Forum Topic

Highway Skip Licensing

Hello, my name is Alan Weaver. I am a Scrutiny Officer with London Borough of Hounslow. I can be contacted on 0208 583 2365 by telephone, 0208 583 2526 by fax, or at alan.weaver@hounslow.gov.uk by emailScrutiny members at the council are currently undertaking a review of the authority's highway skip licensing service. All skips on the highway should be licensed by the authority and only approved skip companies can apply for a licence. The skip licence obliges the applicant to ensure that the London Borough of Hounslow Policy for 'The Placement of Builders Skips on the Public Highway' is followed.  Scrutiny memebrs would like to get some rapid feedback over the next fortnight about how local residents view this issue and whether they consider this policy is followed - so the results can be fed into the review.  Thankyou for any comments you may have about this matter. The Policy is as follows:  1. Each skip shall be indelibly marked with the owner's name and telephone number. 2. Each skip shall not exceed 5 metres in length and 2 metres in width. 3. Any skip placed on the highway sahll have a current permit. 4. No skip on the public highway should obstruct access to premises unless the consent of the occupier of those premises has been obtained. 5. Each skip shall be depositied as staed above and shall be positioned so that its longer sides are parallel to the edge of the carriageway and as near to the edge of the carriageway as is reasonably practicable and so that it does not impede the surface water drainage of the highway nor obstruct access to any manhole or the apparatus of any statutory undertaker or the LB Hounslow.6. Each skip shall be placed at least 10 metres from any junction bend or corner.7. At night(that is to say between half hour after sunset and half hour before sunrise) a warning light shall be placed against or attached to each corner of the skip. Failure to attcah warning light shall result in a penalty charge being issued against the owner of the skip. 8. No skip when standing on a public highway, shall contain asbestos, inflammable, explosive, noxious or dangerous material orany material which is likely to putrefy or which otherwise is or is likely to become, a nuisance to users of the highway. 9. No skip shall be used in such a way that any of its contents fall onto the public highway, or that there is an escape of dust from the contents of the skip. 10. Each skip shall be removed for emptying as soon as practicable and in any case no later than two working days after it has been filled. 11. No skip shall remain on the highway pusuant to this permission after the period of the permit. 12. All materials placced in each skip shall be properly disposed of and the highway where the skip has been depositied shall be left in a clean and tidy condition on the expiration of this permission. 13. The London Borough of Hounslow may seek to rectify any skip that is not placed in accordance with the above schedule. In paerticulalr, this shall apply to the lighting of the skip and keeping the area clean, the company/owner depositing the skip shall be liable for any charges.     

Alan John Weaver ● 6386d130 Comments

Well, No, not really but the whole subject is more interesting than one would think.Alan's posting is as a result of a suggestion from me: I sit on the Council's Scrutiny Panel which has an 'oversight function' - in a nutshell we look at aspects of how the Council (or it's partners like the NHS) functions, follow the evidence and come up with recommendations to improve the service. There is legislation that compells the Council to take notice of these.  Scrutiny is apolitical.We decided to tackle skip licensing because it throws up many issues: apart from providing a window on the wider functions of Street Management there are concerns about dangerous skips either because they are over loaded, badly positioned or not lit at night (20 odd years ago my motor cycle collided with an unlit skip - luckily, I sailed over the top of it); the disposal of skip waste - not so long ago a local skip firm was heavily fined for illegal dumping though the owner claimed he was 'improving the land' (lol)The Panel is also interested in damage caused by skips either to property or to the carriageway: skips placed in front gardens without cross-overs often result in damage to footways which results either in cost to the taxpayer or injury. (Having suffered concussion from such a trip hazard this is dear to MY heart!) So you begin to see have this enquiry touches on other areas to.One thing that our Highways Department was not able to tell us was how many skips on our streets are unlicensed. One officer has attested that there are many -  and certainly Richmond Council's experience is that this is an issue -  but there is not data to support this.THIS IS WHERE YOU COME IN!!!!Please report anything you think is dodgy i.e. not complying with the licence terms or you think might be unlicensed (How can you tell? go with your gut; unlicensed skips tend to break the rules - report it to Alan and he will check it against the list of licensed skips.PLEASE participate: this information will help us to get a much better basis of evidence on which to build our conclusions which will improve our Streets.Thanks,Jon HardyCllr for Syon Ward in Brentofrd and Isleworth

Jon Hardy ● 6385d

Reply from Alan John WeaverResponse for Sarah Felstead and Others What is a Scrutiny Officer and what is your role for reviewing the highway skip licence service? Scrutiny Committees and Panels are made up of councillors from all political parties on the council, and in certain instances co-optees from the community. The role of scrutiny can be described as:• Providing a ‘critical’ friend challenge;• Reflecting the voice and concerns of the public;• Taking the lead and owning the scrutiny process; and • Making an impact on the delivery of public services. One of its most important powers is to be able to call in a decision of the Council’s Executive and ask it to reconsider that decision. Hounslow’s process allows councillors to have independent officer support without the risk of advice being disturbed by the interests of individual council directorates, individual officers or other service providers. Hounslow’s Head of Scrutiny & Performance Unit (Sunita Sharma) reports directly to the Chief Executive. Her team contains 4 Scrutiny Officers who support Overview & Scrutiny Committee and 4 scrutiny panels: Adult Health & Social Care; Budget & Performance; Children & Young People, Client & Partnership.As Councillor Hardy has indicated, skips can be dangerous and skip licensing provides a window into the wider functions of street management. Are you independent of the skip service or are you a ‘skip officer’, which I was told was a post separate to the ‘street engineers’ post? Yes, I am independent of the skip services. The Scrutiny Unit is independent of the Street Management and Public Protection Directorate where the Highway staff are based.What is the purpose of the skip policy? Purpose of the skip policy is to apply skip conditions that control the use of skips. Skip licence conditions in most London Boroughs routinely require owners name and telephone number clearly displayed, specific length and breadth measurements, well lit at night and/or provided with fluorescent strips, other issues associated with spillage, access to premises, highway conditions, contents – non explosive, noxious or damaging, etc. Why do we have skip licences? A person wishing to place a skip on the highway must obtain a permit. This is a requirement of the Highways Act 1980 S.139, which states depositing a builder’s skip on a highway without permission is an offence. In Hounslow, only a skip company on the Council’s approved list can acquire the relevant permit so anyone wishing to have a skip has to do so through one of these approved skip companies. There is a range of legislation which authorities can use to control skip. This includes:Highways Act 1980, Section 139, 140, and 140a,Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984, section 65Builders Skip (Markings) Regulations 1984Environment Protection Act 1990 section 34 Why are they so costly and where does the money go? At a scrutiny meeting with relevant highway officers on Monday 11th May, officers stated that the license fees designed to cover the costs of the service. Fees and license fees are being considered as part of the scrutiny review.

Sarah Felstead ● 6372d

Cllr Paul Fisher obtained this information for me.London Borough of Hounslow Considerate Skip Hire Company SchemeFees and Charges & Closing of AccountsDear Skip Hire CompanyPlease find attached the schedule of rates for 2009/10. The rates are applicable from 1st April 2009.Could you please ensure your accounts are up to date. Failure to settle outstanding invoices may result in your company being refused permits.I have also included the terms and conditions of the “London Borough of Hounslow Considerate Skip Hire Company Scheme”, please read carefully. If your company wishes tocontinue in the scheme this document needs to be signed (by an authorised person) on behalf of your company and returned with a copy of your waste transfer licence to the above address.Could I please remind you that it is the responsibility of the skip hire company to ensure that all terms & conditions of the scheme are met, that all skips placed on the public highway have a valid permit and that all invoices are settled on time. Any agreement you have with your customers with regards to lamping and any other conditions is between yourselves, in a dispute we will only discuss with the relevant skip hire company not your customers.If you wish to discuss accounts, invoices or any other matter regarding the scheme please contact us as aboveYours sincerely,Julia WyseNetwork Operations and Streetworks Administrator**********London Borough of Hounslow Considerate Skip Hire Company SchemeFees and Charges 2009/10Depositing of a skip on the public highway*  14 Days £40.00Depositing of a skip in a controlled parking zone*  Please contact LBHDepositing of a skip on the public highway without a valid permit*  charge = Cost of removal & disposal of SkipFailure to lamp skip* £140Damage caused to the public highway whilst depositing a skip on the public highway or a private area* = Cost of repair + Inspection fees + Administration fees* As per the terms and conditions of the “London Borough of Hounslow**********Conditions for a company to be included in theLondon Borough of Hounslow Considerate Skip Hire Company Scheme 2009/10• The skip hire company (SHC) agrees to be responsible for obtaining from the London Borough of Hounslow (LBH), the relevant permit for placing any skip on the publichighway; the current cost of the permit is £40.00.• A permit shall be valid for fourteen days.• Only one skip may be deposited per permit.• A permit shall be issued subject to the terms and conditions of the scheme.• If the skip is to be deposited in a “pay & display” bay or within any other Controlled Parking Zone, the SHC shall contact the LBH for advice and guidance.• The SHC shall be liable for any fees/charges in relation to the suspension of any bays within a controlled parking zone.• The SHC agrees to pay, on request by invoice, the cost of any permits and any other related charges issued under that company’s name. Failure to settle invoices on time may result in your company being refused permits.• If LBH are made aware of an unlicensed skip on the public highway, the SHC shall be liable for the removal, storage and disposal costs of the skip.• If LBH are made aware of an unlit skip (outside of the permitted hours), and there is a need for LBH to carry out remedial action (emergency lamping) the SHC shall be liablefor the fixed penalty charge £140.00.• The SHC agrees to abide to the LBH policy for “The Placement of Skips on the Public Highway” (see attached).• When a skip is to be deposited on a private area e.g. driveway, hard standing or building site and there is a need for the skip wagon to cross a footway or light duty crossover to deposit the skip, the SHC shall be liable for any damage to that footway (The Road Traffic Act 1988 s19 & The Highways Act 1980 s131A). The SHC should make thecustomer aware of this and advise on an alternative location for the skip or advise the customer to contact LBH.On behalf of (Company name):………………………………………………………………………Company Registration Number: …………………………………………………………………….Position in Company: ……………………………………………………………………………………I agree to abide to the conditions of the London Borough of Hounslow Considerate Skip Hire Company Scheme.Signed:……………………………. Print:………………………………….Date:……………………….………...Address:……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..Tel:……………………………………….Fax:………………………………………Invoice Address (if different):……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..The London Borough of Hounslow Policy for“The Placement of Builders Skips on The Public Highway”1. Each skip shall be indelibly marked with the owner’s  name and telephone number.2. Each skip shall not exceed 5 metres in length and 2 metres in width.3. Any skip placed on the public highway shall have a current permit.4. No skip on the public highway should obstruct access to premises unless the consent of the occupier of those premises has been obtained.5. Each skip shall be deposited as stated above and shall be positioned so that its longer sides are parallel to the edge of the carriageway and as near to the edge of the carriageway as is reasonably practicable and so that it does not impede the surface water drainage of the highway nor obstruct access to any manhole or the apparatus of any statutory undertaker or the London Borough of Hounslow.6. Each skip shall be placed at least 10 metres from any junction, bend or corner.7. At night (that is to say between half an hour after sunset and half an hour before sunrise) a warninglight shall be placed against or attached to each corner of the skip. Failure to attach warning lights shall result in a penalty charge being issued against the owner of the skip.8. No skip when standing on the public highway, shall contain asbestos, inflammable, explosive, noxious or dangerous material or any material which is likely to putrefy or which otherwise is or is likely to become, a nuisance to users of the highway.9. No skip shall be used in such a way that any of its contents fall onto the public highway, or that there is an escape of dust from the contents of the skip.10. Each skip shall be removed for emptying as soon as practicable and in any case no later than two working days after it has been filled.11. No skip shall remain on the highway pursuant to this permission after the period of the permit.12. All materials placed in each skip shall be properly disposed of and the highway where the skip has been deposited shall be left in a clean and tidy condition on the expiration of this permission.13. The London borough of Hounslow may seek to rectify any skip that is not placed in accordance with the above schedule. In particular this shall apply to the lighting of the skip and keeping the area clean, the company/owner depositing the skip shall be liable for any charges.14. If you are at all unsure as to the positioning/sitting of any skip, please contact LBH for advice.

Sarah Felstead ● 6372d

The policy listed by Alan Weaver and the policy copied to Skip companies in their contract letter are the same.  Neither of these state that a skip is not allowed on a driveway, parking area or hard standing area which is accessed via a dropped kerb or across a pavement.  This part of the policy is reproduced on its own on the LBH web site http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/index/transport_and_streets/roads_and_highways/skip_permits.htmSkip permits - If you wish to hire a skip, you should contact one of the companies on the London Borough of Hounslow approved list.The skip company will be responsible for acquiring the relevant permit.Skip are not allowed on a driveway, parking area, garden or hard standing area that is accessed via a dropped kerb or across a pavement.I wonder who is responsible for the administration of the skip policy - for checking the wording and for checking the wording on contracts.  Is this another admin (paper work) mistake?  Who is charged with this work and how is their work checked?The contract the skip company signs says“When a skip is to be deposited on a private area e.g. driveway, hard standing or building site and there is a need for the skip wagon to cross a footway or light duty crossover to deposit the skip, the SHC shall be liable for any damage to that footway (The Road Traffic Act 1988 s19 & The Highways Act 1980 s131A). The SHC should make the customer aware of this and advise on an alternative location for the skip or advise the customer to contact LBH.”Has somebody decided that this part of the policy is unworkable or they don’t like it or they don’t want to enforce it or they have forgotten to change the wording from the old style contract?  Who is responsible for the maintenance of the policy?Looking at the policy – is it laid out in the right order - hopefully of importance, the most important bit being Hounslow Council will seek to rectify any skip not placed in accordance with its terms for the placement and use of skips within its boundaries.Who has decided (worked on) the policy?  As policies can be amended under ongoing review and maintenance (particularly once the policy has been in use) I would like to see a date of set against the policy.After a lot of work taking people on tours and taking photographs of damage to pavements, caused by skips and delivery lorries, I was foolishly left with the impression that a number of things had been agreed to address the issues discussed.Absolutely none of these have been instigated – resulting in a complete waste of time – mine – our MP and her office – our other prospective MPs – Councillors – officials – which I have said is a complete shame.Satbir Gill and David Palmer went back with a long list of things to be discussed and letters to be written – I drew pictures of crossovers and outlined how pavements could be improved at no cost to the Council.  Councillor Andrew Dakers saw value in this topic and had meetings with officials taking more time.The only thing which appeared to come out of all these discussions appeared to be the clause saying skips could not cross the pavement which was decided upon after evidence of the recklessness of some skip drivers who can take out pavements beside a development and whole runs opposite.  HGV drivers can turn lorries apparently on a sixpence (I take my hat off to them) but some skip drivers will use pavements and neighbours driveways to turn in.I don’t personally agree with the blanket ban of skips on driveways, but it appears this was the only consideration of the street maintenance people.I am completely appalled that anyone could try to get away with the biggest fob off of all time - damage to pavements is not a problem.  It is about time somebody challenged comments such as this for full accountability.  What on earth do they mean?  There appears to be a huge gap in delivery of services from this department and this should be urgently reviewed to include giving them some long overdue guidance and support.

Sarah Felstead ● 6371d

Mick askedAre skips actually a problem in Hounslow or is this bureaucracy for the sake of bureacracy? Sledgehammer - Nut?Skips can be a huge problem because 1 loaded skip being picked up can cause very costly damage to the street – most of which will be repaired at Taxpayers expense.‘I was told’ photos of damage as it occurs is not enough, because it is not worth the while of the pavement department to claim the money back – I was told it is cheaper just to mend the damage.  ‘I was told’ that using the small claims court does not appear to be the way to claim back costs, time, plus a fine, either.  This was discussed on tours and I related it to Councillor Gerald Mc Gregor on his visit.I have met a lady who witnessed first hand pavement damage, as it occurred whilst a skip was being placed or picked up over solid pavement (no crossover as it was over the pavement into a back garden).  The pavement was not so solid after the delivery and the damage was so bad the pavement had to be closed off.She said she wanted to be a witness and was prepared to go to court and ‘she was told’ that her statement was not good enough, a picture of the damage occurring had to be available.  She had a number of photographs of the damage but these were all taken after she went home and a relative popped out with his camera.If Alan Weaver needs to know her details to chat to her, I am sure she would be happy to talk to him.These are photos taken at that time.  I have report numbers, times and the address plus later photos showing the large number of slabs which were replaced.  If somebody wants to follow this through I wonder whether the admin (paper work) supports the work of the street engineers and the costs to public funds.I could not get my head around how the Council/Councillors/public knit together on the topic of pavement damage.  I would have thought it was in the best interests of everyone that the officials work to their remit – does anyone know what their remit is?Over the ‘20 years+’ as use of the streets and pavement alters and damage increased alongside pedestrian injuries - surely problem solving techniques also evolve, as a part of the job.  When the street engineer is called to pavement damage, in their responsible position should they not be asking why the damage has occurred and then look to discussing ways to stop it from occurring?  To protect pedestrians and the public purse?I do know that the political people have proudly been fighting for money to mend and maintain the dreadful pavement situation in the Borough.  Unless they win over the support of the street people, working through the difficulties the street engineers have in doing the job pedestrians should reasonably expect from them, any replaced pavements will be smashed, very quickly.  What a waste of money. I always thought that the essence of an engineers job is problem solving – maybe the engineers job here is a job title and not a qualification.  What training courses does the Borough make available and is it a requirement to attend?From what ‘I was told’ about proving damage surely the person recognising this would then consider how to go about proving damage?  If the stumbling blocks require changes in legislation to enable this then this is when the policy influencers come in (Councillors and MP). Instead of a Councillor being asked to report pavement damage, surely they should be challenging why it has occurred and what should be done to stop it happening again and whether the policy/procedures being used are adequate?One thing which springs to mind is whether all skips should be licensed and whether the first question somebody enquiring about a skip should be asked, is where do you intend to place it - the second what do you wish to use it for?  A light weight/smaller skip for general household and garden rubbish could be green and go on a driveway?  One being used for earth from foundations/concrete/bricks should go on the road surface, on top of a board to protect the road.  The next question might be is there a legitimate crossover?  If not they need to apply for one.A skip being placed via the use of a raised kerb should have huge penalties imposed?Photos in next posting.

Sarah Felstead ● 6371d

A small light weight skip being placed in a driveway should negotiate a full crossover – not a raised kerb, or one of those ‘semi crossovers’ fashionable 40 years ago, before heavy car use, skips and large delivery lorries.What was the point of the semi crossover?  Possibly for occasional use of a car?  Should these all be replaced with full crossovers now people want to use them daily and with heavy vehicles?  Shouldn’t this be picked up on the yearly pavement check which the Council would proudly say it undertakes, whilst in reality if it is done, it isn’t done very well?How many people have been asked to pay for the full crossover access, particularly as a part of extending a property?The following was taken the other day as an example of blockages on pavement that pedestrians have to negotiate – in this case it is Council workmen who have closed off the footpath without directing pedestrians who find themselves blocked in with parked cars.  It catches a semi crossover in the foreground with many smashed slabs possibly because of vehicular movement over them – ask street scene Alan.I have been taking ‘types’ of street photographs so the following are examples from the random ones I have on file.  The point of posting them is for demonstration that this is what goes on.  Look around at skips in driveways and you will easily find examples for yourself.This was reported to the Council because I wasn’t sure if the sand bags were about to slide down the pathway.I ‘was told’ that an officer had visited the address because I hadn’t given them a house number with the photograph (just a description of where the house was) so we know somebody went out and would have seen first hand the skip on the driveway.I had many conversations about officers being called out to sites where materials block the road or pathway and close off pathways and where pavements are turned into a building site.  One property I was told had been visited for the same reason around 5 times – so why not time plus a fine?  Does the admin (paperwork) for this site justify the public costs?I was told by David Palmer that careful sitting of skips to avoid trees had been added to the Skip policy – I can’t see it there.  Was he told it would be added and therefore past this on to me – or did somebody ignore him or forget to add it or was it considered not important?  This is under a tree and not against a crossover. This was taken on 31 March – no dropped kerbThis was taken on 23 April, same site and I don’t know how many skips later.In exploring where skips should be sited the difficulties of finding a space to manoeuvre them into position should be explored.  All manner of barriers are put out by people expecting a skip or building delivery - most of which are downright dangerous – perhaps a type of boarding with reflective strips and lights if appropriate could be designed so everyone knows the boards to temporarily block parking to allow access?  Remember I am not a street engineer armed with on street expertise and awareness of the issues around pavement damage.  How else can we make it easier for the delivery drivers to be able to drop their materials, safely?I have just seen the posting by Adam Beamish.Thank you Adam.  “Which leaves Councils with the dilemma of is it worth allocating lots of resources in terms of manpower and officer time to an issue which isn't 'supported' by sufficiently strong legal powers.”Unless the people working the H&S on pavements identify the problem and take it on, how will it be addressed and fixed?  If the Cllrs and MP and legal people can’t help then maybe we are down to booking all skips in to have supervised deliveries and pickups as a part of their usage?  How do we stop this damage?The Council cannot say they do not know about a problem with pavements and the danger when walking on pavements as they have the information from people making claims to the pay-off pot.  I wonder if because this is all dealt with in separate departments that they would try to argue that the cohesions of the work within the Council allows them to turn a blind eye to pedestrian danger and ignore it.  Lack of cohesion would surely not be a good enough argument if challenged?

Sarah Felstead ● 6371d

Skips were originally designed for building sites and really need a rethink for use on the road.  Tucking an empty skip well in to the side of the kerb is very tempting in order to keep it out of the way of moving traffic.  Would an engineer, spotting this as a difficulty be able to suggest a slight change in the design for skips being used on roads in the Borough?  A slightly smaller base might be just the ticket?  The larger based ones can be kept for use on building sites, as originally intended.  The skip could be higher or maybe skip loads should be a different size.The difficulty when pushing the empty skip up against the kerb stone is that often the skips ‘pick up legs’ have to go onto the kerb stone or on to the pavement.I posted a run of photos a few years ago to show how skips are moved in to place.  The following two photographs are duplicates from those photographs.I opened my front door one morning to find the driver from this skip company, right up my driveway beside my front door.  My driveway has skip lorry damage to the outside, pavement edge and I know several people with the same sort of damage.  The driver pretended he couldn’t speak English and then denied he had been in my driveway.The piece of wood broke and I suggest, without having a pocket full of engineering equations, that the wood wasn’t long enough to displace the weight from the skip pick up.This photo shows either the wood under a skip ‘pick up’ was not long enough or was not used.I walked past this skip in Gordon Road Twickenham the other day (LBR) and the kerb seems to have quite a lot of skip pick up damage.

Sarah Felstead ● 6371d

The following was I posted shortly after I took the photos and much discussion was had over them.The street engineers contributionThose of you who are still with me (!) may remember I went up to the guy and asked him why he didn’t use a piece of wood under the leg to protect the pavement – and he said ‘because they break’.  From a street overview position I would have several wonders – including how many deliveries does he do a day?What about requiring delivery vehicles (apart from parking on the road for the delivery) to use a ‘weight displacement board’?  If you manage to see a skip or delivery lorry in action, you will often see them picking out old pieces of wood from the skip or off the building site.  Some builders leave a couple of old boards in the front garden for the drivers to use.Taking on board the damage from delivery lorries and skip pick ups – and the total mess the pavements are in – and the dangerous state the pavement could be in after 1 pick up – and the very real risk to pedestrians – isn’t this a suitable time for a street engineer to pick up their equations and work out materials which could be turned into a fabricated pick up board to be carried on the vehicle and used under the feet?  X material in y size = one less risk.Other than that, if you look at the way the driver wants to work, and how they bring the feet down, shouldn’t an adaption be made to the end of the foot to displace the weight?  At present the street people know of the problem and to ignore it is pure negligence.

Sarah Felstead ● 6371d

I think Adam is right; it is time for a short reminder of the real costs.Remember my Mother in Law, Valerie.She was staying with us because her hubby was in very ill in hospital.  Her son took her out for short walk around the block on the first warm day and knowing how dangerous the pavements are they walked slowly and carefully.  As they arrived home he moved forward of her and she tumbled on the slabs outside.  Nearly all the slabs are damaged so it is very difficult to find a flat surface to walk on.  I imagine all the legal intervention levels are set for gaps in the edges of slabs, not for crazy paving, which is what the damaged slabs around here amount to.The slabs where she fell are typical of damage around here, many conversations were held about them.  This is where I explained to a street engineer that the stretches of pavement which have telegraph poles or a tree are less damaged as they are not driven along so are mostly intact.  This is where I promised if a tree was planted I would water it and was then told that I couldn’t do this in case I fell under a car whilst watering. The reasoning in replacing the tree was good, they said, but this department didn’t plant trees but they did do bollards and could place a bollard in the middle of the pavement.  I asked if they could transfer the money to the tree people, and was told that things didn’t work like that.Instead of this the pavement was replaced and damaged again very quickly.  I found a pavement worker outside one Sunday morning replacing some of the slabs and laying them on a loose sandy base which had a gap in it in the form of a line, just in fact where vehicles then smashed them.  I described this poor workmanship to street engineers as I hoped it might provoke some checking of the standard of work.I described it as similar to the way you might weaken a tile to break it, by scoring a line down the side, the pavement is this but the weakness is in the bed under the slab.  One of my neighbours described the work as making two jobs out of one.[When Satbir Gill and David Palmer came on their tour I explained this to them too, then as a part of the tour I took them to some poor Council replacement work and Satbir decided that the replacement work was so dangerous that he reported it for immediate replacement.  I wonder what his department did as a follow up to this information.]Finally instead of levelling the slabs, mortar was applied to the gaps to cover the dips against the broken and raised slabs.  Mortar is not suitable to use on a pavement which has vehicles moving over it (even a non engineer can work that one out) and the mortar fell out over the winter – you can see it in the gutter.Problem solving, engineering style, surely would look at why the crossovers are allowing cars to easily mount the pavements (all discussed); where to use corner stones at the edge of a crossover to block cars from mounting the pavements; when and where to use bollards and trees and when to just relay the pavement with a strong bed to stop movement when cars go over the pavement.  There is also the proper use of parking attendants and the proper use of the yearly pavement check for ongoing maintenance.Kuldip after her fall and several operations – she has very limited ability in walking.Louise cannot bend her knees to do anything with her feet.I have heard of several other people all of whom went for a short walk and now have disabilities.  This is the cost, Adam.

Sarah Felstead ● 6370d

Sarah mentioned that the document for the skip hiring company states:“When a skip is to be deposited on a private area e.g. driveway, hard standing or building site and there is a need for the skip wagon to cross a footway or light duty crossover to deposit the skip, the SHC shall be liable for any damage to that footway (The Road Traffic Act 1988 s19 & The Highways Act 1980 s131A). The SHC should make the customer aware of this and advise on an alternative location for the skip or advise the customer to contact LBH.”I thought "liable for any damage" meant that the skip company had to pay for the restoration of the damage. But looking at s131a of the Highways Act only says:-----------------------------------------------------Section 131A - Penalty for damaging highwaysHighways Act 1980 [Amendment - Rights of Way Act 1990](1) A person who, without lawful authority or excuse, so disturbs the surface of:      (a) a footpath,       (b) a bridleway, or       (c) any other highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway other than a made-up carriageway, as to render it inconvenient for the exercise of the public right of way is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.(2) Proceedings for an offence under this section shall be brought only by the highway authority or the council of the non-metropolitan district, parish or community in which the offence is committed; and, without prejudice to section 130 (protection of public rights) above, it is the duty of the highway authority to ensure that where desirable in the public interest such proceedings are brought. -------------------------------------------------and the fine of level three on the standard scale is a maximum of £1000.I suppose that the fine does not find its way back to the Council coffers and I wonder what the costs of bringing the prosecution are and what the cost of repairing a footway is.Interesting to see that the Act says it is the duty of the highway authority to bring proceedings (but only if it is in the public interest - has the authority formally decided that in view of the minimal fine and expense of proceedings it is not in the public interest to prosecute ?).Could we ask how many SHC's have either been prosecuted by Hounslow or have successfully been chased for contributions to repair damaged footways in the last three years ? ( Do I feel a Freedom of Information request in the offing....)

Tim Henderson ● 6370d

Sarah has done some hard work and her post 29/05/09 16:56:00 gives good evidence of why pavements end being broken - as Jon Hardy has said this is first class evidence. Even a £1,000 fine plus costs (and company time being taken) must help to deter these cowboys.If as I suspect the legislation provides for inadequate penalties and may face Adam's bugbear of difficulties in enforcement, there is the option of Hounslow promotion a Greater London (Powers) Bill or similar, a kind of London-wide bill promoted and supported by a majority of the London boroughs to widen the powers and stiffen the penalties. There is usually one such bill per year covering a variety of London concerns. There is an issue of how much councils use their enforcement powers - it would be helpful if someone - LBA? - assembled data to find out, and what penalties the courts are imposing.As someone partly sighted, I have a slight vested interest - it is unlikely I will walk into a skip, even unlit, but wobbly pavements etc are a risk, as are overhanging hedges and branches. At the moment I believe many boroughs pay out more on compensation for injuries caused by pavement falls than they pay out on pavement repairs and replacements (this may be wrong, I don't know for certain) so there is a further incentive to stop skips causing problems.All credit to Alan Weaver for starting this thread - his initiative shows some Council officers do try to reach out to the communities they serve and no matter how scrappy his initial post he will have had much to digest and to dwell upon!

Dan Filson ● 6370d

Hi Philippa.  I think I can answer some of your points with photographs.I agree with you about level loads.  I suppose it is obvious - that an unsupported top load could fall off and kill somebody/cause an accident.  Often it looks as if it would only take a bump on a road hump to dislodge the load - and you can frequently hear how the drivers hit road bumps (clang, clang, bang).There are some skips with an extra side piece which allows the load to be built up higher and maybe this sort should be used on the road, or maybe level should mean level.  I have seen so many ‘built up’ skips that the normal loaded skip looks really small.In the last few days I have seen a motley assortment of tarpaulins being used on skips overnight - mostly dark and many not tied properly so they float around in the wind and could easily affect a motorcyclist or cyclist.If the skips are supposed to be lit to be seen then tying a dark tarpaulin over the reflective strips is not a good idea.  Maybe the tarpaulins should be sent out with the skip and should be reflective or maybe an engineer could design a lid which is reflective and longer lasting and pops on top of the level load?As far as the ‘level load’ goes I wonder where they take the skip to be tipped.  Maybe Alan Weaver and the scrutineers should look at that, too.  Is a skip charged by weight or by load in which case when they get a double load in, how do they account (£) for it.This is a Twickenham skip (LBR) which I took a photo off because there is an engineering angle to this skip, but I now realise there was a tarpaulin attached, too.  Can cover the engineering angle later. This was a night time skip (under a tree)Same skip another nightEaling skip an nightAnd one with some reflective strips still showing

Sarah Felstead ● 6368d

Dan - I worked in local government for many years and now work on the other side of the fence as a consultant.  Dealing with Councils at times can be an absolute nightmare in the 21st century, because Councils are completely target driven.  Which would be fine if the targets were relevant, but they are frequently not, e.g. number of rings before someone answered your call.  So great a Council boasts that it only takes an average of 3 rings for someone to answer your call, but what that target doesn't tell you is that the recipient of that call is just the switchboard and you then spend 10 minutes being passed round.  Many Councils now have a policy whereby the switchboard will not put you through to the person you want, but will only take a message to pass onto that person and they are supposed to ring you back within 48 hours, and Officers are not supposed to give out their direct line.Aside from the obvious implications upon the public of such policies, I increasingly find that this virtual 'avoidance' of the big bad world outside means that some Council staff themselves are poor at conversing with people outside the Council, not used to conflict or having to push or challenge themselves to strive to develop etc, so their career development also suffers.I regularly submit planning applications for clients, paying statutory large fees (5-6 figures) relating to multi-million pound projects, sometimes much smaller fees/schemes.  Invariably I find an unwillingness on the part of Council Officers to return calls, whilst it is also fairly common for them to raise no concerns or objections until the last minute so the client has no chance to address those concerns.  The usual response you get from Councils when you complain is "oh well, you've got the right of appeal or can re-submit an amended scheme using your one free go" which shows a complete disregard for the additional fees the client incurs and also, the cynic in me believes, means that there is less risk of a Council officer being made redundant because, if that stance is taken with lots of applications, then that means extra work for the Council, even though frequently that extra work and resources wouldn't have been required that the Council behaved more reasonably in the first place.Again it's all about targets, woo hoo Councils boast how they determined 87% of major applications within 13 weeks - doesn't give any indicator about the actual quality of service.So what hope is there about skips ?!.

Adam Beamish ● 6367d

Adam talks about targets and there are targets in all walks of life.  The ones set by Governments and Councils are often impossible and unworkable without a quality of service, often create other problems and often appear to be ill-considered and un-thought out executive decisions.  He is right to speak out about them and his obvious frustration with the situation shows.  These problems will not go away by trying to push them out of sight by trying to take too much control without the wherewithall to enforce it.  Hiding the problems means that the public and particularly neighbours can be uncertain and intimidated by unlawful and dangerous behaviour.Open discussion and more information available as to what the general public should be able to expect from Councils to protect them (and I don't mean house value here but safety) shouldn't necessarily mean that the Council would have to do more but less.  The responsibility needs to be shared and then we might ALL get a better solution.Householders need to know that they have to hire from a registered waste carrier and that skip companies have to adhere to safety regulations and laws. Councils need to make sure that that the skip companies that they register meet particular criteria eg having public liability insurance etc before they put them on an approved list and that they then CAN and also WILL take them off it if they  do not comply with the laws and regulations which are there for everyone's safety.  Skip companies need to know where they stand with this open and published criteria as well.Perhaps then the better solutions that are needed can be found.  Please forget party political ping-pong and try and be more positive in sorting the situation out.  The pavements and methods of working seen are dangerous.

Philippa Bond ● 6367d

I think "number of rings before someone answered your call" is a worthwhile target, and in my office we certainly try to do so, not least as in open plan a ringing phone is a distraction! But it needs to be a target which is also imbued into the actual rooms where people work, of dealing with all calls correctly, courteously, concisely and completely. Councils should also strive to enable callers to bypass human switchboards and dial direct to the relevant extensions. One of the problems with business by telephone however is that it is harder to prioritise work - a ringing telephone will always barge itself ahead of a pressing letter, even if the issues in the letter are of moment, and even if the letter recipient has prioritised dealing with that letter as the next task.Planning departments have another problem, that of not committing an opinion that is not theirs to give. The officers are just that - officials of the planning authority. Many applicants or would-be applicants would love to discuss their proposals pre-application or post-application, but that puts the officers in a difficult position. In my experience too many applicants do not consider sufficiently the borough plan and the policy guidelines.I don't however see why, because of the problems that exist on both sides with the planning applications side, the monitoring of skips should be neglected. That is, if I may say so, like arguing that keeping pigs is tricky because the cows need milking.

Dan Filson ● 6367d

This was in South Street last night – one light fixed which was not lit.There appears to be a heavy load of bricks in the built up part of the skip.Will the wood used to build the skip up, hold the weight of the bricks?  If the skip is left and it rains and the wood absorbs the rain will that weaken the wood?  Will a parking attendant notice the unsafe load?  It could after all collapse without the skip being moved.  How about the street sweepers and how about the Safer neighbourhood teams on patrol?What action do the SNT take if they find a potentially dangerous skips?  Can they fine?  Do you give them access to find out if it is a legal skip?Did the out of hour person (representing LBH) who attended to place lights on it, last night, follow it through by closing the footpath off around it/calling the skip company out to deal with it/ calling the person who is responsible for hiring the skip out to deal with it?  It should be registered (do they check before going out? and if it isn’t, what action do they take?) so surely all the contact details are on file and accessible through administration, to the out of hours service.The new skip in College road has been placed where there has been a skip, off and on, for months – I don’t think I ever seen lights on it.When the out of hours people attended this skip last night, finding the dangerous tarpaulin (which I understand they were told about in the report call) what did they do for safety?If they cannot touch that tarpaulin, did they use the contact information from the registered skip details to call out the responsible person to make it safe?  How much do LBH charge for these call outs?  Did they have to wait with the skip until the responsible person came and sorted the tarpaulin out?  Did they have to call somebody else out to wait with the skip whilst they went off on a more important job? If we cannot do fines, then surely we can do time and costs?  How is the administration recorded to claim this all back?  Night call outs must be at a higher hourly rate?  Do they have a minimum call out time, charge?  The cone beside the skip does not have reflective paint on it.This morning there are lights attached, possibly from out of hours

Sarah Felstead ● 6367d

You're right, a ringing phone is a distraction, but that's why it doesn't need to be a target - if some lazy individual is sat at their desk and can't be bothered to pick up the phone with a relative degree of promptness then someone should have a word, end of problem.Pre-app meetings on major applications now cost, typically, several thousand pounds, and, like you say, at the end of it all the applicant only gets an informal Officer opinion.I prefer Officers, when I submit an application on behalf of a client, to give an informal opinion and keep me informed during the determination process, whereas nowadays the standard line you get is "well you submitted the application in its current form so we can determine the application" - in reality it's just to keep their performance figures good.  Had a job afew months back where despite extensive chasing on our part, 11 weeks into a 13 week major app, having done various tweaks to address prompt comments made by the GLA and all other statutory consultees, the Highways Officer and Urban Design of the actual Council itself, who had never made any comments until that point, suddenly said "we don't like it".  Case Officer says "they don't like it, you haven't got time to make any more changes before the 13 week statutory deadline, it's going to be refused".  We subsequently meet with those Officers and their concerns are extremely minor, but my client has to go through all the expense and time/delay of resubmitting.I know of some Councils where officers aren't actually allowed to give an informal opinion/confirm their own recommendation until the big boss has agreed their recommendation - it's no surprise why the general quality of staff in planning departments has deteriorated over the last 10 years.Back to the skips issue, if you read Sarah's latest email from what she saw last night and what she'd hope to see from the out of hours service then it shows, in my view, how the expectation of the public towards any Council is so wholly unrealistic, the pigs you mention keeping are flying in the sky.And please don't bring politics into this, did the skip issue exist before May 2006 ?!.  I actually agree with you re. the trip to MIPIM (Cannes) - everyone in the business knows it's nothing more than a booze up, I'm in the business and I only know one person that went, an ex-Sales Director with a major housebuilder, whose a friend of mine and went for the sole reason to party.  As I've said before, there's nothing Councillors or Officers could have learnt at MIPIM (well at least nothing related to regeneration or planning ;-)) that they couldn't have learnt by going to a training day/seminar in London or visiting local planning consultants/architects etc.

Adam Beamish ● 6367d

I lost you Adam - why is it a pipe dream to expect the out of hours service to claim back for the service they provide correcting safety aspects of skips?Don't taxi's charge extra after midnight?  A midnight call out for a plumber is going to cost extra?  Why not expect the skips to be tied up safely for the night by the owners or person who hires them?I didn't go back and check out the skip in South Street but the picture I would have found easy to take there would have been toddlers and small children and mums pushing buggies alongside the skip, thinking they were safe.  The Blue school is just past the skip.Both these skips has call outs last night for lights and would have been charged for the call out and lights - what about the tarpaulin and unsafe load?  Was it left as a safety hazard, because the LBH person could not touch it and had no method of calling somebody to sort it out?Ignoring people by not answering calls or not replying to calls or arranging days out visits then not carrying work through or not maintaining proper administrative work records, wastes much unaccounted for time, and Tax money.  There appears to be a lack of reviewing work procedures and standards so who is – who is in the line of information to challenge accountability for what is going on?Coordinating work and information and guiding ways of working is a management issue.Fobbing people off with wrong answers or a shoulder shrug or when challenged about an issue replying with they are ‘not aware’ there is a problem is unacceptable.Cllr Jon Hardy said above ‘At present the line from Street Management seems to be that they are not aware there is a massive problem so it isn't a priority for them.  But then they do not have an effective way of collecting data in this matter.’  Blinkers allow very dangerous practices to develop.Don't have a go at me because you are so angry (probably rightly) with the issues you face in dealing with Councils.  Most of what I am talking about is very easy to set up and deal with if you take a step back - which is what I am hoping the scrutiny committee are asking for by raising this for discussion.

Sarah Felstead ● 6367d

Adam, misunderstanding then, sorry, glad we cleared that up..The scrutiny review should include how a skip is dropped off and picked up including the methods they use to do this which should be discussed with skip companies.Ideally a fully loaded skip would be ‘picked up and taken away’ – especially as the full load can be very, very, heavy.The first skips out from building sites around here carry bricks, concrete and soil from preparatory work, clearing a site for building.  The first few skips often make the most damage to the pavement.  If they don’t actually break the surface they can seriously damage the subservice which can lead on to weakening and break up damage at a later date.  A street engineer could explain about sub surfaces and future problems from top surface damage.  Does anyone know what a full rubble skip averages?If you are able to spot a skip pick up to a front driveway where a second skip is being left behind, empty, you will probably see the following.Skip lorry arrives with an empty skip.Lowers stability/weight bearing feet onto the ground (often there is one foot on the property and one foot on the pavement which accounts for single punch holes on the pavement when a skip lorry has two feet).  Different sized and thicknesses of wood are used under the feet, often taken from the building site, itself.Picks up the full skip and takes it over into the empty skip on the back of the lorry using the weight bearing feet.Links the two skips together (the full one is now inside the empty one) and takes them BOTH back over the rear of the skip lorry using the weight bearing feet again.The full skip and empty skip are on the siteThe two skips are uncoupled and the full skip is again raised using the weight bearing feet, back on to the skips lorry.The load is covered and then driven away.Skip drivers often use the pavements, in a line, outside on the same side as the property, to drive over or park on.  They often use the pavements opposite in order to reverse the skip to the drop off site.  There seems to be no comeback over this not even ‘if caught doing this (caught once, got away with it x or y times?)  =  companies license suspended for z months?’Who do you want to be responsible for the damage and for taking care not to damage the pavement?Skip companies and delivery lorries often have great difficulty in finding the reasonable space they need to do a drop off a skip safely – what can be done to help with this?  What could be agreed to be used to block off road space safely so they can do the job the way LBH wants it to be done?I will try and find some photos of a skip lorry doing a ‘hockey cokey’ delivery.Well it is a hot day.  :-)

Sarah Felstead ● 6367d

I understand what you are saying, Dan.  I have been told Hounslow doesn't go in for this because it isn't worth their while, financially, to take ths route.Even when a trained street engineer has a skip in the driveway and severe (skip) damage on the pavement which he has to allocate money to fix, he will refuse offers from witnesses.This is a subject I hope the scrutneers look at as it must be a huge disappointment to get so far with pavement damage and not be able to get the money back.I would have thought it was worth trying to work with the skip and delivery companies to help get their cooperation, and if that doesn't work a least trying to get some of the money back by the small claims court.You remember the damaged pavement that my Mother in law fell on caused by sub standard fixing of previous pavement damage.  Posted above 29/05/09 18:05:00 It was mended within days with a lovely patch of tarmac and talk then was about how tarmac doesn't get damaged - well it does and there are many punch holes around the streets to show for it - best look on a rainy day.Deliveries to a neighbours building site across MIL's tarmac often took on this formOne of these made dent in the tarmc and I was told that they were going to get the money bak to repair the dent - but I don't think anything happened.By the end of the development the skip lorries mounting the pavement opposite, had broken a whole run of slabs (some of which were mended, badly by the Council at taxpayers expense) and the tarmac has been badly dented.Skips were in the driveway when planning and building people came along for their surveys and to check out the size of the porch, which the builder built out, knowing he would get away with it.

Sarah Felstead ● 6367d

Sometimes after pavement damage the pedestrian is lucky, in that the crazy paved bits are pushed down and form a firm bed.  Other times they are not so lucky and they move and rock and catch the foot with one piece of a broken slab going down and another piece of a broken slab going up.All this has been witnessed by the Street engineers but maybe they have decided that they have other priorities and that is why they don’t see this as a problem.The falling pedestrians definitely see it as a problem but if nobody challenges this on behalf of the pedestrian - Hounslow will appear to prefer to pay out from their £illion pot as it is cheaper than sorting the problem out (as told to me by a new Councillor and would explain the Councils complacency).This stretch of pavement had been agreed by the street engineer that it should be half tarmac because of the repeated damage to the slabs by traffic.  Either the street engineer forgot or later decided not to bother or somebody lost that admin (paperwork) but it was mended with normal sandy bedded slabs and damaged within days.June 2009One view along this stretchFeb 2009Street workers parked on same pavement (Thames water contractors I think)June 2009Other view of same stretchThe intervention levels were probably set and intended to apply to the edges of firm paving slabs, where a pedestrian could find a safe surface to place their foot, between the edges.  I wonder if somebody should challenge what intervention levels are appropriate for smashed slabs you have to pick your way through.  Spot the whole slab would be the game around here and the street engineers know this, yet apparently they are saying they do not consider it a problem or priority.  What is a problem and what is a priority for them in making the pavements safe?This skip at one end of the photo above has been very carefully set onto protective boards.  There appears to be some skip foot damage to the tarmac just outside the driveway – I bet a short conversation with the house owner will tell you when this occurred.June 2009I have posted this photo before – skip carefully sent onto protective boards.  I wonder why the street engineer hasn’t designed a purpose made board to solve this problem, particularly with pavement tarmac.  How do they view the problem with their pocket equations?  How does LBH want them to view the problem?March 2009

Sarah Felstead ● 6365d

Finding a drop off space for a delivery is difficult for all delivery drivers and might be worth exploring when setting out planning approval – where do they expect to have deliveries made and what instructions will they issue to the delivery company – along with how will they remove their waste and where will they place skips.This might make the site owners think about this and ask their builders to discuss this with them, especially as some sites will be very difficult to approach.This sequence was taken in TwickenhamYou can see the tyre tracks on the pavement – the slabs are being pushed down against the drain – possibly by a succession of HGV’s visiting the site to make their delivery.  This is a strongly laid pavement but even the pavement will give against the side of a drain cover.One such drain cover was shown and discussed with David Palmer and Satbir Gill on their visit, in the middle of a crossover which we had discussed through drawings, should be tackled by Satbir organising letters to the owners to get them to apply realign the crossover.  Driving across the pavement is causing the pavement to deteriorate.I don’t know what the stumbling block to sorting this out was, but the pavement, which was dangerous at their visit, is now seriously dangerous and was ignored on the yearly pavement check as well.  If this is not followed through then it will be left to the pavement mending pot to pay out to make this stretch of pavement safe for pedestrians along with the insurance pot to pay out for another disability.I may post some photos if covering the (very questionable) yearly pavement check, later on.

Sarah Felstead ● 6364d

When I reported a skip last November, I received the following reply :Thank you for your e-mail. You are correct XXXXXXX are one of  the approved skip contractors authorised to work in the borough.Unfortuanately when a skip is dropped into a garden or hard  standing we have no enforcement powers.We can enforce skips on public  highway under the highways act but off road is a very grey area.i  personally have been asking for an enforcement officer to work  alongside myself for over 5 years now. If you could bring this to the  attention of the highways manager Satbir Gill at the same e-mail address it might push him into some action.-------------------------------I then replied:Thank you for the very prompt reply.I asked about it as I could not see their name on the list of approved skip hire companies athttp://www.hounslow.gov.uk/skip_hire.pdfPerhaps they operate under another name ? Or is the list out of date ?The Council skip permit page says "Skip are not allowed on a driveway, parking area, garden or hard standing area that is accessed via a dropped kerb or across a pavement."And this does not appear very grey to me !As you suggest I have copied this in to Satbir Gill (I hope I have the correct email) and also to my Cllr. Jon Hardy who I have contacted previously regarding apparent breaches of skip regulations.-----------------------------------------------------To which I received the reply :Good Afternoon,Thank you for your reply.My most recent skip company list have a XXXXXXXXX company and a YYYYYYY company.In any case this company are breaking the highways act section 184 re transporting a skip accross the footway. I have no problem liasing with councillor hardy about this matter.MANY THANKS(I have changed the actual names of the skip companies referred to).

Tim Henderson ● 6362d

Hi Sarah,You know what I'm going to say, as I've said it before, but issues relating to damage to the public way when deliveries to a site are made are not material planning considerations and therefore cannot, in law, be explored when assessing the planning merits of a development.Equally, any restrictive conditions imposed upon the grant of planning permission have to pass what is known as a six point test as set out in Circular 11/95.  Any restrictive condition relating to drop off spaces for delivery would fail that 6 point test and be 'ultra vires'.Otherwise what in real terms you could end up with is Mr. & Mrs. Bloggs, who have submitted an entirely acceptable (in planning terms) application for a new two-storey extension, having the entire application either refused or thenm hauled before the courts for a breach of condition because one delivery driver out of the many that would visit the site in the course of construction has basically messed up.  That driver is totally out of their control, if he/she decides to mow down every pedestrian in the street whilst driving on the pavement in the process of delivering a pallet of bricks to the site then it's his problem, not the developers.As many people (be there one-off applicants for modest-sized development or big national organisations) will confirm, getting planning permission is already a sufficiently complicated business, with applications having to be accompanied by suatainability statements, planning statements, design and access statements, air quality assessments, energy assessments, flood risk assessments, contaminated land studies, retail impact assessments etc, so it really would take the biscuit if central government (DCLG) ever tried to introduce what you would like to see.

Adam Beamish ● 6359d

How did the Skip (or any) Policy come to be?  I mean, did 'bright spark' holed up in a room at the civic centre place a few ideas on the wall and then chuck darts at them, writing up the ones which the dart hit?The decision that skips should not cross the pavement, came about after the tours and photos and, after great deal of time discussing the issues.The intention was (I thought) to minimise and protect pavements and pedestrians and to consider Hounslows legal lialility in protecting pedestrains.As we know LBH has admitted knowledge of the damage caused by skips (the policy admits this even if we weren't first hand witnesses to the story of the £illion compensation fund) and yet it has not enforced the policy, does that mean it is liable for all falls where there has been over-pavement damage because of a skip, regardless of heights of holes/rockers etc? If the skip damage had not been there, would the pedestrian have fallen, might be the question the legal people should be considering after all this time of inaction by the Council.Surely the policy was drawn up with legal expertise and the legal prowess of the street engineers, so how come they did not enforce it.If they are now suggesting that they knew it might not be enforceable why did they not state this at the time instead of allowing the Council to have egg on their faces from bad advice or fobbing off?  Who is accountable for the waste of office time and for not applying their training to the subject, at the right time? Councillors in their own right, out and about, can see it doesn't work, so why are they not individually challenging the policy?The point of me sending pictures of damaged pavements was so Councillors could take issue with the subject, even though it wasn't a photo of their area.  If it happens here it happens in their area too.Overall it is a Borough policy under challenge so is it not in their interest to challenge it individually and collectively?  Is this not the real work of and role of a Councillor and the real role of making a difference when in the job?Smashed pavements were not laid that way.  Smashed pavements have been vandalised.  Smashed pavements cause a loss to public funds and are a danger to health and the policy should be seen to be working to satisfy legal responsibilities.Who has been fobbing who, off?  And is this the tip of the iceberg?So, what have I just witnessed?How about another parking attendant witnessing a builders van parked right across the pavement, having a friendly chat with him before going back to his van.  Do you think he then went off to Chiswick for some serious ticketing?This was the last time I saw a PA in the streethttp://app.nnet-server.com/server/app/forum/ShowMessage.asp?ID=464692Should we reasonably expect a PA to book a builder parked across the pavements?  How might we stop them from doing it again?The PA today is different to the PA last time, so this must be another waste-of-time-policy.  How much did it cost the PA to drive here, get out of his van, talk to the builder, and watch the builder drive off across the pavement?  If this happens regularly maybe there can be an official warning instead of a full blown ticket, of a £10.  Did he give a warning? Or did they check on the weather forecast?Any Councillor interested in how parking tickets and policies are followed and applied in order to evaluate consistency of approach?  Any Councillor wishing to challenge this method of working of an LBH agreed policy?Would anyone who has been ticketed elsewhere have a right of appeal because the policy is not being applied evenly and fairly?

Sarah Felstead ● 6354d

Adam said at the top of the thread"Well Sarah has often posted on here about issues relating to skips.  Does seem a little 'odd' to me that, for what appears to be the first time ever, a Council officer is posting on here actually asking for opinions about a specific issue (a relatively minor issue at that).  Have to say it seems abit 'fishy' to me, one residents makes a fuss (no criticism of Sarah intended), and suddenly the Council are looking at formulating a whole policy around it and specifically consulting on here."Is it 'one' resident?  and have the Councillors not seen the waste of tax payers money delivering a very unsatisfactory service, with their own eyes?I e-mailed picture and taken them out on tours and specifically been out on a tour with people from the street engineers team - who know the damage is being caused through building work - so why is there no work being done to stop the damage?  That is all I have been asking for the last 6 or so years.How many people contact or talk to Councillors about pavements?  I know the police said that it was brought up by nearly everyone attending a street surgery in our road.  Most people see it as vandalism.  If the front window of the civic centre was repeatedly broken, would they just mend it, or what would happen?  Would somebody ask why it is broken and why it keeps being broken?  Would they want to fix it and why?This is one of the photos sent into the civic centre in 2004 and links to the posting I made on 24/9/2004September 2004The following damage was a skip lorry on Wood Lane.March 2005What I said about the skip damage on Wood Lane is the same as what I have written about CHR.  A lot of money was spent making the road look good - and Wood Lane looked lovely after a complete replacement of the pavements.  It was lovely to drive along, which I did regularly, and see money well spent to make an improvement to the area.What I didn't and still do not understand is how, very quickly the pavement was damaged by skips and delivery vehicles and how there seemed to be a total lack of interest from the street mending team!  I still do not get it - something is very wrong.

Sarah Felstead ● 6350d

From an internal e-mail I have been copied into.  The section on skips in front gardens makes interesting reading:"1 Unlicenced Skips Here are the results of the skip survey carried out during RSIs in May and June. The results show a total of six unlicensed skips.  Of these three were in publicly maintained rear access roads, where it is likely that the skip operator did not know that a licence was needed.  A fourth was associated with building works being carried out on behalf of Hounslow Homes.  Our inspector spoke to builder and they did not think they needed a licence; we have taken this up with Hounslow Homes.  Technically this would be unlicensed highway occupation, the skip belongs to the builder not a skip operator, and there was a container also.As noted on the report this survey covered 22.4% of the public highway network. <> 2. Skips in drives and front Gardens At present, no permit is required for placing a skip on private land whether it is a driveway, a front garden or land adjacent to the public highway. The repair of any damage done to the footpath ( if proven) can be charged to the offender, or in most instances to the site owner. It is not yet known how much is spent each year on repairing footpaths which have been damaged by vehicles crossing .In order  to deal effectively with the issue of skip lorries damaging the public highway it will be beneficial for the council to ask skip companies to apply for a permit to place skips in the private land similar to applications for scaffolding or hoarding licence. An inspection of the site will be undertaken before the skip is placed , for which a charge will be made , the condition of footway noted and photos taken. A deposit will be taken from the skip company which will be returned after the second inspection following the expiration of the permission if no damage to highway is caused. If the damage is caused then repairs are carried out and the balance amount is refunded.The full details of the proposal will need to be finalised and approved by the Executive."It seems to me that there is a strong argument for having a licence where the skip has to cross a footway (as opposed to a dropped kerb) given the high level of damage caused in such circumstances.  I will be supporting the introduction of such a licence.

Jon Hardy ● 6324d