6831d

111 hits over on W4, zero over here, maybe Brentford is being sensible and staying out of it, perhaps Jim knows the answer.

Colin Vaughan ● 6831d