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Most Hated Family in the USA

Did anyone see this programme last night?I was sick to my stomach when i watched this family.They say they are doing the Lords work..more like the Devils work!I was shocked at the way they used there young Children to hold up banners that they did not understand and 1 7yr old boy was hit in the head by a plastic cup filled with water by a passing car.I wondered where are the Social Services when they are needed as those kids should off been removed from this families care.I wonder how long it will be before 1 of them are killed for doing this or 1 off there kids...LOUIS THEROUX - THE MOST HATED FAMILY IN AMERICASunday 01/04/07, BBC2There's perhaps been a feeling of late that Louis Theroux has just been treading the same old water for some time with his documentaries on the weirdness of the world. Where once Theroux would astonish the viewer with all manner of odd encounters, the most recent film on gambling in Las Vegas (which appeared following a long break from our screens) was fairly weak, insipid and unexciting stuff. Now, however, Theroux more than makes up for any failures with a more promising subject worthy of his examination.America breeds its fair share of loonies, but the Phelps family are something else. As odious as the white supremacists Theroux encountered in South Africa, and as out of touch with reality as the gun-totin' hillbillies from the wilds of the USA, here the documentary-makers finds himself as a guest of the Westboro Baptist Church and their appalling attitudes towards the world. These are people who picket the funerals of dead servicemen, upsetting mourning relatives. They parade the streets with home-made placards bearing messages such as "God Hates Fags", and "Thank God for 9/11". They don't like Jews because they "worship the rectum", and are intolerant of both the rest of society and any other religion, even going to the extent of being happy when a local rival church catches fire.Their banners condemn celebrities, from Liz Taylor to Princess Diana, to poor old Desmond Tutu - probably one of the most decent men on the planet. A store that sells vacuum cleaners from Sweden becomes a target simply because Sweden has done something to incur their wrath. Louis himself is seen as a sinner for having a child out of wedlock. Everybody is heading to hell, apart from the members of the church. Theirs is a twisted, perverted version of religion that is thankfully relatively contained within a small area of Kansas. The 70-odd members of the church are disliked by the rest of the local community and group themselves together in a large enclave of houses, where, presumably they feel some kind of safety in numbers.The church is officially led by the elderly Pastor Phelps. We don't meet him at first, with the documentary team preferring to let him retain an air of mystery so we will be more interested when he finally makes an appearance. Phelps' brainwashed daughter Shirley is the driving force and what a thoroughly unpleasant woman she is. She is the mother of 11 children, all of whom she's raising to hold the same views as herself. The family are like the worst characters you would ever meet in an episode of South Park, and it is frightening to think this kind of person exists. If you thought David Koresh's Branch Davidians at Waco were a peculiar bunch, they had nothing on this lot.One of the most upsetting aspects of the church is the way they bring up their children. Like all religious groups, the Phelps' need to pass on their beliefs to the next generation and it is saddening to see tiny kids spouting ideology which has been pumped into them. Theroux talks to a seven-year-old girl who clearly (and thankfully) does not know what she is saying. The church takes the children out with them on their pickets, and the poor kids become targets of the general public.The church is quite happy to put their own offspring into the firing line - in one case, quite literally, as a young lad is hit on the head by a cup full of drink hurled by a vexed motorist. Surprisingly though, the children attend a normal school and the young adults have normal jobs in the community. Not that they behave in any normal manner - they don't have friends from outside the church, merely acquaintances. Megan, a young woman, reveals that when she was in school none of the other children wanted anything to do with her, and it's easy to see that the latest generation of the congregation will probably suffer the same fate. The young can't have a normal life at all, with one scene showing a 21-year old has to telephone her mother to see if it is okay to go for a coffee with Theroux and the crew at a café.Not only content with filling the heads of their own children with rubbish, they are also attempting to spread their views across America as well as the world. It's revealed that the church spends around $200,000 a year on flights, just so they can picket funerals on the other side of the country. Added to this, they have a number of websites on which they broadcast sermons. These are run by Steve, an ex-documentary maker who fell in with the church after coming to make a film on them. He was somehow transformed from a normal liberal person, to a hateful member of the Phelps clan. Thankfully the same fate does not befall Theroux.Finally we do get to meet Pastor Phelps - an unpleasant old bigot. He refuses to answer Theroux's questions: "You're just too dumb - sorry". Phelps Snr can offer no logical or sensible argument to support the views he and his flock possess, and we learn little from him.As is the norm with a Louis Theroux documentary, we don't see any real change in the attitudes of the people we meet or much in the way of explanation. Try as he might, "scoffer and mocker" Theroux has no impact on them. They are never going to change their views. There is no clue given as to where this lot sprang from. No mention is made of how they were formed. A bit more historical context might have helped us to understand a little about the church and where their abhorrent views originate.The Westboro Baptist Church will be content forever to preach their messages of hate and be hated by everybody in turn. They simply don't care. For their own sakes, hopefully some more of the group will see fit to escape like the four of Pastor Phelps' daughters who left to join the civilized world. The Most Hated Family in America is fairly typical Theroux stuff, but is the most interesting documentary he has crafted in some time. Hopefully it will pave the way for a few more.

Simon Anderson ● 6631d20 Comments

Paid-up member of the "let's have another party, party" perhaps? Otherwise yes, hypocrisy of the highest order (but what should we expect from idealogues?)

Colin Murphy ● 6615d

As the role of Godparent is more of a tradition than an integral role of the Sacrament of Baptism there aren't really any set rules and what happens can vary parish to parish. One standard is that all children must have at least one Godparent who is a practising Catholic. A non-Catholic can participate but technically they are not a Godparent but they are 'bearing witness' to the event. All participating swear that they will do all they can to ensure the child is brought up and INSTRUCTED in the Catholic faith. It is hard to undersand how Vanessa Smith, who believes that such instruction is brainwashing, could have brought herself to give such a pledge.

Andy Jones ● 6616d

You are a bit behind the times - the Catholic Church changed the requirement for all Godparents to be Catholic donkey's years ago, my goddaughter is now married with children of her own and has also left the Church after they refused to marry her as she married a divorced man.You could not be more wrong I don't want everybody to think the same - what a boring world that would be, but neither do I want anyone elses beliefs shoved down my throat or children to be brainwashed into thinking their way is the right way. 'Schools are to educate, church to indoctrinate' as a delegate to the Teacher's Union conference put it, the NASUWT have come out strongly against Faith based schools, warning there are 100 Muslim schools waiting to join the state sector, and that it would be possible for Scientologists to follow suit, all entitled to funding from the Government - that means me and you the taxpayer. NASUWT's fear is that more of this will lead to greater segregation and conflict, and I would have thought they are the last things we need. One of the greatest things about this country is the freedom to worship your God in your way but I believe religion is best kept in the home, church, mosque or temple or synagogue, not in places of education.

Vanessa Smith ● 6622d

I was under the impression that to be a Godparent of a Catholic child you had to be a practising Catholic. You certainly have to take a vow to ensure that they are brought up in the faith which you clearly have no intention of honouring. I am very surprised that you were chosen for this role and can't believe that the parents take their religion particularly seriously.As for the oft repeated mantra that religion causes lots of problem in the world there are clearly certain areas where religion differences appear to exacerbate existing ethnic and political differences but no intelligent person would claim that religion is the sole root cause of conflict. Set against this you cannot ignore all the positives achieved by religious people and organisations of all faiths in terms of the relief of poverty and conflict resolution.Even if we can accept your view that religion does cause division in certain parts of the world, this claim cannot really be made for Brentford where people from all faiths and none seem to knock around together harmoniously. In fact I would argue that one of the interesting things about the last few years is the explosion of ecumenical and inter-faith contacts. Locally faith is not dividing people but bringing them together. I think where you are getting this wrong is that you are associating difference with division. You seem to envisage a society in which harmony is achieved by everyone thinking the same. This will never happen therefore you must resign yourself to a society in which harmony is based on respect for difference.

Mike Hardacre ● 6625d

Picking through Vanessa's rants there seem to several strands to her argument as to why we should close some of our best local schools at huge cost to the tax payer. I'll try and deal with them one by one.'Faith Schools divide communities' - There is precious little evidence for this aside from Vanessa's own abhorrence of people who are different to her. If she cared to read the OFSTED reports for schools such as Gumley and Gunnersbury you would see that they are highly praised for their commitment to diversity and the way in which they help children understand other cultures. Trevor Phillips, Chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, has praised faith schools, saying that in London they tend to be more diverse than normal state schools and that they play a hugely important role in fostering community harmony.It is usually at this point that someone will bring up Northern Ireland - always a person who has never been there. I find it infuriating when people claim that religion is responsible for the problems ignoring the fact that this country chose to exert power through one section of the community to the detriment of the other causing the divisions that have led to so much bloodshed. Across the border in the republic there is a faith based education system and no sectarian tension.'Faith schools pick the brightest to get results' - Anyone who has been through the system will know this is completely untrue. The academic attainment on entry for Gunnersbury is in exactly the same decile as Isleworth and Syon.'People chose faith schools because they are snobs' - once again this is laughable. The majority in local faith schools are first or second generation immigrants and Catholic schools as a whole tend to have a higher proportion of free school meals in general.'Taxpayers money shouldn't be spent in this way' - The children would have to be educated anyway so there is no net cost to the tax payer. If faith schools were to be closed the cost of replacing them would be huge.'People fake religion to get into faith schools' - Once again anyone who had any involvement with the local system would know this is laughable. Most people who go to schools like Gumley and Gunnersbury have been Catholics for generations and the Church and the community that surrounds it remains integral to their lives. I'm sure people do go to Mass more often and get more involved in the Parish to help their child's application but the demand for places locally is such that all Parish Priests would never give a positive reference to someone whose commitment was superficial.'Faith Schools brainwash children' - It is funny how when the state seeks to influence the minds of children to think in the way that it wants them to this is education and when parents try and do it, it is brainwashing. Any kids I have been associated with are totally immune to brainwashing and most children are blessed with enquring questioning minds. I went through the faith school system and came out of it sceptical and I stopped attending mass when I left home. As I gained a bit of maturity I realised the validity of much of what I was taught but it was my parents' example not the teachers' that was most important in this respect. 'Other countries get by without faith schools' - This discussion was originally about the odious Westboro Church which is the product of the same country that has brought us Waco, Scientology and most of the bizarre cults we have come across. The US has no state faith schools. Similarly France has a non-faith system but this has resulted in ghettoisation as the indiginous population move away from areas where ethnic minorities predominate. Trevor Phillip's point on this is that in this country, because the catchment area of faith schools is wider, it means that local communities can remain more diverse because people don't need to move house to go to the school they want. Our system which includes faith schools has delivered a successful multi-cultural society. The French system which is secular has delivered a divided society in which ethnic tension is continuing to rise.Vanessa Smith says that closing faith schools would be worth the billions it would cost if it meant a society free from bigots, hatred and division. The ironic thing is that the only apparent bigotry seems to be coming from her as she adopts ever more shrill untruths to attack people she doesn't like, the only hatred is evident in her anxiety to make people think the worst of those she clearly regards as her enemies and she is the only person fostering division. I love living here because there is so much diversity and so much respect and tolerance between different parts of our community with a general attitude of live and let live. This is possible because there are so few people like Vanessa Smith.

Andy Jones ● 6625d

Too late mate, both the schools I attended shut down years ago - and let's remember I am entitled to my view which incidentally is shared by a lot of other people. For the record two of my oldest and best friends are Catholic, one of whom is a regular churchgoer, in fact I am Godmother to one of their daughters, I also attend church, albeit infrequently. I have even spoken to one Vicar who also thought church schools were wrong! However, that does not influence my thinking, look around you and see just how many problems religion is causing in this world of ours, anything that divides us at a young age and labels people  cannot bode well for the future.

Vanessa Smith ● 6625d

Vanessa, I think the thing that most urgent needs to be done for community cohesion is to find out urgently where you were taught and close it down immediately. You are always so prejudiced and bile filled when it comes to the subject of religion that it is beyond parody that you would accuse our local schools of being divisive.I could have a scrap of sympathy if there was a grain of truth in what you have written but if you had any Catholic friends, which I suspect you don't, you would have been told the problem locally is not people pretending to be religious to get into schools like Gunnersbury or Gumley but people who are genuinely religious not getting in because there are too few places. With the massive influx of immigrants from Catholic countries, particularly Eastern Europe these schools are massively over-subscribed.My children won't be going to a faith school of any kind but among their class mates at the moment are children from families who are genuinely religious but failed to get into the school they wanted because even regular attendance at Church wasn't enough to get them admission. Amazingly enough their parents are kind decent people not hate-filled, hypocritical snobs as you would have us believe.The demand to close schools like Gumley, Gunnersbury and St. Marks seems mainly based on envy at their success rather than any desire for fairness. I wish the debate would centred more around what these schools are doing right rather than the John Prescott philosophy of thinking that it is bad if schools are good because everyone wants to go to them.

Dan Evans ● 6626d

I think it is one thing for parents to attempt to instill their beliefs in their offspring as they see fit, that seems to me to be a natural thing we all do, it is also my experience that they go their own sweet way as they get older! I think the apparent support for faith schools is rooted in snob value, people who think they are a cut above everyone else but can't afford private education see them as a good fall back position, I hurry to say this is not true of everyone, there are some who do believe that religion in education is important.

Vanessa Smith ● 6626d

Although I would be very much inclined to support a petition in favour of faith schools in general I would certainly not be signing this one. It confuses the issue of faith schools with the issue of teaching of evolution. No Anglican and Catholic state schools in this country teach creationism as it is not a belief propogated by either Church and I am pretty sure it is not taught in the non-Christian faith schools either. I understand it has been introduced into the curriculum of one or two schools in the north east by Reg Vardy who has funded the schools and thereby gained control of the curriculum but these schools are so-called city academies, not faith schools. Anyone expecting a literal interpretation of the Bible to be taught at any of our local faith schools would be sorely disappointed.

Mike Hardacre ● 6627d

Well you can vote as you think on this. The 10 Downing Street website has two petitions on the go at the moment: one for faith schools, and one against (although I have to say I doubt very much that No 10 takes any notice).http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/faithschools/#detailWe the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Abolish all faith schools and prohibit the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology in all UK schools.Faith schools remove the rights of children to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs. They also sanction ethnic segregation and create tension and divisiveness within society. Schools should be places where children are given a free education, not centres for indoctrination. Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact regardless of the funding status of a school. Abolishing faith schools will provide children with more freedom of choice and help to promote a fully multi-cultural, peaceful society.http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/forfaithschools/We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to continue the support for faith schools and to ensure that in all schools the teaching of traditional ‘faith’ views of origins is included alongside the more recent scientific ‘theories’ which many scientists ‘believe’.Faith schools help to ensure that children develop mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually and morally. As such faith schools ensure children are well placed to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs. Schools should be places where children are given a full education, not centres where the spiritual and moral is excluded. Evolution and other scientific theories should not be taught as fact but instead along side other ‘faith’ views of origins. Supporting faith schools will provide children with a fuller education, parents with the choice of such for their children and help to promote a fully multi-cultural and peaceful society.It currently stands as 16,501 for and 12,738 against

Kath Richardson ● 6627d

What I hope this would achieve would be to help children grow up accepting people for who they are rather than think of them as different because of what faith they profess. We are not a religious country yet we persist in this folly of separating students from the time they are small children on the grounds of belief, when the sole reason for school is education, I would extend this in to the private sector too. At the moment faith schools still get money from the public purse, yet are allowed to discriminate and pick and choose who they will take in. A lot of people who choose these schools move house, suddenly become pillars of the church, get Christened and so on solely to obtain what they see as a better education. If that isn't sheer hypocrisy then I don't know what is. It really doesn't require much brain to see that if all schools could pick and choose who they take then their results would be a whole lot different, but all children have a right to a decent education not just the brightest and the best, or the ones with hypocrites as parents. Many countries don't have schools based on faith and yet they manage to survive and possibly have higher church attendence than the U.K. Obviously the financial cost would have to be long term no-one could do this overnight, but I believe in the end it would be worth the benefits if it meant a society free from bigots and hate and division. I am appalled that a Labour Government has promoted this form of education, when they should be concentrating on the separation of Church and State, religious belief is a personal and private thing not something to brainwash children with.

Vanessa Smith ● 6627d

"I'd go further and ban all faith based schools"So let's imagine for just one horrible moment that you were given the power to implement your policy in the local area. The survival of Gunnersbury, St. Mark's, Gumley and the Green School and the Church primaries would largely depend on whether your ban extended to the private sector or not. If not I would guess that the Catholic Church would close one of their schools and then use the proceeds to endow the remaining two so that they could keep fees low enough to allow broad community access. The value of the sites would be sufficient to raise a substantial sum.If your ban extended to the private sector then I suspect the Churches would retain the sites for other purposes knowing from their experience of persecution that bigoted politicians eventually move onto another target.This would mean about 3500 children in the local area would need to be found another school. The available places in existing schools would not be sufficient. If your policy was national and not just local then there would be no available capacity in neighbouring boroughs. You would therefore need to buy about 8 large sites within the borough for new primary and secondary schools and build new facilities. How much would this cost? Lets say conservatively a billion. If that was funded out of local taxation then Council Tax would need to go up by several times. If it were a nationally funded policy the cost would be enough to require a significant increase in income tax.For all this expense you would have closed arguably the four best schools in the borough; disrupted the education of every child in the area (as the schools which survived your purge would have severe problems in assimilating all the new pupils); ended the careers of some of the best teachers who were motivated by a sense of vocation; made several of the largest immigrant communities in the borough feel alienated and hostile to your Government; polarised society between your supporters and the faith communities probably leading to heightened tension locally.Can you tell us what exactly would have been the postive things that you would have achieved that would have made this worthwhile?

Andy Jones ● 6628d

'I would prefer that no-one "mandate" the beliefs of children and that they should be left to make up their own minds free from either parental or state interference.'It is only natural that all parents would wish to pass their beliefs onto their children whether religious or otherwise. The idea that a law should be passed that would prevent you or I passing on beliefs to our children is horrific and would be totally impossible to implement. Religious faith isn't something that can be distilled from everyday life. For people who do have a belief it would impossible to explain almost any aspect of life to their children without reference to their faith. What are you proposing to do to people who disobey your law of which there would be millions? Take their children away from them and have them adopted by people who have similar beliefs to you or put them in prison perhaps?

Mike Hardacre ● 6628d

Hear, Hear, we should follow the example of other countries and not allow religion in schools at all except as an academic subject, in fact I'd go further and ban all faith based schools.

Vanessa Smith ● 6628d

Hi Mike,I wasn't recommending the idea that the state "mandate" the beliefs of children - far from it. I would prefer that no-one "mandate" the beliefs of children and that they should be left to make up their own minds free from either parental or state interference.Maybe my original post would have been better worded, "if it was universally illegal to PROMOTE religion of any kind with children until they were 18."

Frank Sykes ● 6629d

"I sometimes think the world would be a better and safer place if it was universally illegal to discuss religion of any kind with children until they were 18."This has been tried without much success in countries like Cambodia and North Korea. If you have children I'm surprised you don't recognise also that it is also a practical impossibility. The essential freedom of parents to bring children up to share their beliefs should not be compromised by aberrant examples such as these obnoxious people. They are the price to be paid for freedom. The alternative of the state mandating the beliefs of children against the wishes of parents is a far, far worse alternative.

Mike Hardacre ● 6630d

I sometimes think the world would be a better and safer place if it was universally illegal to discuss religion of any kind with children until they were 18. Then they could make their own minds up on a rational basis, rather than suffering indoctrination from their parents.

Frank Sykes ● 6630d

Bloody hell! Do you mean that this isn't it?

Vanessa Smith ● 6631d

Watch It Vanessa you will go to hell...LOL

Simon Anderson ● 6631d

Thank God these morons are in the minority, we should pity them in their ignorance.

Vanessa Smith ● 6631d