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"FACT: The electorate in the North West constituency was 5.2 million. Of these nearly 3.6 million stayed at home."I see. So Labour is responsible for a low turnout. Tell me, Phil, if it rains tomorrow will that be Labour's fault too?"You should hang your head in shame."Oh, my god!"Nothwithstanding the fact that the community rightly regarded her (Tina Howe's) politics as irrelevant, the Labour Party itself opposed the transition to a united association as a point of principle, the same reason for which the rest of us supported it."For "the community" we should presumably read Phil Andrews, should we?. If Tina Howe's politics are irrelevant, then why did you, Tom Reader, Simon Anderson and others feel it necessary to set up IvyTag to rival NITA when Tina was chairing the latter? As for "the rest of us supported it", this presumably excludes Simon Anderson, Al-Ayoby and others who feel they've been left out of it and been dumped by you after you had used them for your own purposes."I find your analysis of Hounslow's "demographics" interesting. The implication is that Asian voters must and will at all times support the Labour Party irrespective of how poorly the party achieves or how great the scandal it becomes embroiled in. Are Asian voters in Hounslow aware of the contempt in which they are held by the Labour Party and how their votes are taken for granted?"- Classic Phil Andrews, that one. Now let's take a look at what I actually said: "There are seven Asian-dominated wards in the borough. That means 21 seats the Tories have little or no hope of winning." No mention of Labour - but then you've never been one to let the facts get in the way of how you want to interpret something, have you Phil? The fact that John Connolly represents one of the said wards on behalf of the HIA is lost on you, isn't it? You see, I did not imply that these wards were bound to return Labour councillors. I DID imply that the Tories were unlikely to break through in any of them because Asian people tend, for historical reasons, not to vote Tory. By the way, the fact that the Tories gave you a top executive post is symptomatic of their continuing problems with the Asian electorate.

Robin Taylor ● 6191d

"Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that a minor detail in a Labour leaflet made that amount of difference?"FACT: The electorate in the North West constituency was 5.2 million.  Of these nearly 3.6 million stayed at home.  Five thousand of these votes cast for the Green, or less for UKIP, would have kept Griffin out.In Yorkshire & the Humber the electorate was 3.8 million.  Nearly 2.6 million of these people didn't vote.  Like Griffin, Andrew Brons won his seat by a few thousand votes.The "minor detail" to which you refer was a leaflet sent out to these voters telling them that if they wished to stop the BNP they had to vote Labour.  The message to those who didn't intend to vote Labour was that they might as well stay at home.Now Robin, you have set yourself up as this forum's racism policeman, assuming for yourself the right to pass judgement upon others without so much as a second thought.  Yet here you are, casually dismissing as being of no consequence a lie told by the party you represent which in all likelihood resulted in the election of two BNP candidates to the European ParliamentThis epitomises perfectly everything that I find objectionable about your stance.  Your opposition to the far-right and everything it stands for is beyond question, but your priority is clearly the advancement of your chosen political party and when the two conflict, the latter wins every time.  You are attempting to justify the unjustifiable, and still you consider it appropriate to adopt the moral high ground.  You should hang your head in shame.Whatever the effect on the outcome, why was it necessary for the Labour Party to lie about something so serious?"But Phil, Isleworth does not elect ICG councillors in protest at the removal of Alan Minehan from the NITA committee in 1987. It votes ICG because you have built up a formidable election winning machine (due, at least in part, to your tactic of infiltrating or setting up residents' groups for your own strategic ends)."Oh well, I tried.  Same old, same old it would seem.  If this attitude remains typical of that of your party members I fear that opposition beckons for some considerable time to come.  It is a shame, because the party which has sunk to this is one steeped in honourable tradition."This is the association that Tiny Howe (a Labour Party member) was chair of ..? I see."Yes - and your point is?  Tina (not Tiny) was a Labour Party member and a resident of Ivybridge, and to her credit put the latter first.  Notwithstanding the fact that the community rightly regarded her politics as irrelevant, the Labour Party itself opposed the transition to a united association as a point of principle, the same reason for which the rest of us supported it.What precisely are you disputing?  That Tina is a Labour Party member, or that the Labour Party tried to frustrate the creation of a united association?  Both are a matter of record."Phil, that's simply hilarious. Tell me, exactly which wards do the Tories need to win to get to 31 seats? Haven't you heard of demographic change? Did you know that in the 70s and 80s Heston East used to vote Tory through thick and thin AND YET IS NOW SO WEDDED TO VOTING LABOUR THAT IT EVEN DID SO IN LAST YEAR'S GLA ELECTION DEBACLE?"There are seven Asian-dominated wards in the borough. That means 21 seats the Tories have little or no hope of winning. Add six ICG seats to this total and you've got 27. This means that the Tories have got to make a breakthrough in Brentford (by winning at least one seat in that Lab/Lib Dem marginal) AND they have to run the table in all five wards in the Feltham area. (They also have to hold on to all three seats in a demographically-changing Hounslow South)."Sorry, Phil, but your theory doesn't add up."It isn't my theory.  I made it perfectly clear in my previous posting that I was not sure whether the claim had any truth about it or not.  That remains my position, but we in the ICG are prepared for all eventualities as indeed we always have been.I find your analysis of Hounslow's "demographics" interesting.  The implication is that Asian voters must and will at all times support the Labour Party irrespective of how poorly the party achieves or how great the scandal it becomes enbroiled in.Are Asian voters in Hounslow aware of the contempt in which they are held by the Labour Party and how their votes are taken for granted?  If not, maybe they ought to be?

Phil Andrews ● 6191d

"Out of interest, where did I refer to Gerry Gable's burglary conviction?""I know you meticulously reference and cross-reference quotations from me and others".Phil, let me deal with your second point first. I do not have time to meticulously reference anything. All I did before I started posting on this site is tap a few words into the search engine: "Searchlight" brings up your criticisms of Gerry Gable, whereas the word "Asian" brings up various unpleasant outpourings from your political ally (and financial donor) Jim Lawes.You have attacked Gerry Gable on a number of threads, but your reference to his conviction for burglary was on the "Now smile children.I need to appear in the local paper every week" thread. Here is an extract from your posting of 10/07/06:-******When Gable speaks of my "criminality" he does so as an authority on the subject. In 1964 he was convicted of burglary after breaking into the home of the right-wing historian (sic) David Irving whilst posing as a workman. One of his accomplices on this mission was Searchlight researcher Manny Carpel. Many years later, in 1981, Carpel was gaoled after being convicted of torching the business premises of a far right publisher in Sussex. One of the founders of Searchlight magazine was one Harry Bidney. In 1977 Bidney was convicted on eight charges of living off the immoral earning of prostitutes. His friend David Calderhead - a "businessman" who has provided finance to Searchlight - was gaoled for attempting to procure a 16-yea-old boy to commit an act of gross indecency with Bidney. These are the people to whom the Labour Party and its media friends turn for assistance whenever they feel the time has come around again to "expose" (for the umpteenth time) my own transgressions from the dim and distant past.******Dim and distant past? My god, Phil, irony really is lost on you isn't it?!

Robin Taylor ● 6191d

"Five thousand more votes for the Greens in the North West - less for UKIP - would have kept Griffin out."Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that a minor detail in a Labour leaflet made that amount of difference? It reminds me of a conversation I had with the Labour organiser of a tightly-fought London borough a few days before the 2006 council election. He was a good guy (and a shrewd tactician) but a few days before polling day he actually started telling me that he was worried that the Tories would win the council's most pivotal ward by employing a tactic of mass personation. I tried telling him that he had become too emotionally exhausted to see things as they truly were. I suggest that you may have the same problem."... how about doing something to persuade me, and far more importantly the rest of the community which consistently elects and re-elects ICG councillors, that the mindset (of Labour) has changed since those days."But Phil, Isleworth does not elect ICG councillors in protest at the removal of Alan Minehan from the NITA committee in 1987. It votes ICG because you have built up a formidable election winning machine (due, at least in part, to your tactic of infiltrating or setting up residents' groups for your own strategic ends)."The fierce opposition I encountered from Labour when trying to introduce a united association on that estate (the Ivybridge) less than three years ago ..."This is the association that Tiny Howe (a Labour Party member) was chair of ..? I see."There are rumours doing the rounds that Labour in Hounslow intends to roll over without a fight in the hope of assisting the election of a Conservative majority administration in preference to a coalition which might include the ICG."Phil, that's simply hilarious. Tell me, exactly which wards do the Tories need to win to get to 31 seats? Haven't you heard of demographic change? Did you know that in the 70s and 80s Heston East used to vote Tory through thick and thin AND YET IS NOW SO WEDDED TO VOTING LABOUR THAT IT EVEN DID SO IN LAST YEAR'S GLA ELECTION DEBACLE?There are seven Asian-dominated wards in the borough. That means 21 seats the Tories have little or no hope of winning. Add six ICG seats to this total and you've got 27. This means that the Tories have got to make a breakthrough in Brentford (by winning at least one seat in that Lab/Lib Dem marginal) AND they have to run the table in all five wards in the Feltham area. (They also have to hold on to all three seats in a demographically-changing Hounslow South).Sorry, Phil, but your theory doesn't add up.

Robin Taylor ● 6191d

I had planned not to indulge you any more Robin but these latest observations of yours actually border on the sensible so they do deserve some encouragement.  I would respond to the three main premises of your posting as follows:"Are you seriously suggesting that that tactic brought about the two BNP victories? If yes, then I'll have to withdraw the previous comment I made about you having a clever strategic mind: the tactic would have made only the tiniest difference either way (and any slight difference would probably have been in Labour's favour)."Let's remember that the "tactic" we are discussing here was lying to your own potential voters that the only way to prevent BNP candidates from being elected was to vote Labour.The "tactic" only needed to make a slight difference.  Five thousand more votes for the Greens in the North West - less for UKIP - would have kept Griffin out.  The situation in Yorkshire & Humber was not dissimilar.In a climate in which voters were disinclined to vote Labour the predictable outcome of such a "tactic" would have to have been to persuade many voters who might otherwise have voted Green, or for UKIP that matter, to stay at home instead.  Whilst neither you nor I will ever know the precise number who did so in those two regions, on the balance of probabilities I would consider it more likely than not that the "tactic" was directly responsible for the election of at least one and probably both BNP candidates to the European Parliament."I believe that your obsessive criticism of the Labour Party over this issue is a left-over of the bitterness you still feel towards the party over events on the Ivybridge in 1987...I wish you could take a step back and try to re-evaluate this issue."Not in this case it isn't, though the essence of the point you make is reasonable comment - but how about doing something to persuade me, and far more importantly the rest of the community which consistently elects and re-elects ICG councillors, that the mindset has changed since those days?  The fierce opposition I encountered from Labour when trying to introduce a united association on that estate less than three years ago would suggest to me that it hasn't changed (and this time there was no "NF man" to provide the justification and thus the sheer unreasonableness of the whole approach was there for everybody to see).  This goes a long way beyond Ivybridge.  Why did the Labour Group oppose the release of £4m funds for tenant-led initiatives throughout the borough, for example?  Why did the same Group speak against, then abstain from supporting, my announcement at Borough Council last year of a proposal to make resident engagement more central to the philosophy of the council?"The Labour Party is not in its 'death throes' - it is having a bad time. Eventually it will re-emerge, re-group and win again. It always has done in the past. People said Labour was finished in the 1950s and 1980s. They were wrong."Whether you choose to believe it or not, I actually hope you are right.  Our politics needs a Labour Party of sorts and would be the poorer for its absence.  But do you honestly believe that your present "bad time" is solely down to cyclical political ebb and flow and that all you have to do is remain as you are and there will be soon be a clamour for the return of Labour in its current form?When the Conservatives were hammered at the 2007 General Election it was generally recognised that they needed to go away and think about why they had lost so much support, with a view to re-emerging at some later time in a different and hopefully better form.  Whether they have succeeded in doing that or not is of course a moot point - I personally believe that the current resurgence in the Conservative Party's political fortunes is almost wholly a manifestation of anti-Labour sentiment and that there is no overwhelming enthusiasm for the party to compare with that enjoyed by New Labour in 1997 - but the realisation was at least there.My personal dislike of Labour in its current incarnation may be an untypical and extreme example born of personal experience, but I am certainly not the only person who feels that the organisation has become arrogant, remote, self-righteous, detached and - worst of all - completely unscrupulous and devoid of even a rudimentary sense of right and wrong.I walk around the Civic Centre and I speak to individual Labour Group members (at election times or in the glare of publicity I am still officially a fascist, but in private the pretence is not persisted with) and they are to a man and woman decent, reasonable, rational, dedicated, genuine human beings.  Then a day or two later I will read something in a newspaper or on a leaflet distributed by the exact same people making some completely outrageous or fictitious claim, sometimes about myself.  I am aware that you consider this "politics".  To me it just illustrates the problem.I believe the Conservatives will win the next General Election, as I suspect you do also.  I also believe that Labour will fail to regain Hounslow in 2010, indeed I am aware that your party does too as - incredibly - it is not included in its list of target boroughs.  There are rumours doing the rounds that Labour in Hounslow intends to roll over without a fight in the hope of assisting the election of a Conservative majority administration in preference to a coalition which might include the ICG.  I cannot say one way or the other whether there is any truth in them - if there is it provides an interesting insight into the party's political priorities.But assuming Labour aspires to regain administration of the borough one day, just as it will hope to form a government again in the not-too-distant future, I sincerely hope that it uses its time in opposition to reflect deeply upon where it might have gone wrong.  Locally at least, the current approach of preference would appear to be simply to blame the electorate and to reassure itself with the knowledge that the voters are not worthy.

Phil Andrews ● 6191d

"I assume that he, like Robin, is unembarrassed by the fact that the conduct of the party he supports was largely responsible for the election of two fascists to the European Parliament, and sees no reason to lose any sleep about, let alone apologise for, the very significant role his party played in bringing that situation to pass?"Phil, the Labour Party was visibly split when the Euro election took place: that's why we lost votes to the BNP and others. It infuriates me but I don't see why I should apologise for something which was beyond my personal control. But if, as I suspect, you are in fact blaming our campaign tactic of trying to engender a large Labour turnout as a means of stopping the BNP (something you have complained bitterly about in previous postings) then no, I will not be apologising - because it was a perfectly legitimate tactic (and one which was deployed by the Greens in some areas, too). Are you seriously suggesting that that tactic brought about the two BNP victories? If yes, then I'll have to withdraw the previous comment I made about you having a clever strategic mind: the tactic would have made only the tiniest difference either way (and any slight difference would probably have been in Labour's favour).I believe that your obsessive criticism of the Labour Party over this issue is a left-over of the bitterness you still feel towards the party over events on the Ivybridge in 1987.I wish you could take a step back and try to re-evaluate this issue."When one witnesses how low the party has fallen, both morally as well as in terms of public support, isn't it gratifying to be alive to behold it in its death throes no matter which local candidate stands to triumph from its inevitable, and heartily deserved final demise?"Phil, I see that you're moralising again. Strange that Adam does not pick you up on that.The Labour Party is not in its "death throes" - it is having a bad time. Eventually it will re-emerge, re-group and win again. It always has done in the past. People said Labour was finished in the 1950s and 1980s. They were wrong.

Robin Taylor ● 6191d

Dan, you asked for a simple answer, and I gave you it, I'll now give you a more detailed answer, as I knew you'd take the bait...Your 'simple question' was completely scewed.  It reminds me of the question an active group in Richmond posed recently to residents - "is it ok for public land to be sold to private developers for them to build on ?".  Of course the answer came back as a resounding no.I've never voted for Phil, the ICG or any other political party recently, so I have no 'preferential' interest.  But taking things at face value, which any constitutent will usually do, Phil has never hid his past, he's never been afraid to enter into debate about it etc, when many would have kept quiet or avoided any 'awkward' questions.And Phil and the ICG will surely be assessed by local residents based upon local issues, how Phil and other Councillors interact with the public etc ?.  Clearly a large proportion of those residents, who I'm sure are fully aware of Phil's past, accept him for the person he now purports to be, and give him their support.  Really, people like Robin and yourself who repeatedly focus on Phil's past show a complete disrespect for the residents of the Borough, as you clearly think anyone who votes for Phil/the ICG is a totally deluded fool who lives in a goldfish bowl and has no idea of his past.In simple words 'get over it'.  Surely there are weaknesses in the actual environment of the Borough etc people of a different political view should be focusing their campaigns to attract local residents for their vote ?.

Adam Beamish ● 6192d

PhilI deplore the election of fascists anywhere and if I lived anywhere near Barnsley I would rail against their election there. But you are here on our doorstep, so you will do. The point is that in a free country there is little to stop a fascist or ex-fascist form standing for election, and if the voters in their wisdowm or folly elect them, there is nothing then to stop them from taking office. If someone has repented of their 15-year fascist past, there is however self-restraint and a sense of common decency. I would have thought that in all decency you should not have sought nomination and should not have stood for election.It is the same side of the coin as the MP expenses issue. The fact that their behaviour was within the rules does not excuse the claims they made thst were morally wrong. the fact that no law prevented you from serking election and being elected does not excuse your morally wrong action, in my view, in standing for public office with such a past.Did you spell out to your electors, all your electors, before polling day exactly how many heads you broke, how many punches you threw, whether you used knuckle dusters, knives or chains, whether you did dirty tricks llike dog excrement etc.? Were you ever caught and convicted of any offences which should be in the public arena? A lifetime of repentative seclusion might have been more appropriate.Incidentally, I believe you act as moderator to your own blog site. Does this mean that you would refuse a posting that set out your 15-year Nazi past there?

Dan Filson ● 6192d

There are over fifty current members of the BNP who hold public office at either a similar or a more influential level.The fact that it is only a former member, a former member who has renounced his earlier activities and whose work includes a powerful element of making up for past wrongs, whose right to serve (and by association the right of his electors to have the councillor of their choice) Dan would challenge says it all.I assume that he, like Robin, is unembarrassed by the fact that the conduct of the party he supports was largely responsible for the election of two fascists to the European Parliament, and sees no reason to lose any sleep about, let alone apologise for, the very significant role his party played in bringing that situation to pass?Certainly there is no evidence of any sense of shame or guilt following said events which might have dented, even for a week or two, his automatic assumption of a moral superiority which he clearly believes qualifies him to pontificate from another borough to lesser beings on this forum about whom they can and cannot elect to their own local authority.Instead of tackling the very awkward issue of the BNP's election to Brussels on a reduced vote, courtesy of the Labour Party, he instead concentrates his fire on a local opponent with an agenda at which tackling racism is at the very heart.  How perfectly Dan's remarks sum up the priorities of a party which is less concerned about the impact of fascism today than it is about mouthing platitudes about racism in the hope of scoring a cheap political point.When one witnesses how low this party has fallen, both morally as well as in terms of public support, isn't it gratifying to be alive to behold it in its death throes no matter which local candidate stands to triumph from its inevitable, and heartily deserved final demise?

Phil Andrews ● 6192d

RobinYou rest your case?  I have long gained the impression that you think you are in a court of law when conducting your pious (and tortured) cross-examinations, and this self-satisfied comment rather proves it.I am glad you did quote Jeff Marshall and his remarks about the death of Ivan Cameron because I can't think of a better example of the sick, twisted, evil minds that we are dealing with here (doubtless you will now accuse me of ambiguity).  The fact that this reptile is still in the party rightly damns the whole organisation by association.I was already aware of that quote, courtesy of an anti-fascist blog to which I frequently contribute, and I can truly say I was sick to the pit of my stomach when I first read it.  The are no words in the English language to describe how I feel about this individual, and about the party which allows him to remain a member after having said it.But, unless you are suggesting that I somehow share his views (and if so I would be inrigued to learn by what convoluted train of logic even you would have arrived at such as conclusion), I don't really see the relevance of this particular quote.The discussion was about political violence, and you were trying hard to make a case that I am a closet supporter of the BNP because I had stated in a previous posting that the party did not openly advocate violence.  This was not in any way intended as a defence of the BNP as well you know, but simply a statement of the fact that as an organisation the BNP conceals its true nature - a claim which I believe even Searchlight would back me up on.I really don't understand why people like you - and I have met others of the ilk - seem to feel an ongoing compulsion to put your credibility on the line by going one step further when the truth about such an evil and racist organisation as the BNP is sufficially unpleasant to condemn it.Could its source be the same self-righteous arrogance that prevents your party from apologising for its part in sending two fascists to Brussels despite their actual vote having decreased since 2004, having attempted to use the BNP threat to try to blackmail electors into voting Labour last week and probably having lost support as a consequence?

Phil Andrews ● 6194d

"The Hounslow Labour Party is really lucky to enjoy the services of such a talent as you."But as your friend and colleague Jim Lawes says, Hounslow Labour Party has disowned me (something which you have conspicuously failed to do to Jim Lawes)."You're quite right, anybody who reads my earlier postings to which you refer will be able to see for themselves that I am an unashamed advocate of fascist violence."But I'm not saying that. However, since you've already got to the stage of having to use sarcasm as a substitute for reasoned debate (which, in your case, is always an indication that you have run out of arguments) I will take the opportunity of (hopefully) ending this thread by quoting from an article in April's Searchlight magazine.I hesitate to do this, because I am aware of the fact that you are an opponent of Searchlight and a stern critic of Gerry Gable. But I hope that this article (and the quote contained in it) will convince you that the BNP does indeed advocate violence (especially given the fact that your own definition of 'advocate' includes "support or urge by argument"):-******In a cruel and warped outburst against those who had expressed their condolences at the death of Ivan Cameron, Jeff Marshall, the Central London BNP Organiser, wrote: "We live in a country today which is dominated by an excess of sentimentality towards the weak and unproductive. No good will come of it." Not content with attacking those mounring the death of a severely disabled child who brought "joy and love to those around him", Marshall continued in his sick tirade, stating that although it would be "a kindness" to kill children with disabilities, this was not the same as advocating such a measure as compulsory state policy. "But so what if it is," he asked. "At least we would all know where we stand. There is actually not a great deal of point in keeping these sorts of people alive, after all."******I rest my case.

Robin Taylor ● 6194d

Phil.I was actually quite taken aback to read your rant.The reason I say that is because I thought I had been remarkably diplomatic in putting your little bit of mischief-making into context.I could, instead, have done the sort of thing that you used to do to Vanessa Smith. (For example, when she accused you of being a "rabble-rouser", you went around telling residents that she had called them "rabble" - a deliberate twisting and distortion of the truth).Let's deal with the reasoning you make for your decision to state, on a public platform, that the BNP and the NF do not advocate violence:-"However, I would suggest that nowhere in any official publication issued by either organisation will you read "we believe in using physical violence against those we disagree with" or "we are in favour of gratitutous (sic) verbal and/or physical abuse of people from ethnic minorities". For reasons which should be obvious even to you. THAT is what I meant by saying that they don't advocate violence."But Phil, if it's obvious even to me, then WHY STATE IT IN YOUR ORIGINAL POSTING?Let me tell you something, Phil. I have never, in my entire life, been to an anti fascist meeting where one of the speakers got up and pronounced that the BNP do not advocate violence. If such a thing had happened, they would have been (rightly) shouted down.I have noticed on a number of occasions that when you write about the far right you do so in seemingly critical terms but then for some reason feel the need to throw in a remark that appears to have a "nod and a wink" about it.You did something similar in another thread three weeks ago when you told Dan Filson that "I distance myself from all significant aspects of NF/BNP ideology ..." and then went on to say "I think you would find Nick Griffin interesting to speak to. He is a very clever, witty and articulate man."In fact, you made an almost identical remark on one of your recent naval-gazing blogspots. Why do it, Phil? What point are you attempting to make?You accuse me of trying to "whip up racism". When you consider all of the years that you spent in the NF and that I spent in the Anti Nazi League, that remark is frankly laughable.Some years ago you made the same accusation against the local Conservatives - and their response was to accuse you of propogating a "twisted logic". (One of their councillors then went on to claim that you had distributed a newsletter in his ward, the content of which he described as "malicious, mischievous and total rubbish").There is a difference, Phil, between questioning a person's commitment to the anti racist cause and "whipping up racism" (and by the way, the fact that you choose to apply that terminology to me rather than to your good friend and ally Jim Lawes speak volumes about your true level of sincerity).Incidentally, the reason for the above mentioned spat between you and the Tories was the decision of the ICG to field a candidate in the Isleworth North by-election some years ago. The local Conservatives saw this as an opportunity to raise the issue of your political past in the local press.This prompted a letter of defence from your wife, who stated "Yes, he was naive as a youth with idealistic views, but as he matured he saw how preposterous the policies of the NF were."- The reference to you being "idealistic" further reinforces the point I was making earlier (and suggests to me that you might have had a hand in writing that letter yourself).

Robin Taylor ● 6194d

RobinThis was probably your silliest, and most desperate posting to date - and it was up against some stiff competition.The term "advocate" in this context clearly means to openly endorse violence as a political method.  In the dictionary it is described thus:"to speak or write in favour of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly"The BNP is filled to the rafters with people who have engaged in acts of violence.  The murderous bomber David Copeland, as you rightly point out, had been a member of the BNP.Tony Lecomber (often mockingly referred to as LeBomber) was until not very long ago a leading officer of the BNP even after having served a prison sentence for a failed attempt to plant a bomb, which injured him as it went off prematurely, at the offices of the Workers' Revolutionary Party (rumour is that he forgot the device was set on a timer and stopped off at the local KFC for a bite to eat en route), and another for an assault on a Jewish schoolteacher.  Many believe that Lecomber is still close to, and advising Nick Griffin behind the scenes.As a member of the National Front I witnessed literally dozens of incidents of offensive (in the sense of not being defensive) violence, and participated in some of them.The case for describing both the BNP and NF as violent organisations is unanswerable.However, I would suggest that nowhere in any official publication issued by either organisation will you read "we believe in using physical violence against those we disagree with", or "we are in favour of gratitutous verbal and/or physical abuse of people from ethnic minorities".  For reasons which should be obvious even to you.THAT is what I meant by saying that they don't advocate violence.  If you had quoted the whole posting then readers would have been able to see for themselves the context in which my words had been used, but of course that would not have served your objective, would it?Doubtless your "anti-fascist colleagues", if they exist, are every bit as objective as you are about these things.Other users of this forum will note that once again the New Labour Party, through Robin Taylor, tries to whip up racism where it doesn't exist in the pursuit of its own selfish political objectives.  Not content with having been largely responsible for the election of two fascists to the European Parliament, it would appear from Robin's posting that Hounslow is next on their target list.

Phil Andrews ● 6195d