Forum Topic

Tory/ICG Cuts - Housing Need, Day Centre charges, CIP, and Watermans.

Council Meeting - 7.30 Tuesday 6th March at the Civic Centre.Well it looks as though the Tories have managed to pusuade the ICG to make cuts to front-line services (on top of the cuts already pushed through the previous 2 Council meetings; day centre escorts, Community Teachers, the Language services, the schools music service, increased parking charges etc).  None of the following proposals have been to Scrutiny, or for consultation to vulnerable users or their families - so they were not revealed by the Executive until Friday.The price of no increase in Council Tax?Well; Cut one or both of the ONLY two Tenancy Relation Posts, who provide legal advice to private Sector Tenants dealing with Landlord issues including eviction.Delete a post in Homeless Persons Unit – reducing capacity to help people who are, or about to be, HomelessDelete a Housing Grants officer post – helping disabled people get adaptations in their homesCharge £2 per day to all users of Day Care Centres (Old people currently pay £1, Disabled people pay nothing at present, unless they have lunch)Cut grant to Watermans by £60,000 (from total grant of £240,00).  May mean a double cut for Watermans as the Arts Council grant matches the Council Grant.Cut CIP Budget by £200,000, bound to affect Parks, leisure centres, or both.  etc etcViews please!Cllr Ruth Cadburyon behalf of the Labour Group of Councillors

Ruth Cadbury ● 6663d88 Comments

JustinThank you for your kind words.It is clearly not my place to be commenting on what another political group does or doesn't do, however I believe it would be easy to jump to conclusions based upon the fact that the Conservatives rarely post on this forum, or the indication by the Leader of the Council that he only intends to spend one full day each week working from the Civic Centre.Many politicians are wary about engaging through this kind of media because too often the objective of individual posters is to "trip" them rather than to engage them in genuine debate or to seek out information.  One only has to read through this thread to see this happening.  Even the most articulate politician will at one time or another say something which could be misinterpreted by somebody with malicious intent.  Many work on the principle that the less said, the less one exposes oneself to this particular risk.I know for a fact (because one kind soul admitted it to me during a period of quiet reflection) that the local Labour Group considers it a source of some amusement that I and certain others from within the ICG post on this forum, and others, so frequently.  A lot of information is obtained as to how we are thinking and what we are doing via this means.  We in the ICG are not politicians in the conventional sense and tend to be less well schooled in the dark arts of political manoeuvring than some of our detractors.  We wear our hearts on our sleeves, and where this results in us saying too much we feel this is a price worth paying in order to maintain the openness and honesty on which we pride ourselves.  We are less concerned about our "image" than conventional politicians tend to be, and less conscious than perhaps we should be of the "games" which are being played around us.John Connelly and Andrew Dakers post on this forum, but their contributions are less frequent and clearly more "measured".  This doesn't mean they are any less committed to their work than I am, simply that they do business slightly differently.  The same goes for the various Labour people who post here from time to time.With regard to the Leader of the Council, his announcement that he would only be working from the Civic Centre for one full day each week has clearly been misrepresented, sometimes innocently but often dishonestly.  Proportionately only a small amount of our work is actually done at the Civic Centre.  It would be nowhere close to the truth for anybody to suggest that Councillor Thompson only attends to his council duties one day each week.  There is casework, meetings with external bodies, site visits and all manner of other work which a member of the Executive undertakes.  And in any event (and don't tell him I told you this) as somebody who myself is at the Civic several times each week I can testify to the fact that Councillor Thompson is to found working away there a darned site more often than he lets on!Finally I feel I ought to clear up any misapprehension about any possible increases in councillor allowances being budgeted for "by the Tories".  In fact the provision which has been referred to was set aside by the previous Labour administration.  The implication that it was entered into the budget this year is therefore wholly incorrect, it simply remains there having been placed there by our predecessors.  Obviously somebody, somewhere, soon is going to have to grab the bull by the horns and decide what to do with it, and doubtless if and when that happens there will be a fuller debate to be had.  For my part I will be happy to debate it on this forum, although I will endeavour to take a leaf out of the politicians' books and respond to sensible questions only.

Phil Andrews ● 6648d

JustinFair point, and I will endeavour to answer it to the best of my ability.The provision for a significant increase in allowances, largely to councillors in senior positions, was made by the previous Labour administration.  As yet that provision has not been utilised but it is still there and it is fair to say that the matter must inevitably arise sooner or later.For many years the government has taken the view that councillors are inadequately remunerated, and in the case of councillors who hold Executive portfolios considerably so.  To help you make your own judgement on this I can tell you that backbench councillors currently receive around £9.5k per annum, ordinary Executive members £16k (including basic allowance), and the Leader of the Council £25k (again including basic allowance).  These are not precise figures as I don't have them to hand, but they are very close.  Currently the allowance awarded to the Leader of Hounslow Council is the lowest in London (the highest being £71k plus basic allowance, although the council in question operates on a different model), and that given to Executive members is the second lowest.  A panel commissioned by the government recently advised that the Leader of a local authority should receive similar remuneration to that of a backbench MP, and that Executive members should be paid something in the region of £41k, although this was a recommendation not an instruction and - significantly - no extra funding would be provided by central government to cover the cost of any such increases.There is a big debate to be had as to whether councillors should be remunerated more generously, or indeed at all.  When I first became a councillor in 1998 the allowance was in the region of £1.4k per annum.  Those, such as John Connelly and Vanessa Smith, who were councillors before this time will recall that once they didn't even receive this.There is a valid argument to be made that councillors ought to be volunteers, and that as such they should not be paid an allowance of any kind.  The down side of this is that people who need to make a living - younger people, poorer people - would then be deterred from standing for office and that councillors would as a result be in the main retired and well-heeled, and thereby unrepresentative of the community which they serve.It is also, in my personal opinion, unfair and unjustifiable that a backbench MP should receive a generous salary and outrageous perks while the Leader of a local authority, who must do at least as much work and in the case of Hounslow I would guess considerably more, is awarded less than he would get grilling Big Macs for forty hours each week.  Either people who hold political office should be paid for their time or they should not, but surely there is no reason for MPs and councillors to be treated differently?At the opposite end of the scale it would clearly be undesirable for councillors to be paid the kind of allowances which would encourage the more mercenary to partake in the process simply for personal gain.  Thus the introduction of "salaries" per se, in the sense of being wholly comparible to those which people working at a similar level in the private sector would enjoy, would be clearly undesirable.The issue has been further complicated by the introduction, by this government, of the Cabinet system which entrusts the majority of the council's work and decision-making to a small group of councillors, who are thus required to be effectively full-time.Therefore the question must be asked - should councillors be paid allowances at all and, if so, how much?Sadly the debate isn't helped by emotive references to "fat cats" and obscenely inflated allowances, which frankly is so far removed from the reality as to be ludicrous.  Neither is it helped by the David Hughes view that councillors from one political party should be paid but those from others should not, which is clearly even more ridiculous.I guess it really depends where you stand.  Speaking for myself, I receive more than eleven times what I received when I joined the council nine years ago.  However it could also be pointed out that I put in as many hours as senior officers over whom I have authority but who earn six times what I do.  I could also argue quite sincerely that my work as an Executive member costs me and my family some £40-50k per year in lost income because I don't have the time to pursue other work as a result of fulfilling my council duties.  This doesn't prevent me from being a councillor and portfolio holder because I feel motivated to do it, but it would certainly put a lot of people off who may have something useful to offer.What is patently unfair is that decisions relating to councillor pay are left in the hands of councillors.  It is unfair on us, because we cannot with the best will in the world take a completely detached view, and unfair on the people we serve and on those with competing claims for a share of what is a finite (and declining) pot of money.My view, for what it is worth, is that the decision as to whether to remunerate councillors more, or less, or the same, should be taken by a body whose members have no personal interest arising from that decision.  I also believe that if the government is going to make recommendations of this kind then it should be prepared to reimburse local authorities if and when they decide to adopt its recommendations, in whole or in part.Unfortunately neither I nor Hounslow Council has any jurisdiction to change the way in which these decisions are made, or how any resultant shortfall is covered.  This being the case the position which the Community Group has taken is that we should put the case, openly and objectively, to a residents' panel and that we should accept the findings of that panel whatever they may be.  I doubt whether everybody will agree with my conclusions (inasfar as I've actually reached any), but I hope the above will serve to inform sensible debate.

Phil Andrews ● 6660d

ConalI am not prepared to conduct debate in this tone.  There was no anger or disrespect towards you contained in my last posting and I would have hoped for the same courtesy from yourself.  If you feel the Tories are "riding (the ICG) like a pony" then I would suggest you study the recent history of the council at closer quarters and cease to source your information from postings by David Hughes, under whatever guise.  Frankly I expected more from a man of your obvious intelligence.I repeat once more, our agenda is participation.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Never has been anything else.  That is happening and I wouldn't recommend standing close to anybody, friend or foe, who tries to get in the way of it.Your comments demonstrate a woeful ignorance of the Community Group and of its objectives although I'm prepared to concede that in your case, unlike that of Councillor Cadbury, that ignorance is unintentional.  We could have worked equally well with a senior partner who wanted to raise the Council Tax by a couple of percentage points, or with one who wanted to cut it by a few percentage points.  Money has never been our god.  We place more importance on honour, dignity and self-respect.  We believe our community is entitled to this, and from the results of the last three local elections in Isleworth and the last one in Syon it would appear that the voters in these parts agree.  Maybe next time, like you say, they will change their minds - who knows?  Provided we remain true to ourselves and to our beliefs, we are prepared to take that chance.

Phil Andrews ● 6662d

I am not basing any opinion on what Ruth Cadbury says. I never have and I never will.  For you to suggest so is as offensive as she has been disingenuous to suggest I have some kind of onus to give a Liberal Democrat opinion on your party's coalition with the Tories and the cuts. How is it unfair for me to suggest that you take your partners to task?  If ICG felt important frontline services were at risk (I disagree with Cllr Cadbury that some of these matters she lists are frontline services)from Tory cuts then surely you as leader should have the backbone to threaten them with disolving the coalition?  You ultimately answer to the public not the Tories I should think.Regardless of what you say your mandate was in May 2006, I don't think I read anywhere in your party's literature that ending Labours 36 years should have priority over what is in public interest in terms of services. You were not elected as a junior party in a coalition and the Hounslow public didn't exactly want a dominant Tory Council just as it didn't want a Labour one.  Are you saying that your relationship with the Tories matters more above all else? The public who voted ICG, I expect, would want you to be a tempering force on them. I don't think you have done that to date and I think its fair to say so.You will also note that I have said I'm willing to wait for an outcome.  So could you please re-read what I wrote before?But hear this Mr Andrews.. I am far from impressed by your party's obvious weakness in restraining the Tory appetite for hashing this borough up in short order anymore than we needed the guts of four decades of Labour malaise.  For everything I have read of recent council activity is that they (the Tories)are riding you like a circus pony.  The bad thing for you is that I cannot possibly be the only one that thinks this. You could well find yourselves erased off the local political spectrum in three and half years time and no one would dare want you in any coalition if you don't look like you have some control over the larger party.Tell me how I can be happy that you and the Tories have managed to lose a star on the CPA scoring for culture so quick?  And tell me how this isn't related to a drop in standards in management and some guarantee that this isn't down to cuts? It reeks of cuts at all costs to me. A Council that cuts obsessively gets routed as well you have seen with the Tories in Richmond.

Conal Stewart ● 6662d

1)  If these saving proposed for tomorrow are "small beer" can someone explain how.  My reading of the ones I have expressed concern about would suggest otherwise, but I am prepared to be convinced;  What about the impact of withdrawing all legal support to Private Housing tenants, especially as many are now directed to that sector as they are not accepted as statutorily Homeless by the Homeless Persons Unit (which is itself to lose a staff member despite being under increased pressure).  What about the Housing grants officer who supports disabled people to get adaptations in their own home?I have spoken to a very distressed mother of a disabled man who is now going to have to find £10 per week from his income support to continue attending the day centre.  2)  The reason this last (and in my view worst) set of cuts are being made, is that the Right wing of the Tory group have "won over" the rest of their colleagues and the ICG, to go for a nil tax rate increase, the only Council to do this in Outer London.  4 boroughs in inner London are agreeing no CT increase (of which 1 is Labour, 1 is Lib Dem/NOC and 2 are Tory).  All have very different formula outcomes,  so more generous Government grants, and very significant parking incomes from day visitors, so are able to have few savings and no Tax increase.  Hounslow. like most outer London boroughs suffers from the formula, so has little leeway - although work we had started on core costs that would have helped next year's budget, was stopped by the Tories, and they are not going to be able to take advantage of it in their budget.Conclusion; if they weren't so obsessed with nil TC rise and went for a modest eg 2% or less, they wouldn't upset so many vulnerable people and users of front-line services.3)"The ICG came with a mandate and a brief to end New Labour control-freakery in our community and to open up the right of participation in community life to all local people irrespective of their political views or affiliations".The users and their families where not consulted on the day centre charges, nor, I believe on the £300,000 cut to the escorts on the Transport service.  We had considered increasing the charges for Day Centre users some years ago, but withdrew it following consultation and the response we received.  None of the package going up tomorrow night has had any consultation nor have members of the Budget & Performance Scrutiny Panel seen the proposals before (except I seem to remember, the disabled grants one which was opposed).4)  Conal - my question about the Lib Dems was not directed at you, it was a general question, with the hope there might be some discussion around this.  If I wanted to ask you personally a question, I would email you.  I believe this is a discussion forum not an excuse to have a personal row in public (well I may be unusual in this view - but a lot of non-posters feel the same way as me).5)  As the person who started the thread, I reserve the right to keep to the topic, so won't respond to the other points here.

Ruth Cadbury ● 6662d

"They could easily defend the community by disolving this partnership or am I wrong on that?"ConalThis comment would be fair had the ICG had more than one option available to it when it came to forming an Executive last year.The ICG came with a mandate and a brief to end New Labour control-freakery in our community and to open up the right of participation in community life to all local people irrespective of their political views or affiliations.  This was of course anathema to New Labour and thus we were left with two choices - a coalition with the Conservatives or a council run by the Chief Executive in which, having at last been given the chance to implement the changes we sought, we had then declined to take it.Although none of the savings which has been proposed has been considered lightly, I truly believe that they are small beer compared with the very deep cuts which had been proposed by the old Labour administration in previous years.  And yet they managed to increase the Council Tax above the rate of inflation as well as cutting into frontline services.This is why I believe that Ruth's new-found concern for the wider community to be so much hypocrisy.  It is all very well for her to try to corner the Lib Dems now, but if she really was concerned that the Conservative/ICG administration was going to make unacceptable cuts (and according to her post on this forum's sister site at W4 this was the very reason why Labour decided last May that it could not work with the ICG) she and her colleagues would have sought to work with the Lib Dems when it came to forming a new Executive.  Instead, as I have observed before, The Great Ones quickly decided that the general public which had had the temerity to reject them was not worthy of their continued service and thus went meekly into opposition with nary a whimper.I would urge you once again Conal to listen to the debate tomorrow night and then to make an informed judgement having heard all the arguments.  If you take the same view then as you do now then I will respect your opinion, but to form a view on the basis of Ruth's somewhat triumphalist posting appears to me to be a tad unfair.

Phil Andrews ● 6662d

Shouldn't you ask Andrew Dakers this question Ruth? preferably asking him on this very forum. I'd be interested too.  But I'm sure they can speak for themselves and unlike you I'm prepared to hear them answer rather than speculate.I do wonder what your point is in asking me this question is Ruth. I happen to vote Lib Dem almost on every occasion but I am not a member of the party since Menzies Campbell took over.  I wouldn't support any cuts on schools language service at all, but I do so on community language classes.  The latter has not been demonstrating good value for money in my own personal view and there was a very good article in the TES a few weeks ago about how commmunity language classes just don't deliver in general. I pay for my own Portuguese classes and take them in a place where I know I'm getting value for my money. I just want to see the money well spent rather than spending it for the sake of providing a service.Might I remind you Ruth that just because I have a voting inclination to the Lib Dems doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. Similarly, I wouldn't assume you agree with everything Tony dictates down to you as a mere Councillor. I just agree alot more with what they stand for more than what your party does locally.My point was that the CPA culture scoring for this borough has dropped by one star. As you know Ruth, culture CPA scores include a wide area including sport. The performance on sport and recreation in this borough is the weakest in the West London sub-region apart from Brent. That fact disgusts me. If the Tories/ICG have managed to lose a star in under a year on culture scoring where will we be by may 2010? I blame the ICG as junior partner for letting them get away with so much. They could easily defend the community by disolving this partnership or am I wrong on that?  I hope people remember the shocking early impact this coalition is having and that next time round they punish ICG. As for the Tories, anyone who didn't expect them to behave the way they are was clearly delusional in May 2006.

Conal Stewart ● 6662d