Forum Topic

Jim Lawes · 12/28/2007 12:47:00 AM

new.BrentfordTW8.com Communtity Forum Topic posting

Heathrow Night Flights up from 16 to 24 before 6am?

I don't expect anyone to do anything about this revelation.Heathrow craftily gets on with what it wants to do ..and s*d the locals if they are trying to sleep.It is my understanding that an average of 16 flights are allowed to land at Heathrow in the early morning (4.30am till 6am)..that's 5800 a year. The agreement I believe states 11.30pm till 6am.On Boxing Day morning, so I understand on good authority, 24 flights were allowed to fly into Heathrow over Brentford, Isleworth and Hounslow before 6am. That's 50% over limit.This morning..27th December there was a particularly noisy aircraft going over at 5am ish which woke me up. The sound was long drawn out and it disturbed me.Just thought you'd like to know.

Jim Lawes ● 6422d107 Comments

Steve Mayner has issued a bulletin on www.wandsworth.gov.ukunder "Night flights battle starts today"

Robert Darke ● 6276d

Wandsworth Council Leader Edward Lister stated "we are aiming to achieve some relief for residents in the 4.30 to 6.00 am period" as Wandsworth, Richmond, Windsor and Maidenhead appear at the High Court tomorrow.(2nd attempt to return to front page)

Robert Darke ● 6278d

Wandsworth Council Leader Edward Lister stated "we are aiming to achieve some relief for residents in the 4.30 to 6.00 am period" as Wandsworth, Richmond, Windsor & Maidenhead appear at the High Court tomorrow.

Robert Darke ● 6278d

Apologies that my proof reading didn't spot that my OCR scan did not recognise BAA and substituted BM twice in Jerry's letter.

Tim Henderson ● 6323d

Just to report that I tried an "Environmental Information Request" to the Department of Transport in early March. (Similar to a Freedom of Information Request - but slightly fewer get-outs !) :Please could you send me the information available from noise monitors measuring arrivals at Heathrow airport for flight CX251 on the morning of December 27th 2007 and of the three flights on either side of that movement.Yesterday I received the reply (dated April Fools Day) :<<<<>>>>>>I am pondering my response - but the absence of information does not seem to agree with the comments from the CAA noise experts. I was also amused by the comment that there are no fixed routes for inbound aircraft at Heathrow. If so, why do half of them have to come over my house !!Nor does Jerry appear to appreciate the irrelevance of CDA as a noise reduction technique for our area of West London (it is irrelevant to anyone west of Barnes).

Tim Henderson ● 6323d

For those of you who have made several comments about the noisy Cathay Pacific early morning landings - I would be interested to hear your comments from two days time when the new Super Jumbo starts its regular daily flights into Heathrow.The 1st flight today (Tuesday) arrives just after 3 in the afternoon, but from Wednesday onwards they arrive circa 5:30 in the morning until the end of the month moving to closer to 6:00 in the morning beginning of next month.Details are here:A380 at Heathrow

Stephen Browne ● 6341d

Thanks to the Chancellor for reminding me that there is another consultation open at the moment considering the changes to Aviation Passenger Duty. Instead of charging per passenger, the government is minded to charge by the plane load . Thus operators flying out of Heathrow with half empty planes will be penalised relative to those who manage to fill them up. "This reform will take place on 1 November 2009, and has the objective of sending betterenvironmental signals, and ensuring that aviation makes a greater contribution tocovering its environmental costs, while ensuring that a fair level of revenue continues tobe raised from the sector in order to support public services."Unfortunately, from my point of view, the environmental costs in the consultation are only associated with climate change emissions and not with other environmental disbenefits of aviation (e.g. waking up Brentford at 4.30am each morning). The informal discussions that have lead to the proposal appear to have mainly involved organisations cosily attached to airport use (e.g the European Low Fares Airline Association and the Popular Flying Association) and not to those suffering the environmental disbenefits. I wouldn't have thought it was beyond the wit of a database to bump up the plane charge by a suitable factor depending on how unsocial the hour it landed or took off.People may also like to express their views as to whether passengers using an airport as a hub should be able to claim exemption from the duty (the government is minded to charge them/ their flights - but is welcoming discussion on the matter). I don't suspect that it will have much effect, but those who have got into the habit of responding to consultations may want to drop a line to the Treasury.The consultation is athttp://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/E/2/consult_aviation310108.pdfClosing date is 24th April

Tim Henderson ● 6346d

Yes indeed - although the leaked Environment Agency response to the consultation also mentioned in the Times pleases me more than the dirty tricks exposure as it submits the dodgy data to a decent peer review. And the peers are not able to follow it or make it consistent with other data.I have posted stuff in the ChiswickW4 forum.

Tim Henderson ● 6349d

Tim have you seen the Sunday Times today which uncovers what dirty tricks the Government is using to back up its case for thord runway with dodgy data?http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3512042.ece

Michael Fletcher ● 6349d

I see that the 2M group have a recent news release :Court to rule on night flight curbsA High Court case in May could force transport secretary Ruth Kelly to slash the number of aircraft allowed to arrive at Heathrow before 6am.A group of local authorities in south west London and Berkshire are seeking a judicial review of the Government's failure to tackle errors in its night flight quota system.http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/Home/MyWandsworth/Pressreleases/newspage_detail.htm?id=5606

Tim Henderson ● 6349d

The additional hour or two on the train or car for longhaul is a small proportion of the door-to-door journey which would make shorthaul inconvenient. In addition spacious and efficient facilities, as at Narita, make the trip experience better, and ground handling regains some time, in contrast to the worries and scrum experienced by many at Heathrow. In my view the tollerance of many over the years of continual expansion is being abused by the encroachment of any nightflights which I regard as immoral.

Robert Darke ● 6365d

"The thread may also like to know that on expansion in Japan the long haul flights were moved to Narita, 40 miles from Tokyo, and Haneda was retained for domestic and our equivalent of European flights for native convenience which seems the right way round, even with contraction of the nearest such as Paris & Brussels."Thank you Robert. I commented earlier on this thread that it is HACAN policy to increase the proportion of long-haul flights and decrease the proportion of short-haul European. But it is the long-haul Asian etc flights which we hear over us at 4:30 am. The HACAN policy was stated at the Hounslow NO meeting.If you feel like me that long-haul flights should be moved out of Heathrow let's write to John Stewart and tell him so.

Michael Fletcher ● 6365d

Jim and all, Wandsworth Council website is showing under Night flights "Unfortunately the Dft has taken no action to ban the noisy 747-400`s which it has conceded are 74 per cent higher than the prescribed limit.Wandsworth, Richmond and other councils in south west London are now seeking a judicial review of the Governments decision".Info received from Ealing Council is that the review is due to be heard on May 20th-22nd by Mr.Justice Sullivan.One supposes it could lead to quieter aircraft substitution or rescheduling and may also be worth mentioning to John Stewart.The thread may also like to know that on expansion in Japan the long haul flights were moved to Narita, 40 miles from Tokyo, and Haneda was retained for domestic and our equivalent of European flights for native convenience which seems the right way round, even with contraction of the nearest such as Paris & Brussels.

Robert Darke ● 6365d

Duncan I did question him at the meeting and he gave me the usual wish-washy answer that he was against all night flights no matter from trans-continental or europe. The point I questioned him was his stated point that he wished to increase the proportion of trans-continental and reduce european. I will write to him.

Michael Fletcher ● 6373d

Michael, I don't know much about HACAN's change of policy on mix of flights. If you sent an email to John Stewart, he is very helpful and I'm sure would throw some light on it.I just want ALL flights stopped between 11.00 pm and 7.00 am, so we can get a decent night's sleep.

Duncan Walker ● 6374d

Hi DuncanThanks for your efforts on night flights which I entirely support.At the recent Hounslow meeting against Heathrow expansion in January HACAN stated their policy was to change the mix of airflights into Heathrow. Thus they favoured reducing the number of European flights but increasing the number of trans-continental flights - from Asia, Africa, Australia. However it is these long trans-continental flights which hit us early in the morning - such as the Cathay Pacific.Thus HACAN's policy would seem to adversely effect us by encouraging more early morning landings.I haven't seen this matter discussed on the forum so far, are you able to clarify it?

Michael Fletcher ● 6374d

Following my earlier posting regarding a judicial review of night flights I`ve just been informed that its to be heard on May 20-22nd by Mr.Justice Sullivan and that the lead councils are Wandsworth and Richmond.It hinges around the noise certification of Boeing 747`s. Hope this is helpful and will advise if more info received.

Robert Darke ● 6374d

I was interested in John Stewart's comment:"in 2006 the Government said that night flights would stay as they are until 2012 – that is, 16 flights between 11.30pm and 6am, the first one starting at around 4.30am."as I don't remember anything about 4.30 in the night flying conditions.As I understand it the number of flights applies to the whole night period and if the airlines wanted to they could send a flight every half hour on the half hour and still be within the regulations. They could choose to send all 16 at 2am if they wanted.One of the not overwhelming comments from the recent ANASE study on attitudes to noise is that people tend to be more annoyed by noise in the small hours than at either end of the night. Yet I don't think current regs differentiate at all. (In the last consultation on night noise, I suggested that landing charges should be heavily weighted against operations in the middle of the night - I am sure computers could work out the bill. I think I also suggested charging on the basis of actual noise and probably also auctioning off the landing slots of the 10% of noisiest flights each year).The other thing I would question is the "lack of alternation" between 6 and 7. Currently, say, the southern runway gets the overnight landings from 4.30 until 6 and then at 6 the accumulated stacks of flights are released to land on BOTH runways . This continues until the built-up stock of planes is exhausted when landings will return only to the southern runway. And then swaps to the northern runway at 3pm. Meanwhile the airport claims that runway alternation is in place. On westerlies I have the option of a 4.30 wake-up call or a 6.00 one !

Tim Henderson ● 6375d

Here is an exchange I have just had with John Stewart, the Chairman of HACAN (read from the bottom up):"RE: Stop Heathrow night flights nowJohn Stewart [jdm.stewart@virgin.net]To: 'D Walker'Duncan,Happy for you to share this exchange with the Brentford Forum.You make a good point about the fact that we now know that the economic benefits are nothing like what was claimed and it may be worth another challenge.John--------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: D Walker Sent: 12 February 2008 08:48To: jdm.stewart@virgin.netSubject: RE: Stop Heathrow night flights nowJohn,Thanks for the latest information. I wonder if the European Court of Human Rights would rule differently today, because our knowledge is better of the insignificance of the little contribution to the economy that these 16 flights a day make. Also there are now much more people living under and affected by these early morning flights. I don’t think passengers have the right to affect our night’s sleep and having been a regular international business traveller in the past I know it wouldn’t matter a jot that I took a different flight which didn’t land so early in a morning, or indeed even do without the trip!Also I think the attitude of society has changed in recognising the cost of flying against our current world of ‘Peak Oil’ and dwindling natural resources. Only last week the Chief Exec of Shell said: "After 2015, easily accessible supplies of oil and gas probably will no longer keep up with demand." When you start to consider how dependent our society is on oil (for example, for food; I think I heard the UK only has something like four weeks supply of food in the country at any moment) it becomes clear that after 2015 (only 7 years away now) things are going to start to change very rapidly! http://www.shell.com/home/content/aboutshell-en/our_strategy/shell_global_scenarios/two_energy_futures/two_energy_futures_25012008.html I think there should be some more paid research to gather evidence of the effect to quality of life and health of residents around airports. Don’t you think the London Borough of Hounslow and other Boroughs should put their own aircraft noise monitors up on key buildings around the borough, linked to the computer system which records landings and takeoffs, so we have accurate information, instead of relying on BAA which does not currently record noise of each landing? With this information we at least have accurate evidence of the disturbance.Do you mind if I share this exchange with the Brentford TW8 Forum, where we are discussing this and other aspects of Heathrow ?Duncan Walker--------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: John Stewart [mailto:jdm.stewart@virgin.net] Sent: 12 February 2008 07:18To: 'D Walker'Subject: RE: Stop Heathrow night flights nowDuncan,The latest position on night flights is that in 2006 the Government said that night flights would stay as they are until 2012 – that is, 16 flights between 11.30pm and 6am, the first one starting at around 4.30am. The Government had been looking to increase night flights numbers and remove the cap, but withdrew those proposals after a community campaign backed by the local authorities and a good number of MPs.At present no regulations are being contravened.It would be difficult, I think, for HACAN to go back again to the European Court of Human Rights but it is not impossible for another campaign at an airport somewhere in Europe to challenge because the court upheld our fundamental point that night flights could infringe a person’s human rights (at Heathrow it ultimately found against us because it also said that that principle needed to be balanced against other factors, such as the rights of passengers and the alleged contribution of night flights to the economy, and said that, in the case of Heathrow, the balance was about right).What we are doing in lobbying the European Commission, together with our fellow campaigners in Europe. During the course of this year, the European Parliament and the EU member states will need to agree a revised Noise Directive (as it applies to airports). A major plank of our work in 2008 will be lobbying the EU to persuade them to include in the Noise Directive clear targets and timetables for phasing out night flights.There is the possibility of a Judicial Review being sought over the current consultation but, of course, that doesn’t include night flights.John Stewart--------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: D Walker Sent: 11 February 2008 17:13To: jdm.stewart@virgin.netSubject: Stop Heathrow night flights nowJohn,What is the latest position on stopping the current night flights? From reading your information on the HACAN website it seems the last action was in 2005. Can BAA and the Government be challenged in the courts again now, with better luck? What is the best way to achieve success on this? I see this as a separate issue from the Heathrow Expansion.I am just one resident affected by night flights which start landing at 4.30 am every morning. I am woken by them every morning at 4.30 a.m. and cannot get back to sleep because then every 90 secs there is another flight going over. It's not the average time that is important, but each individual one.These are scheduled flights and why should 100 or so people on each plane cause this disturbance every day to thousands of residents? They should reschedule them to arrive after 7.00 a.m.Are BAA and the Airlines contravening any agreements, regulations or guidelines? Are they causing enough damage to the quality of life and health of residents that there are legal instruments to stop these flights now?How would one go about testing this?Who would you appeal to? Would it include:- The European Union- Current UK government regulations....?I read on the Chiswick forum that people in Ealing are in the process of seeking a judicial review of these. Did you hear of this?If not stopped they will just increase the period and frequency.RegardsDuncan Walker

Duncan Walker ● 6375d

"It doesn't sound to me as if they are strongly coming out against the expansion, more going through the motions of 'a survey', maybe a similar tactic to the government and their 'survey'"Absolutely - spot on!

Steve Taylor ● 6376d

It doesn't sound to me as if they are strongly coming out against the expansion, more going through the motions of 'a survey', maybe a similar tactic to the government and their 'survey'.Here is the article:http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23436834-details/Husband+and+wife+MPs+lead+Heathrow+protest/article.do"Husband and wife MPs lead Heathrow protestElizabeth Hopkirk, Evening Standard11.02.08 A junior minister is taking on the Government over its expansion plans for Heathrow airport. Health minister Ann Keen, a former aide to Gordon Brown, has come out against plans for a third runway. She and her husband Alan Keen, Labour MPs for neighbouring constituencies in Hounslow, have launched a survey on Heathrow to rival the Government's consultation. They are concerned the Department for Transport is not listening to the views of people living near the airport. In a move described by anti-expansion campaigners as hugely embarrassing to the Government, the couple spent thousands of pounds on a four-page advertisement wrapped around their local free newspaper, headlined "Plane mad or economic sense?" They are encouraging constituents to complete a freepost survey asking for their views. Mrs Keen said her constituents in Brentford and Isleworth had complained the government consultation was difficult to complete. She told the Evening Standard: "It is my duty to do everything I can to ensure residents' voices are heard." Her website states: "Ann opposes a third runway in principle, but as an MP must listen to the economic arguments made in its favour." She will send the poll results to the Department for Transport, and has asked Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly to extend the 27February consultation deadline so last month's British Airways crash-landing can be considered. The couple, who live under the flightpath in Brentford, have campaigned against night flights and only supported growth within existing boundaries. Mr Keen, MP for Feltham and Heston, wrote in the advert: "I believe the limit has been reached." The Department for Transport said people could get help with the - consultation by calling 0845 600 4170 or emailing heathrowconsultation @dft.gsi.gov.uk"

Duncan Walker ● 6376d

Its official - The Keens are "Leading the Protest"It says so in the Standard.

Steve Taylor ● 6376d

The 4 page wrapper around last weeks INFORMER cost £3500 ish.I have met the sales lady.

Jim Lawes ● 6376d

Big splash in tonights Evening Standard about the Keens and all the work they are doing on the heathrow expansion and the money they have spent on full page ads etc.

Steve Taylor ● 6376d

I totally agree with your suggestion Duncan that perhaps the issue of early morning disturbances (Night flights) should be tackled as a separate issue..and if Chiswickians are making a legal challenge about them ..that's goodo.Mrs Keen in recent times claimed a victory about Night Flights because she was able to stop the new 6 year agreement between the Airlines, BAA and The DSfT from increasing the "average allowance" from 16 to 18.... that is 5800 before 6am each year being increased to 6400 and more.The question about the monitoring of early morning noise levels as raised by Steve seems to be a grey area. I believe it was Tim who suggested that the recordings happen but are not examined. (like recording TV programmes but then not watching them!)I'm sure I've recently read that the Authorities would issue a penalty fine to any aircraft that produced excessive noise in the 4.30am to 6am slot. It's all a bit grey, not clear. It needs buttoning up. I like the suggestion that Hounslow Council should install its own monitors.Both Cllr Barabara Reid and Mrs Ann Keen MP live under these pre-dawn flight paths! Why should a flight from Nigeria or Ghana be allowed to fly over at that crazy hour and disturb our deep sleep? There are reports that the 5800 allowance per annum is exceeded without us being aware!Since her election in 1997 Mrs Keen MP has failed us in this big issue...unless her Government's solid stance is the excuse.

Jim Lawes ● 6376d

So if BAA are not recording the noise of aircraft landing, then either they should be made to do that, or better still, the London Borough of Hounslow and other boroughs should install noise monitoring equipment on key representative buildings across the boroughs. They will need data access to the flight information to tie up each noise occurrence with the particular flights. Then the BAA and airlines can be policed properly.

Duncan Walker ● 6376d

According to another post on this forum the noise from inbound flights is not a consideration for the expansion and it is not necessary for the BAA to monitor or supply details of noise pollution in inbound noise. Only outbound flights are being taken into consideration. How ridiculous can it get!!??

Steve Taylor ● 6376d

I am just one resident affected by these flights which start at 4.30 am every morning. I am woken by them every morning at 4.30 a.m. and cannot get back to sleep because then every 90 secs there is another flight going over. It's not the average time that is important, but each individual one.These are scheduled flights and why should 100 or so people on each plane cause this disturbance every day to thousands of residents? They should reschedule them to arrive after 7.00 a.m.Are BAA and the Airlines contraveneing any agreements, regulations or guidelines? Are they causing enough damage to the quality of life and health of residents that there are legal instruments to stop these flights now?How would one go about testing this?Who would you appeal to? Would it include:- The European Union- Current UK government regulations....?I read on the Chiswick forum that people in Ealing are in the process of seeking a judicial review of these. Doe anybody know of this?Has LBH or any resident here sought to stop these flights through formal legal action?If not stopped they will just increase the period and frequency.

Duncan Walker ● 6376d

Thanks Jim, I intend to be there. Also I have in my diary the end-of-consultation rally at Westminster on 25th Feb. It would be great if we could have a boat carrying the LBH contingent down to Westminster, maybe with banners and a jazz band playing as we arrive at the Westminster steps?!!"End-of-Consultation Rally Central Hall, Westminstercorner of Tothill St and Storey’s Gate (Westminster and St James’s Park tube stations)25th February 2008, 7pmThe rally to come to! It is a great chance to show the breadth of opposition there is to the expansion proposals.Bring yourself! No charge! Bring your friends!Be part of the thousands of voices saying ‘No’!A wide range of speakers! Live Music! Campaign videos!Speakers already confirmed include:Mark Lynas, climate change specialist and author of three books on the subjectPeter Ainsworth MP, Shadow Secretary of State for the EnvironmentCaroline Lucas MEP, Principal Speaker for the Green PartyJohn McDonnell MP, Labour MP for Hayes and HarlingtonBrian Paddick, Liberal Democrat candidate for London MayorCouncillor Barbara Reid, Hounslow Council cabinet member, representing the 2M group of local authoritiesLeo Murray, Plane StupidGeraldine Nicholson, Chair No Third Runway Action GroupJohn Stewart, Chair HACANChair of the event: Baroness Jenny Tonge"

Duncan Walker ● 6376d

I have a leaflet..green in colour!..advertising a forthcoming meeting in Isleworth Thursday 21st February at 7.30pm at the IWMC in St John's Road. ALL ARE WELCOME.Top speakers again:** John Stewart of HACAN** Barbara Reid (Hounslow Council lead member for Aviation)** Roger Wiltshire (Secretary General, British Air Transport Association)----------------------------Mary Macleod (Conservative Parliamentary Candidate)to Chair the meeting.""ALL ARE WELCOME""So, another date for your diaries.

Jim Lawes ● 6377d

Just rereading the ealing.gov.uk website it states that "a number of councils affected by night flights launched a judicial review of the night flight regime, this is awaiting a hearing date".I don`t know if this is designed to curtail the 16 flights per night or to stop future increases.Sorry if this is old hat to the thread but just wanted to clarify.

Robert Darke ● 6382d

The Venue Hire page for the Paul Robeson Theatre says it caters for 20 to 280.Will it be big enough ?

Tim Henderson ● 6385d

First flight over BNrentford Dock this morning was 4.30am.Virgin Atlantic from Hong Hong.

Neil Chippendale ● 6385d

An opportunity to ask lots and lots of questions?

Jim Lawes ● 6386d

If you enter the words NIGHT FLIGHT into the Forum Search box you'll find messages and threads going back over 3 years on Heathrow matters.I feel that with all the exchanges of Forum messages on TW8 and W4, the input of several key people with technical research abilities, the writings and speeches of HACAN and others, listening to the questions raised at meetings...we are all now better informed to ask key questions and not be fobbed off.This is why Mrs Keen MP should become available to us for intense questioning and to hear her guidance. We need to check how well versed she is in this expansive and complicated subject...which is so important for our futures.Continous noise from aircraft on two or three flightpaths are not wanted. Arrivals before 6am....5800 a year.. are not wanted. Enough is enough. We should not allow "suits" who have no real idea of what we are suffering to inflick more or the same on us.That BAA Stategy Director on TV the other evening needs to be grilled again thoroughly...by us! Who can arrange it?

Jim Lawes ● 6388d

Its clear to me that these limits are too generous, many like me under the initial impression that night flights would only be allowed in unusual circumstances such as extreme weather delays or an aircraft crash where our natural tolerance and understanding make allowances. I`m appalled that there are scheduled flights operating within 2330-0600rs and backbone needs to be shown by all Committees and Quangos. In my experience good committee members will listen to longstanding residents.

Robert Darke ● 6388d

The Consultative Committee have no power and little influence on the matter of reducing night flights. There was a government consultation a few years ago, following which the Secretary of State for Transport announced in 2006 the limits to the year 2012. HACAN ClearSkies Chair John Stewart commented on the announcement, “For our members, every night flight is one too many. We would like to see a complete ban. But this announcement is something of a climbdown. The Government had been talking about increasing night flights before 6am. It shows how much pressure it has been under from local residents and from an increasing number of MPs.”

Richard Jennings ● 6388d

Without having had time to read the links provided by Richard and Jim I would like to suggest that the members of the committee are sent a straightforward email asking for a reduction in night flights and in the seasonal quota due to noise disturbance.Better still if a councillor or longstanding resident is able to stand up and make this simple request personally at the meeting. Whilst many are grappling with new proposals it won`t hurt to apply some pressure in the opposite direction!

Robert Darke ● 6388d

Just to clarify Jim,Cllr Shirley Fisher is just a Deputy on this committee in case one of the other Councillors cannot attend though she has been a few times of her own accord.The notes do make interesting reading indeed,especially the part regarding members of the public can be removed etc etc!

Paul Fisher ● 6388d

I'm on one of those early flights.....Sorry

Neil Chippendale ● 6388d

Here is the Agenda for the meeting today (wednesday) at which Mr Fitzgerald may or may not be able to attend.Interesting to see that in addition to Cllr Carey, Cllr Ruth Cadbury, Cllr Shirley Fisher..and Cllr Felicity Barwood are also on this Committee. And the public can attend too..but see the notes!http://www.lhr-acc.org/documents/28Age30Jan.pdf

Jim Lawes ● 6389d

An hour ago at the Albany Road fish and chip shop(!)I stumbled across a copy of the BRENTFORD AND CHISWICK INFORMER (!) for 25th January and on page 5 it reports on a recent meeting of this Committee ..whose members include Cllr Peter Carey (Osterley and Spring Grove ward).It's reported that Committee Members, who include top Heathrow officers, struggled to answer many of the 11 questions and more being asked of the public. Even Cllr Carey was foxed. The Informer says:The Committee will meet IN PUBLIC again on 30th January when the Aviation Minister Jim Fitzpatrick will be present to discuss the final draft of HACC's response to the Consultative Document. !!!It's open to the public ???Have a look at the HACC website and the Agenda's for meeting being held..which might have appealed to many of us/those who are trying to get to grips with this big issue!Copy and Paste.http://tinyurl.com/36u6wu

Jim Lawes ● 6389d

"Presume limits are presented for parliamentary approval by the Dft?"The current limits were certainly presented to Parliament in the form of a written Ministerial Statement[1] on 6 June 2006, backed up by a detailed DfT paper[2]. The statement ends by saying "The restrictions will be implemented by notice under section 78 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982." The Act says[3] that the Secretary of State may, after consultation, impose restrictions to limit aircraft noise "by a notice published in the prescribed manner". This suggests that specific parliamentary approval is not required.BAA make seasonal reports on the operation of the quota systemt to the Heathrow Airport Consultative Committee (and presumably also to the DfT).[1] http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060606/wmstext/60606m0002.htm#06060648000029 [search for "night"][2] http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/aviation/environmentalissues/nighthgs/pdfnightflying06[3] http://tinyurl.com/3yfj8t

Richard Jennings ● 6389d

Length of Aircraft Noise Disturbance. ("LAND")With mixed mode on two parallel runways one can forsee continous noise all day perhaps?Take some LAND measurements yourself if you are able..and see if my 60 secs/20 secs measurements are often true. You should certainly experience some 50secs/30 seconds occurrences.

Jim Lawes ● 6389d

Quite difficult to keep an accurate view of night flights because flights arriving before 0655hrs are already dropped from this mornings BAA listing.Also with the nightly variance would require some dedication to keep a seasonal tally.Presume limits are presented for parliamentary approval by the Dft?

Robert Darke ● 6389d

"Looking at tomorrow mornings flights there are twenty scheduled to arrive before 0600hrs, starting at 0430hrs and more than the permitted sixteen."I think you may have double-counted a couple of code-share flights which were not adjacent in the list. I make it 18 flights scheduled to arrive before 06:00, of which 14 are currently expected before 06:00, 1 afterwards, and 3 not yet forecast. However there are two delayed arrivals this evening which should also count.The 16 per night is an approximate seasonal average, so the actual number per night will vary from day to day. The limits are imposed per season (winter and summer, defined by the start and end of BST), e.g. 2550 flights during this winter season.

Richard Jennings ● 6390d

Looking at tomorrow mornings flights there are twenty scheduled to arrive before 0600hrs, starting at 0430hrs and more than the permitted sixteen. Is this because of a further inroad into our sleeping hours? I notice that departures do not start until 0600hrs but with relaxation into mixed mode can easily see the mixing of arrivals and departures before six in the morning which we must prevent!(CX251 expected 0535)

Robert Darke ● 6390d

Good point Richard about higher aircraft..longer noise.No wonder the topic is on the Putney Forum as well. Indeed their MP has reported to the Putnet Website the outcome of her visit to see the DfT.Calling Mrs Keen MP, calling Mrs Keen MP.PS: Did you see that Tim has asked for a meeting with Mrs Keen MP at her next local surgery? That should be challenging for....

Jim Lawes ● 6391d

Richard..Perhaps we can given those noise measurements a name.. for the first time ever!! Blinking Aircraft Noise Duration. (The BAND figures?).Secondly: Sounds from aircraft make a varying scale of noises like an untuned orchestra. Then silence..then the timpani comes in finally with your "reverse thrust"!How can each arriving aircraft be awarded a score based on the excellence (for us) of the engine noise. The best aircraft might score 2 points and Cathey Pacific at 4.40am say 9 points..perhaps! I've never realised that BAND figures were so important to the quality of lives in this Borough. Has nobody ever taken or questioned these BAND measurements before.And then the Sound score. Maybe equipment could be installed in my garden! So we can institute 2 measurements away from dodgy BA< BAA and DFT manipulation!BAA's Strategy Director, who was on the tele the other evening (thanks Dave Jervis W4.com), should be severely challenged.

Jim Lawes ● 6391d

"I've been in the garden with my stopwatch this morning."Interesting measurements. Jim. I suspect that the reason why communities further from the airport such as Putney and Wandsworth can seem more concerned about noise is that with the planes being higher, the noise goes on for longer. Hence, particularly for those living between the flight paths to the two runways, it must seem like a continuous noise all day.Incidentally, I've noticed sometimes that 2 or 3 minutes after an aircraft has passed me in Chiswick, I can hear the roar of reverse thrust after it lands. It's not particularly loud, but on a quiet evening, there's a momentary distraction until I realise what the sudden noise is.

Richard Jennings ● 6391d

Jim,Dr. Rhodes probably welcomed (like many of the suits) someone to talk to , to relieve them of the boredom - but enjoy is probably putting it a bit strong. I don't think my questions were particularly challenging and if I had researched properly, I would have known that he was the author of the Technical Documenthttp://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/heathrowconsultation/technicalreports/futurenoiseestimates/and could have challenged him on the map (Fig 4.2 Noise exposure changes for 2030 R3 'alternating mode' relative to 2002) Stephen Browne has kindly put up at http://www.brentfordcc.org.uk/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29For some reason (deliberate misrepresentation ?) the red areas that are noisier are only shown if they are within a 57db contour (and so don't extend to Chiswick / Southall and various other places). The blue areas that are supposed to be quieter than 2002 are shown wherever !CDA does not and will not help anyone west of Barnes (so neither you, nor I nor Brentford will reap benefit).The bike is faster, cheaper and healthier than anything else to get to Central London and it has the advantages of reliability and the possibility of stopping at anything interesting that one comes across.( I hadn't appreciated the building works and congestion taking place at Sloane Street /Brompton Road junction in Knightsbridge or the growth in the number of tents at Brian Haw's camp in Parliament Square.)Another report of the Westminster exhibition (!) is athttp://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/climate/airfixed-the-governments-sham-consultation-on-heathrow-20080125and maybe explains the van of policemen which was lurking outside the Queen Elizabeth Centre

Tim Henderson ● 6391d

I would guess that the cost is in the analysis of any data that is produced. Unless the system is attached to all the other info associated with the flight it is cumbersome to extract useful information. That is why I think the best option is to get the noise info built into Webtrak for direct access by the public.How about this sales spiel from Lochard, the webtrak suppliers :"Noise management solutions must deliver information in a user-friendly manner, so lay people, untrained in acoustics or noise management terminology, can appreciate its impartiality and independence. It is this information that will arbitrate between the airport and the community, ensuring mutual accountability to set agreements and standards. It must become an empowering tool for both the airport and the community; ensuring noise impact reduction strategies are modelled on accurate and reliable information, accessible to all stakeholders."http://www.lochard.com/content/view/2/19/I would like some mild pressure to go onto the pilots and airlines to operate their planes well and quietly. How about auctioning off the worst 10% of noisy slots each year? You either pay a fortune to keep operating noisily - or you invest in pilot training and aircraft to keep the neighbours happy ?Making information public could exert useful influence to improve the noise climate.(On a related note, I came across a presentation on the different levels of pollutants produced by different aircraft at Heathrow.http://www.cate.mmu.ac.uk/saaq/presentations/Carslaw.pdfAt face value Virgin Atlantic B747-400 produce less than 60% of the pollution on take-off as British Airways B747-400. I don't know why, but it would help if BA could be as good as Branson's lot. Name and shame the noisy airlines, say I)

Tim Henderson ● 6391d

If BAA and the Government are not interested in recording and monitoring noise of aircraft landing, should the London Borough of Hounslow and other affected councils, install their own noise monitors on certain buildings in the borough? We would then not be duped by those parties hell-bent on Heathrow expansion at all costs.Would this cost much to do?

Duncan Walker ● 6391d

I've been in the garden with my stopwatch this morning.We know that aircraft fly over over every 65-95 seconds..but the real disturbance is the noise ..not the view! I've never seen statistics before like the ones I have recorded during the past 15 minutes. Sometimes silence in the skies above us only lasts for 15-20 seconds...before the next flight can be heard approaching.Aircraft one: 65 secs of NOISE then 22 seconds of silence!Aircraft two: 43 secs of NOISE then 13 seconds of silence!Aircraft three: 55 secs of NOISE then 16 seconds of silence!Aircraft four: 65 secs of NOISE then 37 seconds of silence!(big Virgin aircraft that one)Aircraft five 64 secs of NOISE then ..I went in and put kettle on!!So: when we are talking about curtailing..or better still banning.. night flights..its not just the number of aircraft but the flippen extended row/noise as well!Mrs Keen MP! Where are you?

Jim Lawes ● 6391d

Dr Rhodes would have enjoyed meeting someone who had well researched the subject and could ask challenging questions..and for that Tim you are to be much thanked on behalf of the local community... the NO!s anyway!On this bright sunny Sunday, I'm up early for a change and have much noticed the aircraft passing over..and the fact that the noise lasts for some 62 secs in some cases..when standing in the garden with a stop watch. Then the noise of the next aircraft starts with a short while. I'm going to some more stop watch tests shortly.Whether the introduction of CDA (Continual Descent Approach) will reduce the length of the noise disturbance I have my doubts!Thanks for the report of your visit to Westminster... you must have cycled there then!! ?

Jim Lawes ● 6391d

I duly nipped along to the Queen Elizabeth Conference Centre (opposite Westminster Abbey) to catch the last of the government exhibitions. Very palatial (and probably expensive - one of the commissionaires prevented me from locking the bike to the security barrier but radioed down to the security staff in the underground carpark to let me in to use the bike stand there - you didn't get that kind of service at Montague Road, Hounslow !)When I went, it was very quiet - probably 25 official suits on duty with only 15 members of the public.Dr Darren Rhodes of the noise team from CAA had plenty of time to chat and I mentioned my responses from BAA. He gave his opinion that from my description it appeared that BAA were being deliberately obstuctive. I think he said that the noise complaints office at Heathrow had to operate according to regulations imposed by the Department of Transport but there had been some agreement/memorandum of understanding relatively recently which had allowed them to reduce the amount of individual explanation provided for each complaint and to resort to standard letters. Thus the provision of charts showing CDA profiles for individual flights was probably no longer done. (Anyone feel like generating a Freedom of Information request on discussions between DfT and BAA on changes to operation of this service ?)However, it was probably not completely true that landing noise was not monitored. The microphones spread out in arcs at the ends of the runways to catch excessive take-off noise are not turned off when landings occur and the information is still captured. (It is just that no-one will routinely do a daily check on it - a bit like me recotding TV programmes and never watching the recordings). The data from the microphone readings is used to produce the annual noise contour maps. So a huge database exists of each flight together with its associated aircraft type and these are aggregated to show what the average noise from a particular plane at that sensor is. This is then combined with a typical mix of flights for a summer's day to produce the contour map. (The CAA mobile noise sensors are moved around to catch data from other locations to feed into the process as well as the fixed noise monitors.)Darren suggested that if I wanted the noise information for CX251 I should write to the Department of Transport. (He said I could also try the CAA, but he reckoned DfT would be better in the first instance.) He confirmed that Schipol have the noise sensors associated with their version of Webtrak and it would be technically feasible to include this at a cost at Heathrow. Presumably it would need a bit of pressure from residents and campaign groups to push for it, but it won't do any harm to mention it in my letter .He confirmed that most communities west of Barnes will not get any benefit from the much vaunted policy of increasing the adoption of Continual Descent Approach as planes are then on the flightpath and not using their throttles to change engine power to maintain particular heights. He also warned about putting too much trust in the speeds recorded on Webtrak (I guess they are done by calculation of the change in position in a particular time interval) but then accepted my point that the variation in speeds for CX251 (109 knots over Syon Park and 134 knots a bit later over Hounslow) was rather more than the the half a dozen BA flights either side of it with 125 knots +/- 5 knots.Since getting back, I have found one of the papers co-authored by Darren which gives information on a typical landing showing height/speed and engine power. Maybe of interest.http://www.atmseminar.org/all-seminars/3rd-usa-europe-atm-r-d-seminar/paper_107

Tim Henderson ● 6391d

Tim,What na amazing revelation..that BBA don't measure the noise made by arriving aircraft..especially those passing over brentford, Isleworth and Hounslow between 4.30am and 6am each morning. It means that that 40 seconds of noise disturbance by each flight is allowed to happen unchallenged by BAA.My friend Dave Jervis on the W4 Forum has posted the following link. The BAA's Strategy Director was being interviewed. "Noise levels would stay the same or less than year 2002." Well how will they know?As I believe John Stewart said at Tuesday's Hounslow meeting.. Concorde was flying in 2002 and so those upped noise measurements will be used to their advantage.Our NO! protests have got to penetrate these dodgy acclaims. Where's Mrs Keen MP when her help and advice is most needed?http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7210000/newsid_7210000/7210084.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1

Jim Lawes ● 6393d

Well, in my opinion this is quite ridiculous. Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought the major concern (in this area anyway) was the noise caused by landing aircraft not departing aircraft? If the BAA and Government are comfortable with only having departing aircraft noise monitored they are clearly completely out of touch with the reality or severity of the situation. This to me is a major reason why any thoughts of further expansion should be shelved until conclusive records of ALL aircraft noise is produced for analysis. Current Government policy on this issue is not fit for purpose. Tim is it possible for you to post this revelation on all the west London and Richmond sites and forums as I am not sure that all Cllrs and MPs are aware of this?

Steve Taylor ● 6393d

The brush-off continues :----------------------------------------------------------Dear Mr HendersonThank you for your email enquiry below.As explained in previous correspondence, BAA does not monitor arrivingaircraft. The Government policy was, and remains that setting noise limitsfor arrivals would not be feasible, therefore if you require arrivingaircraft information you should contact the Department for Transport (DfT).The noise monitors that we have in place monitor departing aircraft only.As also explained, Continuous Descent Approach (CDA) would not apply toyou, as arriving aircraft would already be established on the InstrumentLanding System (ILS) over your area.The role of the Operations Communications Office (OCO) is to record anycomplaints and then explain how residents are affected, who is responsiblefor the policies involved and the measures used to reduce disturbance, asBAA does not monitor arriving aircraft, we are unable to help you on thisoccasion.Your sincerelyDD - LHR Noise Complaints-----------------------------------------------------------Oh well ! I'll have to see what the nice people in the noise team at CAA have to say at the Central London Consultation exhibition tomorrow. I thought BAA had a duty imposed on them to monitor noise caused by aircraft at Heathrow.......

Tim Henderson ● 6393d

Well pursued Tim. So they don't monitor the noise from incoming aircraft!! ;0(Having gone to bed early last night, I found myself wide awake for some reason at 4.20am this morning. It was just so peaceful..no noise at all.After 10minutes or so the first rumble could be heard. The sound of the first aircraft coming in lasted a full 35 seconds.(I'm good at counting time in my head in seconds..I need to for my work!).I then noticed the second aircraft's sound lasting 35 seconds as well. The third aircraft caused me 40 seconds of noise disturbance.So, later in the morning or day..when we are talking about aircraft coming over every 75 seconds... what is acually happening is that the noise starts at 0.0secs, ends at 35.0 secs, then there is a 40.secs silent gap and then the noise starts again.No wonder some people describe aircraft coming over every 40 seconds!! It's noise every 40 seconds,and the aircraft themselves every 75 seconds...if you get what I mean!Thanks again Tim.

Jim Lawes ● 6393d

It would be helpful if it could be arranged for a group of informed local people had a meeting with our MPs,Mr and Mrs Keen, to get some information from them about the Governments position...and to ask them lots of questions to be sure that they are aware of a wide range of Heathrow data in our heads.It would have been very benificial for them if they had been present at the Civic Centre on Tuesday to hear the speech given by the Hillingdon lady Geraldine Nicholson (NOTRAG) for starters.This Heathrow matter is of serious concern to many people, and there are many questions to be asked. It is not suffice for Mrs Keen just to ask us to write to her with our concerns. I would like a question and answer session with her..together with others... in a none heckling way.. to find out what's what's. She is our representative..isn't she?

Jim Lawes ● 6393d

Excellent Tim. Would be interested in their response to that.

Steve Taylor ● 6394d

My follow up email on CX251 on 27th December :Talking to a member of the CAA Noise Team at the Brentford Heathrow Consultation exhibition about the monitoring of landing flight noise, he confirmed that the noise monitors intended to police take-off noise would be running continually and it should be possible to seek the trace for this flight from the northern-most of the monitors and compare it with the landing flights on either side. It is appreciated that this monitor is slightly off-line for the northern runway and rather closer to the airport than Isleworth, but I would be interested to see the data that you have for landing noise. Indeed he mentioned that the Schipol equivalent of webtrak has the capability of showing noise sensor information associated with flights in combination with the speed/height/position data that the Heathrow system has.He also suggested that I should seek the CDA profile of CX251 on this date from yourselves and I would be grateful for a copy of this together with your confirmation that it was picked out as being a non-compliant flight and will be reported in the monthly monitoring survey.------------------------------------------Their (BAA Operations Communications Team)reply:.......I must reiterate that the Department for Transport imposes noise limits for departing aircraft only. There are currently no noise limits for arriving aircraft, this is for safety and operational reasons.The issue of CDA would not apply in your area as aircraft are already established on the Instrument Landing System (ILS). The stage of flight where the increased use of CDA canimprove the noise climate is from the holding stack to the joining point (of the ILS).I assure you that BAA Heathrow is committed to improving the noise climate around Heathrow and we will continue to work with the airlines, Air Traffic Control and representatives from our local communities to explore further ways of achieving this.Yours sincerely.......------------------------------I can't say that I am impressed !I have sent them back :Thank you for your letter of 23 January 2008.Can I take it from your reply that you are unwilling / unable to provide me with noise information relating to CX251 on the morning of 27th December 2008 ? I understand that there are no noise limits for arriving aircraft and you do not fine noisy landing aircraft. Nevertheless, I believe that you have the duty of monitoring the noise conditions around the airport and I believe that that flight was atypical. Please can I have the information or a statement from you saying that you cannot or will not provide it.Similarly I would be grateful for information on the descent of CX251. The webtrak information seems to imply abrupt changes in speed once established on the glidepath and I believe that this resulted in atypical and irritating noise.Please can I have the information or a atatement saying that you cannot or will not provide it.It would be helpful to have an email response tomorrow if possible so that I could discuss them with the representatives of the CAA Noise team at the Central London Heathrow Consultation Exhibition on Saturday.

Tim Henderson ● 6394d

"Have you ever seen Mrs Keen MP? Or even spoken with her?"Yes, I have indeed met Ann Keen several times. I have met Mary Mcloud once.

Steve Taylor ● 6394d

That's a rumour I heard.The report in today's Hounslow Chronicle about Mr and Mrs Keen's expenses...mentions the couple saying that they both work 60 hours a week....FROM MONDAY AFTERNOON till FRIDAY MORNING!! Those hours seem compatible with getting out of London at weekends!What they do is, I suppose, their business. What surprises me is that during my busy-ness during the past 10 years in the Borough (in which I have lived since 1939) I have only seen them once! That was at the most recent General Election Count at the Civic Centre.Have you ever seen Mrs Keen MP? Or even spoken with her?

Jim Lawes ● 6394d

I heard some rumour that Ann Keen wasn't intending to stand again as she wants to retire to her farm in Wales. Any truth in that?

Steve Taylor ● 6394d

It was noteworthy that Ann Keen MP for Brentford and Isleworth once against distinguished herself by her absence from the recent meetings in Chiswick and Hounslow -as did her husband Alan, MP for Feltham and Heston. Although Mrs Keen says she is opposed to the Labour Government's present plans to expand Heathrow she has in the past supported all previous Heathrow expansions. Nor does she have a strong record on opposing night and early morning flights. If in fact she lives in Covent Garden, that is understandable as she is not as affected by them as we are !As a Parliamentary Under Secretary at the Department of Health, and therefore a very junior member of the Government, she will not be able to vote against the Government's proposals unless she is prepared to lose her job.That's unlikely.Mary Macleod, the Conservative Prospective Parliamentary Candidate, in contrast was at both meetings and spoke at the Hounslow meeting to strongly oppose the plans.Let's hope we have a chance to elect Mary as our MP so she can vote on the issue before the plans are approved by Parliament.

David Giles ● 6394d

I`m surprised at the allowed quota of night flights at 16 per night, verifiable on the very clear Ealing website, which works out to 5840 for 365 days. One can understand special measures for setbacks such as the recent crash but to have flights scheduled on a regular basis within the 2330hr-0600hrs seems wrong to me. I`ve shown the 2mgroup.org.uk website as its the alliance of the twelve local authorities representing 2 million residents and has links to the councils, Hacan & Dft.and which I`ve found helpful this week. I do hope that residents arranging bookings through Heathrow, local travel agents, or secretaries will decline flights arriving or departing between 2330hrs and 0600hrs!

Robert Darke ● 6395d

http://www.heathrowairport.com/assets//B2CPortal/Static%20Files/New2005Booklet.pdfThanks for that Stephen.. a most interesting Report.I'm not sure if it has been brought to our attention before..but it ought to now stay on our desks as a book of constant reference!You will have noticed that on both TW8.com and W4.com there is already a bunch of fine posters.. with a seeming abundance of technical know how...who are debating and informing us well..and keeping this big issue to the fore.Many of us just stand aside but read these wonderful contributions to the debate..from Richard and Tim and several more. Thank you for keeping the ball rolling.

Jim Lawes ● 6398d

Whilst slightly behind the times, this report from the BAA website goes to describe night flight restrictions (page 35) then goes on to discuss noise complaint handling (page 44) but I thought page 46 interesting - watch out Michael Fletcher - you are now on the list !http://www.heathrowairport.com/assets//B2CPortal/Static%20Files/New2005Booklet.pdf

Stephen Browne ● 6398d

I was wrong when I said that there was a succession of plane landings throughout the night on Thursday night/Friday morning.There was a gap of 1 hour 59 minutes for me to sleep between 02:33 and 04:32.The webtrak record shows the following numbers of flights in the hourly intervals and the individual landing approaches over Brentford :12am 11 BD693 00:13 ; BD134 00:171am 4 EI192 1:08 : BA481 01:282am 4 BA6985 2:20 : BD82C 02:333am 1 (takeoff at 3:07)4am 10 BA026 4:32 : BA012Y 4:35 :CX251 04:38 :BA032 4:41 : BA012 4:43 : BA212 4:54 : VS201 4:585am 16 SV113 5:01.........I do hope that the potential suffering of the passengers on EI192, BA481, BA6985 and BD82C that was relieved was so much worse than the disturbance to the citizens of West London that suffered in their place.

Tim Henderson ● 6398d

"But the simulation isn't working for me (I wonder if they have disabled it ? Or is it me ?)"I had the same problem. They seem to have hidden every flight for that day.

Richard Jennings ● 6399d

The webtrak data for Heathrow flights on 17th January is now supposed to be available athttp://lhr.webtrak-lochard.com/template/index.htmlBut the simulation isn't working for me (I wonder if they have disabled it ? Or is it me ?) so I can't see (yet) what were takeoffs and what were landings.The histogram of flights does show the sharp decrease in activity after the undershoot event :11am 85 flights (takeoffs and landings)12am 711 pm 32and in the 11:00 to 11:59 period11pm 47It will be interesting when the data for Friday morning appears (tomorrow ?) to see how the landings extended into the night.

Tim Henderson ● 6399d

Good point you've hit the nail on the head.I heard a plane at 11:30 last night.

Michael Fletcher ● 6399d

I thought there was a succession of flights throughout the night last night. I'll be interested to see what webtrak reports. I wonder who gives the permission and whether it does come out of the quota ? Having been a grumpy bear-with-a-sore-head all day today I don't feel terribly sympathetic to the "serious hardship or suffering of passengers."Quote from the BBC news report I mentioned at the top of this thread :Aviation Minister Jim Fitzpatrick said: "In exceptional circumstances, the airport has the power to disregard night flights from the movements and quota limits, set by the Secretary of State."For example, when security alerts, severe weather conditions or prolonged air traffic control disruption could lead to delays likely to cause serious hardship or suffering to passengers."

Tim Henderson ● 6400d

Yes, I heard that 1.30am one too Michael. Thankfully it wasn't Cathey Pacific!

Jim Lawes ● 6400d

According to Skynews BAA were granted permission to keep the airport open after the curfew. They allegedly told affected residents that thier would be late arrivals and departures.

Neil Chippendale ● 6400d

There was an arrival at 1:30 this morning

Michael Fletcher ● 6400d

"I presume the Cathay flight is allowed under a permitted night quota but I`m surprised its allowed on a regular scheduled basis."Yes, any plane (with a few exceptions) that lands between 23:30 and 06:00 counts towards the quotas for night movements and night noise. The quotas are set for each winter or summer season, and average out at about 16 flights per night. Consequently, roughly that number of flights are scheduled to arrive every morning before 06:00.(It's around 20 this morning (Friday), probably inflated as a result of delays following Thursday's crash.)Re your terminolgy: ETA is expected time of arrival, which is published on the web by BAA, is kept updated, and I think is fairly accurate. If you mean published in the timetable, that is the scheduled time, and I don't think that post-06:00 scheduled arrivals are actually made earlier often, as it would result in an unplanned usage of that airline's share of the quota.

Richard Jennings ● 6401d

One of the problems regards the Cathy flight is that it has to leave Hong Kong before the curfew begins. This means that it will always land before 6.00am Its the same with the filghts out of SAydney. Curfew begins at 11.00pm so last take-off for LHR is 10.30pm. They get in at approx 5.30am.

Neil Chippendale ● 6401d

Richard, Thanks for the link. Do you and others feel that there is a fair amount of jumping the gun with arrivals before 0600hrs whose published ETAs are shown as six onwards? I presume the Cathay flight is allowed under a permitted night quota but I`m surprised its allowed on a regular scheduled basis. If several or many are breaking 0600 everyday then its really 0500 without spin!

Robert Darke ● 6401d

"If early morning flights are coming in before 0600hrs what ETA`s are being shown by BAA/airlines in the terminal buildings? (as opposed to published timetables)"Cathay's flight CX251 is scheduled to arrive at 05:05. BAA's site* shows expected arrival times, and the ETAs for the early morning arrivals are usually posted by BAA during the previous evening after the flights have taken off. (CX251 is scheduled to leave Hong Long at 23:55 local time which is 15:55 GMT.)* http://www.heathrowairport.com then click on Flight Information, then Live Flight Arrivals.

Richard Jennings ● 6401d

I met a nice man from the Civil Aviation Authority at the Heathrow Consultation Exhibition at the Holiday Inn tonight and got chatting about monitoring landing noise / Cathay Pacific / BAA noise complaints team etc.He said that the continuous noise monitors (intended mainly for policing take-off noise) should be running permanently and so should pick up noise from landing flights. The one best suited to the northern runway landings is a bit off-line but I should still be able to request information from it. He did mention that the webtrak version for Schipol does include the noise sensor data and you can look at the noise profile for a flight in the same way as the position/velocity/height info at Heathrow.He also said that the tracking system at Heathrow monitors all landings for observation of (quiet!) Continuous Descent Approach. Those that don't do it (I think he said the trigger was greater than 2 nautical miles at constant height) get registered in a non-compliance list that gets sent out to the airlines to name and shame them every month.As far as the Cathay Pacific flight is concerned ,he suggested I should request the hard copy of the descent profile and seek the noise data from BAA.

Tim Henderson ● 6402d

Hear hear Robert!

Jim Lawes ● 6402d

I`m very concerned about any relaxation to current operating procedures, let alone a third runway, and feel that their should not be encroachment into our sleeping hours. If early morning flights are coming in before 0600hrs what ETA`s are being shown by BAA/airlines in the terminal buildings? (as opposed to published timetables)Perhaps the Cathay flight should be rescheduled!

Robert Darke ● 6403d

"04:41 this morning [12 Jan] I was awoken by a noisy flight coming down. Not sure if it was the first landing of the day though!"It was the second! The one that woke you up was BA012 from Singapore. It probably increased thrust to bring the speed up a bit as it passed over Redlees Park, Isleworth, but there was nothing really unusual about that flight. There were six flights that morning that flew over Isleworth (to the southern runway) before 5 a.m.

Richard Jennings ● 6404d

Good grief...going round in circles over TW7?Thankfully I was buried somewhere and didn't notice anything.Richard: thanks for keeping your eye on these matters when you can. Hope that you may be able to attend some of the forthcoming meetings and keep us all on the ball. Maybe you should have a meeting with Lead Member Barbara Reid..or Mary MacLeod the Conservative PPC which would be easy to arranged...if you haven't already been invited for a debriefing!!The whole debate is growing in urgency. The Government, Mr and Mrs Keen (MP's) and the Heathrow/Airline authorities seem to be our opponents..who will roll over us if we are not careful.

Jim Lawes ● 6405d

Not a night-flight, but I wondered whether anyone saw a plane (flight BA967 from Hamburg, an Airbus A319) flying a complete circle over Isleworth on Friday evening at about 18:50 on Friday 11 January?It was flying over Highgate to join the landing queue around Lewisham when suddenly it turned and headed for Kew. That's not very unusual, but WebTrak then shows that all other arriving aircraft start going round in circles! They were evidently being held clear of BA967. For some reason BA967 interrupted its descent so that it arrived over Ivybridge at 2300 ft - much too high as well as a bit too far south - and had to lose height by turning a complete circle towards Osterley Park. Jim, did you notice it going the wrong way over your house? It landed at 18:54 on runway 27L, which wasn't used again for 15 minutes, though they managed to squeeze in a few landings on 27R meanwhile. Looks like some sort of in-flight emergency.

Richard Jennings ● 6405d

This week BA's boss, Willie Walsh, has been urging us to 'embrace' the opportunities offered by a bigger Heathrow. He has 'insisted' local councils accept that expansion is vital ... (Hounslow Informer) Tens of thousands of jobs will be generated he argues. Obviously he hasn't said (or possibly the article just didn't report) how the tens of thousands of jobs will be filled. More immigration? Mr Walsh quoted a recent Populus poll which put 50% of residents in favour of expansion. It is boasted that of the 1200 residents polled only 12% said their biggest worry was aircraft noise but 36% were more concerned with crime and antisocial behaviour. ONLY 12%. If I was in the pro=expansion camp I'd be SHATTERED by this poll. 12% is HUGE considering other issues being polled. To think that 12% put aircraft noise as their BIGGEST worry. Thats 12% of people polled consider aircraft noise MORE OF AN ISSUE than being robbed, attacked, abused or even murdered and raped, Health, Education and Transport.

Steve Taylor ● 6405d

04:41 this morning I was awoken by a noisy flight coming down. Not sure if it was the first landing of the day though!

Steve Taylor ● 6406d

Thanks Richard.I've failed so far to send in my letter of complaint to Heathrow. Will try to knuckle down to the matter tomorrow.

Jim Lawes ● 6409d

"we don't monitor landing aircraft noise 'cos we can't fine them........"If you get brush-off responses that indicate that BAA aren't bothered by your complaint, you might like to report that to one of Hounslow's three representatives on the Heathrow Airport Consultative Committee, who are currently Councillors Peter Carey, Ruth Cadbury and Felicity Barwood. For more information about the committee, see www.lhr-acc.org

Richard Jennings ● 6409d

I'll try and..I'll try and make..Are you still there Mi..Mike: noted on my calendar..and hope to pop along.What's it about?"Adding.."Adding capacity at where...?It's a joke!

Jim Lawes ● 6409d

I complained to BAA and Cathay Pacific.So far, I've only had the standard response - we don't monitor landing aircraft noise 'cos we can't fine them........

Tim Henderson ● 6409d

"there is no noise limits for arriving aircraft, this is for safety and operational reasons, and therefore there is no fining system in place for arriving aircraft"While that is reasonable from a regulatory point of view, if an arriving plane is unreasonably noisy, it probably means that it is not being flown in accordance with normal guidelines, as with the Cathay Pacific flight that woke Jim up on 27 December (see my previous post in this thread). In that case it's certainly worth complaining to emphasise to BAA that this is not just an obscure technical issue, but also has a very real impact on residents who live close to the flight path. If you don't complain about specific flights like that, they'll assume you're happy.

Richard Jennings ● 6409d

Just to remind those who can attend "Adding Capacity to Heathrow Airport" meeting is at Holiday Inn, Brentford 10:00 to 18:00 16th Jan.

Michael Fletcher ● 6409d

I've just had my second response to my complaint about night flights. The first had a pack of information showing flight paths that day. The second says there's nothing that can be done about night flights "the decision to allow night flights is a policy matter for the Government". Also "there is no noise limits for arriving aircraft, this is for safety and operational reasons, and therefore there is no fining system in place for arriving aircraft"

Michael Fletcher ● 6409d

As Tim and Neil noticed..it must have been that Cathey Pacific from Hong Kong!!Thanks for that really top notch research Richard..about the throttling up of that Jumbo airliner yesterday morning. I will write to the address you suggested...about the noise initially. I wonder if they browse these local websites and thus be ready for a complaint?That 24 instead of 16 is still an issue.This morning, I was unaware that my son was on a BA flightapproaching Heathrow at 4am from Singapore. The Captain apparently announced that he had made good time across the Continents.. ..but that he didn't have permission to land until 4.32am so he's be slowing down a bit. I admit that that first aircraft this morning, the BA was quiet.This morning (Sunday 10am till 3pm) I found all of the aircraft on the Northern Approach just a noticable nuisance...maybe because the atmospheric conditions highlighted the noise. The period after 3pm was just a relief...and one shudders at the future prospect of all day non-alternating.Victor: Thanks for the Facebook Group suggestion.Bet your Australian cities don't have aircraft landing before 6am or 5am!!Richard:Thanks again.

Jim Lawes ● 6419d

Dont you just love WebTrak

Neil Chippendale ● 6420d

"This morning..27th December there was a particularly noisy aircraft going over at 5am ish which woke me up. The sound was long drawn out and it disturbed me."Jim, that was probably Cathay Pacific flight CX251 from Hong Kong, that flew past you at 05:03.The good news is that the previous 7 flights didn't wake you up!The reason that I think it was CX251 that woke you is that its speed was quite erratic. WebTrak shows that from 128 knots over Fulham, it came down to 113 over Barnes, up to 122 over Dukes Meadows, then down to 109 over Kew Gardens. (Hmm. Wonder the stall speed of that 747 was.) There was then a sustained acceleration over Syon Park and Isleworth to 134 knots, and probably the extra noise woke you up. I suggest you should complain to BAA (noise_complaints@baa.com) and point out that the handling of this plane resulted in an unacceptable degree of extra noise.

Richard Jennings ● 6420d

You can also add your name to the stop Expansion Petition on www.stopheathrowexpansion.com

Steve Taylor ● 6420d

Front page article in yesterdays BCI Times. "Scientists have found a link between heart attacks and aircraft noise.The HYENA study published by Imperial College proves a connection between prolonged exposure to air noise and being at greater risk of suffering from hypertension and heart attacks.""HACAN said the findings make cause for a total ban on night flights and that the government should stop dead in its tracks over its plans to expand Heathrow and look after the health of its people"To have your say see www.rttimes.co.uk

Steve Taylor ● 6420d

Jim I noticed Facebook has a group devoted to this.Called............Stop Heathrow expansion

Victor Mullins ● 6420d

Greetings Richard,To check those figures (16 to 24) will be most useful... using your technology.The first aircraft is just going over at 4.10am this morning.. very quiet this time..but noticable. I'm off to bed before it gets worse!!

Jim Lawes ● 6421d

"On Boxing Day morning, so I understand on good authority, 24 flights were allowed to fly into Heathrow over Brentford, Isleworth and Hounslow before 6am."I've just run WebTrak from 04:00 until after 06:00 on Boxing Day morning, and it shows 15 flights landing before 06:00. In fact all of them passed Brentford between 04:30 and 05:30. However, I notice that the histogram in the WebTrak configuration panel shows 10 flights between 04:00 and 05:00 and 24 flights between 05:00 and 06:00. I assume those totals include flights that didn't land at Heathrow, and don't get shown on the map. I've emailed BAA to ask for clarification on that point.

Richard Jennings ● 6421d

Until a 3rd runway is built it's necessarry to increase the night flight. It's a good solution as most of us sleep and won't hear them anyway (those who DOES need to install some proper windows).Hopefully the 3rd runway project can be speed up a bit.

Jorgen Molna ● 6421d

David Giles posted the following on the ChiswickW4 forum so I guess Cllr Barbara Reid should take up residents' concerns as she has been actively involved for about 20 years. Now that she is Hounslow's Lead Member for the Environment and Planning who else would be best placed to deal with Heathrow? "Conservative Councillor Barbara Reid has been consistently opposed to Heathrow Expansion many years while others such as our Labour MP Ann Keen have been equivocal, to say the least.She has been outspoken and committed on this issue for as many years as I have known her- which is probably about 20 !She certainly does not need to join the Greens or the Lib Dems in their opposition because she was opposed to Heathrow Expansion long before the Greens were invented !Conservative-led Hounslow Council is part of an all-party alliance of London Councils who represent 2 million people in the boroughs affected by Heathrow and who are opposed to Runaway 3, Terminal 6, Night Flights and the abolition of runaway alteration.The Lib Dem and Green support is welcome but it will be the mainstream parties such as the Conservatives and independently minded Labour supporters who will lead the opposition to the Labour Government's plans and, hopefully, defeat them."

Steve Taylor ● 6421d

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7013945.stmmay be relevant.It seems that the limit may be overcome.....I think they do report some info to HACC (worth keeping an eye on their meeting reports).I too was woken up on 27th and 28th (but last time I suffered and looked at webtrak to see what had done it I found that there were three in a series I hadn't registered before the four that I had !)

Tim Henderson ● 6421d

Jimi used to get woken ever day by the Cathy Pacific flight from Hong Kong. It could land anytime from approx 4.30am onwards.

Neil Chippendale ● 6422d