Forum Topic

Political Correctness

There is quite a bit of debate about PC on another thread, but I think it is a very important subject in its own right.When people get the 'racist' label thrown at them, in many cases it seems it is because they are speaking out against the extreme & damaging political correctness that many feel is destroying this country.I notice that someone asked for a definition of PC; if you Google "Political Correctness" there are many sites that offer a definition.Some interesting "PC" websites (you will have to copy & paste the address I'm afraid!) - Campaign Against Political Correctness website:http://www.capc.co.uk/Politically Incorrect website:http://www.politicallyincorrect.me.uk/

Lynn Clark ● 6606d60 Comments

Chris Apologies, I had thought that you asked if anyone was aware of, or supporting the International Day Against Homophobia on Thursday 17th May.

Gareth Evans ● 6595d

ChrisWe will be doing something to help on this.  I have received your letter and hope to respond in person some time over the weekend, or Monday latest.

Phil Andrews ● 6595d

Duplicatecd my comments. no matter. Gareth, I know of Local Authorities around London who are supporting IDAHO as well. Unfortunately none of them seem to be in West London!

Christopher Boucher ● 6595d

Probably a silly question, but is anyone aware of, or supporting the International Day Against Homophobia on Thursday 17th May? Or is this just another example of PC gone mad? As a gay man I don't see myself as a victim but refuse to be victimised by ill advised bullies who decide for themselves what may or may not be insulting to other members of the community.

Christopher Boucher ● 6595d

Chris I know of several local authorities across London who are supporting IDAHO.

Gareth Evans ● 6595d

Probably a silly question, but is anyone aware of, or supporting the International Day Against Homophobia on Thursday 17th May? Or is this just another example of PC gone mad? As a gay man I don't see myself as a victim but refuse to be victimised by ill advised bullies who decide for themselves what may or may not be insulting to other members of the community.

Christopher Boucher ● 6595d

Strewth. I could've sworn I posted on this thread earlier today. Maybe it was censored. That's political correctness for you.

Fraser Pearce ● 6595d

David G. Green the author is Director of Civitas: the Institute for the Study of Civil Society. I think their website has some good articles. There is also another book advertised there on this subject:"The Retreat of Reason" by Anthony Browne. If you go to the Civitas site, below, in the right column is a pointer to this book, sample chapters and reviews.www.civitas.org.uk

Duncan Walker ● 6595d

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/1903386535/sr=11-1/qid=1178883512/ref=dp_image_text_0/026-2481279-4430066?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books&qid=1178883512&sr=11-1

Lynn Clark ● 6595d

I am pleased that someone has brought up Roy "Chubby" Brown.Mr "Chubby" Brown is a powerful example of the potential of words of offend and upset. Perhaps some of PC's detractors will now concede that someone who get offends by a certain word is not being 'up themselves' and ever-so precious. I imagine some of Mr "Chubby" Brown's fans would argue that as they aren't offended by his act, it isn't offensive... A couple of other comments about PC that I'm sure they would agree with are whatever you call something does not, and cannot, alter what it is and Political correctness encourages offence to be taken where none is intended. In short, I think Mr "Chubby" Brown illustrates the importance of not referring to people in a way which they find offensive. And this is all policial correctness is.For those who still claim to find PC offensive, may I recommend Richard Littlejohn's new book. It's been getting good reviews on Amazon, I understand

D Clifford ● 6597d

VanessaLike Tha late Mary Whitehouse, you must have seen quite a bit of him to have reached a conclusion, about his homophobia, sexist, and racist comments. At what stage were you "outraged". There is a button on the TV which is marked OFF, and various other buttons for alternative channels, These are als duplicated on your remote. Stop torturing yourself!!

Account suspended ● 6597d

Not knowing what a recessive gene is, would again prevent you entering the hallowed postcode (unless after dark, whilst on the rob).

Colin Murphy ● 6597d

"'Meeja' as in media,gangster as in half baked,chattering class,make-it-up-as-they-go-along,bigging up their mates,university educated to**ers to whom no rules or common sense seem to apply."... pray, is one jealous?;-)

Sarah Felstead ● 6597d

'Meeja' as in media,gangster as in half baked,chattering class,make-it-up-as-they-go-along,bigging up their mates,university educated to**ers to whom no rules or common sense seem to apply.

Keith Iddon ● 6597d

Whats a 'Meeja' Gangster?

Helen Fogarth ● 6597d

Vanessa,This is nothing but pretentious,self indulgent rubbish fostered by our z list celebrity society and 'meeja'gangsters.Laugh girl,or you'll surely cry...

Keith Iddon ● 6597d

Vanessa,As Richard Littlejohn once said "The world has gone to hell in a handcart the last one out please turn the light off". And I think he should get the No-bells piece of pie prize.

Helen Fogarth ● 6597d

Getting back to the cobblers frequently spoken by the head-up-rear brigade, I nearly choked on my porridge this morning reading that a pile of old tat has been nominated for the Turner Prize. Leaving aside the views on Iraq this crap is a 'meticulous replica of peace campaigner Brian Haw's......demo in Parliament Square'. Art critic and Turner juror Michael Bracewell described the 4- metre long piece as "a work of incredible, epic proportion. He added it puts you right in the gravitational field and the emotional field of the loneliness of protest".????????? Please someone tell me this is PC speak gone mad.

Vanessa Smith ● 6597d

Sir.I will have you know that there are no gingers in my family also please don't call me a "Pikey" we come from a long line of Tinkers Thieves and Vagabonds of the highest order.

Helen Fogarth ● 6597d

Excuse me Miss, but with your heritage, you should keep quiet, for you have precisely that recessive ginger gene. You probably would live in Chiswick, but we like to keep the pikeys out.

Colin Murphy ● 6597d

On the other hand - it was my misfortune to catch a few bits of a programme about an alleged "comedian" Roy "Chubby" Brown, now I am far from P.C. but this man was an abomination, filthy, foul-mouthed to the most appalling degree, sexist, homophobic and racist. Yet people were queueing up and paying good money to see his show, he made Jim Davidson look mild and that's saying something!

Vanessa Smith ● 6597d

Yes Ma'am (he says, touching his forelock in obsequious submission)!!

John Coxall ● 6597d

What sort of world is this...?A s**t one, where attempts are made to please 5% at the expense of the rest of us and of common sense.'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few'...unless of course the few are lawyers and sheisters.

Keith Iddon ● 6598d

John,You are allowed to be ginger if you don't live in Chiswick, we can understand in-breeding in other parts of the borough and make allowances now get back in the cupboard under the stairs please!

Helen Fogarth ● 6598d

Hang about! I'm ginger and I neither live in Chiswick nor support political correctness. I feel offended by your negative stereotypes of those of us of the red-headed persuasion. I am an old-school Brentford Brunette socialist who believes in real equality not "positive" discrimination, so please don't lump me in with PC multi-culturalist Chiswickians.

John Coxall ● 6598d

Only joking - I tend not to take offence easily (unlike some!) LOL

John Coxall ● 6598d

Vanessa,I have not traveled through CHR of late are they all "Gingers" there or can you not say as it is a bit too PC?

Helen Fogarth ● 6598d

Blimey, you're brave - the wrath of the Chiswickians may fall upon your head like bricks!

Vanessa Smith ● 6599d

Vanessa,All the children will grow up with ginger hair and live in Chiswick!

Helen Fogarth ● 6600d

Just read the biggest load of PC nonsense in today's Sunday Times in an article about one of these "flagship" city academies being built in Peterborough. There will be no playground, but there will be a "wetland eco-pool" for rainwater collection. The Head, who sounds like a leftover from a Dickens novel, has said that the pupils will be escorted to their 30 minute lunch break to ensure they "do not sneak away to run around". He then says, wait for this classic piece of classic PC double speak - "Pupils will be able to hydrate during the learning expereince", the designers of this bulding known locally  as the blancmange say "playgrounds did not fit in the concept". What sort of world is this?

Vanessa Smith ● 6600d

The PC brigade assume that they have the right to give opinions for others without usually first consulting them.Additionally, Political correctness encourages offence to be taken where none is intended.You have taken my 'good manners' thread out of context & I most certainly do not substitute good manners with Political Correctness!I also disagree that Political Correctness encourages common sense - quite the reverse - & unfortunately it impacts on all areas of life.Political Correctness causes me offence - how will it deal with this?

Lynn Clark ● 6603d

I'm not sure why such a simple concept is causing some people so much difficulty. Again, all PC involves is not referring to people in a way that they find offensive. As someone else remarked this could quite easily also be called 'good manners'.The argument about "pig cakes" or whatever they are is a trading standards issue, nothing at all to do with PC, but is does show how easily the waters can be muddied by half truths, urban myths, and people (willfully?) misunderstanding the concept.The "I don't find this offensive therefore it isn't offensive" argument is circular and doesn't  really get us anywhere. It is the people who are being referred to in a way that they dislike who should have more of a say regarding whether a word, logo, image or TV show offends. If common sense can't prevail then we must give lawyers all our money and traipse off to court…

D Clifford ● 6603d

Conversely, the PC brigade make the basic mistake that because they feel something is offensive everyone else should.

Lynn Clark ● 6603d

You are clearly a lost cause if you felt the Black and White Minstrel show was brilliant. I think the basic mistake you are making is that because you don't personally feel something is offensive you don't believe anyone else should either.

Justin Harris ● 6604d

Lynn, the 'Politically Incorrect' website is a great site. Thank goodness there is a backlash to all this PC nonsense and we can speak our minds in a direct and responsible way.I laughed at the recent nonsense of the Theme park's ad for a Fat Controller being banned as discrimination http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23394222-details/Theme%20park's%20ad%20for%20a%20Fat%20Controller%20banned%20as%20discrimination/article.do

Duncan Walker ● 6604d

But then isn't feminism just another term to justify sexism?

Colin Murphy ● 6604d

Justin, I am Irish and so were my parents and jokes never bothered us, as for black faces on TV there was only 1 channel and everybody was posh no working class newsreaders so was that a bad thing? And the Black and White Minstrel show was brilliant, words like "spastic" there was a Spastic Society charity that did a lot of good work (whats in a name) and some people were crippled so what would you have them called, I don't think anything has got better because everybody has to watch what they say and to who they say it. As for Pig Cakes and the rest read your papers or watch the news on TV they all took the p*** out of it.As human rights until we took it on board through the Labour Government would we have been called a fascist dictatorship as we have only had for a short time.

Helen Fogarth ● 6604d

"When I was a mere slip of a lass we had no PC brigade no racial equality committee or all the rest of the nonsense we have nowadays all they are doing is causing trouble and giving jobs to do-gooders"On the other hand you also had the Black and White Minstrel show, jokes about Irish people being thick, no black faces on TV (apart from above mentioned minstrels), the criminalisation of homosexuality, habitual use of words like spastic and cripple. Do you not accept that in some ways things have got better because we have generally become more sensitive to the feelings of people who are different to us?"Look at the farce in Weymouth from the Trading Standards the baker can't call her cakes Pig cakes because there is no pork in them likewise with her frog cakes and paradise cakes, so what about "angel cake" and such like that have been around for years."Not sure what this has to do with political correctness but usually stories like this that appear in the media prove to be false or exaggerated. 'Human Rights" has to be the worst thing ever to be invented'Well yes if your intention was to set up a fascist dictatorship that would certainly be the case.

Justin Harris ● 6604d

Did you hear Suggs the other day on the radio being interviewed?He was heard attacking sexism in the modern world.Is this an example of madness gone politically correct?;-)

Keith Iddon ● 6604d

I think you have hit the nail on the head - it is about good manners, of which there are precious little in this day and age.

Vanessa Smith ● 6605d

No - I think I'm saying some people could have row in an empty room, I was talking generally when you were talking specifics.

Vanessa Smith ● 6605d

Hi BarryI think your posting highlights questions about peoples attitudes & I agree there is a problem with respect, politeness, consideration & good manners in general.In my childrens school they now have signing classes which I think is great.  (I do some at home with them too).  Hopefully this helps children understand that people are different with different needs, so even if they don't go on to become BSL experts it just helps them to be considerate to others needs.  My youngest is 4 & he still doesn't really understand that his great uncle can't hear him!

Lynn Clark ● 6605d

LynnWhy I asked is because I have only 40% of my hearing and started to fall behind with my schooling although this was light years away. I never came across any name calling in my years at school in fact my fellow pupils gave me help and encouragement. Maybe I was lucky or that in my day adults and children had more respect for one and other than they have today.Nowadays I have been on the end what could be termed as verbal abuse, while in a queue for a till in a shop I was inadvertently blocking the exit, apparently I was asked to move to let someone out, which I didn’t hear, what I did hear was “ come on I’ve asked you three times to move are you B----y Deaf” to which I replied “yes” this prompted a few more choice words as the person didn’t believe me.In days gone by this didn’t seem to happen, if a person didn’t get a reply I got a hand lightly on my shoulder, I’d turn round and hear what they had to say, or is it PC not to do that any more?

Ian Roberts ● 6605d

When I was a mere slip of a lass we had no PC brigade no racial equality committee or all the rest of the nonsense we have nowadays all they are doing is causing trouble and giving jobs to do-gooders and the like on salaries that far outweigh what they do. Look at the farce in Weymouth from the Trading Standards the baker can't call her cakes Pig cakes because there is no pork in them likewise with her frog cakes and paradise cakes, so what about "angel cake" and such like that have been around for years. It all makes me sick to death and "Human Rights" has to be the worst thing ever to be invented, but never mind it has made Cherry Liar very rich and the criminals happy.

Helen Fogarth ● 6605d

Hi BarryIt's a debate about PC in general.  Someone mentioned deaf people as a example & I have answered in the same vein just to confuse you!

Lynn Clark ● 6605d

My uncle was born profoundly deaf & he is referred to as 'Deaf' & has absolutely no problem with it.  He talks about 'Deaf' & 'Hearing' people.  He also has no concept of Political Correctness.For him I would say a good definition would be:Political correctness is where people change their words or behaviour to try to avoid causing offence but usually do not consult the people they are trying not to offend before taking this action which often leads to offence and upset in itself.For me, one of the defenitions of Political Correctness is:Political correctness encourages offence to be taken where none is intended, encourages the re-writing and re-thinking of history along with the abandonment of pride in country, is a serious threat to free speech and, despite being portrayed to be in the name of tolerance, is completely intolerant of anyone who does not act in a politically correct fashion.Although I believe PC has come about with good intentions, I believe it is having a very negative affect in this country.

Lynn Clark ● 6605d

Is this thread about Deaf people or political correctness in general?

Ian Roberts ● 6605d

How on earth are we supposed to know what someone else might find offensive?the fact is we all can reasonably know what is broadly offensive to mostDid the same person write the two preceeding sentences?PC is about ... gobbledegook and hair splitting and calling things that have been accepted for years by precious little names that mean nothing.No. I have set out twice what PC is, and went to the trouble of giving an example. Are you saying deaf people who don't want to be referred to as "deaf and dumb" are "hair splitting"?

D Clifford ● 6605d

Brilliant - as usual the pedants have started, the fact is we all can reasonably know what is broadly offensive to most - but PC is about more than that it is about gobbledegook and hair splitting and calling things that have been accepted for years by precious little names that mean nothing.

Vanessa Smith ● 6605d

In the spirit of political correctness I would like to apologise to the donkey population of the borough for likening them to some of the Labour Party's candidates in last year's local elections.

John Connelly ● 6605d

D Clark Totally right, well done.

Gareth Evans ● 6605d

"How on earth are we supposed to know what someone else might find offensive?"Usually if they get offended this is a pretty good guide. As D Clifford says this is largely about politeness and common sense. If a group of people don't like being referred to in a particular way then just stop doing so unless you actually wish to upset them.

Justin Harris ● 6605d

How on earth are we supposed to know what someone else might find offensive?Common sense might be a good starting point. Or by trying to find out, perhaps by asking someone or checking the internet. For example The National Association for the Deaf's website has a page setting out the terms they prefer here:http://www.nad.org/deafanddumbAn example - children in care are now referred to as 'looked after children' - why?Absolutely potty.Not on the council's website they aren't.As said, political correctness simply means referring to people in a way that they don't find offensive, and I really don't see what the problem is with this. The following from the NAD's website puts it pretty neatly, and of course you can replace 'deaf' with pretty much anything else you want..."What's in a name? Plenty! Words and labels can have a profound effect on people. Deaf and hard of hearing people are sensitive as to how they are referred, because they have experienced being put down and disparaged by other people. They have seen their intelligence, their abilities, and their skills questioned simply because they are deaf or hard of hearing. Show your respect for deaf and hard of hearing people by refusing to use those outdated and offensive terms."

D Clifford ● 6605d

Agreed

Keith Iddon ● 6606d

How on earth are we supposed to know what someone else might find offensive? My interpretation of P.C. is not calling a spade a spade as you say, I just think there's an awful lot of people 'up themselves' and ever-so precious, whatever you call something does not, and cannot, alter what it is. An example - children in care are now referred to as 'looked after children' - why?Absolutely potty.

Vanessa Smith ● 6606d

Isn't it where a spade is called 'an earth inverting agricultural implement'?;-)

Keith Iddon ● 6606d

Welcome to the Forum D Clifford.Out of interest, what type of course were you on for your work training?

Lynn Clark ● 6606d

On a training course at work we were told that political correctness simply means not referring to people in a way that they find offensive.Seems fair enough...

D Clifford ● 6606d

Talking of which, it was with regret that I saw Brian Paddick is leaving the Met. Police at the age of 49 - a sensible copper who only wanted honesty, it seems telling the truth is definitely not on the Met's agenda these days as Rod Liddle in the Sunday Times notes the "truth - a far more dangerous condition in the Metropolitan police than wishing to sleep with other men". Sensible views on soft drugs now pretty much accepted because he had the courage to speak out regardless of what his political masters thought. He will certainly be missed.

Vanessa Smith ● 6606d