Forum Topic

Just what are the Tories and Junior Tories doing to our borough?

So obsessed to say they are controlling council tax the Tories and Junior Tories are going to stitch up our children by the cutting of the language service.  It's on the news right now,yet again.  It is an utter shame for us all.  Our services are a disgrace, our CPA score in culture will fall, and I would be willing to bet that Hounslow is one of the London Boroughs that are using all forms of bullying and the threat of legal ation to stop the Audit Commision from showing just how our services are sliding under our Tory-Pseudo Tory Administration.  It has to be said the morons running Lampton Road would do well to obsess less about cuts, do more to improve services when we ned them most in a recession and getting on with some hard work rather than spending money and officer time fighting the Audit Commission's accurate assessment of our servicesHOusnlow is not alone in this shoddy effort, Enfield is at it, and so Harrow. Funny the cirumstances are the same electorally in them all.

Conal Stewart ● 6294d104 Comments

"and it was up to the parents to bring their off-spring to the required standard to allow them to enter school and not expect the school to teach the basics of parental upbringing." Well said - I couldn't agree more

Steve Taylor ● 6201d

Where do you start here on this one, well it's been usefull to hear both sides of the story from robins and your perpectives it's a pity this did not happen about god knows how many years ago, I would of been more prepared to look at a more  constructive dialog.The meeting you refer to is correct, what I meant to say I was expecting a Tory I hate political correctness type reactions,For once I shall thanks for explaining. The problem for any tenant movement and it was the same in Manchester is that it has to be non political, in Manchester we had to turn away left wing groups from joining yes we could of done with the support but no to bandwagoning the tenents had to show that the whole community was speaking with one voice, please note the situation was complicated a bit more than what I am writting. Isleworth is also in the same token is  a difficult situation to sort out and I won't belittle it, but I have the hope at some point a consensus will form by the residents to work towards making the estates a better and comunity a united one.This is annoying trying to this on an iphone

Dave Hughes ● 6203d

"I can only say that my opposition to all the organisations you cite - the Anti Nazi League, the Southall Monitoring Group, Searchlight, Labour - has been reactive to attacks on myself and on the ICG by these groups."Phil, have you ever considered why these groups opposed you? Could it be that they had reasonable doubts about how genuine your conversion was?Let's look at the facts: You were an active member of far-right organisations for a total of fourteen years (1977-91) and then suddenly re-invented yourself as a community politician.Bear in mind, here, that during your latter days in the National Front you articulated a strategy which involved infiltrating residents' organisations and taking them over for the organisational benefit of the NF. (I seem to remember that the title of one of the articles you wrote for an internal National Front publication was "New strategies for winning recruits".)When you look at your history in public life, does it not occur to you that so much of it has been about smoke and mirrors (and, at the risk of sounding impolite, about trying to deceive people about your true objectives?).Let me give you some examples. At around the time that you set up the South Isleworth National Front, you established the ICG's forerunner, the South Isleworth Community Group. This claimed to be an independent community organisation yet when it stood candidates in the 1986 local elections, the legal election agent for those candidates was also the organiser of the Hounslow branch of the National Front (a certain Phil Andrews).Anti Fascist Action, who had opened a branch in Southall, conducted a leafleting campaign to expose the South Isleworth Community Group. They also had to use special magnifying equipment to decipher the imprint on the SICG election literature - which, it emerged, was printed at the NF's HQ in Thornton Heath.Given the fact that the National Front had always contested the Isleworth South ward in local elections BUT STOPPED DOING SO when the SCIG started contesting the ward, do you not see why some people think that the SICG was established in an attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes?Likewise, when the Labour controlled local authority barred the NF from using council-owned buildings, you got round this by forming a "coarse angling club" and booking meetings at public buildings under this new name. Then, at the last minute, the angling club would cancel the meeting and allow the NF to use its allotted meeting time instead.Searchlight has long been aware of the tactic of far right organisations to operate under assumed names so as to hide their true objectives, so it's hardly surprising that they have had their reservations about you. Am I correct in saying that you stood NF member Alan Minehan as a "Green Action" candidate in a local election (was it in Isleworth North Ward?) - and if so, was that part of this strategy?Certainly, the case of Joe Short, who was exposed by Searchlight as a National Front member when he stood for the Liberal/SDP Alliance in the Rylands Ward of Croydon borough council in the 1982 local elections, is an example of this "smoke and mirrors" tactic. Had the election been held six months earlier (when the Alliance was riding high in the polls) he would have been elected and would certainly have set up his own one-man NF group on the council. You were organiser of Croydon NF for a time, so I'm sure that you know what I am referring to here.On top of all of these things is the issue of writing to the press (and posting on this website) under aliases - and what some of those aliases say.Ironically, you often claim to adhere to a policy of "honesty and openness". It is the apparent lack of these things, throughout much of your political history, which causes doubt among many of those on the anti-fascist left.You may, of course, claim that I am being unreasonable by harking back to past events. Well, I agree that it is time to talk about the things you have said on this forum more recently - and how those things are supposed to help the fight against the far right.For that, however, I need to start a new thread - and after the Euro elections.

Robin Taylor ● 6203d

DaveI actually find myself quite encouraged by much of what you say here.  When you are being sensible you are an interesting guy.  I honestly do wish it would happen more often.I'm guessing the meeting you are referring to was of the Race Harassment Scrutiny Panel, am I correct?  I remember that evening too.  There were several councillors from across the spectrum involved but there were only two in my view who were making a sustained, intelligent contribution.  One was your good self and the other, if you'll forgive me for saying it, was yours truly.  If you came to that meeting with preconceptions that I would articulate a racist or right-wing view of any kind then you would indeed have been surprised, but you need to bear in mind it has been implied elsewhere that I do this whole anti-racist thing - week in, week out, year in, year out - against my true nature solely to impress Robin.I don't understand your comments about me allegedly implementing Tory housing policy.  I am no longer Lead Member for Housing, but in nearly three years in that role I would challenge you to point out to me what housing stock I have destroyed or sold off, unless you are referring to the one solitary house in Chiswick which we decided to sell in order to fund major refurbishments to several other properties which were outside the Housing Revenue Account and which were completely uninhabitable.  If this is what you are referring to this was a one-off, pragmatic decision which I believe to have been the right one as several large families have been rehoused as a consequence.If on the other hand you are saying that the Tories, if they had complete control of the council, would sell off our social housing stock then you may or may not be right.  I honestly don't know, there are different views within the Conservative Group about this and it is difficult to know which view would prevail following an election and a subsequent intake of new councillors.  But if that is indeed what you are saying then are you not acknowledging that the ICG's presence within the administration has had the effect of preventing such a policy from being implemented?  And are you not, therefore, contradicting your apparent view that the ICG's role within the administration has been to implement Tory policy?  I am genuinely interested in your take on this, but you need to be clearer about what it is you are saying.Either way, I don't understand your logic if you are suggesting that the sale of our social housing stock by a future full-blooded Conservative administration could be blamed on the ICG who (following the logic of your own argument) prevented such a thing from happening when in office!I have to say though that I do not the share the belief held by a growing number of Labour and Conservative councillors (and not a few senior officers if their recent conduct towards us is anything to go by) that a fully-fledged Conservative administration will be the outcome in 2010.  In fact as an expectation I think it is ludicrously wide of the mark, and if I may say so myself I haven't a bad track record when it comes to predicting the outcomes of local elections in Hounslow.  In my view Dave, one way or another, you will be stuck with us for quite a long time to come and if that is the case then how you and your party choose to deal with that is of course for you decide.Dave, I accept that I may have you wrong on a lot of things.  You certainly have me wrong on almost everything.  Speaking personally, my own political views are very far removed from Conservative ideology and not in the direction that it seems you would prefer to think.  Ideology is absolutely not the basis of this coalition, and until you and your colleagues are prepared to grasp that point you will continue to be wrong and your strategies, based as they are on wilful misconceptions, will be wrong also.  In truth the coalition is a coming together of two wholly different groups whose aspirations lie in wholly different areas of the local authority's operation.  Our policy has been to allow our partners to pretty much do their thing in the areas which interest them in return for similar concessions in the field of community engagement. If anybody feels that we've not pursued our own objectives aggressively enough then I would implore them to watch this space.I hope I do not come across as a Tory spokesperson on this forum.  I would agree, and regret, that our Conservative coalition partners seldom participate on here or even on W4.  Possibly they take the view that the less one says, the less chance there is of putting one's foot in it.  I on the other hand tend not to think like a politician, my approach is that if I say what I feel then I'm prepared to be judged on it.  Each to their own.In conclusion Dave, your views to me are interesting but confused.  If they represent the wider party view then I believe you all have a lot of work to do if you are to regroup anytime soon.

Phil Andrews ● 6203d

RobinAn interesting exercise though this dialogue has been, it occurs to me that in your analysis of my supposed objectives your policy has been to start with your conclusion and to mould your case around that.  As such the case may change, but your conclusion never will.I can only say that my opposition to all the organisations you cite - the Anti-Nazi League, the Southall Monitoring Group, Searchlight, Labour - has been reactive to attacks on myself and on the ICG by these groups.  In none of these cases has the animosity originated with me or with us.  I have been open to dialogue with all of these groups and remain so in spite of all the attacks.  It is they who choose the ICG for an enemy, not the other way around.Unlikely though it is to make any difference to your thinking, I will give you a little bit of further information about our relationships with two of these groups.Firstly, the SMG.  Unknown to me at the time my ICG colleague, the former councillor Fred Muston, contacted the co-ordinator of this group, Suresh Grover, on a matter of constituency work about five or six years back.  After discussing the substantive business and finding Mr. Grover surprisingly friendly and co-operative Councillor Muston asked him whether he had any difficulty providing help and advice to a member of the ICG.  Mr. Grover responded  by saying that any quarrel he had had with the ICG was historical and that "I don't have any issues with Phil these days".  So it seems at least one of your old acquaintances is prepared to move on.Regarding Searchlight, I have attempted to contact them a few times over the years.  Bear in mind that this is supposed to be an organisation which has as its sole objective the eradication of fascism and the far-right.  Here am I, a former senior member of the National Front, somebody who knew BNP leader Nick Griffin very well and worked with him at close quarters, and now wanting to speak to them.  You'd have thought that at the very least they'd have been interested in holding an exploratory meeting or even a chat over the telephone.  Nothing.Just last August I found myself engaged in constructive dialogue, via e-mail, with a group which has very close links with Searchlight.  They had posted something about me on an anti-fascist blog which was highly libellous and I'd insisted that they remove it under threat of legal action, which to their credit they did.  Following that there was a pleasant exchange of correspondence in which they asked whether I'd be prepared to meet Searchlight and to write something for their blog.  I agreed (I had some reservations about the strategic value of what they were asking me to write, but that's another matter).  They told me Searchlight would be in touch.  Then - nothing.  I e-mailed them to remind them that I was keen to meet Searchlight.  They said they'd remind Searchlight and get back to me.  Nothing.So Robin, what is the motivation of an organisation whose declared business is combatting fascism which declines to speak to somebody whose experiences would provide them with intelligence and which insists on misrepresenting a person with a demonstrably active, high-profile and growing record of anti-fascist activity as being still a fascist?  When I have suggested it is my work as a community activist - which has brought me into conflict with traditional party politics and with Labour in particular - I have been ridiculed.  But they can give me no other answer with which to challenge my theory.I am now in the absurd situation where I post helpful information on the aforesaid anti-fascist blog, which is widely read and supported, under the cloak of anonymity because it wouldn't get published if I posted it under my real name.  How crazy is that?I don't wish to be personally insulting to you Robin when I tell you that your own activities in opposition to me are in my view peripheral bordering on irrelevant, but that is my honest assessment of the "threat" you offer me.  What does anger me, and I have said this before, is the message that you, the Labour Party and people like Searchlight are sending to other people within far-right groups who might be reconsidering their position.  That message is that they may as well stay where they are, doing what they do, because there will never be any other way open to them.  I believe that by sending that message you are letting down victims and potential victims of racism and selling short the very cause that you claim to champion.On several occasions recently I have found myself giving serious consideration to setting up my own anti-racist blog, the purpose of which would be to encourage members of far-right groups who might be having second thoughts to get in touch - anonymously, until the feel comfortable about coming out into the open - and to chat about their concerns.  The long term objective, of course, would be to persuade them that racism is wrong and that if they desire to make the world a better place there are other and better ways of doing it.For some, these other ways might include working outside the political mainstream, as a consequence of which I've no doubt the blog will be attacked by the likes of yourself, the Labour Party and Searchlight as being fascist.  I can live with that, if it helps potential victims of racist attacks to live in peace and without fear.  But I still believe the actions of those of you who pursue this selfish and destructive strategy to be a betrayal of anti-fascism.

Phil Andrews ● 6203d

Don't be silly what wrath, you did not read the post, I expect they would do the right thing. Did I ever have a go at you on a comittee that we once both had an input into. I remember thinking at the time this is going to be intersting what your input would be, I expected a right wing ideology coming from you not a far right one by that more of a consevative one, I think at the time you suspended any idelogy just as we also had to suspend some of our left wing ideas to examine the issue. I had to reconsider my view of you.The problem arises as you love to play the victim, maybe this a trait from your formative years as this is a favorite of your past political allies, rightly or wrongly depending on your view you seem to have placed yourself as spokesperson for the Tory party. The mass of contradictions that you seem to be putting forward are not what the reality of Tory housing policy which will be enacted you are the perfect stool pidgion. They get to destroy social housing and it will be your party residents will blame.This is just one issue set as an example, I find it amusing your ideas you have of me as a person which are well and truely wide off the mark, I don't profess to be the saviour of Hounslow to which I have mocked you before as doing, it's a pity that the Tories don't come out of the civic centre bunker more then we would have more of a challange, so we are left with Tory party apologychics,

Dave Hughes ● 6203d

Phil.The fourth paragraph of your posting indicates to me (and I will choose my words carefully here) that there is a significant part of your thinking that remains unchanged from the old days.Your allegation that the Anti Nazi League received £30k as a grant from Hounslow Council was one that you made frequently in the letters pages of the Brentford Chiswick & Isleworth Times in the 1990s. It was also an allegation that was made by one Warren Glass, who stood as a BNP candidate in Heston East. (In fact, the two of you frequently seemed like a double act in terms of the propoganda that you were issuing).It hardly needs to be said that the allegation was baseless. Your claim that the ANL received this money through a 'front organisation' was also frequntly articulated by you in the Times. (The said front organisation being the Southall Monitoring Group).Yet it hardly needs to be said that the ANL and the SMG were entirely separate (one being a national body concerned with combatting the far right; the other being a local group concerned with counselling the victims of racial attacks). The two bodies did, however, hold a few joint demonstrations.I remember having a beer with my ANL colleagues in the Bulstrode pub (after one of our regular Saturday petitions in Hounslow town centre) and hearing them scream with laughter at the notion that we received £30k from the local authority. The attitude of one of them was "where is all the money we are told that we keep getting, that's what I'd like to know."Still more absurd is your claim that the money was being used by the ANL to conduct "political campaigns" on behalf of the Labour Party. Most ANL members were scathing about the Labour Party. (In fact I was the only person active in Hounslow ANL who was simultaneously a Labour member). As you know, Phil, the £30,000 you refer to was given as a grant to the SMG for the purpose of setting up and administering an emergency helpline for those suffering racial harassment. A worthy cause, surely? Well, evidently not in your eyes because you wrote to the press pouring scorn on the initiative.Let us put the timing of this into perspective. You were a member of the NF from 1977-89; and were then in the fascist ITP from 1989-91. I believe that somewhere you have referred to completely turning your back on the far right in 1991 and immediately becoming a "ferocious anti racist". Well there wasn't much sign of that in the mid-1990s when you were criticising the SMG's emergency helpline.You are wrong to suggest that those of us who were in the ANL were "to all intents and purposes ignoring the activities of the racist BNP in Hanworth, Heston and Feltham." In fact we spent most of our time in the mid-1990s combatting the BNP presence in those areas.Unfortunately, there have been examples of things that you have said and done since then (including a number of bizarre remarks made by you on this forum) which lead people to further question the sincerity of your conversion from the far right. If somebody was to ask me whether I thought you are as bad today as you were when you were in the National Front, I would answer 'No'. If, on the other hand, somebody was to ask me if I think you've completely changed since your days in the National Front, then the answer would also be 'No'. Where, within the boundaries of those two points you really are I cannot gauge for sure. I CAN say that you are a political opponent and not one that I feel I could sincerely be polite to (which is why I will decline your invitation to have a coffee).Leave aside for one moment your scathing criticisms of the ANL and the Labour Party. Why on earth do you criticise "Searchlight" - a highly acclaimed non-party political organisation which has done such a good job of exposing the activities of the far right? And how on earth did you make the "mistake" of posting on this forum a website address for an orgnaisation called "Searchlies" that was full of anti-semitism and holocaust denial?It is things like this that cause people to have their doubts.

Robin Taylor ● 6203d

DaveI have never claimed that these people are "on my side", simply that they have worked constructively with me for the greater good of the community.  I anticipated that that would incur your wrath which is why I didn't name names, but like it or not you have some decent and well-meaning people on your team.

Phil Andrews ● 6203d

Err Phil one man does not make a committee nor does one man make a community, sometimes your ego is holds no bounds, The labour people you are trying to pitch as people who are on your side are people who with or without you would still be fighting for the social inclusion charter regardless of you.It is because of the belief of the labour cllrs in the agenda and not paying lip service to it that social cohesion is taking place. You seem to forget the council will carry on well after you have retired from it.

Dave Hughes ● 6203d

RobinI think I have observed in the past that whilst smug triumphalism in victory is unattractive, smug triumphalism in defeat is truly an idiocy to behold.My "old mate" Michael Stoneman is in fact no such thing.  I have never met the guy, and have no desire ever to do so.  If you truly wish to know what he meant by what he is alleged to have said sixteen years ago then you will have to ask him.  If he's still alive.With regard to all the comments I am alleged to have made about the Anti-Nazi League (Mark II) during the early 1990s, whilst my own bedroom wall has been repapered since those far-off days and is not adorned with such memorabilia I am happy, for the benefit of this discussion, to accept your recollections as fact.  What you haven't pointed out to readers of this forum, of course, is that said organisation - which at the time was effectively being funded to the tune of £30,000 p.a. by the local authority (via a front group) - was devoting most of its time to political campaigning on behalf of the Labour Party against the anti-racist ICG whilst to all intents and purposes ignoring the activities of the racist BNP in Hanworth, Heston and Feltham.As such its "main remit" was anything but the eradication of racism past or present.  On the contrary its "main remit" was clearly to use taxpayers' money to conduct political campaigns on behalf of your party.  It was for this reason and for this reason alone that it incurred criticism from myself and others close to me.Examples of my using similar language to criticise far-right organisations are not difficult to find.  Indeed in my previous posting I provided about twenty such examples.  But if your mission is not to see them, if the world in which you prefer to reside is one in which the ICG and the communities of Isleworth and Brentford are on the side of ignorance and intolerance, then they are there to be avoided.Rather than posting me offending articles at the Civic Centre Robin maybe you would like to meet me there sometime for a drink or a spot of lunch?  I could show you the local political world as it really exists in the 21st century, along with some practical examples of the work on community cohesion for which the local authority has deservedly received plaudits and awards, and to the success of which decent Labour councillors have contributed?Or, if you prefer, you can continue to write and post about events which took place in the days of the Penny Black which defined your views, as a non-resident of our borough, about the Community Group.  Either way as residents of the London Borough of Hounslow users of this forum would like to thank you for your continued interest in our education and welfare.

Phil Andrews ● 6203d

Phil. I'm reliably informed that you have a short fuse. Your last posting would seem to bear this theory out.You state that I have implied that the late Tom Reader "held racist views of some kind." I did not say that - you did. All I said was that Tom campaigned for an active member of the National Front to remain a committee member of NITA. That is a statement of fact.You were Tom's election agent in the 1993 Isleworth South by-election. Surely you remember your old NF mate Michael Stoneman telling the press that "We expect him (Tom) to reflect our views." Why would he have said that, Phil?Could you also tell me why, throughout the mid-1990s, both Tom and you (along with other ICG members) came out with a torrent of abuse against the Anti Nazi League when writing letters to the local press? Here's a selection:-"nasty gange of hoodlums""violent""anti-democratic""thoroughly evil""boot boys""rentamob""hypocritical bigots""despicable""cowards""marauding gangs of hooligans""mob""bovver boys""political prostitutes""the banner waving, wall-painting, brick-throwing, handout-taking, bobby-bashing democrats of the Anti Nazi League."That's pretty strong stuff to throw at an organisation whose main remit was the destruction of your old party. By the way, if you wish to dispute the accuracy of any of these quotes (all of which were made several years after you claim to have turned your back on the NF) then I would be quite happy to post you the offending articles care of the Lampton Road civic centre.Perhaps you could give me examples of you or Tom Reader ever using similarly scathing language against far right organisations ..?

Robin Taylor ● 6204d

RobinTo my knowledge we have never met, but one thing I have come to learn about you over many years of corresponding via the local press and now through these forums is that you are a man who makes assumptions and jumps to a lot of conclusions about people he does not know nor fully understand.One such assumption appears to be that ICG founder Tom Reader held racist views of some kind.  The connection you draw this view from is that he opposed the campaign to remove a man from a residents' association who was a member of the NF.  So did a whole lot of people Robin, they were not by any stretch of the imagination all racists or supporters of the NF.  They were different days, and principles which are more or less universally accepted today were questioned by many twenty odd years ago amid concerns about free speech (and complicated in this particular case by the widespread knowledge that a wider agenda was at play).  The support Alan Minehan received needs to be considered in the context of its time.  In 1986 I would never have dreamed I would say anything like this but today I'd be on the side of those opposing his committee membership, although for different reasons. For Tom's part, his support for Mr. Minehan was hardly likely to be tempered by the knowledge that he was next on the hitlist!Like I said in my previous posting, you will believe what you wish to believe and I am not under any illusions at all that you will let a simple thing like the evidence stand in the way of your theories.  But at least I feel I have demonstrated to others that the false impression you have of the ICG is not based on ignorance but is rather a matter of preference.The ICG website to which you refer is my personal blog.  I am fiercely proud to have known Tom Reader and to have worked with him for many years for the greater good of my community.  What a shame it is that your political zeal leads you to pass judgement upon a man you never met based on a plethora of assumptions, half-understood tenuous links and dumb wishful thinking.

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

Phil.No where in that long statement was there an explanation of why your organisation chose to ally itself to the HRG.The notion that racists support you because they have been persuaded by people like me into thinking that you share their views is, to say the least, a little far-fetched.I have never indulged in "lying to people about the alleged racist motives of the ICG" but I am certainly aware of the roots and history of that organisation.The fact that at least one ICG-controlled website bears a photo tribute to your protege the late Tom Reader (who was instrumental in campaigning for NF member Alan Minehan as a committee member of NITA) reflects badly on you.

Robin Taylor ● 6204d

"Well it is cetainly the case that Labour - which by the way is not my party, as I belong to none - lost the 2006 elections. That doesn't mean it pushed the Conservatives into colaition with you, they could have "ruled" as a minority party and sought agreement on each issue as it arose. So they are as culpable for inviting you in, as you were for wanting power without being prepared to accept responsiblity for the collective actions of the coalition."DanBearing in mind the savage cuts, with millions of local authority workers subject to compulsory redundancy notices and thrown onto the dole, not to mention outbreaks of plague, pestilence and famine throughout the borough and £313k jollies to Cannes (the figure you quoted in one posting), wouldn't you have thought the Labour Party might have wanted to spare the citizens of the borough from all this hardship?What with all their concern for the voters' welfare, and all that.So what efforts precisely did they make to form an administration before walking voluntarily into opposition and allowing the savage Tory beasts to assume power?What, specifically, were the insurmountable obstacles that prevented Labour from trying to form a coalition administration which they might have led?Particularly in the light of the fact that, as they would have you believe, the ICG have been such a pushover as coalition partners.Have you put this question to them Dan?I'm sure you must be as keen to know as are all those residents whom they meekly and wilfully abandoned in their hour of need?Just what exactly was the point of high principle over which Labour voluntarily handed over power to the Tories after 35 years?Aw go on Dan, do ask them...

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

DanI'm still interested to know why somebody from Hammersmith whose knowledge of the intricacies of Hounslow politics only stretches back a few weeks should refer to the "Isleworth" Community Group, by which name we have not been known for several years??

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

RobinIf I may deal with your last point first, I would respectfully suggest that where you go wrong is by confusing cause with effect.  Whenever a Labour councillor or member works constructively with me for the greater good I go out of my way to acknowledge and thank them for their support.  I publicly challenge you to give me one example - that's ONE - where a member of your party has ever spoken publicly in praise of anything I or any of my colleagues has said or done.Privately, I have been privileged to receive many plaudits from colleagues of yours for my community cohesion work.  A couple of years ago I had the honour of sharing a platform with a very well-known former Labour MP and we spoke over dinner and later for some considerable time in the bar about our respective experiences.  She was a person whose electoral defeat I had welcomed as a result of her outspoken support for the Iraq war (which I still oppose as much as ever), but I learned to respect her nevertheless as a human being and in particular as a sincere anti-racist campaigner.It is my view that your party takes this approach because it likes to reserve its right to spread misinformation about us at election times, a strategy which for some peculiar reason you and yours still seem to believe to be a clever and successful one in the face of all the evidence of the last three local elections.As for me allegedly receiving the support of people with racist views at elections I would suggest is you, not I, who wants to have your cake and eat it.  If it could be shown that I was in the habit of making statements, or even dropping hints, that I had a racist agenda then your critcisms would be valid, but I don't and thus they are not.The real reason why a minority of people who do have views of this kind may still support me is because they have been led to believe that I hold views which are similar to their own.  Now here's a multiple choice question for you Robin - who is it who likes to perpetuate this myth - (a) me, or (b) you?  This is the bottom line Robin, your strategy is a double-edged sword.  Lying to people about the alleged racist motives of the ICG may drive away a few potential supporters who themselves abhor racism, but at the same time it must inevitably drive into our camp people who themselves have a racist outlook.  For you to then attack me or my colleagues for this is the very height of chutzpah.When all is said and done nothing I say is going to prevent you from believing what you choose to believe, or at least profess to believe, especially if you still feel there is mileage to be gained from your current approach.  I do not engage in "window dressing", after disengaging with the far-right I made a conscious decision to stay in "politics" and right some of the wrongs that had defined my earlier political career.  That "anti-racists" went out of their way, and still go out of their way, to impede me in that work for narrow political ends is a cross I am resigned to having to bear.Incidentally, for the benefit of neutrals who are not frightened of the truth a flavour of my real ideas on racism, community cohesion and associated issues can be found below.  Robin will doubtless come back to argue that they are all a charade, written for his benefit.  Judge for yourselves:http://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/05/bnps-rise-is-fantasy-created-by-anti.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/05/if-you-dont-hate-dont-vote-for-my-old.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/04/christians-together-in-isleworth.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/04/christians-together-in-isleworth.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/04/incapacitation-is-seldom-to-be-welcomed.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/03/hounslow-wins-beacon-status-for.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/11/chilling-thought-at-birthday.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/11/pride-in-our-borough.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/10/under-rainbow.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/08/seeing-bigger-picture.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/07/goodbye-nothing-to-say.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/06/making-community-cohesion-work-part-two.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/06/im-back-from-harrogate-and-eager-to.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/06/on-community-cohesion-conference-speech.htmlhttp://philandrews.blogspot.com/2008/05/everybody-matters-making-community.html

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

I wasn't aware that you "unallied" yourselves with the HRG in 1998. True, I remember you doing some public window dressing by taking them to task about how chummy they were with the Tories (which, in retrospect, now seems slightly ironic) but you remained essentially allied to one another for many years thereafter. I have a copy somewhere of the letter that the HRG secretary wrote endorsing your candidature on the eve of the 2002 local election.Please do not pretend that you did not know what they were about when they established themselves in 1996. They made it clear that they opposed the alleged preferential treatment given to Asian people (a complete myth, by the way) were rampantly anti-refugee and anti-asylum seeker and even talked about "strangling" equal opportunities.Arguably, their rhetoric often reflected that of the far right.The two people who were respectively chair and secretary of the HRG continue, to this day, to be among your most enthusiatic vocal supporters.The problem, as I see it, is this: you are quite happy to enjoy the support of those who think you have not really changed. Yet you demand that people with more progressive views accept that you have changed.It's called having your cake and eating it.Finally, regarding your claim that I cannot understand that it is possible to combine honest disagreement with basic human respect. Oh, but can I. I'm just interested in the fact that you still reserve your most severe scorn for the very same people that you were opposing when you were in the National Front.

Robin Taylor ● 6204d

Dan whatever your politics are that's your busines, here if you don't glory in the wonder of Andrews or the Tory party politics to these people you are fair game, you should see what they do to their own if they disagree just see how they treated Simon Anderson going as far as atacking his dyslexic writting knowing full well they had posted letters in his name.This is the sort of low life you are dealing with is it any wonder people think that they need to get a real life.

Dave Hughes ● 6204d

Though, once again, I notice you duck away from answering the questions about the language education provision.Apologies for "cetainly" instead of "certainly"

Dan Filson ● 6204d

Well it is cetainly the case that Labour - which by the way is not my party, as I belong to none - lost the 2006 elections. That doesn't mean it pushed the Conservatives into colaition with you, they could have "ruled" as a minority party and sought agreement on each issue as it arose. So they are as culpable for inviting you in, as you were for wanting power without being prepared to accept responsiblity for the collective actions of the coalition.I gave my take, for what it was worth, on the rationale and composition of the coalition and won't repeat it here.I'm not being superior. Pot calling kettle.

Dan Filson ● 6204d

Not end of story Dan, you are being all superior again.  The story will end when the thread no longer attracts contributions, not when you decide it will end.  Please try to understand that in Hounslow this mentality no longer prevails.I have asked you for your take on the rationale and composition of the coalition on another thread.  Try as you might, you will never be able to run away from the fact that the present administration at Hounslow was the creation of your own party.

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

If it does I've no doubt you will report me.  In the meantime I shall see if I still have the telephone numbers of the people who were involved with the HRG and, if so, I will give them a call to inform them that their organisation still exists.You are correct to point out that I frequently refer to the events of 1986 onwards, but only as supporting information for up-to-date events.You mention Alan Minehan - who has also renounced his formerly held views, I should add, although in his defence he was never remotely as committed to NF ideology as I once was in the first place - and his expulsion from the old Ivybridge TA.  You fail to mention the many other people, of no particular political persuasion, who were purged with him.  In any event you will doubtless be as pleased as I am that this matter has now been rectified and that due to the resolute efforts of the new administration at Hounslow the estate has a new association which all residents have an equal right to be a part of irrespective of whom they happen to vote for, and which is going very well.  Strictly for the record, my take today on the events of 1986/87 surrounding Alan Minehan is that he and I were trying to do the wrong thing for the right reasons, whilst the Labour Party and its then council officers were trying to do the right thing for the wrong reasons - if that makes any sense!The ICG did indeed ally itself with the newly-founded HRG - a fellow independent group operating in the borough - in 1996, as you mention.  It then unallied itself with the same organisation in - I think - 1998, because we were uncomfortable with what we considered to be its emphasis on minority grants and other similar issues, where some of its concerns were, we believed, ill-informed.  Which you don't mention, of course.That is not to say that I do not respect the sincerity of the "main protagonists", and loosely speaking consider them to be friends, just as I have friends in the Labour Party.  It is a shame that the party zealot in you seems not to understand that it is possible to combine honest disagreement with basic human respect.Amusingly, what fatally undermines your line of argument is that the member now responsible for issuing community grants is none other than the Community Group's own Councillor Paul Fisher.  Paul continues to issue hundreds of thousands of pounds to groups working to improve community cohesion in the borough, such as the excellent Somali-led Refugee Education and Training Initiative (RETI).  The facts are there for anybody to see for themselves, and as such it is rather dumb of you to try to imply otherwise.As for the lack of co-operation I have historically received from Labour on community cohesion and tackling racism, this is a generalisation.  I have in fact received some valuable help and support from certain members of your party in Hounslow without which our work as an authority would not have been as effective, for which I am truly grateful and which I have publicly acknowledged.  On the basis of historical trend however it is likely that when the local elections come around these same people, or at least those who are close to them, will revert to accusing me of being a closet fascist who wants to throw them out of the country.  Under the circumstances can you not understand why the "doubt" expressed by such people cuts no ice with me, given the demonstrable lack of sincerity attached to it?

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

No, the issue was the language education provision and what the Tories and you, their sidekicks, were doing to it. I didn't pick the headline, but I am interested in the issue.Are you junior Tories? You maintain in power a Tory administration. End of story.

Dan Filson ● 6204d

I'm surprised you say I'm living in a time warp. You have made frequent references on various leads to the events of 1987 and the alleged purging of non-Labour elements from the committee of the New Ivybridge Tenants Association. The fact that the person thrown off the committee (Alan Mineham) was a member of the National Front is never mentioned in your posts. You have implied that the purging went deeper than that and that only pro-Labour people were allowed on. You have frequently stated that those events were the real reasons why the ICG was established - and have even proclaimed that Labour lost control of the local authority in 2006 because of its actions in those far off days.As far as I'm aware, the HRG still exists. (Its members cenrtainly do). I'm pretty sure that last year the front page of one edition of the Informer made reference to Andy Atkinson as someone who sits of the Police Community Consultative body as an HRG representative. The ICG allied itself to the HRG back in 1996. Its leading protagonists continue to be your most vocal supporters. Can you not understand why some doubt the sincerity of your conversion? What off-the-record discussions take place between you and these arch right wingers that convinces them that you are so worthy of their enthusiastic support?As for the issues of HARH and community cohesion, didn't you bemoan the lack of co-operation you received from Labour on this issue - something which you claimed was done for political purposes?Having said all of that, we have been going way off the subject of this thread. Doesn't it warn in the Code of Conduct about posting off-subject messages?

Robin Taylor ● 6204d

The "issue" is "What are the Tories and Junior Tories doing to our borough?"The very question, typically, is a propagandist statement.Do you consider my colleagues and I to be "junior Tories".  Discuss - and sensibly please, no scrapping.

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

Meaningless - proof the scrapping means more to you than the issue!

Dan Filson ● 6204d

LOL!

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

The post timed immediately before this one (I don't mean mine!) - you'll find it a few lines up 2.19 am on 2 June - again proves my point that the issues get side-tracked by the scrapping.

Dan Filson ● 6204d

HRG?  Strewth, you really do live in a timewarp don't you Robin?  I don't think the HRG (Hounslow Residents' Group) has even been in existence for the past ten years!It really is time you abandoned your old fixations Robin and joined the rest of us in the 21st century.  Take down those yellowing pieces of parchment from the old letters' pages that you have on your bedroom wall alongside your Bay City Rollers posters and move on, for goodness' sake!  There is some good work being done in Hounslow in combatting racism and building community cohesion.  Some of your Labour colleagues have been working closely with me on this front and as the recently outgoing Chair of Hounslow Against Racial Harassment I have been pleased with their work and proud of their valuable contribution.It is sad that there are still some - like yourself, and there are others - who seem to regard racism, real or imagined, more as a vote-catching opportunity than as a live issue to be addressed.  Shameful.

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

Phil.If you are really concerned about the effect of racism on the community then I cannot understand why you do not direct that type of terminology at some of those who are among your most enthusiastic vocal supporters. (I am thinking in particular of certain individuals in the HRG). Sorry, but it just doesn't add up.

Robin Taylor ● 6204d

RobinDo you not think it is repulsive to talk up racism for perceived political advantage irrespective of the possible consequences for our community?On no sorry, I forgot - with your track record you wouldn't, would you?

Phil Andrews ● 6204d

"... a repulsive arse like you".Ah, yes, the old Phil Andrews charm. It's still there!

Robin Taylor ● 6204d

I first read any of this thread today and it makes dismal reading - much of it a slanging match. There are a few sane comments in there Adam Beamish, who comes across a wearied former officer of Hounslow slightly despairing at the mud-slinging and Alan Clark, who must be bemused at intruding into this private grief, and one or two others. But the councillors and ex-councillors bring local politics into disrepute by the way they conduct themselves in this thread and on this site.From what I understand from all this, Hounslow Council may or may not have cut the overall resources to English language education for children without English as their first language. What the Council seems to have done is delegate the funds previously disbursed centrally down to the schools to administer under local management of schools (schools are obliged to spend a certain % on special education needs but can exceed that %). The downside of such delegation is that not all schools have the same % of pupils in need so the resourcing being delegated may not match the need to spend that the schools may have, and the schools may have to make difficult decisions as to whether to buy back into this service or spend the money elsewhere on the majority of the pupils. Some schools will do little or nothing to aid their children with special needs, others go out of their way. Now I don't know if I have read the facts right, partly because the thread is so incoherent, so i may have read all this wrong.I am surprised the Headteachers and the NUT were not consulted, if that is so, but not surprised no Headteachers have joined this thread as they probably despair at the doings of this Council (and that may not be affected by the 2006 election results). As to the NUT, I know Christine Blower who heads the NUT - she was for a long time a special needs teacher in a neighbouring borough, and she is not normally shy at coming forward. If the NUT was not consulted I am sure they are very capable of protesting but this is not an easy issue to get across to the majority of the general public.Yes parents do have a responsibility to prepare their children for school - I learned to read before I got there - but it is expecting a bit much of parents who do not have English as their first langauge ti get their children ready to the same level of confidence in English as their peers in the Nursery or Reception class, and it is equally difficult for children who arrive in England at say age 7 or 9.What a pity this thread could not have been conducted in a rational, unabusive and coherent manner on the actual issues. Both "sides" have a legitimate perspective as to the best way to proceed but it wasn't displayed here.

Dan Filson ● 6205d

DaveIf I had any idea what you were going on about I might be able to agree or disagree with you.You haven't known me for most of my life, thank goodness, but we have had this conversation about "left wingers" and "socialists" before.  Or rather I have, because whenever I have asked you for examples of where I have criticised somebody for being left wing or a socialist you have invariably either ignored me or changed the subject.My problem with the local Labour Party has nothing to do with what political views some of its members might once have held, as well you know.  But by all means keep telling yourself otherwise and remain in opposition if you and yours believe that to be the smartest thing to do.

Phil Andrews ● 6206d

No intrest in left wing politics you have spent most your life slagging of socialists, left wingers, labour party, even claiming as a youth folly a bit part in the NF/BNP whatevers you spent your time directing the foot soldiers on who the enemy was...Ha Ha... as we irish would say is the pope nazi? I am sure like the German Sheperd you are trying to lead us all to a new dawn or is that order...

Dave Hughes ● 6206d

Time certainly hasn't mellowed the original Mr. Angry.

Colin Murphy ● 6206d

ConalI am single-issue, but I am not a politician.  I have no interest in left-right politics whatsoever and don't profess to have.  Why do you get yourself into such a lather over the fact that the Community Group is a community group when we have never claimed to anybody to be anything else?Have you considered an anger management course?

Phil Andrews ● 6206d

I really shouldn't dignify this offensive piece of poison with a response, but I feel a duty to point out that a few years ago you were defending me on this very forum from Labour spokespeople who were attacking me in a similar way.Your attitude towards me seems to have altered rather drastically since my Group went into coalition with the Conservatives, whom you clearly despise.  You may of course have good reason for this, but I think your hatred of our coalition partners has left you a tad unhinged.I believe, from some of your previous postings, that you are a supporter of the Liberal Democrats?  If that is the case then I find myself wondering what the truly excellent Councillor Andrew Dakers has done to deserve the support of a repulsive arse like you.

Phil Andrews ● 6206d

A lovely post Dave,  but the Phil is very good at buck passing.  Phil's brand of excuse politics is something the Tories have been good at.  He's in great company.  I suspect Phil's real view on the language service is that these people who need it shouldn't be here and should all be sent home. Scratch the surface and we all know what Phil is.

Conal Stewart ● 6206d

Rabid, vicious, and utterly right wing.  This man is of the BNP in all but name.

Conal Stewart ● 6206d

How it it deranged to point out your many failings?Very interesting that you never seem to respond to fair criticism of your administrations' actions.  Further you only ever respond with personal invective and insults.Voting for you is like voting for the BNP Phil.  You are a single issue politician - you are only in it to boost the ego of one Pip Andrews.  In fact why don't you go the whole hog and rejoin them?

Conal Stewart ● 6206d

Highly inappropriate that an elected councillor resorts to more personal invective.  The sooner you are removed from office the more respect our Council will get.

Conal Stewart ● 6206d

I don't know the percentages but there are getting on for almost 200 different languages now spoken in this borough. If children are to be able to access the curriculum and integrate, grow and eventually work here then this service is essential. There is a slight problem in that some primary schools have sat on some very healthy reserves for some years, so in this climate it probably isn't unreasonable to expect that they should spend some of that money on language provision, but that doesn't seem to be the way this has been handled. People will at some point hopefully wake up and ask if a few bob less on the council tax is really worth cutting services to the point of extinction and building in public parks for.

Vanessa Smith ● 6290d

Personally I don't think Tim's cut and paste actually answers Sarah's question.  Nice bit of statistics though.But in the broader picture?  Taking the country as a whole entity?Though, I digress.  The language service was to pay for teachers to teach children the language of the country the parents of these children had chosen to reside in.I'm a bit old school, though.  I thought that to be educated in this country was seen as a priviledge, not a 'right' and it was up to the parents to bring their off-spring to the required standard to allow them to enter school and not expect the school to teach the basics of parental upbringing.    

S Passmore ● 6290d

http://www.hvec.org.uk/HvecMain/level2.asp?SubSectionID=199seems to refer to Hounslow Language Service and shows a pie-chart with languages with over 100 speakers in the local authority (English 49%,Panjabi 12%, Urdu 7%, Somali 3%, Gujerati 3%, Hindi 2%, Polish 2%, Arabic 2%, (French,Farsi,Portugese,Tagalog,Bengali shown as 1%)......"We aim to :-• work in partnership wi thHounslow schools.• raise the achievement of EALpupils.• support EAL pupils by providingadditional EAL teachingprogrammes.• provide access to the NationalStrategies.• support EAL Beginners, NewArrivals and Refugee/Asylumseekers.• support schools in developingeffective partnerships withfamilies and the local community.• provide multilingual support toassist schools in assessment andcurriculum access.• support the inclusion of EALpupils and families throughpastoral support."http://www.hvec.org.uk/HvecMain/intro.asp?SectionName=Hounslow%20Language%20Servicehas more links covering topics in greater detail

Tim Henderson ● 6290d

Absolutely.....er, I think!

Phil Andrews ● 6290d

If the mayor is the other end god help us, I think I would prefare extinction as it's obvious if  that is the highest that can be obtained we really are in trouble,  mind you must becoming out of the ape stage as you don't have as much hair as your fellow brothers have now.

Dave Hughes ● 6290d

DaveIt's not for me to tell the Mayor how she should have her hair styled, but she and you certainly make for an interesting comparison.  Mayor Councillor Dr. Genevieve Hibbs BS MPH PhD FCybS MBCS and the guy who writes such memorable prose as this: "This shower only if the conclusion is in their favour otherwise it's a bit like an icy petition have the people on it don't exist the crandird petitions from this lot are prime example."Both ends of the evolutionary scale encapsulated in one thread, wouldn't you agree?

Phil Andrews ● 6290d

Dear dear it's only what the public are asking, I had to get a copy of the chronicle to see what people where on about, and I have to agree is she becoming a Rastafarian.

Dave Hughes ● 6290d

Chair and Vice Chair There's me thinking these were something one sits on. PC rubbish is alive and well apparently!

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6290d

"Mind you this year people are asking who the bag lady is, but when told that's the mayor more qustions follow such as why does her hair look like rats tails and you would think they would chip in to get hair done at least."What a disgrace you are ex Councillor Hughes. Typical Labour, if you can't think of anything,hurl abuse. What is it that you use for a brain, you ignorant moron? Take a good look in the mirror before you criticise anybody. Go nack to school and learn how to conduct yourself.

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6290d

DaveThere are many who find it difficult to believe that you went to any school.

Phil Andrews ● 6291d

Would Billy Liar be your hero then phill, mind you I never claimed to have been to charm school

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

Would Billy Liar be your hero then phill, mind you I never claimed to have been to charm school

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

... what the language service is/what its job is and languages it covers?  What languages are spoken in the Borough and % of people speaking them?

Sarah Felstead ● 6291d

If anybody was wondering who is this man who presumes to criticise another person's looks, as is revealed below:

Phil Andrews ● 6291d

Mind you this year people are asking who the bag lady is, but when told that's the mayor more qustions follow such as why does her hair look like rats tails and you would think they would chip in to get hair done at least.Mind you it must of been most reasuring to have ex-mayor Morgan what's telling the troops about to leave for afganistan that his god was on their side, intresting to know of his personal relationship with his god, the Taliban must be quaking in there boots at this news.

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

Mind you this year people are asking who the bag lady is, but when told that's the mayor more qustions follow such as why does her hair look like rats tails and you would think they would chip in to get hair done at least.Mind you it must of been most reasuring to have ex-mayor Morgan what's telling the troops about to leave for afganistan that his god was on their side, intresting to know of his personal relationship with his god, the Taliban must be quaking in there boots at this news.

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

What???

Phil Andrews ● 6291d

This shower only if the conclusion is in their favour otherwise it's a bit like an icy petition have the people on it don't exist the crandird petitions from this lot are prime example.

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

This shower only if the conclusion is in their favour otherwise it's a bit like an icy petition have the people on it don't exist the crandird petitions from this lot are prime example.

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

So John Connelly and a Liberal Democrat become "most" by discounting all those who voted the other way?  Very New Labour.If anybody should ever ask me what manner of consultation they can expect if your party ever wins back control of Hounslow I shall refer them to this thread and the indeterminate logic of one of its leading local officers.

Phil Andrews ● 6291d

When you look at who is voting for cuts most of them can't evan be bothered to be school governers and learn why these services are important. Then you have the bought vote, these are the people who vote Tory because they get privalage and position if they vote like sheep . I can bet Morgan what's voted for, the story is he was begging on one knee to be made mayor and now he has to pay back by voting Tory. The same goes for the Feltham 2, the reason they got kicked out of the lib-dems is another story, but again they have to vote Tory or lose the positions sold to them, then we have Andrews who entertain not only the council but the web watching community by announcing he is not a Tory rent boy to the whole council. Maybe we should have a vote on wether he is or not on here, it would be more intresting than his excuse politics.

Dave Hughes ● 6291d

Perhaps your English Teacher should face disciplinary action?I did say "most" - which when I taught meant not all!(Do you really expect me to count an Independant Tory and the Chair and Vice Chair of West Area Committee as opposition? [or the ICG???????] as in reality I cant remember them ever voting against the ruling exec - )Yes - John Hardy did abstain - credit to him!I think I ought to also emphasise the verbal opposition to the proposed cuts to the Language Service.Strange that you do not comment on the lack of consultation prior to the Council Meeting.

Corinna Smart ● 6291d

Sorry if I implied anything Corinna, it's just that when I write incomprehensible gobbledegook it's usually after I've had a tipple.I liked this one:"I was impressed that there was cross party opposition to the proposed savings(the Tories and ICG like to call them) /cuts(as they are)from most of the opposition parties.Altho the Libdems as ever could not agree together."Bearing in mind you take a swipe at the Lib Dems for not operating a party whip, who exactly were these "opposition parties" who came together to oppose the budget?Let's take a look at how the parties voted:Conservatives - all forLabour - all againstICG - five for, one absentionLib Dems - mixedWest Area Independents - both forCllr Samantha Davies - forCllr John Connelly - againstMethinks if ever we really do cut any teaching posts we should begin with your old Maths teacher.

Phil Andrews ● 6292d

Shame that Phil Andrews cant or will not answer in a proper manner.I will leave Dave to respond should he wish to.I resent the accusation that I was under any influence other than having spent a couple of hours listening to the Tories at the budget meeting being offensive to many Labour Councillors ( and dragging up history instead of explaining exactly what they were wanting to do with £7 million)The fact that the meeting was allowed to get out of hand - as the Tories were allowed to say whatever they wanted- even the Leader swearing - he did apologise ! But as for the comments of Macgregor/Lynch and Lee well they would not have been allowed to behave like that in Hounslow Classrooms!Lynch did admit that they didn't know where the £517000 savings in the Language Service budget was to come from.It was not discussed at the Schools Forum where Lynch was absent.Hopefully the Council will consult both the NUT and the Heads and the Language Service before deciding where this saving is coming from? Oh yes and maybe they could put this to Childrens and Young People Scutiny Panel?The service is an Excellent one at the moment but only caters for 60% of the needy children of our borough. The subsidy that helps pay for teaching children who arrive with English as a second language is vital for them to perform well in school and in exams. The fact that they do so well is a credit to the teachers of this service.Come on Phil you are all for Consultation.Persuade your buddies on the executive to do likewise! One of the things we did in power was to talk with the Unions before we put our budgets together. The Teachers deserved to be consulted before the event.I was impressed that there was cross party opposition to the proposed savings(the Tories and ICG like to call them) /cuts(as they are)from most of the opposition parties.Altho the Libdems as ever could not agree together.I know we are winning the arguement when insults aimed at Ruth Cadbury, Jagdish Sharma and Lily Bath were being thrown at them!

Corinna Smart ● 6292d

Oh dear.  You and Dave been on the sauce again?

Phil Andrews ● 6292d

As I said in full council:"...taking a short to medium term view and recognising the diversity of the community it is clear to me that we should maintain the Council’s contribution to supporting the Hounslow Language Service.  Shifting the cost of the service onto local schools is simply “cost shunting”.  Their budgets are already stretched in many directions.  "But most importantly the Language service supports community cohesion and strengthens vital skills in our community."Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6292d

Yes - and we've seen other independent bodies (such as the FSA) prove themselves not to be that effective in recent times.  When the Audit Commission interviews all opposition leaders - and responds to concerns we raise with evidence of their assessment of issues we raise - I will have more faith in the process.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6292d

Thought this to be a reasonably sensible discussion...found it to be a diatribe between Dave and Phil. oh no not again...where are the NUT people with their reasonable arguments...and the Head teachers?Suffice it to be said that we now know the Tory/ICT led Admin do not know where the exact cuts or saves to the budget will come from except its 517,000£shame no one bothered to consult with the Unions..or Head teachers or submit anything to scuitney!The Leader said it had gone to Schools Forum - the union leader said it hadn't and guess what who was not at the last Schools Forum...yup the lead member Lynch who stumbled through his presentation on Tues night.as to the behaviour of the Tories that night - where was the chair?an ineffectual chair!Most teachers would not have allowed that behaviour from their students at any age...and our Mayor well...no chairing there!

Corinna Smart ● 6292d

bump

Corinna Smart ● 6292d

I don't think I'm "a bit more right wing than the Tories" nor indeed "right wing" at all, but saying and possibly believing this provides Dave with a great deal of personal reassurance and comfort.  It also helps him to justify, again to himself, the adversarial approach which his party has taken towards us as an organised community which has led directly to them losing control of Hounslow and been consigned to opposition for nearly three years.Without introducing an ideological dimension, there could be no logical explanation for New Labour's strategy.However he is being disingenuous when he says he does not speak for or represent his party.  Until very recently he was an elected Labour councillor and a member of the Council's Executive.  Every posting he makes is either a defence of the Labour Party or an attack on its opponents (or both).  Under the circumstances it is not in any way unreasonable for forum users to assume that he is speaking for his party unless his party makes some kind of effort to come onto this site and disassociate itself from some of the outrageous and unsubstantiated remarks that he makes.There is one on this thread, for example, in which he alleges that ICG supporters have been abusive or insulting towards Asian members of his party.  I have asked him to provide me with an example and he has replied "it is on the webcasts" (of the meetings in question).  I have asked him to indicate which webcast, of which meeting.  He won't, because he simply made it up, but neither will he come back onto this thread and apologise to forum users for misleading them.But what is more important is that neither will any member of his party come onto this forum to disassociate themselves from his remarks.This is why I believe that the local New Labour Party deliberately uses Dave Hughes to spread misinformation of this kind.  It is the same kind of misinformation as its canvassers spread on the doorsteps at election times.  In the case of this forum however, if all goes wrong, they can take a step back and claim that Dave is operating alone and it is "nothing to do with us guv!".  And Dave, being Dave, is willing to play the useful idiot.

Phil Andrews ● 6293d

"So obsessed to say they are controlling council tax the Tories and Junior Tories are going to stitch up our children by the cutting of the language service." How exactly will this "stitch up OUR children exactly? I for one am glad that the days of your Labour luvvies have gone, along with the culture of for example "I'll get your planning application through" accompanied by the usual nod and the wink. Remember Nicola Spink the Planning consultant who slammed the Hounslow Central Committee, when she was called in to examine some of the decisions. One of it's members had also allegedly flouted planning regulations....accidentally of course!!!!!! Compare it to the present committee and notice the difference.  You talk about pseudo Tories, are you seriously suggesting that the lot you call socialists, who had held power for over thirty years, believed or practised Socialism. Had you also forgot the Keens already? Well done Phil Andrews I say for kicking their asses out of power.

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6294d

Dave, I wouldn't have a clue about the accuracy of what you say and haevn't pretended to do so, so I can't understand the relevance of your post to my sole contribution here.My view on staff cuts for what it is worth is that regrettably they are inevitable in the current economic climate and local authorities should be no different to the private sector, if the funding isn't there and in some areas the work isn't there then something has to give, simple as that.

Adam Beamish ● 6294d

The last I heard they had been given 6 million, how many jobs have been cut is it 400 or more how much does this cost society as a whole..The education dept has increased costs to schools for services that they provide in the region of 40% increases..where do the schools get the money from to pay these costs yes from your childrens education..as allways these people are ready to steal your kids education to fund the like's of price waterhouse so that they can make the council workers of Hounslow redundent, this is the record that ICG play the tune too.

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

Then I suggest you re read the thread next you will be telling us Price waterhouse have not alerted the council to serious staff cuts which will effect statutory services, sticking one's head in the sand won't make it go away..

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

Dave, what's up ?!.  From my Council days I know you, I know your wife, I know Phil, I know Paul, and I found all of you to be entirely reasonable and pleasant individuals.  That to me is taking people at face value.  Yet you say you do the same and this entire thread, which wasn't started by Phil, Paul or yourself, is now being dominated by your personal rants about Phil - e.g. never having done a days work in his life etc.  I appreciate you have political differences and in no way am I taking sides but don't you ever review both the quantity and content of your posts on threads and think "I'm really not doing myself any favours" ?.

Adam Beamish ● 6294d

If you stick round enought you will see that Andrews has not done a decent days work in his life, it a bit like the students who where part of workers power there hands are to soft to seen a days work, he tends to spend his days pontificating on here at the tax payers expence.

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

No Phils a bit more right wing than the tories...as for me I speak as I find and no I am not representing the labour party on these forums. But it seems to be a crime if you are a labour supporter here..sometimes it can feel like pre-1939 when the socialists where rounded up and carted off and if you get the drift it is in the same vain that Andrews tries to convince people of the reds under the beds..

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

Thanks Phil - I just ducked onto the Hounslow gov web site for the list of councillors. Sorry if I implied you represented the conservative party.So, Dave, do you represent the Labour party?

Alan Clark ● 6294d

Hi AlanI have some sympathy for you and other users, but when I do get drawn into debates of a political nature I  do endeavour to keep it factual and (although I occasionally fail) not personal.Fwiw Dave Hughes is a former Labour councillor who represented Bedfont ward for some years prior to the 2006 local elections.  Paul Fisher and I are Independent Community Group (ICG) councillors for Isleworth ward.  As far as I know no Conservatives have been involved on this thread, although some Conservative councillors do post on this forum from time to time.Our organisation, the ICG, has no ideological basis but is driven by a desire to empower communities and to minimise the influence of party politics in civic affairs and decision making.  We are the junior partner in the coalition which currently manages Hounslow, along with the Conservatives.I think it is fair to say that we are considerably higher up the New Labour hate list than our Conservative coalition partners.  Exactly why this should be is something you will need to work out for yourself, and when you do the whole thing will fall instantly into place.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

Which webcast is it on Dave?  Please provide a date and, for the convenience of forum users, a timeline.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

DaveI don't understand your last sentence.  The tenants who will identify areas of spend will, of course, be Hounslow tenants.  I don't know where you get the idea that they will be tenants from anywhere else unless, as would appear to be the case, you believe that the dozen or so people who sit at HFTRA meetings are the only tenants we have in Hounslow?Contrary to your allegation that they will be excluded, HFTRA will in fact be involved (at my insistence) in the panel which will decide which initiatives identified by tenants will be taken up.  I believe HFTRA has a very important role to play in the tenant engagement process but I do not take the view, as your party in office clearly did, that it should be employed as a gatekeeper to deter involvement by tenants not under a particular political discipline.The panel will also include the Chair of Hounslow Homes and officers from both Hounslow Homes and the London Borough of Hounslow.  The Hounslow Homes delegation will include the Chief Executive (I'm sure the previous Chief Executive would have loved to have been involved in such a progressive project but sadly he left).You are however correct to say that I do retain a veto, which I would use only under exceptional circumstances if the process was being subverted.  I had the same power of veto when considering applications for the Rainbow Project (another empowerment initiative introduced by the current administration under my portfolio) but it was never used.  Anybody who witnessed the antics of the various tentacles of the Old Guard during the Hounslow Homes Management Review as I struggled to introduce some fairness and democracy into the process of tenant participation (and largely succeeded) will understand why, until the democratisation process is complete, such a veto remains necessary.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

Oh and i am nobody's spokeperson and no doubt we will get the same old diatribe again..bla..bla..he must be a spokesperson because he supports labour rubbish

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

Sorry Alan but you are about to get a long tirade of how Cllr Andrews won the election against the labour left bla bla.. and so on dont worry it really is boring and its not just you who will think so..

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

Its on the web-casts...

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

DavePlease provide users of this forum with one example - just one will do - of when ICG supporters have barracked Asian councillors on grounds of their ethnicity, or mocked their voices or accents?I assume that as your party's spokesperson on this forum you would not make a serious allegation of this kind without being able to provide some kind of evidence or example?For what it's worth, speaking generally I tend to find the Asian councillors in Hounslow's New Labour Party less objectionable in their conduct than most of their white counterparts.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

As a relative new comer to the area, can someone explain the various factions at play here? I can see a Conservative versus Labour issue but it would be helpful if we had a simple note of who is who.Can someone also explain how publically airing these rather poor quality exchanges of insults and accusations is helping this district?  Clearly there is a lot of strong feeling - but remember - this is being read by many people across the community and I suspect few of them will be impressed by the tone of the above.

Alan Clark ● 6294d

And was it not yourself who has shouted out that the board of Housnlow homes which made up of ELECTED tenants and Elected Cllrs should not be trusted with any decision, not only that but your bias includes HAFTRA which is part of the national federation of tenants are to be excluded on the basis that they might be lefties..So who are these secret tenants that some how dont belong to Hounslow to make these decsions will be by rigged ICG ballots again...

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

And the little writting says its Andrews who will say where the money is spent and how its spent..WITH OUT ANY ACCOUNTABILTY

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

DaveI think you need to watch the webcast of the January Borough Council meeting.  The £4m is to be spent on tenant-led initiatives.  This was the bit that upset your colleagues.Your comment about "accountability" to "community groups" provides a useful insight into your deceit and your underhand political ways.  During its many years in office your party specialised in creating such groups to "represent" various interests such as tenants, housing estates and residential communities and engaging with those groups - filled with your party members and other cronies - as "representatives" of the community rather than engaging with the community itself.  When those who weren't chosen to be involved in these incestuous cliques tried to get a foot in the door your policy was to shut them out, often by gerrymandering or by corporately-endorsed character-assassination of individuals.  In Isleworth tenants reacted to this policy by setting up their own groups and associations.It was rather insightful that when my proposals to give £4m to tenants for projects to be identified by tenants were announced the first people into the fray to urge that they be rejected were the official tenants' representatives!  True, they had been misled (by you and your ilk) as to the purpose of the initiative, and withdrew their opposition to my plans when they discovered my true intent, but their willingness to instinctively assume the worst of me taught me a great deal.Anyway Dave, shouldn't you be devoting more of your time to trying to win the next local elections?  A fly on the wall tells me everything isn't as it should be in that department.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

As you know and have been told my wife has been unwell so talking about cheap shots thay dont come any lower tahn yours...

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

As you know and have been told my wife has been unwell so talking about cheap shots thay dont come any lower than yours...

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

Very cheap below the belt shot Davie but I am not surprised anymore at anything you and your comrades peddle.If Hounslow Labour told me the sun was shining I would make sure I left the house with an umbrella.Who wrote your last post for you by the way as I can just about understand it, I presume it was not your wife as she must be away considering all the meetings she has failed to attend recently?

Paul Fisher ● 6294d

If anyone needs the language service it would seem the grunting morons from the ICG could do with it..when I was a Cllr all you could here from the gallery was these morons who would be grunting and making out they could not understand the asian cllrs when they spoke....and it still seems like times haven't changed with attacks on this service from  a bunch of near do wells who seem to think its service just for asian people and that somehow providing this service is depriving the rest of the community..

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

If I had an idea what you are ranting on about maybe I would answer, I think the 4 million that you refer to is the money you have snatched away from Hounslow homes in order to spend on publicity for your cronies without any accountabilty to any community group or tenent or any body in fact..You could of used this money to help those who may lose thier homes due to the credit crunch, but thats a bit beyound your very very limited scope indeed,You could use the money for some of the major regenatration projects needed on the estates but instead you want to spend on silly little whims with out ANY ACCOUNTABILTY spell that out louder for you it might sink in to the stupidly thick skull of yours.....

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

DaveWhat exactly is the purpose of your continued references to "lefties" and "socialists"?  Are you trying to persuade somebody, possibly yourself, that the Community Group's quarrel with your party is driven by anything other than your dishonest and mercenary approach to local politics, and the contempt in which you hold the local community (as evidenced by your opposition to the £4m tenant empowerment initiative announced at Borough Council in January)?Are you trying to convince somebody, possibly yourself, that your party retains anything other than a very distant historical connection to the worthy aspirations of socialism, and that today it is anything other than an essentially non-ideological vehicle for gratuitous social control?And finally, Dave, who exactly is Miss Information?  Is she a lefty or is this to be your latest pseudonym when you next visit my blog?

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

Acording to "Phil I am not a tory rent boy Andrews", we are suppose to beleive that all these teachers are lefties and they deserve to lose thier jobs..The complete arrogence of this man hold no bounds..but when you look at his rants and tantrums it follows a normal line of miss-information he never could lose the OLD NF days of make it up or blame the left..no doubt next he will be blaming the jews next...

Dave Hughes ● 6294d

KathleenI believe there to be ample scope within the Direct Schools Grant (DSG) for providing this service, indeed this is how most other local authorities finance it already.  I have posted about this on my blog here:http://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/03/demonstrations-and-difficult-decisions.htmlI'd be quite happy to answer any other questions.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

Kathleen,No cuts were made to the Hounslow Language Services.

Paul Fisher ● 6294d

Seeing as you've offered, please explain how the budgetary cut in language services is going to affect the services provided?

Kath Richardson ● 6294d

"our CPA score in culture will fall""I would be willing to bet that Hounslow is one of the London Boroughs that are to stop the Audit Commision from showing just how our services are sliding under our Tory-Pseudo Tory Administration""fighting the Audit Commission's accurate assessment of our services"Oh dear, oh dear!  Apologies were never your strong point were they Conal, so I anticipate your embarrassed withdrawal from this discussion sometime very, very soon.  Let's take up the conversation again tomorrow.Victor - I would respectfully invite you to use the search facility on this forum to take a look at some of Conal's earlier postings.  He is not a man whom one can engage in a rational debate with.  His postings are full of spluttering, almost deranged anger and personal insults, and when he is proved wrong he simply exits the debate and goes into a quiet sulk for the following few months.  Under the circumstances I think Paul's response was reasonable, but I would as always be perfectly happy to engage in a sensible debate on this topic with anybody who is level-headed and reasonable.

Phil Andrews ● 6294d

What sort of an answer is that Paul

Victor Mullins ● 6294d

And there was silly old me thinking the Audit Commission was an independent body Conal LOL or perhaps we are all not as SMART as you?Clutching at straws I think!!

Paul Fisher ● 6294d