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Hiya Pat, how is life down there in sunny Hampshire?  Glad to see you are still taking an interest from a distance.Manifestoes? Well, I can't speak for the Conservatives who as you know are our partners in the new administration, but I am pleased to be able to report that much of what the ICG was created to achieve all those years ago in 1994 has indeed come to pass.  You will doubtless have been following developments on the Hounslow Homes front and after a difficult first year or so and the odd minor change on the staffing side of things there is now a real spirit of partnership and openness between the organisation and the local authority, and consultation and resident participation are now standard practice, with all residents being involved and not just those with a particular party political allegiance.  Elsewhere on this forum you will see that the long-standing quarrel on Ivybridge has finally been resolved - with the full support of Hounslow Homes and the local authority as well as just the ward councillors - and people who were once at odds with each other are working constructively together for the greater good.  One immediate benefit of this has been an unprecedented number of volunteers, from all sections of the community including the youth, and more people than ever from ethnic and cultural minorities on the estate, who have signed up to play their part in this exciting new project.  I can just feel your sense of exhilaration at hearing this news from all these miles away and please do allow me to take this opportunity to thank you for all your hard work in the past in helping to bring this spirit of unity and co-operation about.  Pat, I am absolutely serious when I say we would never have been a position to do it without your help.  I hope the weather has improved since I was down there on the IoW last week, and I wish you all the very best for your continued retirement.

Phil Andrews ● 6491d

David - Its time you stopped misrepresenting my views.  All the Lib Dem Group support the increase to the London average allowance.  This is why two of my colleagues voted for the allowance increase - I have no complaint with their decision (there was no 'whip').Having said that, London averages are a rather crude way of assessing appropriate increases, but they are the right direction of travel.  This is why we felt able to support the increases.  Why do I say its crude? Responsibilities that go with chairing a local area committee, for example, will vary from one borough to the next.  At the moment in Hounslow there are no role descriptions for Exec members or local area committee chairs, despite these substantial additional allowances.It is also a crude mechanism as all councils constantly chasing the average would be completely unsustainable.Our objection (and the reason I voted against the package before full council) is to part-time members of the Executive, doing other jobs (which is fine - I understand people wanting to continue with their professions) and then taking the full Special Responsibility Allowance.  There was no commitment from Cllr Thompson that he and other part-time colleagues would draw an appropriate percentage of their allowance.For all the complaints from Hounslow Labour councillors I hope the Labour gov't initiated 'Councillors' Commission' will see sense and acknowledge that we can no longer have local democracy on the cheap when they report at the end of November.Assessing Councillor performance is also an important part of the changing nature of councillors' roles (also supported by Cllr Thompson).  It makes me wonder whether he will be reprimanding Chiswick Conservative members that left the local area planning committee in-quorate at taxpayers' expense? See http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=evcacp02.htmAndrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6506d

Any councillor, like Councillor Phil Andrews, who works full-time is to be applauded but he or she does so of their own free will as being a councillor is not full-time paid employment.I have no idea how many hours each councillor devotes to council business. It may well depend on how many hours a particular councillor can make available having taken into account his or her other responsibilities.Councillors who are retired, who work part-time or who have no other jobs other than being a councillor can obviously devote more time to council business than those who are in full-time employment but that in itself is no guarantee of the quantity or the quality of their contributions.Councillor Peter Thompson, as Leader,and Councillor Mark Bowne as Deputy Leader have very serious leadership positions in the Council.They both also happen to have careers and families to consider. They are both young men with a lot to offer. They both could and do have succesful careers outside politics and it is to our benefit that they do have professional careers as they can use their experience in education and business to benefit all the residents of the borough.Local government is too important to be left to full-time politicians who have no life or experience outside politics.I think it would be totally wrong to ask councillors to start filling in timesheets and to start paying them on a hourly rate basis.The allowances which are controversial are the Special Responsibility Allowances paid in recognition of the very serious and special responsibilities of certain councillors. They are not salaries and they are the same allowances that are paid to hundreds of councillors in similar positions of responsibility throughout the country. I fail to see what all the fuss is about.

David Giles ● 6509d

Is what the electors of Isleworth and Hanworth Park have told former Labour Councillor Vanessa Smith on several occasions.These increased allowances were budgeted for under the previous Labour administration, are in line with allowances paid to councillors in councils led by Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives and are in fact totally reasonable. It is highly dishonest and hypocritical of the Labour Group and Lib Dem Councillor Andrew Dakers and Leftovers like Vanessa Smith to oppose the new allowances.For many years the quality of the Labour Group on Hounslow Council has been very poor - with a few notable exceptions such as former Labour Leader and Mayor John Connolly. Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that many able, younger, well educated people who otherwise would have been willing to stand for election as councillors have been dissuaded from doing so because of the financial and time costs involved in being a councillor. The Labour Party has obviously suffered badly in this respect. In contrast the Conservatives have managed to elect a very high calibre group of councillors, some of which are of course retired or semi-retired but others of which like Peter Thompson and Mark Bowen are young professional men with families, whose careers will undoubtably suffer because of their civic duties.Sorry about that Mark and Peter !Councillors' duties have increased greatly in recent years-particularly since the election of interventionist and busybody Labour Governments since 1997 and the massive amounts of new EU and UK legislation.In Hounslow the problems have been exacerbated by the huge capital debt built up by Labour over 30 years, the consistent under funding of the Borough by Gordon Brown and the challenge of housing, educating and providing services for newcomers, including quite a few people who do not speak English fluently or at all.Whereas being a councillor is not usually a full-time job- and shouldn't be- it is at least a part-time job calling foor a minimum of 20 hours council work per week. On the assumption that an average professional person earns at least £20 per hour, then the services of any councillor in a such employment or profession contributes is worth the equivalent of £400 per week or at least £20,000 each year.Of course many professionals earn more. In engineering for example I know of firms in this borough who are paying well over £50 per hour to well qualified people. And of course lawyers, accountants, doctors and many other professionals are paid more than engineers.We should not be dependent on the rich, the retired, the  unemployed  or the unemployable to run our Councils.Local Government is too important for that.And let us always remember the current administration, with its highly talented, qualified and dedicated Executive, is the first council in many years that has managed to freeze the Council Tax, the Community Charge or the Rates. This is greatly welcomed by pensioners, by those on fixed incomes and by all those who have struggled to deal with the hugely increased tax burden we have all birne since Gordon Brown became Chancellor in 1997.

David Giles ● 6510d

Agenda item 7 of the following link should answer what options were considered:http://213.210.33.3/ieListDocuments.asp?CId=254&MId=3721&J=19.3(b) - option 2 - of the following was agreed (this is the element of the report that has caused the most interest on this forum):http://213.210.33.3/Published/C00000254/M00003721/AI00033572/$MembersAllowancesreportjuly07final.docA.ps.pdfI voted for the option that was agreed.I have responded to a couple of contributors on this thread already but I wanted to make some other general remarks.I note that the article on the front page of this website, likewise on ChiswickW4, selectively quotes from a speech that I made in November 2003 when the previous large percentage increase in Special Responsibility Allowances was considered.  Here is a link to the speech that I made at the time:http://www.fhtory.com/page.php?pid=6 I also quoted three paragraphs from that very speech when I spoke last Tuesday.  They were: "Like most in this Chamber, I have no problem whatsoever in defending the existence of a Members allowance, indeed I would do so with conviction and enthusiasm.  When I first become involved in politics in my teens, my father always used to passionately stress that no Councillor should go short for dedicating themselves to public service.  No reasonable person could argue with that." and "I accept that with an Executive Structure each Lead Member has additional responsibilities and if it were demonstrated that any of them, or for that matter Chairmen of Area Committees and Overview and Scrutiny, were going financially short as a consequence of their obligations, then I would give serious consideration to supporting Option 1." and "If this report had demonstrated that Executive Members had to take unpaid leave from their jobs in order to fulfil their duties, then again I would be minded to support Option 1."'Option 1' refers to an option contained in a report that went to Borough Council in November 2003 and should not be confused with Option 1 in the report considered last week.I tried to build on those quotes when I spoke on Tuesday by assuring the Chamber that the increase in my Special Responsibility Allowance would enable me to take more unpaid leave from my full-time job.The discussion can be watched on the Council's webcast:http://www.hounslow.ukcouncil.net/site/

Cllr Mark Bowen ● 6516d

"I agree no-one should be out of pocket, but all things in proportion, clearly the element of public service is fast disappearing, and that is to the detriment of everything we have always known."This comment is terribly important.  Personally speaking, I would have preferred that the Executive Structure in Local Government had not been introduced as it is that structure that has put us in this position.  I was not part of the former Committee System but in terms of what I know about it, I would prefer that it was still in place.  More Councillors had involvement in the decision making process and I do not recall any talk about the Chairmen and under that system needing to be full-time.There are already people in Local Government (not necessarily in Hounslow) talking about more Councillors becoming full-time.  I hope that this does not happen.  This goes against one of Local Government's most endearing trait, namely the public service element you refer to.  I also sometimes get the impression from some people that they believe that Councillors having a full-time job elsewhere is somehow a bad thing.  I know that you have not made that argument (at least I have not seen it on this forum) but I strongly disagree with those people who hold that view.  If people are retired and can dedicate themselves to being a Councillor or Lead Member full-time then that is great but people of working age, from the private sector, voluntary sector, education etc, have a contribution to make also.I would also like to respond to something you recently said on this forum:"Well not unreasonably you can see the employer's view too -why should they 'subsidise' public duties - perhaps some form of recompense for employers might sweeten the pill. So many people are put off and I think it's well past time that this country faced this, otherwise you are pretty much restricting your pool of people who want to take part."This is essentially what the large increase in my Special Responsibility Allowance will be used for.  In simple and practical terms, the bulk of the increase will put me in a position whereby I can afford to take more unpaid leave.  I do assure you that I have similar public service aspirations and ethics as you do.

Cllr Mark Bowen ● 6516d

Actually, I did not believe the views you expressed during the meeting were a low point.  You made a strong contribution towards building the argument for why voting for the increases was the right thing to do.  I think that all sides of the Chamber were surprised to see the way you voted based on what you said.I wish to take comment or take issue with some of the things you say in your Press Release:"Families and mortgage commitments for example should not suffer as a result of a councillor's public service and so there must be appropriate levels of financial support. We can no longer have democracy on the cheap or we will not attract excellent future councillors."This is essentially why I support increases in Special Responsibility Allowances."There is no clarity at the moment from Executive members as to what the public will get for their money."Councillor Kinghorn and I did our best to pre-empt this very question.  I was open in terms of what time I have been able to take off from my full-time job since I became Deputy Leader.  I also said that in the event of this increase being agreed, I would be making an application with my employer in order to reduce my hours as this would enable me to spend more daytime hours fulfilling my roles.  On reflection, I hope that you objectively accept that this is what I said and that your claim of *no clarity* is unfair.In addition, your two Lib-Dem colleagues who were present when we voted on this matter supported the increase.  Your Press Release was not very open about that, was it?

Cllr Mark Bowen ● 6516d

ValerieYour comment was as quoted, and can be seen by anybody who revisits your posting made at 22:24 on 28/07/07.  In response I asked you whether you would similarly condemn a Labour authority which had altered its allowance structure in the same way and you declined to respond, which I took to be a "no".As I understand it your position then altered a tad from opposition to increased allowances (by non-Labour councils) per se, to increased allowances following cuts.  Having already told us that the former administration didn't make cuts, you then changed your view on this and told us that it did.  Which may leave some people wondering how you could justify making provision yourself for the increases which you now so vociferously oppose, having made cuts of your own.I am not sure, from recollection, just how long it was after making budget cuts that your own administration increased allowances by similar percentages (as percentage rather than quantum would appear to be the basis of your contrived outrage) on the two occasions which it did in recent years (once under the leadership of Councillor Connelly), but I have requested the necessary information and will provide it in due course should it contradict in any way the position which you are now taking.With regard to your last question, I reproduce below the posting I made yesterday on ChiswickW4.com in response to a similar request for my own position on the matter, which also gives the lie to John's untypically dishonest (and frankly ridiculous) suggestion that, as an Executive member, I am "well-heeled" and work only a few hours each week:The issue at hand is that the existing pay structure took little account of the huge volume of extra work incurred by Executive councillors following the forced introduction, by the current government, of the Cabinet system.Brendan is completely wrong to say Hounslow councillors have "put themselves in a position" of deciding our own pay levels.  We are required to do so, nothing would please me more if someone were to take this obligation away from local authorities.  I wholeheartedly agree that it is quite wrong for councillors to have to make this decision.Anybody assuming Executive responsibility now must either (a) give up any prospect of holding down a proper job and commit themselves to it full-time (as I have done); (b) give up sufficient hours as to hold down two full-time jobs at the same time, or (c) do the job on a part-time basis in a way which does not deliver the standard of service which the post requires.The increases look huge in percentage terms but if you compare the allowances of Executive portfolio holders to the salaries of lead officers, for whom they are responsible, they are still miniscule.  And, unlike councillors, lead officers cannot be summarily dismissed after four years without having committed any act of misconduct.I hear and understand the argument that councillors didn't use to receive anything, even out of pocket expenses, and that for that reason this should continue to be the case.  This is rather akin to saying that my ten-year-old twins should be sent to work in a mine on account of the fact that other children of a similar age have had to do so in the past.The new levels of remuneration agreed by Borough Council on Tuesday night (either by one vote or the Mayor's casting vote, after a long debate) still fall some way short of those recommended by London Councils, and in my view are not at such a level as not to discourage people with families and/or mortgages from assuming Executive responsibility.  In that respect I believe they are something of a fudge, and I said so in debate on Tuesday.The problem is that, having created the Cabinet system and recommended that local authorities increase allowances to appropriate levels, the government has not made any provision to alleviate the increased burden on our budgets.  Therefore it follows automatically that any money spent on increases to members' allowances is money which could otherwise be spent on service provision which will inevitably, and not unreasonably, attract criticism.Many of the arguments made in opposition to the proposed increases were entirely valid.  To my recollection three Conservatives, four members of the Community Group, Councillor John Connelly and one Liberal Democrat either voted against the proposal or abstained.  The recommendation was passed by a whisker, and none of those opposing or abstaining could have predicted with confidence that it would have been passed regardless.The contrived indignation expressed by the Labour Group, who as always voted as one, was insincere, opportunistic and shameful.  The money was available precisely because the last Labour administration had put it aside in the 2006/07 budget for similar increases to follow a Labour victory at the 2006 local elections. One Labour member quite openly admitted to me the following day that his Group were "shocked" when I spoke against the recommendation, having calculated that it would pass through safely with the full support of every member of the administration with Labour claiming the moral high ground for having voted against.  Had it been defeated, Labour would have been presented with the logisitical problem of having to reintroduce the recommendations with a striaght face in the unlikely event of them forming an administration again in 2010.  This is the mentality we are up against.My total annual allowance following the increase is now £25,763, for which I would estimate that I put in a 60-80 hour week.  I will leave it to others to judge whether they feel I have my "snout in the trough", or how this might compare with what I might have received for a similar commitment of time in the market.  I would respect any view on this which is sincerely held, from whichever quarter, but no cynical political opportunism or desperate comparisons with the K££ns' wholly unnecessary additional housing allowance will be responded to.And for the record, I abstained on the vote on the grounds that I agreed with the increases in principle but in the absence of any assistance we didn't have the money to award them.  When I did so I had no indication as to whether the recommendation would be carried or not.Hope this is helpful.

Phil Andrews ● 6516d