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Andrew Michael John Atkinson · 1/21/2007 5:42:00 PM

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Channel 4 Dispatches undercover

Massive discussions in the press, TV and radio, on Jade Goodys' outrageous bullying of Shilpa on BB! Hardly a mention of Channel 4s' undercover investigation, of the extremists in a Birminghams Green Lane mosque. I await with interest and concern to see what action (if any) is taken against these people, by the gutless PC politicians who queued up to complain about this woman, who is a complete nutter. I was particularly outraged about a remark made, concerning a British soldier who happened to have a muslim name, who died in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban. I am also disgusted about being referred to as a "kaffur" and their wish to destroy our democracy. If they don't like us, then I suggest they all go to Saudi, where I am sure they will be happier. If these people, who thankfully are only a minority of the muslim community, are not stopped, we will have a massive problem to deal with in the future. They are poisoning the minds of children, and politicians have got to act now to prevent another 7/7 or a 9/11.Our feet would not touch if we spouted the hatred that they did in this programme

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6762d70 Comments

So it's now 'racist' to describe someone as being 'Greek' or of 'German descent' is it?!Yes you are perfectly right, it is PC gone mad, had you not noticed some of the criticisms to my original post but I was using the language of the PC brigade.the man who posted this comment being one of them would, If I was to speak in a similar way about any ethnic minorities, he and others like him would have been all over me like a rash, and have indeed done so in the past.Do you think it appropriate, notwithstanding the PC issue, that an elected official, and an ex mayor at that should use this language to insult the monarch on a public forum? This is something that you should also have grave concerns about. He uses and abuses the democracy that he yearns for, to castigate everyone else, but when anyone else "steps out of line" (supposedly) watch out!

Account suspended ● 6560d

Was this not a racist comment, when you referred to the Queen as an "old bint of German Descent", and her husband a "Greek stud"So it's now 'racist' to describe someone as being 'Greek' or of 'German descent' is it?!Political correctness gone mad!

D Clifford ● 6561d

Did I not hear one of the preachers say "Homosexuals should be thrown off the top of a mountain, or "kill them". He said later in an interview, that this was "taken out of context"! Which begs the question; in what context did he mean it, and is it an acceptable comment to make in any context? I also think that the fact that the police, who allegedly have offered no evidence thus far to back up their complaint, are attempting a "bridge building exercise" with the muslim community!And yes I do have a prejudice, against any councillor who refers to the monarch in such a derogarory way;"As a fed up subject of a monarchy headed by an old bint of German descent partnered by her Greek stud, I long for the opportunity to achieve the status of people who live in countries where everyone is equal,(where is such a place?) and they are all citizens, and where things like an established church and discrimination against people who follow the "wrong" religion do not exist.Who else believes it is about time we lived in a proper democracy"? Was this not a racist comment, when you referred to the Queen as an "old bint of German Descent", and her husband a "Greek stud" What an example to set, as an elected council official.........is that acceptable whether you are anti royal or not, or is that your prejudice showing?

Account suspended ● 6561d

Ch4 deny that the tapes were edited to fit the story. It will be interesting to see if they can pull the unedited material out of the bag or not as the case may be.

Neil Chippendale ● 6563d

Police now claim this programme was manipulated by its producers in the same way as other recent documentaries. Are posters inclined to treat alleged misrepresentation of the monarch in the same way as alleged misrepresentation of muslim clerics? Or, do you support the media when the arguments fit in with personal prejudice?

John Connelly ● 6563d

Why doesn't it surprised me, but when you run out of arguments, it is easier to turn to insults! I have a life, which apparently is more fulfilled than yours.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6736d

Get a life!

Philip Walsh ● 6736d

I should return to planet zog if I was you.Did I suggest the you could not understand or comprehend the written word, you certainly have the ability to "rabbit" and see things that are not there. I have never suggested for one minute, anything about my army service being a guarantee (correct spelling by the way!) of my character (But this for your eyes only my caracter was "excellent") what on earth are you talking about "being kidnapped within this country and held without trial" I know of one who I would kidnap and get rid of from this country, is a certain Mr Abu Hamza (does he fit the "right" profile?) and some of his cohorts, who are quite happy to take the benefits of this country, and yet spew out his hatred of us, strange you never mention him (as a muslim) or the "fair way" he was treated by our "white christian" politicians and police, until we woke up and smelt the coffee,it's about time you did as well! I think a spell out on the square may be called for, to clear your head........but then again I don't think you could hack it!!!!.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6737d

Andrew watch that blood pressure it seems to be on the rise.The Krays doing National service is a fact not a snide remark and it was made in response to the comments about national service. The point being that just because someone has done national service it is not a guaranty of an individual’s good character and it's not.As for fairness under the law, when was the last time a BNP member and British Citizen was Kidnapped from within this Country forcibly removed from our shores and held without trail in breach of all international laws. If you commit a crime of racial hatred you should be punished and if you read my post correctly you would know I support that. However it seems to me that fairness is for our white Christian countrymen but not our Muslim ones, which was the main point of my augment, our double standards to world politics is part and parcel of where we are today. My post was in support of democracy and freedoms for us all, not just the ones who fit the 'right' profile. Did the rise of Hitler and the ever expanding scope for discrimination and ultimately genocide pass every one (including young Muslims) by or what?I learnt to read as a child and just kept on doing so for the next 40 odd years and have learned enough to compare my knowledge of the Krays through countless articles, TV and radio broadcast just like the majority of others (interested or not) to have gleamed quite enough.If you still can't find the 'superior attitude' the comment over my ability to comprehend the written word as a child underlines it nicely!

Philip Walsh ● 6737d

I have only responded to the somewhat superior attitude contained in postings. I have at least tried to clarify to whom my post was in reply to, If I have made any incirrect assumptions then I apologise.I was a child of the sixties an era at least as influential as the years of conscription, and resent the implication that only those engaged in national service know anything about anything and therefore are the only ones with worth while opinions.Point me in the direction where I or anyone else has stated or implied that we are the only ones who know "anything about anything" As regards the superior attitude remark I would point you to the thread where it was mentioned that the Krays did National Service, that may not come under the heading of "superior" but was certainly a snide remark, but no comment from you about it though! If you care to read again my original postings A) Dispatches undercover,I raised the question about what is acceptable in our society, when we are confronted with these vile opinions. Nick Griffin of the BNP was prosecuted and brought to trial as a result of a similar undercover programme, and my question (as a matter of fairness under the law) was, why prosecution for one and not the other) a reasonable question in a democratic country don't you think? My second posting about mobile phones, was simply as a piece of local information, I had several people telling me that I had got it wrong,even though I had checked it out with a police officer. One respondent even suggested that he would hope that I had "nice" neighbours? sounds like a nice chap. No comment from you again.If, as you say, you are a child of the sixties you must be quite a bright spark to have gleaned all that information while so young? Also isn,t it "superior" to say "I know as much as anyone about the Kays".........really?

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6738d

Here it is ...the response to the Channel Four programme by Dr. Bilal Philips

Jim Lawes ● 6738d

Sorry about the problem of opening the 2nd video before the 1st one has ended. A lesson learned! Here is Sarah’s posting of the URL for the original video.XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxAll the interesting URLs posted by Paul cannot seemingly be uploaded in the same way from Google Video.Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Jim Lawes ● 6738d

The Channel Four Dispatches video and the response.Firstly Sarah’s posting of the URL…XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxAll the interesting URLs posted by Paul cannot seemingly be uploaded in the same way.XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxAnyway here is the response to the Channel Four programme by Dr. Bilal Philips

Jim Lawes ● 6738d

Get to grips young man!! ;0) Had't you heard of Ledra Street, (murder mile) in Nicosia. During the later part of the emergency I had to accompany an officer down that street weekly..both of us with loaded guns..to go the Bank to draw money. There was no time for camera fun then!!My NS experiences were painless compared with many others at that time..and certainly so with those who had served in battlegrounds in earlier years. So..please... no belittling everybody's 2 years..it was a big shock for our systems. Those national serviceman who stayed in the UK and didn't get posted abroad..say Aldershot or Catterick ..may well have had a very tough disciplined regime to live and cope with. But those serving abroad were expose to some risks..to say the least!And no I won't be applying for my veterans medal from Mrs Ann Keen MP even though I seemingly qualify. Others are more deserving.I promise to crow less.!By the way whilst I was in Cyprus it was a shock to bump into several local people. Bob Dwyer the The Hot Six trombonist who I was at Strand School with....and a Charlie Derby and Dave Rodgers from Chiswick..both had been at Staveley School.By the way on YOUTUBE there is now another video worth seeing about the CH4 Dispatches programme. I'll try and post it.

Jim Lawes ● 6738d

JimThanks for sharing your memories of your NS days. Seeing the troops in Cyprus in shorts and the dreaded "putties" brought back memories of my days in Malaya during the emergency! My father was diagnosed with cancer while I was out there, and you can imagine the thoughts that were going through his mind at the time. He lost two brothers in WW1 one of whom was only 16 and one of 23. I will never stop crowing about my Dads family, all of his brothers served their country as well. I don't believe that I have crowed too much,(up until now) but sometimes my pride runs away with me. Yes I am aghast at the way this country has gone,and almost "afraid" to discuss it, judging by some of the comments posted here. I dont think that National Service would work today though!You though have certainly brightened my day.......Thanks for sharing your memories!

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6739d

Philip Walsh ● 6739d

Jean, my understanding was that all conscripts were given the choice to join the army, navy or RAF but I stand corrected if I am wrong. I take your point about the military experience. My grandfather was in the catering corp with the Eight Army and my grandmother's second husband drove a tank in the European campaigns after the Normandy landings. Both of them did not look back on their experiences with fondness and were careful to point out to me that being a soldier was rarely glorious.

Dan Evans ● 6739d

The words "National Service" on this thread have caught my eye.I wish to say that anyone who had no choice and were conscripted and taken away from their family and friends for 2 years to serve their country should be quiet rightly proud of their private life sacrifice. Maybe they shouldn't crow too much about it..but looking around our country today...they will perhaps be aghast what they observe and hear..as described in the opening messages of this thread.National Service was compulsory up till the middle of 1959 and so I experienced the semi-shock of that brown envelope arriving at my Chiswick home from the War Office..telling me to report for Service! I'd never been away from home before except a couple of short holidays.So 2 years uninterrupted in Cyprus and Libya was a shock for the system. No telephone facilities to speak to the folks at home for 2 years..and no nipping back to Blighty every 6 months.I'll open my photo album compiled whilst I did my time with others..we had all been taken away from our work friends at the Bank, mates at the local sports clubs..and closer friends and family. But it did us good!Here goes: .................................................Left,right,left,right,left,right..but we all put on weight!....................................................................................................”You're off to Cyprus..there's an Emergency on..you're going to be attached to the West Kent Regiment, then move on to the Royal Engineers in Nicosia...and then we're going to give a right ole tough posting with Devon and Dorset Regiment outside Limassol!!”.........................................................We lived in tents all the time...no luxuries..and on parade at 7am each morning!Then we went to Libya for a month. Here's my mate Geoff from the Ottery St Mary..who had been yanked out of his Bank job too..to do his 2 years.......................................................All the Army groups I served with were on the ball..and the Regiments were very proud of their accomplishments. Today their ex-soldiers will regularly crow of their Service in uniform..and with look at that Video you're talking about with dismay.Sadly, many British soldiers in Cyprus didn't make it home.

Jim Lawes ● 6739d

No my husband did not choose to join the army, he hated it and swore none of our sons would ever join

Jean Gilmore ● 6739d

PhilipYou have lost me completely. I think I will leave this thread now.........so byeeeeeeeeeeeee I'm off to the local nuthouse!

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6739d

I've reread my posts in this thread and remain at a loss to understand what prompted this attack from Philip Walsh. I even would say he was unfair on Andrew Atkinson which shows how over the top it was.I simply made the point that the armies involved in the Normandy invasion were mainly volunteers and therefore there is little direct parallel with National Servicemen. I acknowledge the points made by Andrew and Jean that there was an element of conscription at the time but this was not a conscript army. France's forces at the start of hostilities were over 5 million compared to less than 1 million in the UK. France was still expecting to fight World War One again and conscripted everybody. Initially Britain anticipated a massive demand for soldiers and all young men were required to do military training. In the event Britain only had an army of 1.4 million at the end of the war the vast majority of whom were not conscripts. Even those that were conscripted were often effectively volunteers. Conscription was introduced in WWI because of a shortage of manpower due to the military carnage. Conscription was introduced in WW2 ultimately as a way of managing existing manpower and to avoid the demanning of the industrial base which occured due to the high level of volunteering. Conscription in WW2 wasn't about getting canon fodder for the trenches but managing the workforce. Jean may say her husband did not choose to land in Normandy but he did choose to join the army for which we all should be very grateful.One point about the sacrifice made by the generation who fought and won the second world war is that they themselves had to forgo a significant amount of liberty and freedom during the course of the war. They would have understood the paradox that sometimes it is necessary to curtail freedom in order to defend it. The Government anti-terrorist measures such as detention of suspects for up to 90 days (with, it should be remembered, a regular review by a judge) seemed to me to be a proportionate response to the threat faced by this country currently.

Dan Evans ● 6739d

My husband landed on the Normandy beaches and he certainly wasnt given a choice!

Jean Gilmore ● 6739d

Andrew and Dan.Nobody is belittling the dead of the past or present wars and if you both were not quite so full of your own self importance you would have gathered that from my post. You can both congratulate yourselves as much as you like over you actions during war time, you may even be justified. On the other hand you like so many people conscripted into national service, may never have been anywhere near a war zone. This has been my experience of those that talk in praise of their selves and their experience of national service; most have been riding the wave of other people’s deeds. You obviously missed or ignored the part about my mother’s younger brother dying in WW2, I believe that was in Normandy.Yes I am too young to feel pompously self righteous over going to war or not during the time of national service but my parents being born in 1905 (Father) 1916 (Mother) were not and I am both aware and grateful of the sacrifices made on behalf of freedom. My original post was to do with the maintaining of these freedoms as opposed to giving them up and therefore belittling the sacrifices made by the war dead. Did either of you actuary serve in a war zone, or are you as I suspect simply 'train jumping' onto the sacrifice of others who did, just because you did National Service and feel the need to be self righteous towards those to young to have been conscripted and therefore unable to offer their experiences into the debate.

Philip Walsh ● 6739d

I was referring to the troops at the Normandy landings. The Americans and Canadians were not conscripted - the Canadians didn't introduce conscription until the following November. The main body of British forces were professional. Of those that weren't it is misleading to describe them as conscripts because everyone was naturally expect to do their bit for the war effort and they made a free choice to join the army. I think in trying to portray them as conscripts in an attempt at oneupmanship you are belittling their contribution and heroism.

Dan Evans ● 6740d

They weren't conscripted. They volunteered Wrong again.....I thought you knew it all? There was indeed conscription in both WW1 and WW2.I suggest that you get out your history books, read and digest them before trying to be clever. Even if they volunteered, they especially are entitled to "congratulate themselves", after all this Blair government does it all the time!!! For your further information, men who did not wish to join the services were sent down the coal mines and were known as the "Bevin Boys". The only people not conscripted were those in manufacturing, munitions and aircraft etc. And further more you could be directed to a job, unlike today, where you can sit on your backside and do bugger all. Finally, I dont believe you were born during or before the war, or else you would have known. I hope you may have learned something from this?

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6740d

"Do you think that the men who were conscripted in WW2,and fought on the beaches at Normandy can self congratulate themselves? "They weren't conscripted. They volunteered.

Dan Evans ● 6740d

Are you seriously suggesting that the National Serviceman who served their country, and some of whom gave their lives in Korea and Malaya and other theatres around the world, cannot use it as a form of self congratulation you must be a sad miserable *****. You are right, we could not opt or buy out, but we gave it our all, I saw some of them who were killed and attended their funerals. I doubt you know very much about the Krays, or for that matter the conditions that National Serviceman served under. Do you think that the men who were conscripted in WW2,and fought on the beaches at Normandy can self congratulate themselves? These men died to give you the freedoms you enjoy today....but From your comments I doubt you have given it a second thought.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6740d

Sorry I never read their biography, in fact I find it sad they got a publishing deal, seems to me it makes heroes out of animals. In prison or not they would have still been in an army prison and still doing national service. Its as I said before, its not like they had the choice to buy out or opt out is it and either way neither the time in barracks or the time in ‘military jails’ made them nicer people. However the point I was making was that having done National Service should not be used as a form of self congratulation, as it’s not like anyone conscripted had a choice is it!

Philip Walsh ● 6747d

Reading the Kray's biography they spent most of time in jail during National Service.

Neil Chippendale ● 6747d

"...and the Kray twins did National Service..."Only very briefly, I think you'll find!

Phil Andrews ● 6747d

Andrew, if I was being selective over Bloody Sunday its because its possibly the only day anyone in Britain knows of with regard to British Acts during a British occupation/brutal repression that lasted about 700 years. Some may say it continues to this day, at least the occupation part, even if the Catholics can now vote which was the simple right they marched for.My mother lost her youngest brother in WW2 and the Kray twins did National Service it didn't make them any nicer and like you they had no choice!

Philip Walsh ● 6747d

I respect democracy and my right to personal freedoms above all else.But not for me apparently? Free speech...Mark Twain said (I believe it was him)" I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life, your right to say it"? So no I am not selective in anything I have said.Only "mentioning "Bloody Sunday" and none other is not selective, are you sure? Michael you might want to shut up if your trying to chastise and preach to me on Northern Ireland as I know better than you do.My named is Andrew (just a minor point) don't you think that's a bit presumptive? exactly where did I preach to you about NI? Also refer to your remark:- "Oh and by the way no one died in the last Manchester bomb, it injured 210 people, just wanted to correct you on that".Oh I see! that makes it alright then? Birmingham pub? My referral to an undercover Channel4 programme which was the start of this thread, leads you to suggest:-"I see no difference to opinions that border on the BNP variety I am reading here and those of Mohammed El Bahkri etc. Its all the same prejudice and hate." Have I suggested killing anybody, because of their colour, sexual orientation,religion, race etc? I dont know where you got this from........ BNP? Examples please?

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6748d

Michael you might want to shut up if your trying to chastise and preach to me on Northern Ireland as I know better than you do. What I am saying is that you and your neo-con rantings are blind to one essential thing. HATE WORKS BOTH WAYS.It is hate and misunderstanding that is making impressionable young british muslims soft targets for religious loons. To use a Northern Ireland term "bomb fodder for gutless people." The hate that is spilled out on muslims and other minorities by sections of this country is a disgrace it is never justifiable. Its all about ignorance and hate. I see no difference to opinions that border on the BNP variety I am reading here and those of Mohammed El Bahkri etc. Its all the same prejudice and hate.So no I am not selective in anything I have said. I just see you spilling vitriol trying to justify a poisoned attitude that is part cause of the phenomena that is the young British radicalised muslim. I respect democracy and my right to personal freedoms above all else. But its ironic you bring it up when personal freedoms and democracy have not been respected in many countries that both Britian and Blair have interferred with since WW2. Oh and by the way no one died in the last Manchester bomb, it injured 210 people, just wanted to correct you on that.

Conal Stewart ● 6749d

What I would advise you and your mate Conal to do is to keep away from the underground trains for a while, or had you forgot that those people preaching their hatred in the mosque, radicalised the perpetrators who eventually blew up, killed and maimed, theirs (and yours) fellow human beings. How far do you want to go back in history....Do you remember the atrocities committed by the Germans, we have moved on, and they are now in NATO alongside us and the Americans.........remember that we and the Americans prevented the eradication of democracy by the nazi's which you and those radicalised young muslims now enjoy. As you seem to remember Bloody Sunday, did you condone the bombing and murder of the innocents in Manchester,the kneekappings,and the massacre in Omagh. You seem to be very selective in what you remember. Have you given a thought to this " How would the West,s economy surive without oil. You talk about sacrificing freedoms, I lost a 16 and 23 year old relatives in WW1. My father also served his country in both world wars, and indeed was gassed in ww1. Both me and my brother served in the army as National Serviceman, and yes like them, I would sacrifice my freedom in defence of our country. This country's population is near 30,000,000 (I believe!) and one million marching for whatever reason, cannot and should not, be justification for changing anything. In a democracy, it is only the ballot box that should do that)!!!!!!But I agree it should at least send a message to Prsident Blair.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6749d

Well said Paul. Andrew is sounding like Enoch Powell. Some people on this site need to learn lessons from terrorism on their own door step, i.e Northern Ireland and amend their attitudes.

Conal Stewart ● 6751d

It seems to me that the British of which I am one have forgotten who helped establish Ben lauden and co it was us and the Americans, we armed them to fight the Russians and then left them to die of starvation in war ravaged Afghanistan, no aid, no help for at least a decade whilst the Taliban grew stronger. What did Ben Lauden (not sure about the spelling) say to America after 9/11? It’s not just America that can send guided Missiles to a target. Have we all forgotten that prior to 9/11 two cruise missiles where used to attack two sovereign Countries, that many innocent people lost their lives in those attacks or that America’s justification for these attacks was that phones believed to have been used by Ben Louden were at these locations .Then we wonder why young Muslims are becoming radicalized. Does anyone remember Bloody Sunday and the effect it had on young Irish Catholics. Its about time we woke up and realized the truth its our leaders Blair and Bush who have done the most to radicalize the Muslim communities around the world, just look at the mess we have created in Iraq with our gun ho military aggression and it is our leaders who should be on trail for their gross incompetence that has coursed so much death and destruction. You can all say what you like about well meant actions but the truth lies in the oil under the Caspian sea, where the Chinese have a pipeline to and the Russians are building a pipeline to, the one the west does not (as yet) have a pipeline to. I want as much as any other British Citizen to have a life free from hatred and bombs. I like many others would like to see those hypocrites that live here with all the freedoms and benefits, yet still claim to wish to live under shariah law be handed a ticket and told to go live in a Country that practices it.As for sacrificing freedoms isn't that what it’s all about, our freedoms. Is it my freedoms we should sacrifice or are you willing to sacrifice yours? Perhaps it should be someone else’s (whoops there goes morality!)Who gains from the loss of freedoms such as the EU Human rights act, apart from the Big Brother version of state and government, have we all forgotten the original UN Human Rights Act on which the EU one is largely based was written by the British (although never ratified into British law). how differcult will it be to regain these freedoms, which some of you seem to be advocating giving up without so much as a whimper of protest. Wake up we have brought this on are selves a million people took to the streets in anti war demos, our government ignored them and now they ask us to throw away our freedoms. If you really want peace in our time tell Blair to go at the very least, and if you have any true sense of morality call for his arrest and prosecution for war crimes and maybe the Muslim world will stop seeing as hypocrites and enemies.As for big brother why watch it, its a S**t show full of self possessed toss pots at the best of times and Jade seems to have few African features herself, something which everyone seems to ignore in their clamor to call her a 'white' racist.Oh and the Thai bride sketch on little Britain is a p**s take of the man who ordered her and what he deservedly got for his money.

Philip Walsh ● 6751d

Andrew,When looked upon in isolation its easy to understand the fear these people's rantings can bring. However when you look at it under the microscope of Machiavellian "Problem-Reaction-Solution" and the wider geo-political scene it becomes less so.It's not difficult to see that those that wish to conquer the middle east and plunder its energy resources first need a good reason to do this. (remember Iraq and 45 minutes?) Allowing the unopposed creation, fermentation and expansion of an Islamic "enemy" both within and external to our shores helps guide public opinion in favour of such military expeditions.As the US, UK and Israel set their sights on a suicidal conflict with Iran look in close detail at the "trigger" event, god forbid, if it comes.Finally, don't believe these people can change our way of life, they couldn't even ferment Islamic revolutions in their homelands.I invite you again to watch this video. Adam Curtis's 3 part BBC documentary - "The Power Of Nightmares"http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1002626006461047517&q=power+of+nightmares

Paul Davis ● 6754d

Quite simple..............we are, you me and everyone who ignores it, and particularly politicians, I don't believe .anyone "benefits" from it except those who wish to undermine our way of life, and will adopt any means to achieve it. We need to have a sensible debate,about how it shoul be tackled, without the fear of being labelled racist. I have just heard on the news that young muslims are becoming more radicalised and with a desire to adopt shariah law. (I will emphasise that these are just a tiny minority of ordinary law abiding muslims.......but nevertheless still very dangerous, it doesn't take many to cause serious damage and death. Pussyfooting around and trying to ignore them, hoping they will change aint going to work, some freedoms will have to be sacrificed unfortunately.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6755d

You're right Andrew, they should not be allowed to spew hatred. But ask yourself, who benefits from them being allowed to do so? Who benefits from the old political tactic of divide and conquer? Who's allowing this creation of an enemy within?

Paul Davis ● 6755d

The police are waiting to interview the bullies from BB,Jade and her assorted "friends", no such undertaking from them I understand, are they about to do the same to the preachers of religious and homophobic hatred at the mosque in Birmingham.Or was that acceptable?

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6756d

Sorry Andrew.Well if a tunnel is too scary a metaphor for you then I suggest you think of it as a kind of yellow brick road.

Paul Davis ● 6759d

If you do watch this and begin travelling down the tunnel of cognitive dissonance, don't be afraid. You'll feel better once you come out!Andrew is my name.....just on the point of accuracy!!!I hate tunnels especially the "cognitive dissonance" ones, Is it on the piccadilly line"? If I do go down it (or through it), I would be afraid so I will pass on that offer thanks all the same, if there are any of these strange people who want to go to paradise down there I'm not too sure that I will come out! and have no desire to join them (I'm too young to die)

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6759d

Thankyou Michael, I shall do that.Now, for your benefit I highly recommend going through some of my previous posts and watching the videos I've linked. If you can't find them start here:http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250&q=9%2F11+press+for+truthIf you do watch this and begin travelling down the tunnel of cognitive dissonance, don't be afraid. You'll feel better once you come out!

Paul Davis ● 6759d

Now, having finally got through to you...watch out for anybody carrying a haversack and looking shifty on the underground or a bus...you have been warned!!!!!!!!

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6759d

What was the question again? Haha only kidding! ;-)Yes they are dangerous. Finally, you can breath a sigh of relief.

Paul Davis ● 6759d

Your 9/11 re-education begins here:http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250&q=9%2F11+press+for+truth

Paul Davis ● 6759d

What a list of accusations! Where do I start?Let's begin with what the Iranian president actually said:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#Translation_of_phrase_.22wiped_off_the_map.22******Translation of phrase "wiped off the map"Many news sources have presented one of Ahmadinejad's phrases in Persian as a statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map", an English idiom which means to cause a place to stop existing.Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, translates the Persian phrase as: "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian" and "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly:"[T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history."*****

Paul Davis ● 6759d

For god sake! Answer the bloody question man, surely it isn't that difficult. Glad to see you had a little chuckle. Yes you are indirectly involved in politics.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6760d

Who can condone people who preach violence and hatred? Aren't the security services meant to be monitoring them?Yes they were, but they had to consider the poor little sods "human rights", and the far left breathing down their necks.Well, from some of your comments, I dont think you will be first up the front to sign up. When the next bomb goes off as it surely will in London, or the next plane is hijacked lets hope you are not nearby. I think you have been brainwashed by the cynical left (does that make you a puppet?) As for Iran, have you any comment other than the nasty West are threatening them. Did you not hear their president (a nasty little character if ever I saw one)who denies the holocaust, wishes to blow Israel off of the face of the earth, this was not propoganda he was actually filmed and recorded saying it (didn't you hear him, or were you still reading chairman Maos' little red book, or maybe Karl Marx) And also don't forget, it was religious puppets who bombed the twin towers and also the underground, don't recall the public puppets bombing anyone though!

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6760d

Brilliant!Is the "war on terror" as black and white as we're told? NoIs there more to it than meets the eye? YesWill watching documentaries on national television tell you *ALL* you need to know? NoAm I involved in politics? Ha!Ha!Ha! No!No! and NO thrice times!

Paul Davis ● 6760d

Andrew,good luck in your search for a straight answer to straight question.These are rarely forthcoming from some quarters,smokescreens and various theories being the preferred method of response.A simple yes/no seems to be impossible for some to say,and it is usually those who are involved in some way in politics that have the most difficulty in uttering those syllables.

Keith Iddon ● 6760d

by the way Andrew. Do your innocents include the tens of thousands of Iraqis and the thousands of western servicemen and women who've lost their lives due to the lies spawned since 9/11?

Paul Davis ● 6760d

Really? Who can condone people who preach violence and hatred? Aren't the security services meant to be monitoring them? Oh yes, they were doing that before 7/7 weren't they?The brainwashed are always dangerous because ultimately they are puppets. This applies to religious militants and the general public alike.Fancy a war in Iran anyone? I'm sure some more propaganda will come along soon to convince you to. Either that or something far more sinister. I just hope those hawks out there will be the first to sign up.

Paul Davis ● 6760d

History tells us empires are eventually destroyed, mostly due to corruption and decadence rather than outside forces. Not a word about these monsters preaching their hatred, but still happy to enjoy the freedoms and tolerance that we fought for, but who now wish to kill the people of these Islands. I dont give a stuff about the past, we could debate this forever. My concern is for the innocents of 9/11 and 7/7 who have had their lives destroyed. I will ask for the last time "Do you consider that these men in Birmingham are dangerous", and would harm us if not aprehended?

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6760d

History tells us empires are eventually destroyed, mostly due to corruption and decadence rather than outside forces.

Paul Davis ● 6760d

oh Bravo! Bravo! Mr Atkinson, when are you going to go in to Politics! Your country needs you!

D Rambola ● 6760d

Scary stuff...remember: "As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood."Enoch Powell was much pilloried for that remark - and though a little out of context today - it bears some thought.

Ann S. Allridge ● 6760d

If you believe *everything* the mainstream media preaches (especially those from pro neo-con producers) you need to cast your information gathering net far wider. There have, are and will always be radical voices preaching death and hatred from various sectors of society.As for Bosnia. You may be surprised to find that British and American actually recruited radical Islamic fighters to form mujahadeen in Bosnia to fight the Serbs. One day they're dealing with the devil, the next day the devil bites them back. Michael Meacher MP reports on this in the link belowhttp://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9115,1566919,00.html"As the 2002 Dutch government report on Bosnia makes clear, the US provided a green light to groups on the state department list of terrorist organisations, including the Lebanese-based Hizbullah, to operate in Bosnia - an episode that calls into question the credibility of the subsequent "war on terror"."I refer you to one of the last articles written by the late Robin Cook entitled: "The struggle against terrorism cannot be won by military means"http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west."May I suggest you also watch Adam Curtis' 3 part documentary shown on BBC2 called "The Power Of Nightmares". It's about the politics of fear.http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7815944823333801032&q=power+of+nightmaresnothing is ever black and white as we're told.

Paul Davis ● 6761d

Sorry, I don't know the background.

Sarah Felstead ● 6761d

It was repeated on Teleport TV (Cable TV) up until today. The reason it has passed "everyone is that Goody is a much easier target, and the gutless brigade want to hold on to their cushy well paid jobs, and dont want to rock the boat by commenting or criticising. Hypocrites springs to mind!

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6761d

Actually … I was dipping in and out of LBC and heard somebody commenting about the site, on Carol McGiffin’s show. The caller was pretty upset that the ‘Dispatches undercover’ programme had passed ‘everyone’ by because of the Big Brother rumpus. Wonder if it will be repeated in full?

Sarah Felstead ● 6761d

Why am I not surprised at this answer to my posting. These men who were preaching their hatred are dangerous. Do me a favour, go on to the site below (Thanks to Sarah!)listen very carefully to what they are saying, and come back and give us the benefit of your opinion. You must have heard that the SAS are being posted to London from Hereford, and I can assure you it's not a day out to see the London Eye and other sights. Remember it only took 4 men (allegedly) to cause the carnage on London underground on 7/7 and that's all they need for a repeat attack. Finally was it OK to send our troops in to Bosnia, to halt the killing of Muslim men women and children, I personally agreed.........did you? Think about ithttp://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Channel+4+Dispatches+undercover&search=Search

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6761d

I think we should be more worried about our political leaders dragging us into future military conflicts. To date they're responsible for more British deaths than any terrorist attack.

Paul Davis ● 6761d

JimYou should not be scared to discuss this matter, you live in a democracy, and allegedly have "freedom of speech" enshrined in our constitution (the infamous Human Rights Act, that we hear so much about)These people come under our laws, that is what is happening here,getting their own way by being threatening and us being called infidels. I think the Borough Commander should also be speaking to me and the community I'm from, to quell my/our fears, although if past incidents have any bearing I very much doubt it will happen, we don't count for much anyway. As long as they call me infidel and not Kaffur, I dont give a stuff" I for one dont "fear to tread" If your name appears on a website, do the same thing yourself, thats fair isn't it?

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6762d

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Channel+4+Dispatches+undercover&search=SearchThanks for that link Sarah. How scary! It's a subject about which many of us fear to tread...less the Willian E Hughes of the local taliban starts firing rockets at us ..again.You'll recall that some of our names have already appeared on the website of some East End Muslim College..as being nasty infidels or whatever..so it may be better to stir the matter carefully!Hopefully our Borough Police Commander will be keeping watch over the local Mosques..indeed I believe he may well speak to them from time to time to quell their anxieties about any backlashes.

Jim Lawes ● 6762d

I agree with you comepletely Mr Atkinson, it would appear we live by two rules in this country. I am too disgusted by the way Jade behaved inthe BB House, however, why is it that the programme in you mentioned regarding Birminghams Green Lane mosque does'nt even get a headline on any news programmes or in any National Papers! I feel too that Great Britain is heading for massive problems in the future if this is not stopped now.

D Rambola ● 6762d

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Channel+4+Dispatches+undercover&search=Search

Sarah Felstead ● 6762d

Agreed...my point was thatit won't happen because of double standards.The joke is that most muslims,being peaceable and law abiding,would want these peolpe brought to book too,imho.

Keith Iddon ● 6762d

Keith I don't have a problem with "ridicule" although it is sometimes offensive, even in a comedy situation they dont wish to wipe us off the face of the earth as far as I recall! Nevertheless, what I have recently seen in this programme, is that these people are not only offensive and disgusting, they are downright bloody dangerous.Didn't we learn anything from 7/7? If we don't listen to the wake up call and stamp it out, we are in big trouble. I dont have any sympathy for the BNP and their appalling policies, but when they were exposed by undercover reporters for what they are, Nick Griffin and his cohorts faced prosection in court. Let the same justice system decide these unsavoury characters fate, and if guilty lock em' up and throw away the keys. I have no doubt the liberal brigade will have some disparaging remarks to make about my right to express an opinion......but you know what? sod em', my family's safety and welfare takes precedence in this situation.

w John Michael Atkinson ● 6762d

There are double standards all over the place nowadays,Andrew,like in'Little Britain'for one.I'm thinking particularly of the racist ridiculing of the Thai bride of that feckless berk characterised on the programme.They seem to be able to be offensive and cruel and get away with it because they are lovies and darlings and it's 'ironic'or some such crap...but when an empty headed fool(who happens to be white and British)vents half baked playground level racially offensive nonsense it is taken so seriously.Perhaps Tony Benn was right,the British working class are the'last colony of empire' as he puts it.I think what he means,and apologies Mr. Benn if I'm wrong,is that they are the last group of people left whom the government,establishment and aristocracy can oppress,humiliate,exploit and blame everything on.I know this is diverging from your thread and my apologies.

Keith Iddon ● 6762d