Forum Topic

I object to a planned Islamic development in Thornbury Road

There is a lovely red bricked Chapel Building at the south end of Thornbury Road in Isleworth.  I believe it comes within the Osterley and Spring Grove ward..an area that is supposed to be a bit posh and gentified..and a bit sensitive to inappropriate developements.Whilst it was a Chapel many many years ago, I remember since 1970 ish it being the business home of a very pleasant man called Mr Bill Bonner ..who, with his wife..ran a mailing company from there. But the place was always clean and tidy..and there was hardly a commercial vehicle in sight.During the past five years or so the building has been occupied by some mysterious Islamic organisation..who hold meeting during some evenings when the road becomes teeming with cars parking all over the place..and blackclad women running around as though the area has been invaded by a swarm of black ants.Now that is not a nice way to speak about a mass of people who have decided themselves to  settle in the/our area (I've been in this area for 35 years)...and I apologise for that...but these people have no regard for the immediate enviroment, dump their rubbish all over the place..never seem to think of recycling like me and you..and the idea that they should be thinking of extending the current building in all directions..gives me the wobblies!! It could double in size...and the brickwork and trimmings are unlikely to enhance the style of the area.If the current throng cannot find parking spaces in the small Victorian streets surrounding the chapel...most houses are without parking driveways too.... there is no way that an enlarged congregation will keep the roads clear either.  Remember..a major Fire Brigade Station is one street away.But I'm concerned about the litter and the debris..and the disregard for environmental cleanliness. The trough type gutter around the outside of the current building is clogged with rubbish and waste and has been for ages...and the theme of recycling or keeping the place tidy couldn't be further distant from their minds.Call me whatever you like..but I want to make a stand. Anyone interested?Pictures to follow..of course!

Jim Lawes ● 6983d123 Comments

"There are infact 788814 empty homes in England at this current moment in time, that does not include empty commercial buildings and undeclared empty residential properties. There are approximately 84,900 homeless 'households' in England.See, plenty of room for everyone. Even you and your 11 flatmates Robin. ;)"Stephanie you say 84,900 homeless BUT READ BELOW, I DONT SUPPOSE THIS INCLUDES THE 500,000-750,000 ESTIMATED "ILLEGALS" SO ROBIN WILL HAVE TO REMAIN WITH HIS 11 OTHER LITTLE FRIENDS FOR A WHILE.....WHERE DO YOU STORE YOUR MASSIVE ARCHIVES ROBIN?Britain’s 380,000 “hidden homeless”By Richard TylerThe charity Crisis estimates that some 380,000 people are without a home, almost equal to the population of Manchester. It projects that this figure could rise to one million by 2020 on present trends.In its report Hidden Homelessness: Britain’s Invisible City, Crisis emphasises, “There are far more Hidden Homeless people than is officially recognised and the problem has only been partially understood and only partly tackled.”These people are “hidden homeless” since they only manage to keep off the streets by staying in various forms of temporary accommodation. The charity estimates some 75,000 people stay in bed & breakfast lodgings, 10,000 are squatters, 220,000 share overcrowded accommodation with friends or family, with 70,000 being in a household only under sufferance. The rest are those at “imminent risk” of eviction. For many, such “temporary accommodation” is far from temporary, with some homeless people being shunted from one hostel or b&b establishment to another for several yearsSo the message from Robin (and by default "New Labour")is sod off if you are on the housing waiting list, Asylum seekers take priority. And you know perfectly well Robin, this includes many Asian and ethnic minorities as well. What are you going to tell them Robin?

Tony Stavides ● 6078d

"I have seen many pictures from Calais, which is why I was inspired to go there and march with thousands of people from all over the world against the capture and control of other human beings.http://www.phototheque.org/photo/28647.html""Depends on your definition of adequately housed, I'm quite happy with my current living arrangements. I was a squatter for 5 years until I became pregnant with my daughter"Could the reason for you being a squatter for 5 years,be answered by reading the 1st post above. the millions that have come in both legally and illegally have swamped the housing market, put a huge strain on the Health service, not to mention the education services. We have no idea how many illegals are here working in the black economy, yet the eco warriors cannot see the wood for the trees.The hordes waiting in France have passed through many safe countries, and I will ask you the same question as I asked Robin Taylor "Could it be our weather that is the attraction"? Do you not ask the question, why it is always men aged between 18-30,perhaps if they make it to here, the next thing is an application is made to bring in the family? Don't you have any sympathy for thos who were born and bred here, and those who have applied for asylum and immigrants who arrived legally. Strange sense of justice you eco's have!Were you working or on leave while demonstrating in Calais.Perhaps one of you lot will have something positive to say about our country. And wasn't it irresponsible to have a child when living in a squat!You also said:-I don't really want to engage in any more conversation with you, as I take absolutely no pleasure in it whatsoever and I can think of hundreds of other things I'd rather be doing (like rubbing salt into my eyes, drinking paint stripper.............My suggestion for youOr you might be Squatting in other peoples property, and working and contributing to the economy for example. instead of making a nuisance of yourself in Calais. Finally I do hope that squatters do not take a shine to your gaff while you are out........its possible.

Tony Stavides ● 6079d

I have reread my previous post a few times to ensure that I had quoted the author of asylum seeking darleks. I had, which is good. I'd hate to be guilty of plagiarism.For the first paragraph of your post regarding queries as to the content of the poem, I'll have to direct you to the authors website http://www.attilathestockbroker.com/ where you will find a link to email him your questions and 'helpful lyrical suggestions'.To save you the hassle of asking him about 9/11 and the war in Iraq however, I have included a section of his written opinion taken from the sleeve notes to his CD 'Live in Belfast'."The US and their European allies cynically encouraged the divisions which led to the breakup of the Yugoslav Federation and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. And, most relevant of all in the light of the current crisis, on the same principle 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' they cynically bankrolled the fundamentalists fighting the government of the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) between 1979 and 1992. They trained an army of terrorists who murdered intellectuals and teachers trying to bring literacy to the people, who planted bombs in railway stations, brutalised women and turned the PDPA's vision of a modern Afghanistan - technological progress, education, secularism, equality for women and social justice - into a medieval, fundamentalist, rubble strewn nightmare of misogyny and death. And when that vision (or 'carmewnism' to give it its US Government term) had finally been ground into the dust, the US walked away. Leaving that highly trained and massively funded band of terrorists firstly to fight among each other and destroy their country in the process, then for the most extreme of them to bite the unsuspecting hand that had fed them. Which, as we all know, led us to where we are today. The people behind the World Trade Centre bombing had been funded and trained in the latest terrorist techniques by the US government for over 10 years during their operations in Afghanistan. It's as simple as that."I have seen many pictures from Calais, which is why I was inspired to go there and march with thousands of people from all over the world against the capture and control of other human beings.http://www.phototheque.org/photo/28647.html"Will there ever be a time when we have to call a halt to it all, our  population is now 60,000,000 plus and birth rates at an all time high."The UN’s database shows that the UK is the fourth most densely populated (that's people to a square mile) country in Europe, behind Malta, Belgium and the Netherlands, and had been since 1950. If birth/death rates, immigration, and migration figures continue to follow the UN's population growth predictions in 2050 we will (wait for it.... drum roll....) STILL be Europe's fourth most densely populated country. So don't panic, stop hiding under that rock and put down the Daily Mail."Can I take it that you are adequately housed, and any children you may have are in a school of their choice."Depends on your definition of adequately housed, I'm quite happy with my current living arrangements. I was a squatter for 5 years until I became pregnant with my daughter, I made the decision that in my opinion squatting wasn't a secure enough environment to raise a young child in (the longest I've lived in one squat was a year, the general life span of a squat is about 3-6 months in my experience) and went on the council housing register where I was put in band C and had to bid on Locata, after spending alot of time in hostels and sleeping on sofas I was told by the council that I could spend up to 12 years bidding and so I decided to give up on it and I had to put my daughter in full time child care when she was 10 months old and work as a waitress to save money up to put down the deposit and up front rent on the privately rented flat I'm in now. My child is just about to start nursery and all the local nurseries and my first choice nurseries were oversubscribed due to 3 local nurseries closing down this year so I have to send her to one about half an hour away, not ideal but nothing to cry about. I wasn't really sure of the motive behind your question so I wasn't really sure what sort of answer you were looking for but I hope I've answered it adequately."but remember racism is not confined to the white British, as you appear to imply"Of course it isn't, Pardon me but where did I imply that? Interesting though that you feel anybody who isn't white British wouldn't be in a golf course or on a shop floor but would infact be strictly confined to a mosque..I don't really want to engage in any more conversation with you, as I take absolutely no pleasure in it whatsoever and I can think of hundreds of other things I'd rather be doing (like rubbing salt into my eyes, drinking paint stripper or watching jeremy kyle). I can however direct you to some very informative and enlightening books, websites and film media if you wish to learn more about immigration, other cultures and discussion on current social and ethical issues (things that may be slightly more truthful and slightly less like something you'd read on the back of a BNP leaflet.)

Stephanie Kitsune ● 6079d

One message, loud and clear.Golf course, shop floor or BNP:Smash bigotry and hate!Asylum seekers - welcome here.You racists: emigrate!I don't recall a mention of race, I think you are comfusing it with religion perhaps. When you mention bigotry and hate, do you include the morons who abused and insulted our brave homecoming troops, or the preachers of hate you must have heard of many..........not forgetting the many hundreds, if not thousands who want to blow us of the face of the earth. Have you forgotten 7/7 and 9/11? Our security people are doing a magnificent job, but don't rule out a repeat performance, and pray to your god that you are not around when another suicide bomber has another try.Perhaps Stephanie you may not have seen the pictures from Calais and those awaiting to get here in lorries illegally, perhaps you can advise us all if you believe that this can be sustained, with schools, housing, hospitals and GP,s at breaking point. Will there ever be a time when we have to call a halt to it all, our  population is now 60,000,000 plus and birth rates at an all time high. Will those poor sods on the housing waiting list, ever escape inadequate/unsuitable housing. Perhaps a councillor or even you Stephanie can let us have your solution(s)?.........Can I take it that you are adequately housed, and any children you may have are in a school of their choice. Just in case anyone is about to remind me.....yes we have some marvellous BEM doctors, nurses and ancillary staff, and a valuable job they all do for us. Yes you may gain brownie points with this kind of nonsense, but remember racism is not confined to the white British, as you appear to imply.A slight modification to your poem Stephanie (for the sake of accuaracy)One message, loud and clear.Golf course, shop floor,inside the mosques and BNP:Smash bigotry and hate!Asylum seekers - welcome here.You racists: emigrateYou don't have to stay here

Tony Stavides ● 6081d

AMJA - Wow.. What a banker..I could verbally rip his posts to shreds but I wouldn't know where to start..   Ok, I've been mustering up the energy to reply to this post all morning *deep breath*..This is probably going to come as a bit of a shock to some people (sit down, brace yourselves) but actually I'm inclined to agree with Robin in the sense that the initial post was somewhat racist (and before I get slammed with 'Islam is a religion not a race therefore it isn't racist' - in the United Kingdom the vast majority of Muslims are Asian, that is, those who trace their ancestry to the Indian Subcontinent. Specifically, there are large communities of ethnic Punjabis from Mirpur in Pakistan and Bangladeshis from Sylhet. There is a much sharper correspondence between race and religion, and the ethnic landscape is less fragmented as a few large groups account for the vast majority of Muslims. Anyway stop nitpicking, you knew what I meant.) however I don't think Jim wrote it with the intention of being deliberately racist or malicious. Like I said in a previous post to you, racism is bred out of ignorance, and I think as a species we naturally challenge anything which disrupts the social structure to which we're accustomed. That said I didn't like the message, and it wasn't the 'black ants' reference actually that bothered me (I believe Jim when he said it was just a poorly worded simile, we've all said things innocently before and it's come out sounding completely awful and I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt) it was actually all the 'mysterious Islamic organisation', 'these people', 'like me and you', 'I cannot admire them for their beauty' (that one REALLY annoyed me, more from a sexist angle though), 'abuse our treasured customs of courtesy and fair play', 'could have been Englishmen!!' (NOOOO, SURELY NOT? UNHEARD OF!), 'Point me in the direction of a local church that's kept in his unholy way' (show me other mosques kept this way, infact - http://ecclesmosque.org.uk/2009/07/29/eccles-mosques-community-clean-up-recreation-ground/), anyway it's not so much the specific things that were said but the way in which they were said, how the posts always came back to it being about the fact that the new occupiers were Muslims.The building was being kept poorly, and the owners should be ashamed of all that rubbish, but did anyone actually go and talk to them about it or did you all sit in snob hill (grand terraces of 100 years old houses, oh please.) moaning about how dirty and poorly illuminated and Muslim your new neighbours were?I didn't see though anywhere in the thread how Phil was condoning anything that Jim has said, infact he even said (quite rightly) that he didn't have to disassociate himself with Jim's remarks because they were Jim's remarks not his, and that he disagreed with Jim's post. In that post he pulled up both Jim and Alan for their actions, seemingly siding with neither. Phil's post on the other thread you bumped up completely hit the nail on the head in the second and third paragraph, you do lump everyone into the same category if they share one view point or seem friendly with each other which forever condemns them to be completely incapable of having a differing view point to somebody they may have had a shared opinion with in the past. If that's the case Robin then you must agree with each and every one of Ann Keen's unscrupulous parliamentary votes in the past (don't make me list them again, this post is long enough already and you know what they are.) I'd like to think that you didn't, but perhaps you will say you do just to ensure I can't use that example as a president to defend Phil.Incidentally I also completely agree with what Vanessa was saying in the other thread and the focus was pulled away from the good points she'd made and the sh*tty things Andrew had said and turned around to be something about negative political activities she'd engaged in which had nothing to do with the thread. Although don't forget Robin, you made an almost identical slur to the one Andrew made about 'middle class layabouts'. Perhaps you should think about that, if you're prepared to defend Vanessa and condemn Andrew for what was said in that thread.I am disappointed Phil that you would talk so cordially to people like AMJA and Tony Stavides. Personally I think they're vile in their opinions and verbal conduct. It doesn't reflect in any way my opinion of you (just like I wouldn't judge Robin on his choice of friends..) however if you ever say 'oh you'll like him, he's a really nice bloke' I don't think I'll be able to trust your judgement! ;)And Jim, I hope I don't offend you with my opinions of your post, my intentions were to point out things for your consideration not to be vindictive. You're a decent man from what I know of you (ill-informed in a few areas but decent) so I'm sure you'd rather I be honest when asked for my opinion than sycophantic.

Stephanie Kitsune ● 6083d

I have been challenged by Phil Andrews and by Tony Stavides to give examples of Phil siding with people who express bigoted views.Stephanie has also been asking about who AMJA is. He is a strong ally of Phil's. His postings on this thread give you a flavour of what AMJA's philosophy is.I'm sorry, but I cannot think of any other way of making the point so I've revived the entire thread. It is a long one, but for a taster, I would recommend that an observer views the following posts:Jim Lawes (14/04/07) 23:48AMJA (15/04/07) 12:46John Davies (15/04/07) 17:31Alan Sheerins (16/04/07) 20:16John Davies (27/04/07) 19:40John Davies (28/04/07) 10:20Alan Sheerins (30/04/07) 19:47Phil Andrews (30/04/07) 20:31The telling thing is that Phil Andrews enters the debate on the 28th of September by making an implied criticism of Labour Party Organiser Alan Sheerins - simply because Alan had tried to hold Jim Lawes to account for his inflammatory remarks about an area looking as though it has been "invaded by a swarm of black ants."When Alan politely asks Phil if he would like to distance himself from his donor Jim Lawes, Phil rounds on Alan, calling his a "miserable party".It is clear from this - IMHO - that Phil reserves his greatest contempt and hatred for the Labour Party, and not for the bigots of the right wing.On a previous thread in 2005, Phil had castigated Alan by saying "the only time I become angry with your strategy is when it is deliberately used to cause fear amongst minority communities" (the said "strategy" being one of allegedly highlighting Phil's far right background).But why would that necessarily cause "fear" among the minority ethnic communities? Further more, there's certainly no evidence from this thread here that Phil cares about the fear that may have been caused to members of the minority group that was being attacked by his colleague Jim Lawes - for Phil reserves his scorn for Jim's opponent (whilst, at the same time, very shrewdly stating that he does not agree with Jim's remarks). It's classic Phil Andrews.Phil, you asked for an example. I've tried to provide one.

Robin Taylor ● 6083d

“Jim did not make a derogatory comment about an individual muslim, but about a group of Muslims (swarm of ants etc). This is what deserve explanation."I was originally going to comment on that but, knowing I do go on a bit, thought I’d let it go. It seemed to me though that Jim was commenting on people in the road who happened to be swathed in black – the comment was on their behaviour, not faith or race. How the heck then is a comment on the behaviour of 15 or so women swathed in black racist or racially prejudiced? Seriously? I don’t get it. Are people really not allowed to comment on behaviour without being smeared?Reckless accusations of racism and prejudice do more harm than good. The people crying wolf always seem to get away with it, duck and weave, switch tack and fail to justify their comments when placed under scrutiny. It’d be funny if it weren’t so sad.-------Lastly, an appeal. This country has become a base for the most pernicious strains of Muslim behaviour and ideology. A well-financed and committed bunch of zealots is trying to hijack a faith and take control of the 2 million or so Muslims in this country. Like gangsters in a ghetto, they want to oppress, to muscle in and take over. They want to turn this faith into a backward, separate, regressive, oppressive death cult.Please don’t stand by and let it happen. The biggest challenge to their bigotry is free speech and common sense. Their best friends are the people who, in the name of multiculturalism, wash their hands and look away.Please don’t be afraid to speak out against the bearded imports hell-bent on denying us the privilege this country’s forebears fought and died for. Men didn’t die in trenches for this. Women didn’t throw themselves under royal race horses to be trussed up in black marquees.Challenge the do-gooding smears of professional apologists who really should know better – all they’re doing is fanning the flames that ache to consume them.My kids are in the firing line. It’s yours next.

Fraser Pearce ● 6967d

Hi PhilThank you for your comment. I firmly believe that Jims remarks needed taking to task. No others seemed very interested in doing this so i have persisted. I am surprised that you yourself have not commented on Jims remarks given your new role on the Council.Jim is one of your keenest supporters on this forum, I understand that he has campaigned for your Party.  Are you going to disassociate yourself from his remarks and not just disagree with him?1. What do you think the following comments from an earlier posting by Jim demonstrate?“Whilst the current occupants of the premises may be some hardcore Shia Muslim group who maybe think that local elders like me are "low life" and infidels,”2. Phil how do you feel about the following comments from the Chairman of the B&I Conservatives?“Alan,Being the most "senior" member of the local Conservative Party, I can assure you that I am not uncomfortable with Jim's words.Remember, Jim did apologize for his use of the phrase "black clad women" etc. I do not see what else he needs to justify.John DaviesChairman,Brentford & Isleworth Conservative Association.”3. Even more worrying is the following from Jim“Tonight, I was speaking with a very pleasant gentleman in Isleworth..and I thought from his accent that he might be American or Canadian. Imagine my surprise when he told me he was an Iraqi..and a Shia-Muslim too ..and he prayed 5 times a day..but then he drank wine etc etc. He was married to a Non Muslim.He was most genial. I quizzed him about the type of people currently occupying the Thornbury Road Chapel.The PR brigade would tell me off for repeating the things he said about them. But it's confirmed my suspicions.  I'll be meeting him again soon.”What suspicion was confirmed? has the officer been gossiping about the applicants to Jim? What do you think Phil?4. Do the cuts to from line services by the ICG/Tory Coalition mean that there are no enforcement officers to deal with the rubbish problems at the church?, what are the local Tory councillors doing about it?

Alan Sheerins ● 6967d

Alan is tiring. (Sp?)He's rarely contributes anything to these Forums..other than to wiggle around ..misinforming (HM Magazine)..being devious and vague..and trying to score a little point..if he can find one. He's a nice enough chap though..but his input for a major Brentfordian is disappointing.He even misrepresents my descriptive words.I SAID:"and blackclad women running around as though the area has been invaded by a swarm of black ants"Well that was a truthful grand picture created in my mind as these dark images raced across the road in front of me...at 8pm one evening. (not exactly highway code adherant was it?) YOU SAID "Jim did not make a derogatory comment about an individual muslim, but about a group of Muslims (swarm of ants etc). This is what deserve explanation."I was referring to a group (of 15?) black clad women.It doesn't need explanation at all. It may have been an unfortunate use of words..for which I apologise.  Why you should be asking others if they concur, or share my thoughts..is only a petty point scoring initiative on your part.    And certainly, in my view, the description wasn't unlawful...and I'm quite prepared to go to Court to answer charges!WHAT WAS UNLAWFUL:  was your activity at the Electoral Count at the Civic Centre, at the time of the Osterley and Spring Grove bye-election.Even though the explanatory leaflets we were all given said that we could be liable to a fine of £5000 or 6 months in jail..for using a mobile phone in the Counting Room and especially if anyone conveyed any information to anyone outside the room or building...you did just that and got away with it!!As a Counting Agent you were priviledged to be able to look over the shoulders of the staff opening the folded ballot papers,observing where the crosses had been put..and watch the papers being counted and bundled in 25's....before the sortation by votes had taken place.Your mobile phone rang. You hurried to the edge of the room to take the call..and in answer to a question that must have been asked you ..I clearly heard you say "It looks like the Conservatives have it"In my book ..with all the regulations around us..you broke the rules. Yes,of course I made a formal complaint to the Borough Returning Officer...twice. You could actually break rules at the Civic Centre in the old days..and seemingly get away with it.Your "I'll trip you up" type questions on this thread.. perhaps reflect on the fact that your local Party has lost it's way...and is desperate for some kind of brownie point.Have you answered any of Fraser's questions..or have they bowled you out!

Jim Lawes ● 6967d

This is typical of "New labour" members and supporters all over,their policy on ethnic matters is simple,when an ethnic group says "Jump" ,they ask "How High",when the core of the traditional labour movement ,IE, the "White working class" majority,say anything they are derided and mocked and told where to go in no uncertain terms,this is more than just a local issue,it is nationwide,I appreciate this thread was started over a planning issue,but for some communities, every victory however small....,and as for racism ,i wonder if mr sheerins et al have had the courage to question such matters as honour killings etc where the victim usually female have met their demise for having or suspected of having relationships outside thier race and faith or refusing an arranged marriage .,and of course our homegrown suicide bomber, hounslow is no stranger to both,also on the comment of dehumanising woman ,well have a little look at saudi,pakistan,etc,and lately the re-emergence of the hard liners in iran.Closer to home the dehumanising of woman is ever more present when a muslim cleric described woman as being deficient even is she has a Phd,there have been some brave souls among the muslim community who have risked life and limb to go undercover and expose this in our society,and we have seen it on national television,and heard them say so,we have heard imams instruct those who are in positions of power, to do whatever damage they can to the "Dirty Kuffar",by which they mean British society,I wonder how many hard line wahabbists or other global islamists we have employed in local govt etc in the name of community relations who practice this on a daily basis ,knowing that the cowed pc brigade will do nothing ,its time to oust the "Bliarites",and restore the traditional labour movement back to what its principles are ,and that is justice and equality for all.

Richard Meier ● 6969d

Hi Alan – thanks for responding.“Tell me about white muslims have you been a victim of Islamophobia?”Yes, I believe so – 100% of the time from fellow Muslims. The typical one is ‘If you’re a Muslim, why don’t you have a Muslim name?’  - apparently God prefers Arab names. I have also been told many times I should force my wife cover up.Two serious things stick out though – that my Christian nephews (6 and 4) will go to hell, where God will pour boiling liquid lead into their eyes and ears as punishment. Apparently my boys shouldn’t mix with their cousins. I was also threatened by three men in a London mosque and accused of working for the government.Strictly speaking though, I imagine none of this prejudice was because I’m Muslim. It was more likely due to the perception I’m the wrong kind of Muslim.-------“Surely any community centre will have an effect on the wider local community, (usually benefical in my view). What difference does it make which community uses it?”Generally speaking, it does make a difference if the community feel they’re superior or inferior to the rest of the community. This can lead to the conscious (or unconscious) decision to stay separate. Last January I was invited to a Sudanese Islamic community centre in Berlin – so too were the non-Muslims in the area. I don’t think this feeling of inclusion - of being connected to the wider community - is as strong over here.  Looking specifically at this community centre, the people using it (or perhaps those running it) don’t seem to show much consideration for the environment or fellow residents in the area.

Fraser Pearce ● 6969d

I'm grateful for the supportive messages on this thread, and also take on board the observations of others.Speaking about such matters is like walking on eggshells. As I mentioned in an early message, to respond to Alan competantly and with purpose I need to be more knowledgeable on racist and multicultural matters..and be an altogether better debater.  It's a great pity that I'm not properly qualified to speak on these issues because there is so much happpening in this end of the London Borough of Hounslow that requires comment and attention.  Lucky the our Police Chief can write a book "Not one of us" ..but then he's a PhD and a legal beaver..and thus can write with confidence!That's why I enjoy reading the writings of eloquent journalists in the national press...journalists who manage somehow to tread between the delicate issues. They sometimes manage to hammer the nail bang straight. We're not talking of Daily Mail journalists...but the top papers. Oh to be really bright,fluent,knowledgeable and wise on these religious, cultural, racial, multiracial, moral and legal matters..and to be able to speak all the relevant languages.That's why it was an important and pleasing event when I saw Fraser's name listed as a new messenger. Fraser Pearce, a most talented and knowledgeable debater His postings on our local community forums over the years have been accompanied by what I would call staggering insight into these delicate issues..and his exchanges previously on W4.com and on the Wandsworth Forum were very creditable indeed.His knowledge and communication skills on these matters is..in my view..tops and I'm pleased that he has bailed me out a little!

Jim Lawes ● 6971d

If the ladies in question had been swarming across Thornbury Road from their cars..dressed in white gowns and maybe a dash of colour...I may have described them all as a flotilla of colourful butterflies.But they weren't. They were dressed top to toe in black and that came to me as a shock.Whilst the current occupants of the premises may be some hardcore Shia Muslim group who maybe think that local elders like me are "low life" and infidels, I understand your observations that the planning application will be considered purely on its merit.As I mentioned before this elegant Chapel has been there for nearly 100 years.  The current occupants seem to have no respect for the local environment...and seem to maintain the  premises..from the outside... as an eyesore.Efforts to recycle anything? You must be joking? (Why do I bother to take mine..at cost..to the Tesco Recycling Centre.---------------------------------------------------------Months and months of rubbish lay untouched.---------------------------------------------------------The teaching of strict scriptures inside the premises..seems incompatible with the ugly scenes outside.  Flowers in window boxes? JL you're joking?--------------------------------------------------------The house next door to the Chapel is also owned by the same people I believe. This once elegant house owned by Mr Bill Bonner of Harpers Publicity (who used to occupy the Chapel) looks a sorry sight too!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------We've mentioned traffic chaos, the Fire Station in the next road, and that any expansion of these premises by the current occupiers will only multiply the environmental headache in our Ward!As the Public Notice only appeared in the Hounslow Chronicle on 19th April, I'm advised that there's still another 2 weeks for representations to be made.

Jim Lawes ● 6971d

“They [Hamza and Bakri] are both dangerous bigots, and i understand have both been dealt with by the courts and due process of law.”- Years after they should’ve been, thanks to double standards and a cowardly, hands off (no Hamza pun intended), PC approach. -------“How do you think people should be vetted before they enter the UK?”- How about checking whether they had criminal records in the country they were fleeing or checking for Islamist credentials, travel itineraries and other threat multipliers?-------“What questions about their personal political and religious views should be asked?”- How about, ‘Why are you wanted for extradition to your own country?’ or ‘Do you support the notion of violent jihad?’ or 'Will you abide by the rule of British law?' or ‘What were you doing that made you lose your eye and hand?’ or ‘Did you have a pleasant stay in Afghanistan?’ or 'What are your plans for work while in the UK?' or 'Who will be paying for your family while you preach in the UK?' or 'Who will pay for your family in the UK during your 6 month family visit to Afghanistan/Pakistan/Egypt/Syria/etc.?'.-------“How about British citizens who want to destroy the state, how would you find out who they are, what would you do with them?”- Presumably via good intelligence, effective policing and a lack or political interference (see above). That done, stick ‘em inside and keep them away from people with the same views while staying at Her Majesty’s pleasure.

Fraser Pearce ● 6972d

Mr SheerinsYou have obviously misunderstood my comment.What do you call them ....Saints! But then again I suppose that's OK is it?I was actually asking if this is what might be YOUR opinion of them.They are both dangerous bigots, and i understand have both been dealt with by the courts and due process of law.Do you realise that this might be "racist"?As regards Hamza being dealt with by the courts, this happened after a public outcry that went on for years, god knows what damage he had done by indoctrinating  the young Muslims both inside and later outside the mosque. Did you ever observe any arrests at the time while he was preaching his hatred and abuse. No you didn't.......Regarding your voting preference. "I will be voting Labour myself"My comment would be "You must be a devil for punishment"!They certainly need every vote that they can get! but not mine I'm afraid, nor many pensioners and people particularly women who have been denied medication. While I think of it what do you think of the fact that the elderly have to sell their homes to get care, when they have worked and paid taxes and Insurance most of their lives. Your justification for that?This remark below. Given the context in which we are having this conversation, do you feel that the people attending the mosque in Osterley may be a threat to the British way of life or our security?Who knows? Who would have thought that Finsbury and    Greenlane mosques would be shielding people who wished to harm us. I don't recall any other places of worship who were that way inclined.........do you?You asked for my voting preferences!Who will you be voting for Labour? Tory?, Lib Dem? NF? BNP? others? I could use the rather hackneyed phrase "that's a matter between me and the ballot box" but to be honest, after witnessing the shennanigans of most political parties, I don't encourage them. They are all full of promises, until they are elected, and then somehow they disappear from view.Finally, and on reflection I might just vote for the Raving Loony Party, at least I will know what I'm likely to get from them!

Account suspended ● 6973d

Mr SheerinsAre you really on the same planet as moi? Yes of course there are many other places that one could complain about, this place happens to be in Jim's area. Are you reading the same posting as me? He apologised for one particular remark, what do you want him to do commit Harri Kari?Why do YOU continually avoid answering direct questions, particularly about Hamza and his other equally hate filled cohorts, when they preached hatred and racism with impunity, but the gutless wonders did nothing, no arrest at the time, like the others who I have mentioned before.......Why not? Is there a law to prevent this or not? Don't you think a comment from you, as a matter of balance, would be appropriate, as you seem to be very determined to antagonise and falsely accuse Jim. Do you not realise how damaging these stupid accusations can be?Jim has explained his concerns, and APOLOGISED for one particular remark, are you unable to grasp that? I believe that is you and your ilk who see the issue of racism as only perpetrated by the indigenous community. Have you not realised that this may be the reason that some "New Labour" councillors (whatever that means) got their ar**s kicked out last year! Mentioning Muslims is not racist is it, so how do you interpret his comments as racist, explanation please? Finally when you are talking about credibility, perhaps you may get a little if YOU give YOUR opinion on the extremists who fuel not only religious hatred but racism in the process, or does this not cause concern to you? I am interested in your views.

Account suspended ● 6976d

Mr SheerinFirst of all, it's so generous of you, to permit me "to hold any view I want", that certainly is a novelty that I never expected to hear ever again, will you ensure that it is put in any future Labour manifesto, to prevent any misunderstanding?In answer to your question to Jim. whilst I don't claim, or wish to speak on his behalf, indeed I have never met him. But having said that I, like you have read his concerns about this application. He has addressed them fully IMOH, and has apologised for a particular remark. I do get bored though repeating, that we live in a democratic society, and you even referred to his posting as perhaps borderline "racist", for which you have not replied, to justify this assertion. What else do you want to hear, he has lived in the area for 35 years for god's sake, and has concerns, and has aired them. Will you please convince me that you are genuinely concerned, by condemning the people I have already mentioned previously, who abuse our way of life with impunity! but as soon as we dare to comment on anything, be it asylum, immigration, religion, Illegal imigration etc., the thought police and the luvvies come out in force. Our rights were very hard won, I for one will never give them up.And perhaps a small concise comment from you, about the demonstrations over the cartoons, where death threats were made, and the police failed to arrest anybody at the time!To my mind this was more of a concern to us all, than the furore raised by this gentlemans opinion. Think about it and act before we lose this basic right!

Account suspended ● 6979d

DuncanThank you for finding that Planning Application URL.I phoned the Civic Centre lady this afternoon but her phone was not answered..nor was there an ansaphone at the ready. I wanted to ask her about the missing pages from the plans that Tim had seen at a distant Library. I'll have to try again tomorrow.Checking Google this evening I find that the adjoining house..No 21 was given planning permission to demolish a tree a couple of years back...and last year, in June, Planning Permission was refused for extensions to the Chapel..on the lines of the existing application!!That was cheering to read. Yes I'm against expansion..and will be sending off my protest letter soon.  Tonight, I was speaking with a very pleasant gentleman in Isleworth..and I thought from his accent that he might be American or Canadian. Imagine my surprise when he told me he was an Iraqi..and a Shia-Muslim too ..and he prayed 5 times a day..but then he drank wine etc etc. He was married to a Non Muslim.He was most genial. I quizzed him about the type of people currently occupying the Thornbury Road Chapel.The PR brigade would tell me off for repeating the things he said about them. But it's confirmed my suspicions.  I'll be meeting him again soon.Of course such opinions can be no part of any development protest!http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:t82f_wA83ksJ:planning.hounslow.gov.uk/LBHPlanning/Planning_CaseNo.aspx%3FstrCASENO%3DP/2005/2883+Mr+S+M+H+Rizvi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-ahttp://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:hr27KnWUCqAJ:planning.hounslow.gov.uk/planningv2/Planning_CaseNo.aspx%3FstrCASENO%3DP/2006/1358+Mr+S+M+H+Rizvi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a

Jim Lawes ● 6979d

DuncanThank you for those references.  Having read the some of the following website paragraphs:http://homepage.tinet.ie/~ahlulbyteassociation/I wonder whether a/the grand extension to the Thornbury Road Chapel,and the future implications thereof...are being underestimated by some of our correspondents...and not appreciated by local residents..that's if they are aware! The place could become an expanded cultural and social and religous mecca attracting larger crowds with no proper car parking facilities and a worsening of the current occupant's poor environmental record.If the "local Library" in the Osterely and Spring Grove wardhasn't got a copy of the plans...it's possible that the appropriate ward councillors haven't been notified either. Crazy! All credit to Tim for revealing that the plans currently on display are seemingly incomplete and misleading. What a state of affairs!Tim raised the point about possible early morning noise pollution. Most Muslin groups seem to have a strict daily prayer timetable starting at about 5am in the morning. Whilst most followers may perform their prayer ceremonies at home..others may prefer to start going to their enlarged local chapel at dawn and later..with all the accompanying slamming of car doors etc. This may all seem like trivial arguements..but I believe the consequences of the property's expansion could be alarmingand I will be writing to the Planning Officer according. So far, no objections have been received!!The traffic chaos around the roads adjoining the Mosque in Wellington Road South..come to mind.

Jim Lawes ● 6980d

Thank you for your responses..and yes it might have been foolish of me to use such a phrase to describe a swarm of humans..some 20 and more of them ....dressed top to toe in black...milling around and dashing across the road in my vehicular path. That was a couple of years ago..and I'm reluctantly becoming accustomed to the change of local style.Dressed as they were and still do..I cannot admire them for their beauty, or indeed understand their way of presenting themselves to other members of the human race in the UK. But that's my opinion.But living in Chiswick for over 25 years + and then in Isleworth for another 35 years +, it has been easy for me to see and sense the changes around us. I love to meet people here from overseas and from the four corners of the British Isles.  I meet and speak to hundreds and hundreds...and enjoy being friendly to them. I must love the area, I've taken some 3000 photos and haven't yet moved!!But, I don't like overseas people who arrive here to take the pickle, abuse our treasured customs of courtesy and fair play..etc etc etc.But Thornbury Road, Isleworth is special..and we long time residents should be seeing that it is looked after..  It is an elegant avenue from London Road in the south...passing grand terraces of 100 years old houses, crossing the GWR, up through Osterley Village and ending at the entrance to Osterley Park.I have watched the decline in the beauty over many years.So many of my neighbours have moved away..and others have ordered their Removal vans. Mustn't mention the demolishion of houses and bungalows and grand front gardens in Jersey Road and the building of inappropriate bulbous replacements.  A so called Conservation area indeed! ("Money does it" say my Estate Agent friend.."that's how they get away with it"). Hopefully the new Administration will put an end to that.Back to Thornbury Road:1)The Park gates at one end.2)Within 100 metres of the Park gates and opposite the fabulous old book shop we have this new awful sight..linked to some new local citizen I believe.Awful!  Where's the Civic pride!! or respect for the locals passing by. No Planning Permission..and no reversal by enforcement yet!3)The Thornbury Road shopping parade.No comment..except that one sometimes has to walk into the road to pass by! Who are these swalleywags!!4)The Thornbury Road branch of Barclays Bank Limited.Gone:  too many bank raids by other scalleywags. Staff were too scared to stand at the counter.5)The Old Post Office on the Corner with the Great West RoadNo picture...but a facility bashed out of service by roaming thieving scalleywags.. could have been Englishmen!!  Now a not very attractive Travel Agents..surrounded on the pavement with parked cars.6)The Campion House site in Thornbury Road..has overdevelopement looming..but that's a different topic.Of course I'm sad to see certain downhill changes..and as one eases down Thornbury Road the sight of you know what adds to my displeasure!I must make further enquiries.  One wonders how many locals have been notified by the Planning Department.Thank you for all your responses..much appreciated...and I'll take heed of the advice given.

Jim Lawes ● 6982d

Hmm. I'm not from Isleworth and only rarely there so clearly these are the thoughts of one unaffected herself by the development:- I presume the "mysterious Islamic organisation" is only mysterious because you (or I) know very little about how Muslims organise their lives. For all we know it might be the equivalent of a Methodist bible class. No need to worry about that, just a deep breath and recognition of one's fear of the "other"- Parking: well, if it was still a church and people still went to Christian churches then the road would be swamped regularly with cars as well and no one would feel the need to object. So the above applies again.- Rubbish: ugly and unhygenic, I agree, but it looks like nothing that couldn't be solved with a second refuse container. As long as the new project entails an appropriately sized enclosure for a reasonable number of containers all should be well.- The architectural side of the planning application is a different matter altogether. The building is listed so it has to be in keeping etc., but that's for other people to judge.Lastly - and I do want to remain friends and not offend you - I think you want to re-read the post for general tone. "invaded by a swarm of black ants" "dump their rubbish all over the place..never seem to think of recycling like me and you" That's pretty awful, don't you think, and a bit beneath you. Reminds me of the racist old bag I knew who worked at a NAAFI and who said exactly the same things about "coloureds" in army housing. ("and if that makes me a racialist I don't care!") Well, it did.

Anneberth Lux ● 6983d