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(An aside: One of the reasons only a limited number of people use this forum is that too often in the past the substance of the arguments has given way to discussing personalities, questioning motives and personal abuse.  It really does put people off.)1  House of Lords.  As you say there are people of many backgrounds in the Lords.  I will not defend the appointments system.  What I am asserting is that a system which takes one sect of one religion and reserves an exclusive number of places for that sect's nominees is giving that sect of that religion an undue influence in our legislative process to the extent that people who are not members of that sect of that religion are being downgraded as citizens.  Arguments about the relative lesser importance of the Lords seem to me to be irrelevant.  I am further asserting that any attempt to extend such a system to other religions would be to downgrade still further those citizens who are members of none of the groups.  I am not saying that there should be no Christians or Jews, or members of any other religions in either of our legislative chambers.  Of course there will be because they are spread throughout the population and they will be there for their other qualities.  I am saying there should not be places especially reserved for them.Or to put it another way.  Suppose that once upon a time the tall people were in control.  When they relinquished control they decreed that thereafter they, the 6' 2"s and over, could choose from among their own group twenty of their number to have specially reserved seats in the legislature.  Tall people would still be able to get in in all the same ways as everybody else, but these are to be additional seats because tall people are special.  Do I really need to spell out the rest of the arguments showing how this discriminates against the shorter people?.  Pick any group you like (or perhaps don't like) and substitute them in.  Is it acceptable?  And if the advantaged group is one that you feel positively or neutral towards today, try thinking about tomorrow.  It is fundamentally anti-democratic for any group to have a built-in extra weighting in the legislature.2  Schools.  I agree that a major explanation for the numbers of church schools is historical.  (It would take too much space here to go into the absurd process by which the state has almost entirely taken over their funding but still allows the churches to keep control.)  I have looked at some DfES statistics - primary schools only - for January 2000 and January 2006.  They support  your contention that there are now fewer church schools, but this is because, for demographic reasons, primary schools of all types are closing.  But the proportion of primary schools which are church schools has risen, albeit slightly.  Pupil numbers might be more interesting than school numbers but I haven't had a chance to look at those.  What will be concealed within the school totals is numbers closing and numbers opening.  The contention that there are no new church schools because it is so expensive is, however, wrong.  The churches (certainly the C of E and the RC) are very keen to open schools (or take over existing ones) where they are permitted to do so and they only have to produce 90% of the capital cost and almost none of the running costs.  I shall report back in a couple of weeks what has really been happening on the church school front.  Incidentally, just under two thirds of our primary schools are non-faith, not "an overwhelming majority".3  Employment law.  How very odd to think it is not relevant to me because I (you assume) would not want to work for a religious organisation.  The point here is that we have laws to, among other things, protect all individuals.  Are you not concerned to protect people other than yourself?  Or do you only want to bother legislating for the protections that you personally want to take advantage of?4  Since Sikhs and motor bikes have been mentioned by Dan Evans I shall add to my list.  I find it perfectly acceptable for Sikhs to make representations that a turban should be an acceptable substitute for a crash helmet.  A suggestion like that can go into the decision making process.  What isn't acceptable is the law as it now stands which says "a requirement imposed by regulations under this section shall not apply to any follower of the Sikh religion while he is wearing a turban" (Road Traffic Act 1988)In other words, you can have two identical looking people dressed identically and doing identical things but one is breaking the law and the other is not.  The only difference is their religion.  That is not equality before the law.

Tom Beaton ● 6799d

Tom,None of what you have said in any way suggest that you or I are second class citizens in our own country. It isn't rude to say a person's argument 'borders on the ridiculous' and having heard your rationale I'd go as far to withdraw the bit about bordering.The first plank of your argument that you are a second class citizen is that there are bishops in the House of Lords. This is plain silly. There are former civil servants in the House of Lords, quangocrats, business people, ex MPs and a whole host of people who do not exactly represent my background or personal interests. This does not make me or anyone else a second class citizen. The Lords powers are limited and they are there primarily to advise on legislation that comes out of the Commons and they can delay if necessary so a wide range of experience including that on moral issues is useful. I fail to see why you should object to the representatives of other religions also being given representation in the Lords. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe that there are any Sikh MPs currently in the House of Commons. So a small but significant part of our population goes unrepresented in Parliament. By ensuring that they and other religions have the opportunity to gain representation does not diminish your citizenship in any way, in fact I would argue it enhances it.I don't believe the number of religious schools in this country is growing significantly. We have lots of Church schools because the various denominations were running schools well before the state even thought about becoming involved in education. When the state took over the system the existing schools were integrated. It is now extremely expensive to set up a new school and most religions do not have enough money to do so anymore. Given the closure of CofE schools across the country I think you will find there has been a net reduction in the number of faith schools over the last decade or so. The new ones tend to be for non-Christian religions. Locally a Sikh and a Hindu school have been set up in recent years. Once again I find no basis whatsoever for your argument that the existence of such schools diminishes the value of your citizenship of this country. The overwhelming majority of places in our education system are in secular schools so we have a far greater choice than people who want to send their children to faith schools. The fact that we may choose not to does not mean that we should claim the right to tell them what to do.I don't know about the employment law but in that it would appear only to limit your opportunities to take employment with religious groups, something which you are unlikely ever to do, then it seems an arcane and not particularly relevant piece of legislation to bring up.It is preposterous for you to claim to be a second class citizen and I still think this represents the increasing move for people to want to portray themselves as victims of the system. Your argument seems to be that some people who's view you disagree with have some influence on our political system and some schools in the country teach an ethos you don't adhere to therefore depriving you of the influence on the running of our country that you would like. Most people would recognise that these are not features of a society that devalue the individual's citizenship but the positive aspect of a diverse and pluralistic society.

Mike Hardacre ● 6800d

1  I didn't intend to suggest that Nepal was a good comparison to use, I'm merely pointing out that there is an amazing diversity of states which have separation of religion and government.  You can probably prove anything if you choose your paradigm carefully enough.  Enough of France and Nepal.2  You say, rather rudely I thought, that my second paragraph is "bordering on the ridiculous" without saying why, and I don't know what you mean by "adopting a victim mentality".    You seem to be imputing all sorts of strange motives to me that I don't think I've got.  I don't want to type in an enormous list but 1) despite a quite radical change in the structure of the House of Lords the bishops are still there as of right, and there is a tendency to try to match them with representatives of other religions.  The sensible approach would have been to remove the bishops.  2) The number of religious schools is growing, largely because the government is encouraging them.  3) When the government (reluctantly) legislated to outlaw employment discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation it caved in to religious employers to give them exemptions (and looks set to do the same for the goods and services provisions in the Equality Act 2006).  3  It may be true that in this country religion is declining.  It does not follow, and indeed it does not appear to me to be true, that the influence of religions is declining.  These are two separate things.  I don't actually care whether people are more or less religious (or whether more or fewer people are religious) than hitherto.  What is important to me is that it is regarded as a private matter.  They should not have or expect to have, and should certainly not be given, a greater influence on the body politic than I have.Good afternoon.

Tom Beaton ● 6800d

Tom, I hardly think that Nepal is a good comparison to use. In France we have a geographically proximate country which is a liberal democracy that is similar to us in many ways. It seems like a good illustration to me of the dangers of assuming that the state knows best. The aims of the French constitution and approach to education are laudable but the results have been catastrophic.The second paragraph you write is bordering on the ridiculous. You seem to assume that as so many religious groups are adopting a victim mentality in their lobbying that the best response is to do likewise. I'm only nominally a Christian and do not see how therefore  I am becoming a second class citizen. It is quite clear to me that the influence of the CofE or religion in general is in decline and continues to decline. I would guess the majority of people in this country these days who are actively involved in religion are first or second generation immigrants who play little part in the establishment of this country. The indigineous Churches particularly the Anglican religion seem to dying a slow death. This is reflected in Government policy with religious groups having very little lobbying power - just look at Sunday trading for example. The main block to complete liberalisation is the unions.This would seem on the surface to justify changes to the constitution and the divorce of Church and State. However that is to ignore the key role the Queen plays in our constitution. If you were to design a state from scratch you would not have one in which the Head of State is the Head of the Church but ours has worked remarkably well over the centuries. I would say if it ain't broke don't fix it particularly in response to bleating from special interest groups who are motivated by self-interest rather than the good of the rest of society.

Mike Hardacre ● 6800d

John what you are advocating is essentially the French system. The riots in the banlieus continue but they have stopped hitting the headlines and France remains an extremely divided society. I think this should alert us to changing our own system which, on the whole, has been very successful. Whereas the French have a confidence in the State to shape their lives in their best interest we have a healthy suspicion of everything it seeks to do particularly in the field of education.One of the reasons we have avoided the division seen elsewhere in Europe is our constitution which retains a connection between Church and State but for which tolerance is an integral part, in many ways the guiding principle. This includes freedom of worship and the right of individuals to bring up their children as they see fit and not to some state mandated formula. Keith asks a very loaded question along the lines of 'when did you start beating your wife' and he clearly believes there is a problem with religious and political extremism in schools otherwise why ask the question. To me this is mystifying as I can't really think of any examples. Gone are the days when looney left Local Authorities tried to indoctrinate children with whatever daft idea they happened to be promoting such as banning 'Baa Baa Black Sheep'.The fact is that faith schools tend to be better in delivering a good education so it is strange that so much of the debate revolves around dismantling them. We really should be looking more closely at what makes them work so well. In any case the practical problems that a change to the system raises are so huge and the expense involved would be so great that, however much some people might wish to see them abolished it simply isn't going to happen.

Mike Hardacre ● 6800d