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“Nothing will persuade you that the EU is the successor of, and evolved from, the EEC and that the 1975 referendum was in effect irrevocable and not a cut-and-come-again exercise. I and millions of others grasped that but you obviously don't so there can be no meeting of minds on that.”- Again, lots of touching sentiment, but not a lot of accuracy or detail.Once more, you’re contradicting your own arguments. The EU is indeed a “successor” to the EEC but the EU and EEC are demonstrably not the same thing – otherwise we wouldn’t have needed the Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon treaties. We wouldn’t have had the codified constitution or Convention on the Future of Europe either.It’s not mere semantics, it’s supranational law (or not, as was the case with the codified constitution).And if the “1975 referendum was in effect irrevocable”, why have Ireland, France and the Netherlands had ‘em? There was no provision in the Treaty of Rome or the 1975 referendum against subsequent referenda. Given the treaties of Rome, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon became UK law, there’s no prohibition against UK referenda.While you’re free to reach your own conclusions, they’re not in fact supported by the texts of subsequent treaties. You “and millions of others” are quite wrong.-------“The UK cannot secede because there is no provision”- Again, you’re absolutely wrong in this statement.Absence of a provision for secession isn’t a barrier to secession. There’s currently no prohibition against any EU member state upping and leaving.The Lisbon Treaty merely formalises the framework for exit terms – it doesn’t create a provision for exit. Have you actually tried reading any of the treaties?-------“...cause the issues to get simplified into simplistic and distorted summaries and it is very difficult to conduct any detailed or intelligent debate.”Absolutely – you’re a prime example of this.-------“In brief, I am a believer in representative democracy, that our democratically-elected representatives in their various councils can make better decisions on our behalf than we can in Yes/No referenda.”You have a touching faith in the folks who don’t even read the treaties. I take it you’ve never worked closely with such people? Again, what do you think the EU Commission meant when supporting the statement that EU spending is:“broadly consistent with the public choice theory that sees regulation as a mechanism to create rents for politicians and the firms they support"?Presumably, this statement applies to the politicians you believe we should trust to make “better decisions on our behalf”.By the way, the Lisbon Treaty will make the European Council a de facto EU institution. This means our “democratically-elected representatives” will be legally obliged to put the EU’s interests first when meeting on EU issues (as distinct from the interests of EU citizens or the individual member states that elected such representatives). I’ll assume you’re unaware of the legal pecking order and the implications of the Lisbon Treaty. If you were, an intelligent person such as you might realise the naivety of the above statement....And EU leaders aren’t “democratically-elected” to the Council, as Commissioners aren’t “democratically-elected” to the Commission.

Fraser Pearce ● 6205d

Nothing will persuade you that the EU is the successor of, and evolved from, the EEC and that the 1975 referendum was in effect irrevocable and not a cut-and-come-again exercise. I and millions of others grasped that but you obviously don't so there can be no meeting of minds on that.It is obvious the Confederacy could not secede from the Union for two reasons - firstly, the Constitution did not provide for secession from the better union; secondly, the Confederacy would not have been viable economically if it had seceded, as the Civil War showed. In any event the fate of the various States was already so intertwined that the secession ran against all the blood etc ties.The UK cannot secede because there is no provision. It is true that the Lisbon Treaty and following national decisions provided for referenda before it was to be accepted, but non-acceptance would only have restored the status quo ante not created secession.If in our international relations each Parliament, each generation can revisit every international relationship into which we enter, then there can be no certainty and perfidious Albion will for once deserve its reputation for perfidy.We took our decision that it was possible to embrace Europe and do so in primacy to our blue seas policy. That's done - move on.EFTA was, and is, little more than a free trade agreement. In that sense it is nothing more than a husk compared to the EU. perhaps that is what you want - the dismantling of all cross-Europe decisions other than free trade (you specifically exclude Euratom, I accept). I noticed you included Tampere for example. It's like trying to turn the British Government back into its pre-1914 existence - uninvolved in most areas of life, "Liberal" in the 19th century sense. I don't want that, and I suspect if the full implications of dismantling of all European structures - or our removal from them - were put to the British people, they would not do so either. Why, you may then ask, do I then oppose a referendum on the issue, if I believe my 'side' would win the argument? For the same reason that I opposed the existence of the 1975 referendum, whilst voting in it, namely that referenda, as the remorseless flow of Propositions in front of US electors shows, cause the issues to get simplified into simplistic and distorted summaries and it is very difficult to conduct any detailed or intelligent debate. In brief, I am a believer in representative democracy, that our democratically-elected representatives in their various councils can make better decisions on our behalf than we can in Yes/No referenda.

Dan Filson ● 6205d

Difficult to reply to 5 consecutive separate posts machine-gunned at me like this- it is like being hit over the head repeatedly with a loofah.Dealing with the last point first, I am very well aware the United States was a federal government. The EU is not. Nonetheless, secession from the EU is no more a realistic option than it was for the Confederacy in 1861, which doesn't mean the Confederacy didn't try. Incidentally, before 1861 the United States of America were referred to in the plural - "the United State are ..." and after the Civil War in the singular - "the United States is ..." proof that even a federal state can become a closer union and that federalism has different forms.On whether the British public would vote for retention of membership in the EU versus an EFTA-type arrangement, I imagine they might vote for the latter, but, if the past 30 years is anything to go by, the debate would be bad-tempered, ill-informed and riddled with xenophobia and poisonous, narrow nationalism. And I doubt if whatever the result the EU-phobes would be satisfied with the result just as they never really accepted the 1975 referendum result and insist that each subsequent treaty, like Maastricht and Lisbon, should be accompanied by a further In-Out referendum.I cannot reply in detail on the rest of your responses, save to acknowledge that you do have a thought-out position. I am not surprised at the 1971 paper, it was just saying what any percipient civil servant could foresee (I am not sure whether the FCO was still blue-waters in 1971 or yet converted to the European cause).Taking one issue, I personally think the ECJ has been a force for good and much traduced. Likewise the European Convention on Human Rights.As to EEC > EU, this is just semantics. The organisation has developed and changed its name along the way. It has moved from being an iron and Steel Community, to an Economic Community and is manifestly now more than that. No big deal as far as I am concerned. I have no more wish to be in an undefiled-sovereignty United Kingdom making decisions in isolation from the rest of Europe but equally unable to influence the decisions made in Europe, than I would be to be a citizen of the Commonwealth of Virginia unable to influence the decisions of the United States of America.

Dan Filson ● 6205d

“What do you recommend constructively, from the vast reserves of your experience?”- Why conduct a reasoned argument when taking the piss will do, eh, Dan?If you really are interested, I have recommended moving the UK into EFTA – which would bring significant cost savings and no loss in trade. I’ve recommended re-affirming and expanding the original aims of EURATOM. This would require more cooperation at European level and much closer intergovernmental cooperation over and above Articles 194 [176a] and 122 [100] of the Lisbon Treaty (that mandate the UK’s surrender of North Sea Oil and French surrender of their nuclear). This would address the greatest challenge facing the countries of Europe.I’d recommend the repeal the St Malo and Farnborough Air Show agreements, stop the ECB and European Council assuming legal character as EU institutions, abandon the supremacy of the ECJ, the European Convention of Human Rights, Tampere I and II, Galileo, Lisbon Article 33 and Lamfalussy’s "4 level regulatory approach".I’d recommend the EU change from a customs union to a free trade area, popular ratification of Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon, plus the explicit labelling of EU legislation as EU legislation when it hits national parliaments (intelligence briefings are on pink paper, for example – EU legislation could be light blue). -------Genuine question for you, Dan: Put to the vote, what do you think the peoples of Europe would go for, the current EU model or the Swiss/EFTA one?

Fraser Pearce ● 6205d

“It could of course be that "European Union" was simply easier to coin."- Close, Dan, but no cigar. During the Paris Summit in 1972, the leaders of the 'EU Nine' discussed an official "Provisional European Government", monetary union and the end of national sovereignty. Later that year, however, Edward Heath told his peers this 'Provisional National Government" term wouldn't fly with the British people ("That would get me into great difficulties.") His peers in Germany and France echoed this view.So, a more neutral alternative phrase was floated, the "European Union". A member of the French president's staff was puzzled by the drab anonymity of this label and inquired what it meant. The reply? "Nothing… but then that is the beauty of it".The term “European Union” was deliberately chosen for its opaqueness.When you voted ‘no’ in the 1975 referendum, did you know plans were already being discussed for a European government, monetary union and EU sovereignty? -------By the way, Dan, you’re free to take a trip to the Public Records Office in Kew and ask for a copy of a document called ‘PRO/FCO/30/1048’. This paper was prepared for the Foreign Office in 1971 and analysed “the implications for British sovereignty of entry to the European Communities”. The main conclusion of this analysis was that, in coming years, it would become obvious that Britain’s ability for self-government would be severely curtailed. The paper also concluded that increasingly remote and bureaucratic governments would lead the British people to feel more alienated over time. The underlying cause of this was envisaged to be increasing numbers of decisions being made in Brussels and more power being exercised by unelected officials.It was also envisaged that these problems and concerns over sovereignty would only become obvious over time, possibly not until “the end of the century”.Of course, in 1971, the British government was publicly saying the opposite to people like you in a white paper called ‘The United Kingdom and the European Communities’. We were assured there would be “no essential loss of sovereignty”, no loss of national identity, that the courts, the legal system and parliament would “continue as before”.Which analysis do you think was most accurate, the Foreign Office one kept secret for 30 years or the one flogged publicly to people like you?

Fraser Pearce ● 6205d

Mr Hughes –Rather than be fixated with the number 17, I’m trying to point out to you that ‘Europe’ and the ‘EU’ are not one and the same – unless you’re seriously suggesting Europe is only 17 years old and a country like Switzerland isn’t European.Thanks for the suggestion of reading the papers. I’ll pass though, if you don’t mind. I hope you’ll forgive me for instead relying on the experience of working for the governments in Westminster and Brussels, weekly briefings with the Secretary of State for X and the odd face-to-face with the EU Commissioner for Y. As for “the new global economy and how we are so interlinked with trade and the importance of the economic zones”, little things like global free trade agreements and the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) already have that stuff covered (Switzerland’s an EFTA member, for example, and has a larger proportion of its trade with the EU than the UK does).So, if it’s trade with our European partners that you want, EFTA will suffice. Failing that, world trade agreements mean countries like Mexico now have EU trade concessions similar to those granted the UK when we originally joined the Common Market. So, no need for the EU to help UK trade – cheaper, less intrusive mechanisms are already in place......According to the EU’s own figures, for example, the Single Market benefits the economies of the EU to the tune of an extra €164.5 billion a year. Unfortunately, the EU also estimates the cost of this as being around €600 billion a year - about 12% of EU GDP.So, the 27 EU countries spend €600 billion on extra regulation in order to claw back a shade under €165 billion in extra trade.These numbers don’t add up. Why? Because current EU spending is “broadly consistent with the public choice theory that sees regulation as a mechanism to create rents for politicians and the firms they support."If you need a translation of EU-speak, that means EU taxpayers fork out €435 billion over the odds each year to help keep the political piggies in the trough – an extra £850 every year for every man, woman and child in the EU. By moving into EFTA then, countries like the UK, Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Denmark could save a significant proportion of annual GDP, while still maintaining global and EU trade status.-------P.S. I’m half-Irish too and married to a brown-skinned Arab. We chose German nationality for our children. As someone who feels more ‘European’ than British, the EU’s corrupt undermining of little things like parliamentary sovereignty, common law and democratic accountability are deeply disturbing. The system’s rotten, deeply corrupt and beyond reform.P.P.S. It’s only called the ‘European Union’, by the way, because the leaders of the UK, France and Germany were nervous their citizens wouldn’t like original suggestion – the “Provisional European Government” – as it might give the game away.And that was back in 1973.

Fraser Pearce ● 6206d

Yes I now know what words are missing,It seems you have a fixation with 17 Sir, and as for inverting I suggest you read the papers not that you a get full story from them, my understanding comes from the new global economy and how we are so interlinked with trade and the importance of the economic zones, it will not be long before the global trade forum will be here where the trading foors of the world will be trading 24/7, we are already half way there now, I think this credit crunch has been a big shock for everyone to see just how far we are interlinked, The USA nor the UK could of dealed with the backlash on its own, It has taken a global economy to try and pull this plane out of the nose dive but hopefully we can pull take the plane out of the nose dive as it is really hurting real people, I know what I am saying is an over simplication and is dumb down but it would take a whole book to explain my ideas, which I am in no doubt the jokers on the forum would be "all spare us from that" and how can dyslexic write a book ho ho and so on..thats their problem not mine.I am happy to be European I have many friends all over Europe and we share many jokes, Its a bit like Jamaica where they call the other islands, "little islanders" in some way Europe see us as little islanders just be carefull when you walk past you might wake them. I think the English have an anxiety problems about identity which bring out the worst in reperesive fears. Being half Irish you think I should have the problems of identity, I think the Uk needs to wise up and smell the roses, there is a big wide world out there and you can retain your identity but still be engaged with the world.

Dave Hughes ● 6207d

It seems you have a fixation with 17 Sir, and is inverting I suggest you read the papers not that you a get full story from them, my understanding comes from the new global economy and how we are so interlinked with trade and the importance of the economic zones, it will not before the global trade forum will be here where the trading foors of the world will be trading 24/7, we are already half way there now, I think this credit crunch as been a big shock to all to see just how far we are interlinked, The USA nor the UK could of dealed with the backlash on its own and its has taken a global economy to try and pull this plane out of the nose dive, I know what I am saying is an over simplication and is dumb down but it would take a whole book to explain my ideas, which I am in no doubt the jokers on the forum would be "all spare us from that" and how can dyslexic write a book ho ho and so on..thats their problem not mine.I am happy to be European I have many friends all over Europe and we share many jokes, Its a bit like Jamaica where they call the others little islanders in some way Europe see us as little islanders just be carefull when you walk past you might wake them. I think the English have an anxiety problems about identity which bring out the worst in reperesive fears. Being half Irish you think I should have the problems of identity, I think the Uk needs to wise up and smell the roses, there is a big wide world out there and you can retain your identity but still be engaged with the world.

Dave Hughes ● 6207d