Forum Topic

A bridge for Brentford

Sitting on the 65 on the Richmond to Brentford bit, one finds oneself peering over the wall into Kew Gardens..a world heritage site and a place that I visit all too rarely. Even though I live just a few hundred metres from it, it may as well be 20 miles.It can take forever by bus, pointless by car, dangerous by bike and a long fume filled walk.It has occurred to me, that with all the section 106 money and the hopelessly overloaded developments imposing themselves on the locality, that we have no link to such a place as Kew gardens.Why not a footbridge from Middlesex to Surrey? A footbridge big enough for pedestrians and cyclists that crosses to the car park and  rear entrance to the gardens. All manor of grants exist to fund such a project outside of 106 fundingI've heard it mentioned by a few locals and in particular, by a chap in the Griffin and in all honesty, I've nicked his idea which he seems to have worked out most carefully, so apologies Mark, but it deserves a wider mention.Would be great though, especially being able to avoid Kew bridge.

Michael Brandt ● 6246d39 Comments

It is not fair to say that it is the County Town. Historically it is not correct. The fact that it was "considered "accepted" or "regarded" does not make it the County Town. Middlesex never had an official County Town. As you say no Warrent was ever issued. It may be nitpicking but that's history. Gillian Glegg in latest book on Brentford accepts the fact re the town.I agree that the election of the Knights (MPs) led to people calling the town the "County Town"We should all bnlame the PO for the confusion

Neil Chippendale ● 6180d

It is confusing but Brentford has been regarded as the County Town for over 200 years.It is because of the incorporation of Westminster as a City and the later incorporation of London.When the London area postal codes were decided, Brentford was left out as it was deemed the county town of Middlesex and thus could not be incorporated.This is long before the existence of the Borough of Hounslow.Brentford would have been W4, Chiswick, W5 and Ealing W6 etc. (only W1 and W2 were already in prior use)The confusion exists because of the city of London, some of which was in Middlesex and latterly, the city of Westminster also in Middlesex.Some years ago, a claim was made by Uxbridge as the county town as well as Enfield.In 1987, Chunky TV astrologer, Russell Grant researched all this and although an Uxbridge resident himself, found that the existing county town was not Uxbridge or Enfield but Brentford. He ran a campaign to save Middlesex and the county sign on Kew Bridge is a result of his campaign which had huge support from all corners of Middlesex.Below are some of the notes I had from Middlesex University Library in 1992Capital of Middlesex County : Brentford, Clerkenwell, the City of London or Westminster for different functions.New Brentford was first referred as the county town of Middlesex in 1789, on the basis that it was the location of elections of knights for the shire (or Members of Parliament) from 1701. In 1795 New Brentford (as it was then) was "considered as the county-town; but there is no town-hall or other public building" causing confusion that remains to this day. However most reference documents refer to New BrentfordMiddlesex does not have a single established historic county town, with different locations having been used for different county purposes. The County Assizes for Middlesex were held at the Old Bailey in the City of London. Until 1889 the High Sheriff of Middlesex was chosen by the City of London Corporation. The sessions house for the Middlesex Quarter Sessions was at Clerkenwell Green from the early eighteenth century. The quarter sessions at the former Middlesex Sessions House performed most of the administration of the county until the creation of the Middlesex County Council in 1889. In 1795, New Brentford was "considered as the county-town; The County Court also had a higher standing than the others in the County (probably to it's close proximity to Westminster) Middlesex County Council, which took over the administrative duties of the Quarter Sessions in 1889, was based at the Middlesex Guildhall, in Westminster. This was in the County of London, and thus outside the council's area of jurisdiction. Brentford again is the referred County Court and town.With reference to the postal district: In 1889 a County of London was created which was somewhat smaller than the postal district. Around 40 of the sub-districts created in 1917 were outside its boundary with Leyton in Essex, Ealing in Middlesex, Totteridge in Hertfordshire and Wimbledon in Surrey served by the London postal area but outside the County of London.When the London Postal District was formed in 1856 and in 1917, Brentford was accepted as the County town and was to remain Brentford, Middlesex even though neighbouring towns were to be incorporated into the London Postal area.  TW and the full postcodes were introduced from 1965-1970It's fair to say that Brentford remains the county town of Middlesex and certainly has been regarded as such for 200 years regardless of a lack of Royal warrant etc.etc.

Anthony Waller ● 6181d

Regards the County Court so did/does Staines, Willesden, Edmonton and Uxbridge and the Middlesex Guidhall Crown Court is in Westminster, although this ists in the hall of the old County admin building.

Neil Chippendale ● 6181d

It may have been taught but it was not made the offical County Town. This has been debated on this site many times. And it is wrong, sorry. Go to the London Metropolitan Archive and look at the archives of the County Council etc. It is full of letters & documents relating to this and it clearly states that it was not the County Town. Middlesex did not have one.I agree that not only was it taught in schools but companies produced china with it on it. I have about 4 different items all with the emblem and the words Brentford, County Town.Extracts from some of my documents at home."Though Brentford is considered the county town for the election of members of parliament and coroners for the county"...Gazzeter, 1868"Despite Brentford's antiquity, there were no substantial grounds for the claim that it was the county town, first made in 1789" Victoria County History of Middlesex, Vol 7"It is considered as the county town, though it possesses no town-hall nor separate jurisdiction ; it is still the place of nomination, and one of the polling places for the county".  Brentford in 1836As you see it was only ever considered a County Town

Neil Chippendale ● 6181d

Brentford has been the county town of Middlesex since the incorporation of the  Westminster as a City.As the county town, Brentford was not given a W. postal code even though Hanwell protrudes further west. Even though Brentford and Chiswick were linked by local admin, It was the county court that relates to the county status.It had and still has the County court.It is recorded as the County Town of Middlesex in the history of English Counties in the Library.I was taught this at school here in Brentford and seen various publications on this. Including one recording the charter in Chiswick library.

Michael Brandt ● 6181d

Brentford was never the County Town of Middlesex. Although the elections were called in the town the County never had a "County Town". Its for this reason that people think Brentford was the capital. The admin centre was in Westminster.

Neil Chippendale ● 6181d

"It should be a precondition of any prospective development"Presumably it's got to compete with other 106 wishes.  Below is prospective bridge for Castleford - projected cost £4.8m:-http://www.dezeen.com/2008/07/17/castleford-bridge-by-mcdowellbenedetti/

Michael Fletcher ● 6181d

It may have been active only for me that day Philip. Go to Companies House website, click on company searches and type in Brentford Regeneration Partnership. The site will show you all the documentation available, and it costs about £3 per document - so it will add up if you get the accounts for all the years it was running!

Nigel Moore ● 6181d

The problem is that the river here has not been dredged now for some 44 years.When Brentford was alive and kicking as the capital of Middlesex and the key hub for services, Gasworks, Waterworks, Docks, boatyards, Market, Railway goods yards, Canal Junction etc, The river was the catalyst for all of this and it had to be both navigable as long as possible.To allow this, the river was dredged daily to avoid the gloopy mud building up.This allowed lighter boats to work longer but also for a ferry to the southbank.So long has passed that it is difficult to even remember or envisage how the river looked in 1964 (apart from the fact it was filthy then)It would take a mammoth operation to dredge the north banks to make the river more usable again (although the mud once processed makes a superior land use product)A real shame, as the once smelly polluted river could now offer so much to Brentford and most certainly should not be reserved for the exclusiveness of developments which block or restrict public access or the view.Thats why a pedestrian / Cyclist bridge would now be a boon. It would be for the public - All of us. It need not be extravagant, but could pass over the eyot as a canopy view of it and descend into the car park of Kew Gardens (which is on public access land)It should be a precondition of any prospective development

Michael Brandt ● 6182d

Just outside the grounds by the car park alongside the river I understand has historically been a crossing point and that there exists (lapsed) permission for a row boat ferry.Goodness knows what the river authority would charge in rent for a crossing - a chain ferry is a lovely idea - but do you know they charge rent for the chains on the riverbed?  :-(

Sarah Felstead ● 6184d

One place for a crossing might be between Syon House and Kew. This could mean that people could visit these two excellent attractions as part of a single day out. Perhaps a chain ferry might be the best way to do it although there are obvious problems with other river traffic and I believe the marshland in front of Syon House is the only natural riverbank on the tidal Thames.

Mike Hardacre ● 6185d

Money and boat ???? did I miss something.Nigel I tried that link but Google cant find the site are you sure its details are right.

Philip Walsh ● 6201d

Thanks Nigel - shame that another school holidays has passed by!  So it could be - watch this space rather than, don't hold your breath?:-)

Sarah Felstead ● 6202d

'Everyone' knows what happened to it Sarah, it is getting anything done about it that has proved frustrating.I have heard that a determined local councillor or two is actually forcing matters to a head quietly in the background.

Nigel Moore ● 6202d

... by the way ... did anyone figure out what happened to the money & boat for the youth of Brentford?

Sarah Felstead ● 6207d

Thanks for that Nigel, I only hope my maths are up to it, I am still amazed that there is so little to show for so much cash!

Philip Walsh ● 6207d

Philip, I believe you are referring to the 'Brentford Regeneration Partnership' which was registered as a limited company that was finally dissolved in 2002.For a small fee, you can download all the accounts from Companies House website >http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/d8d7cfc01a152fe3cc4c07e3a126a971/compdetailsHope that's useful.

Nigel Moore ● 6212d

Andrew thank you for answering my questions, I suppose using the word responsible was misplaced it wasn't quite what I meant.I am a little surprise by your answer to the missing millions, I am sure the figure was fairly large the sum of £320 million keeps coming to mind and even if it was only a tenth of that, its a hell of a lot to be used in a feasibility study.I opened my company in Syon Park back in October of 1997, this cash was apparently handed over around this time, there was a great deal made about it in the local papers.The Brentford rejuvenation partnership who if my memory serves me correctly were supposed to spearhead the rejuvenation project and that’s why they were I believe the group in receipt of the sum. All I know is that the B.R.J disappeared with out much of a goodbye, the rejuvenation of Brentford is like bad joke to many in the community, one seemingly with out end and nobody knows (or seems to care) were the money went.I feel that the people and business community have been badly let down by someone somewhere and the lack of accountability for this money should disturb us all very much.

Philip Walsh ● 6212d

Maybe It's time for Hounslow to look at how Ealing are doing things as the changes and improvements are happening far more rapidly and are more evident.  It's very diverse and different towns are all being treated in a way that suits the district best. I think this boroughs biggest problem is it is simply too big and too polarised.It's had councillors of dubvious motives from afar making decisions about places they have never been to. Council officers who also are here today gone tomorrow. - after the damage is done.It's been the same for Ealing. It would be better to have 3 boroughs instead of two with ones that are more able to address the individual needs of a district.Brentford and Chiswick have always lost out to the corporate Hounslow right from the start. Chiswick has always been treated as a cash cow and Brentford as a social dumping ground.Latterly it's developers who are doing the damage, but where is the authority preventing the sort of unsuitable expansion?Where is the improved infrastructure to support this imminent explosion in local population?Who will end up paying the price?  Need I answer.It's not all bad, Hounslow's education service has been solid for 40 years and some of the services like street lighting are stable. But parks and general amenities? Hmmmm.

Anthony Waller ● 6214d

"Andrew what is a S106."S106 payments are the financial contribition made by developers to mitigate against the impacts of a development (e.g. need for addition schools places, GPs etc)"I have asked many times on different  threads about what happened to the money handed to the Brentford rejuvenation project back in 1997 nobody seems to know the answer."I dont know.  I understand there was a report produced looking at effectiveness but havent seen a copy.  Cllr Ruth Cadbury was a councillor at the time - perhaps she or Matt have a copy?"I believe the steering group are now responsible for getting the town center built and so presumably they (you) would have some idea about what remains of this very very large sum of cash, how it is being spent, how what has been spent, has been spent and whats left."The steering group has no such responsibility.  we are trying to galvernise action and have worked to clarify what the community would like to see happen. I wish there was a magic wand!"I and many others in this area have been asking ourselves these question for some time I think its about time the people of Brentford were updated on all the facts surrounding the Brentford town center development or should I say the lack of it."It wont surprise you I am often asked this question.  you can find an overview of where things are at here:http://www.openplans.org/projects/brentfordhighstreet/latest-update-from-cllr-andrew-dakers"I only ask, as when I look across Brentford, ten or more years on, very little in the way of progress or improvement is evident and I really don't think we are getting our monies worth. Brentford is even more dilapidated and run down now, then it was when the area was declared in need of radical investment."I know.  I have seen this over 20+ years.  I wish as local councillors we had greater powers to influence development options.  And that we werent heading into the economic problems we are, which makes investment far harder to deliver.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6214d

I would have thought that that is what politicians are supposed to do. Find a way, and lobby a range of sources for funding.I have to agree to with what seems to go on here in this town. Nothing ever seems to bear fruit other than developers getting their way with their woefullydisappointing poor quality overpriced developmentsJust where has all the money gone from S106 to film money to residents associations?Unless you are a member of the local political fraternity, there seems to be no enhancement to the local ambience whatsover. 43 years here and I am still waiting to see so many promises come to fruit.

Anthony Waller ● 6214d

Andrew what is a S106.I have asked many times on different  threads about what happened to the money handed to the Brentford rejuvenation project back in 1997 nobody seems to know the answer. I believe the steering group are now responsible for getting the town center built and so presumably they (you) would have some idea about what remains of this very very large sum of cash, how it is being spent, how what has been spent, has been spent and whats left.I and many others in this area have been asking ourselves these question for some time I think its about time the people of Brentford were updated on all the facts surrounding the Brentford town center development or should I say the lack of it.I only ask, as when I look across Brentford, ten or more years on, very little in the way of progress or improvement is evident and I really don't think we are getting our monies worth. Brentford is even more dilapidated and run down now, then it was when the area was declared in need of radical investment.

Philip Walsh ● 6214d

'It's like going to Ireland to get to Scotland'...no exageration there then...

Keith Iddon ● 6217d

My priority is encouraging plans to progress for the south side of Brentford High Street. A river crossing of some sort might help this which is why the Community Vision for Brentford High Street report advocated a ferry.  The Thames Landscape Strategy are advocating the Brentford waterside - and ferry concept - this year I understand. I would be interested in low cost options for bridges spanning the river at this point (Toni El Suizo's bridges sound fascinating), but the ferry has always seemed more realistic.  As Matt Harmer stated, world heritage site status of kew gardens could make planning permission difficult, but they seem to make plenty of changes inside the gardens.  If you attend local area planning/monitoring meetings you will know how Councillors have struggled to navigate S106 expenditure, although transparency has improved in the past year or two (there is also a document recently published that establishes the scope of S106 spend).  The reality is that there is a phenominally long list of infrastructure we have to invest in (schools, NHS, play space...) before we get to river footbridges, and S106 contributions are never enough.Does anyone on this message list have the time to research Toni El Suizo's work (costs etc), engage the Mayor and Transport for London in the project, apply to a charity to fund a planning application etc....?Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6217d

I do the equivalent journey by bicycle most days. I do it one handed with my dogs lead in the other hand and then do a days work, before cycling home. I am 49 in September.  My 14 year old son often cycles from our home in Chiswick all the way to Grey Court school in Ham and does a full day at school before cycling home.My daughter cycles to Richmond collage at the far end of Isleworth, does a day at collage and cycles home.I can only assume that your children are very young or very lazy. Are you sure its not you who can't be bothered or are to tired and irritable. Try stopping for a picnic on Kew green or perhaps simply buy them a ice cream, sit down rest and chill for a while it always worked for our two and even as an eight year old my son was happy to do a ten to fifteen mile bike ride. I really do think people are becoming more and more lazy.

Philip Walsh ● 6220d

I think this is the best idea to be suggested for downtrodden Brentford in ages.I too would love to know where all the money and improvement schemes have actually been completed. I've heard nothing but hot air and 'innovative schemes' in my 50 odd years in Brentford but seen very little. Even the fast train to waterloo which was the best and only way this is possible from this district lasted just a few years.To get to Kew Gardens form here on foot is a pain.Even as a keen runner it is not a quick jog.It's a long walk for most.It is like going to Ireland to get to Scotland. It takes ages along filthy and busy and none too safe roads. The kids hate it as they are tired before they get to the gardens and have lost all interest. The bus can often take as long as the walk and yet it is just a few hundred metres away as the crow flies.Kew Bridge really serves Kew, that tiny corner of Chiswick and mostly the Traffic of the NCR and SCRs.  Brentford town has no bridge or link across the river that benefits the pedestrian public.Sorry mate but I'm all for it, It could bring some real benefits to this towns main area. A lot better than most of the half baked ideas that fall flat or worse still end up as white elephants.

Anthony Waller ● 6222d

Sorry folks but I think a bridge to be more than a little unnecessary, Kew Bridge already links London and Middlesex with Surrey and the entrance to Kew Gardens is only a short walk from the Surrey side of the bridge.As for the Money to finance a bridge, what happened to all the Government Millions that was paid to the Brentford rejuvenation partnership (I believe its now no longer in existents) perhaps you should try and find where that went, there was I believe in the region of £360 million handed over back in 1997/8 and we don't seem to have gotten our monies worth as yet. There has been a lack of transparency for the public in the how ,when, by whom and for what, this money has or is perhaps still being used.I believe something like two hundred million pounds in government money was paid out for  the rejuvenation of great West road (Golden mile) stretch through Brentford a few years later but to who? I can't remember but work has been ongoing even if I don't like all of it (Barret Phallus/GWQ). The exact details of both these grants would be in the archives of the old Brentford and Chiswick Times which is where I would originally have read about them.So it would seem that there should be quite a lot of money available locally but as for where! or for what. Perhaps its been swollowed by the administration bill from those that have failed to deliver the town center in the last decade. If you try you might perhaps get enough for one Gondola but you would need to find who's got the cash first, good luck with that!

Philip Walsh ● 6222d

>> Just what has been gleaned from all the huge developments around here that has been of any benefit to all locals?The new Musical Museum for one - the exterior shell - £600,000 - paid for by the Barratt Holland Gardens development, complications with the internal fitting because the Thames Water site didn't go ahead on schedule.Perhaps we could all be a bit more positive.

Stephen Browne ● 6229d

It does not matter whether it is Kew Gardens or the local rubbish dump, any footbridge would have to meet engineering specifications. That does not mean it has to be elaborate or overblown. Nor will it actually be in Kew Gardens.We've been building bridges for thousands of years. All types exist the entire length of the Thames.It is not just section 106 money that can fund it. Much of that has been wasted badly in the past and it is supposed to bring an enhancement that can be a legacy for all.Lottery funding, company sponsorship, urban revitalisation funding and a host of others exist for this very sort of thing and God knows Brentford needs it. Not to mention the massive grants Kew can secure.Just what has been gleaned from all the huge developments around here that has been of any benefit to all locals?  Even the fast train to Waterloo vanished. (The only means to get into town quickly)  Not much else apart from the spectre of controlled parking zones, which perversely, residents end up paying for.Come on Mr. Harmer, be a bit more positive.

Michael Brandt ● 6230d

As Kew Gardens is such an important site, any such structure would have to pass extremely rigourous design tests and thus would be extremely expensive, putting it outside the scope of S106 planning funds. It would be a very nice thing to have but would it be the best use of public funds? I fear not...

Matt Harmer ● 6230d

Well your right Keith, can't be sure how high it is, but must be 100ft. If such a device(S) were installed here however, would it not be a bit intrusive. Maybe a nice pedestian bridge is the best solution really.

Colin Vaughan ● 6230d

I have been on the Singapore cable car and it is impressive

Keith Iddon ● 6230d

There's quite a few gondolas about and of course the transporter bridge in the North East.These are usually used where the ground rises steeply.The only thing is it would cost a lot to run and maintain and seeing as this borough can't even manage to get the paths in parks swept,or the library to open when people are around to use it, I can't see the gondola operating formore than 3 hours a week.The footbridge would cost nothing to run and well designed, need little maintenance, and of course be free to use....for Brentfordians and Griffins!!

Michael Brandt ● 6230d

I think Singapore has a system like this, connecting the Mainland with Sentosa Island. Its quite high, 100ft maybe above the water, and gives spectacular views.

Colin Vaughan ● 6230d

Interesting article in today’s Sunday Times:  “a network of alpine style cable cars carrying commuters across the Thames is being considered by Boris Johnson…under plans being drawn up by Lord Rogers the mayor’s architecture adviser.  Rogers is proposing eight river crossings, mainly in east London.”The plan in the Times shows seven of these, between the Isle of Dogs and Thamesmead, begging the question regarding number eight.When the “Bridge for Brentford” thread came up, I did think of suggesting a  gondola.  The advantage is that the capital cost would be lower than a bridge, although there would of course be running costs.  The main reason for using them east of London would be to gain the necessary height for shipping  - not such a problem for Brentford-Kew, but nonetheless the idea merits debate.

Chris Calvi-Freeman ● 6230d

This would make a real difference to life in Brentford. A bridge where the old ferry used to run from Ferry Queys would enable a simply walk across the river to allow a morning out in Kew Gardens or a nice walk to Richmond.A footbridge, wooden with concrete floor, was built fairly cheaply a few years back across the Thames at Hurley, near Marlow and at Bourne End a footbridge was built by the railway bridge.When Ferry Quays was built the idea of a ferry across to Kew was mentioned. With all the millions going into the new developments it wouldn't break the bank to have a simple footbridge built, yet it would open some wonderful opportunities of walking from Brentford.Could any local counsillors consider this creative opportunity?

Phil Whitehead ● 6241d

Strikes me as being a good idea Michael. Not being a resident of West London anymore, but I still remember trips to Kew from Acton, and later Ealing on the fumeless Trolleybus. Can't see why Nigel is so squeemish about a bridge. Its like anything else that needs Architcteral vision, get it right and it would enhance that stretch of the River.

Colin Vaughan ● 6241d

I'm a great admirer of Toni "El Suizo" who builds bridges for $500 and a lot of community involvement.http://www.ipmaroma2008.it/news.php?ID=00017But I guess the humanitarian lure won't get him here and I doubt if London bureaucracy would permit anyone to do it in a month.

Tim Henderson ● 6246d

A tunnel would cost a fortune and has no view although a foot tunnel as part of the proposed tube line would be a possibility.The Ferry would be great but the river has now not been dredged for over 40 years and the mud has now built up to a point that renders the river far too dangerous for small cross boat traffic. Mud is as dangerous as tidal currents.It now would be wholly tide dependent whereas before the dredged river provided low water navigation in all but the lowest tides.A bridge can be as ostentatious or as anonymous as one likes. It could have two spans or even three cutting a raised walkway through the nature reserve of an island.There's the now hugely popular wobbly bridge at Bankside or the ornate lock bridge at Richmond, two ends of the bridge spectrum.Linking into Brentford and the car park on the southside, this could attract a lot of pedestrians into Brentford to eat and shop after their visit.Brentfords own historic attractions could thrive from this. How about a working boat restoration centre like the steam museum to subsidise the boatyards?Just a thought.Mike

Michael Brandt ● 6246d

I'm not a fan of bridges, we have quite enough of them.The rationale is incontestable though, and I'd love to see alternatives explored - a renewed passenger ferry link has been a concept seriously played with for years, and the ultimate would be a subway walkway such as Greenwich has.

Nigel Moore ● 6246d