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Simon,I'm aware of your involvement in IvyTag.I think you're basically a decent person (and I certainly do not regard you as a racist) but sadly I think there are times when you've allowed people to use and abuse you for their own ends.Thank you Robin, but ive Never let people use me.I feel you might not like Phil or his policies but you have to respect him for his honesty regarding his past as I certainly respect him for that as I respect anyone who is honest.Now as to Ivybridge, I will be Honest with you, Ive had several heated talks with Phil (which he will comfirm) over what happened on Ivybridge with this New R.A and I certainly don’t support it and I feel its just as bad as the old one NITA.I feel my hard work to get a New RA on Ivybridge was for nothing because all those associated with IVYTAG were pushed out or Resgned even those not associated with either IVYTAG or NITA Resigned now they have just a handful left on there. I would also point out the 2 members from IVYTAG that are on there only 1 was ever Chair of IVYTAG but he walked away from IVYTAG along time ago, the other was never Chair and in my opinion stabbed all the IVYTAG members in the back over his Action. I honestly belive Phil should of intervened along time ago to prevent what happen but its in the past now and the new RA has no support from the Residents that’s why I say a RA will never work on Ivybridge no more, I also Belive IVYTAG was the only Good Group working for the Residents, which was non Political on Ivybridge. But ive certainly made my feelings on this Clear to Phil in the past but what happens on Ivybridge is no longer to do with me.I don't think it's right to blame Ann Keen for some of the things that you have criticised her for. An MP with 90,000 constituents is a lot busier than a councillor with 8,000 - therefore it's not really fair to compare Ann's failure to come to your remembrance party with Phil's attendance. So here is 2 Examples. 1. When Thames offered to give Locals some money, I attended the Meetings on Behalf of Ivybridge, I spoke to residents to see what they would like if I got the Cash and a Park was Suggested beside the Bridgelink. I won the Cash and the Park got the go ahead, then I was thrown off NITA and when the Park was finished who had their Photo in the paper and took credit for the Park..Ann.2. Ann got a MBE for a lady who lived on the Estate stating she has done Loads of work as Chair of the RA, sorry its called Team work others did far more than this woman the only reason she got a MBE was service to Ann running the Labour Controlled NITA.By the way, I do not think Phil's involvement in his church is relavent and am glad that he has chosen to keep his religious views separate from the political arena.Sorry I do because you critize him for the Bad but you say nothing off the good he does,.Steve, as neither you nor I are residents of the Ivybridge, why don't we take a look at the wider issues in the forthcoming general election? I envy the fact that you have a vote in a marginal constituency. Where I live, Labour has always been a shoe-in so my vote will have no effect on the future governance of this country.I am aware of the fact that you support Mary Macleod (and that she's even given patronage to your "Friends of Ivybridge" organisation). But have you ever thought what changes her party will bring about? I am on a low income - I get the impression from some of the things you have said that you might be too.To be honest with you, I don’t know who I support no more after the expenses stories, in the last Elections I voted Lib Dem and a huge part of me feels like voting Lib Dems next time around as I feel great respect for Vince Cable as he is the most honest man in Politics and to be honest the Lib Dems when they Talk they make sence. I am no more part of Friends of Ivybridge and haven’t been for well over a year. But I can state Friends is Non Political.How is Mary Mcleod going to represent people like us, Steve? I have benefitted from the national minimum wage that Ann Keen and Labour introduced (in the teeth of Tory opposition). Can we trust Mary Macleod with that - or does the existence of her various super-rich donors imply that her priorities lie elsewhere?Would you be happy with the reintroduction of fox hunting; of stag hunting; and the introduction of a programme of badger baiting?No I wouldn’t full stop.Are you not glad that Labour has got rid of most of the hereditary peers (which the Tories wanted to keep)? Do you not agree with the various items of equality legislation enacted by the government? What about the Freedom of Information Act?Do you agree with Labour signing up to the European Social Chapter - which has improved rights for workers in this country (including around issues to do with health and safety at work)? Let's not forget here that most of the Tories are rabidly anti-Europe and will assuredly take away the pro-worker benefits that have come through the EU. Did you agree with Labour's introduction of the Winter Fuel Allowance, of a lower basic rate of income tax, of far greater funding for the NHS (so that waiting lists have been slashed and patients sleeping on trollies is much less commonplace?)How do you feel about the fact that Ann Keen was a District Nurse before entering parliament - whereas Mary Macleod's chosen career is that of banking?You can add to the above list the fact that when the Tories last won a general election they did so with the help of a £50,000 donation from Thames Water - a hot topic with Mogden so close by.Mary Macleod and the Tories will be no good for people on Ivybridge, no good for you and no good for me, Steve. If they win you'll get sick of them very quickly - I promise. But then you'll probably have another eighteen years to wait before Labour regroups and has the strength to throw them out.

Simon Anderson ● 6184d

RobinI know your posting was addressed to Simon (Steve to some) but you might be interested to know that I too found myself thinking about much of what you were saying.I support the national minimum wage.  I want to see the end of hereditary peerages, indeed I find the idea of any political power residing with the unelected objectionable.I oppose fox hunting, stag hunting and badger baiting (although as an occasional angler I am vulnerable to accusations of hypocrisy).  I support the European Social Chapter, and welcomed the introduction of the Freedom of Information Act, and the Winter Fuel Allowance.I want to see greater funding for the NHS (without necessarily accepting that another Labour government is the best means of bringing this about).  I want to see a fairer tax system which is not skewed in favour of the rich.  I am generally pro-Europe.I wasn't aware of the £50k donation by Thames Water, but if it's true it might certainly explain a thing or two, especially bearing in mind that this is a company that refuses to invest a brass farthing in the cause of improving the quality of life for its neighbours.And yet I want to see the back of Ann Keen with a vengeance.  You have indulged in a lot of wild and weird speculation elsewhere as to why this might be - various events from the dim and distant past have psychologically damaged me, etc., etc. - but your theories, fascinating though they are, do not explain why thousands of other people clearly feel the same way.If the Labour Party stands for all the things you have outlined and is still as unpopular as it is today than can you not accept that it must be doing something wrong?You warn of eighteen years in the wilderness, why does this have to be?  Why would it take your party so long to regroup?  Eighteen years is a very specific period of time.  Do you say eighteen years because your party categorically refuses to take a good look at itself and accept some responsibility for its current pass?  Are you really content to wait for those yet unborn to acquire the vote before your party can once again present itself as a serious contender for government?  Once again, why?Robin, as I've said to you before you have accumulated a wealth of data about Isleworth but as a resident of Southall you lack a real understanding of how people here really think.  People here think locally.  They look at the local party, they read about Ann Keen's expense claims, about her second home, and are offended by her long-standing avoidance of any discussion of the matter.  Then they look at the way the party performed in office on the local authority, their barely-disguised disdain for the hoi polloi, their indifference to the truth as an instrument of political debate, their wheeler-dealing and sleight of hand approach to engaging with residents and their organisations, and they see Ann Keen as the epitome - sometimes even the instigator - of all this.You have demonstrated great loyalty by doing what more local party members lack the courage to do and coming onto this forum to fight her corner, and I admire you for that.  But it is a hopeless cause, because what she is doing is just so obviously wrong.But it isn't just about Ann Keen.  As you rightly say all ten local ward parties approved her selection.  Trust me, this is not a good selling point for the Labour Party in this constituency.  All you are telling us is that they are as bad as she is, and share her morals.Rather than taking on the world, grumpily trying to imply a sinister right-wing agenda on the part of everybody who isn't a member of the Ann Keen Fan Club, why do you not try to encourage the local party here in Hounslow, with whom you clearly enjoy some kind of relationship, to do something to turn the ship around?  It might be too late, but is it not worth even a try?I hope that if I get a response it will be a constructive one and not some account of something my next-door neighbour was overheard saying in a supermarket in 1968 and how this links me to some antipodean fascist whose English great-aunt's second cousin's milkman once patronised the same shop, but if it is not to be then at the very least I will have made the case to some of your more local colleagues who lurk on this forum in silence while you fire the bullets.

Phil Andrews ● 6184d

Simon,I'm aware of your involvement in IvyTag.I think you're basically a decent person (and I certainly do not regard you as a racist) but sadly I think there are times when you've allowed people to use and abuse you for their own ends.I don't think it's right to blame Ann Keen for some of the things that you have criticised her for. An MP with 90,000 constituents is a lot busier than a councillor with 8,000 - therefore it's not really fair to compare Ann's failure to come to your remembrance party with Phil's attendance. By the way, I do not think Phil's involvement in his church is relavent and am glad that he has chosen to keep his religious views separate from the political arena.Steve, as neither you nor I are residents of the Ivybridge, why don't we take a look at the wider issues in the forthcoming general election? I envy the fact that you have a vote in a marginal constituency. Where I live, Labour has always been a shoe-in so my vote will have no effect on the future governance of this country.I am aware of the fact that you support Mary Macleod (and that she's even given patronage to your "Friends of Ivybridge" organisation). But have you ever thought what changes her party will bring about? I am on a low income - I get the impression from some of the things you have said that you might be too.How is Mary Mcleod going to represent people like us, Steve? I have benefitted from the national minimum wage that Ann Keen and Labour introduced (in the teeth of Tory opposition). Can we trust Mary Macleod with that - or does the existence of her various super-rich donors imply that her priorities lie elsewhere?Would you be happy with the reintroduction of fox hunting; of stag hunting; and the introduction of a programme of badger baiting?Are you not glad that Labour has got rid of most of the hereditary peers (which the Tories wanted to keep)? Do you not agree with the various items of equality legislation enacted by the government? What about the Freedom of Information Act?Do you agree with Labour signing up to the European Social Chapter - which has improved rights for workers in this country (including around issues to do with health and safety at work)? Let's not forget here that most of the Tories are rabidly anti-Europe and will assuredly take away the pro-worker benefits that have come through the EU. Did you agree with Labour's introduction of the Winter Fuel Allowance, of a lower basic rate of income tax, of far greater funding for the NHS (so that waiting lists have been slashed and patients sleeping on trollies is much less commonplace?)How do you feel about the fact that Ann Keen was a District Nurse before entering parliament - whereas Mary Macleod's chosen career is that of banking?You can add to the above list the fact that when the Tories last won a general election they did so with the help of a £50,000 donation from Thames Water - a hot topic with Mogden so close by.Mary Macleod and the Tories will be no good for people on Ivybridge, no good for you and no good for me, Steve. If they win you'll get sick of them very quickly - I promise. But then you'll probably have another eighteen years to wait before Labour regroups and has the strength to throw them out.

Robin Taylor ● 6184d

RobinYou keep banging on ad infinitum about Tom Reader, as though there were some peculiar comparison to be made between an Isleworth resident who had never been a member nor a supporter of any racist organisation at any time during the whole of his pretty long life, and two men who were and remain leading fascist activists on a national and now an international level.The very tenuous connection that you attempt to make is by virtue of the fact that Tom campaigned against the attempted removal from a residents' association in 1987 of a man who was a member of the National Front, but you are only able to sustain this argument by stubbornly ignoring one very important fact - that the people involved were also attempting to remove Tom Reader!This (in my view) deliberate misrepresentation of history is then pursued by reference to Tom's criticisms of the Anti-Nazi League, with the inference that anybody who criticises an organisation which is anti-nazi must ipso facto be pro-nazi.  On other occasions you have employed a similarly mischievous logic to suggest that my concerns about the motives of the anti-fascist magazine Searchlight automatically make me a fascist, when in fact my complaint has always been that the magazine seems from my own personal experience to have a wider agenda to which its anti-fascism plays second fiddle.  This view, incidently, is shared by many on the left of your political spectrum.You are not, of course, being entirely honest.  The ANL may well have been set up with the sole purpose of destroying the National Front - an objective which in retrospect I would thoroughly applaud, although obviously I didn't at the time - but in the early 1990s most of its energies locally were directed at combatting the ICG, which was at that time threatening to make a political breakthrough at Labour's expense.  Thus my criticisms of the ANL, and Tom's, were not of its anti-racist origins but of the way in which its original purpose had been subverted in an attempt to influence a local political argument in Isleworth which had no racial or extremist dimension.If you honestly feel that my continued association after 1991 with Tom Reader, of which I am proud, somehow justifies a public allegation that I held a political meeting with Andrew Brons and Nick Griffin after having professed to have abandoned my commitment to the far right, then I am sure than when the time comes the liar Dan Filson will be happy to call upon you to explain this justification in his defence.The other erroneous assumption that your endless ramblings about events of a quarter of a century ago make is that because my actions at that time were wrong, then the actions of my then opponents must necessarily have been right.  Not so.  I believe I was right to oppose Labour Party control-freakery in the 1980s just as I believe I am right to oppose it today, the difference being that in those days the "solution" I was offering was itself a thousand times nastier than the menace I was attempting to confront.If there is any one similarity between the battles of 1987 and those of today it is this.  In 1987 the Labour Party attempted to use the miniscule presence of the NF on Ivybridge to its own political advantage, in that particular case to facilitate the political takeover of a tenants' association.  Today it publishes election leaflets which try to take advantage of the threat posed by the BNP in order to try to boost its own vote, unconcerned by the danger that, as proved to be the case during the recent Euro elections, it runs the risk by so doing of putting fascists into positions of power.  Now, as then, it sees racism first as an opportunity and only secondly as a threat.As an aside, I might have mentioned once before that during the Ivybridge dispute of 1987 I had the benefit of some sincere advice from a very good man, the late Councillor Dave Archer, himself a Labour Party stalwart (who obviously knew and for whatever reason did not entirely agree with what was going on).  He suggested to both Alan Minehan and myself that we could have instantly thwarted the Labour takeover plan by resigning from the NF there and then and renouncing its views, thus removing in one fell swoop the whole "justification" for the dispute.  For whatever reason (because he didn't know me well) he must have believed I might have considered such a thing.  I bitterly regret that I was too pig-headed and up myself to take that very sound advice at that time.  It took me four more years to realise that he had been right.Robin, I like to engage and I don't think my worst enemy would accuse me of not being prepared to debate issues that others raise, even where is a risk of boring people rigid who are not interested in ancient history.  However unless you have anything new to offer through which to make the ICG=BNP case then I really think we should call this a day.In closing, once again you flatter me by your suggestion that I am "the architect of my own situation".  The truth is however that I couldn't have achieved half of what I have without with the help, support and comradeship of a lot of good and able people.  Long may it remain so.

Phil Andrews ● 6184d

Hi RobinI want to point out i chaired IVYTAG for 2yrs and when i took it over there was only 2 people on it.IVYTAG was set up By 2 Guys called George Burrell and Gareth Evans.You are correct IVYTAG was set up against NITA for Good Reasons.Those that Ran NITA were VERY political and influenced by Ann Keen and the Labour Controlled Hounslow Homes.I was on NITA for a few years and worked harder than anyone and when i started to raise why was the Resident Association Political which it shouldn't, Why was the R.A discriminating some residents from Joining and why wasn't any member allowed to discuss or talk to our Local Elected Councilors (and BTW i was a BIG supporter of Ann Keen then) i was Thrown of the Committee like 3 others before me.I took over IVYTAG and IVYTAG got BIGGER and Better than NITA as Residents had enough of a R.A that was Political and not do anything.I resigned a couple years ago so both IVYTAG and NITA could dissolve and a new RA Formed.When i ran IVYTAG it was Non Political, yes we met with Phil but he is the elected ward Councilor.Ohh a huge majority of my Members were Ethnic and they held a Remembrance party 1 day to light candles to remember those Killed in the London Bombings All were invited the ICG Councilors and Ann Keen.The ICG Councilors turned up but Ann didn't nor did she reply to the Invite.Phil shook alot of hands that day so how he can be Racist is beyond me.Look what he did is in the Past it gets boring to hear it all the time, not to mention you never tell anyone that he is a Deaken at a Church.As to Ivybridge i think you should go over there talk to residents as the Current RA has gone wrong aswell and people dont really support it thats not Phils fault but off the People that sit on it i feel on Ivybridge a Resident Association will NEVER work as residents have given up.

Simon Anderson ● 6185d

In response to Phil's posting of 11:37.I cannot comment on the issue of Griffin and Brons because I have no information about that matter.Dan's central point does seem to have some truth to it, however. I have mentioned previously that Phil continued with some of the associations that he had during his twelve years in the National Front even after leaving that organisation in 1989.He was allied to the late Tom Reader in 1987 (when both of them fought an attempt by the Labour Council to remove NF activist Alan Minehan from the NITA committee) and he continued to be closely allied with Tom right up until the latter's death in 2003. Phil even co-founded, with Tom, IvyTag as a rival tenants association to NITA in 2002. Tom happened to be a ferocious public critic of the Anti Nazi League (which was founded with the single explicit aim of destroying the National Front). His photo continues to adorn Phil's blog.Previously, I was admonished by Phil for bringing up the events of 24 years ago relating to the Swan pub. Yet the events of 22 years ago (relating to the Ivybridge) are still very relevant - even by Phil's own admission - to the events of today. In fact, he himself often alludes to these events. Here is one of many examples:-"The ICG originated on the Ivybridge estate as a reaction to the great injustices being perpetrated against tenants ... it is quite literally no exaggeration to say that Labour's conduct on Ivybridge led directly to its demise in the borough and its replacement by a new coalition administration."- Phil Andrews, Brentford Forum, 29/09/06This is a reference primarily to the events of 1987 relating to Alan Minehan. In fact, in a posting dated 02/03/06 Phil actually castigated the way that the Labour Party had conducted itself in the area "over a period of nearly three decades". That time span includes the early years of his membership of the National Front.It seems clear, therefore, that the grievances he continues to express against the local Labour Party are the same as those he felt throughout his days in the NF.The central problem to this entire controversy is the inability of Phil (not of his opponents) to move on. He is the architect of his own situation.

Robin Taylor ● 6185d

Stuart,The thing which most undermines your campaign against the Keens is what many people regard as the hypocrisy of their Tory opponents. You mention the rating of the Keens in yesterday's Telegraph supplement. One Tory shadow minister who rates thirteen places higher than they do is Chris Grayling.Your Tory parliamentary candidate, Mary Mac£eod, recently hosted a visit to your constituency by Chris Grayling. She was more than happy to be photographed with him at Chiswick Town Hall. Yet even the journalists at the right wing Daily Telegraph (many of them Tory party members themselves) choose to rate the transgressions of Chris "four homes" Grayling as being much worse than those of Ann Keen.Mary Mac£eod promoted a petition at the recent Brentford fair. The petition was related to expenses (and did, as I understand it, call for the abolition of the second home allowance that Chris Grayling has abused). Did Mary ask Chris Grayling to sign the petition? In fact, did she raise the issue with him at all?Before anyone reminds me of the fact that Ann Keen (not Chris Grayling) is the local MP, please bear in mind that what I am highlighting here is what must surely be the universal values of right and wrong. Why is something so deplorable when it happens in the Brentford & Isleworth constituency yet so acceptable when it occurs in Chris Grayling's Epsom constituency (despite the fact that the transgression is arguably so much worse in the case of the latter)?There are no moves to deselect Chris Grayling. In fact, he even remains a member of the shadow cabinet with the full backing of David Cameron - and could well be a government minister within the year.I'm sorry, but I simply do not understand why someone like Ann Keen should be removed when so many others remain unscathed.

Robin Taylor ● 6185d

RobinYour are clearly right about the timing of the dispute between the Keens and the Community Group and my memory has failed me because it is clear from your accurate observations that it predates the immediate aftermath of the 2006 local elections.  However that the Keens were the instigators of the dispute and not us I am not in the slightest doubt, as I distinctly recall the ICG Committee meeting at which we discussed at length how to respond to the situation.  In retrospect I would accept that that discussion must have occurred a little earlier than 2006, indeed it cannot have been later than the beginning of 2005.I did indeed, at the start of my 2005 general election campaign, refer to both John Hunt and Andrew Dakers (why can't you bring yourself to address them by their first names?) as "well meaning but lightweight".  Both subsequently attracted more votes than I did - in Andrew's case many times more - as a result of which my earlier assessment of them was obviously misplaced.  Andrew in fact increased the Liberal Democrat vote very significantly, to the point where the fight for the seat is now in my view a three-horse race.My belief remains that the origin of the term "Mr.& Mrs. Expenses" was the London Eveneing Standard, and none of your comments convinces me that that could not have been the case.  However I made it clear at the start that this was only my belief, about which I accept I could be wrong.  What I am not wrong about is that I was not the originator of this reference.  Had I been I would freely admit it with a sense of some pride.Robin, the main purpose of your last two postings would appear to have been to trumpet your knowledge of a particular historical incident involving the National Front in Isleworth some 24 years ago.  Whilst your knowledge of that incident is slightly inaccurate, you have essentially provided a pretty good historical snapshot.  Presumably your introduction of it into a debate in which it has no relevance is part of your ongoing strategy of seeking out opportunities to "reveal" my hidden political past in the defiant (and arrogant as befits your tribal allegiance) belief that, when the slow-witted minions of Isleworth finally become aware of it as a result of your efforts, they will abandon the ICG and return gratefully into the arms of New Labour - a strategy which others have already applied, always unsuccessfully, each time there has been a local election and will doubtless continue to do so.  In the cause of sustaining an interesting debate I am happy to continue for the time being with the pretence that I remain oblivious to your "cunning" strategy.The Swan incident was one of dozens in which the old National Front of the 1980s found itself at odds with the then Labour council.  Your objective in resurrecting that very historical event would appear to be to imply some kind of torturous connection between it and a disagreement between a completely different organisation and the Keens a quarter of a century later.  It is just one of many such incidents that you could have chosen.  Other than your friend the liar Dan Filson, I suspect the theory is unlikely to find many buyers on this forum.In order for your theory to be correct (bearing in mind you have already acknowledged that you don't believe members of the ICG, other than myself, to have a secret BNP agenda) it would be necessary for the entire ICG membership, not to mention several thousands of voters over three consecutive local elections, to have mindlessly and unthinkingly associated themselves with an irrational vendetta purely of my own, rooted in a very distantly historic incident of which they will have had no knowledge.  Immensively flattering though the suggestion is that I could exercise such hypnotic power over an entire community for so long, the sheer numbers of people involved alone makes this a proposterous suggestion, and when one considers the political and intellectual quality of the people at the head of the ICG today the already absurd gives way very quickly to the unthinkable.  At some point Robin you are going to have to come to terms with the facts behind Labour's rout in Isleworth over the past decade or so, which in turn has led directly to its rout borough-wide.  Although your own theories may provide you with some comfort, until the denial abates you will not learn from your mistakes and you will remain in the wilderness, consumed by your bitterness and blaming everybody else.

Phil Andrews ● 6185d

This thread is slightly bogus as it is trying to keep boiling an issue done to death, surely, already, and is hardly adding much new. "its the female voters who feel so incensed and insulted by the Keens' expenses saga" - judging by the posts on this Forum, by no means so, it seems, as most of the posts seem to be by men, mostly of the politically-motivated varietyIt's a pity that the figures in the opening thread include the staffing costs, as it is not - so far - those amounts (with certain exceptions) that have attracted attention, but the remainder.I'm not writing to defend or attack the expenses of this or any other MP. I just think it must by now be common ground that the system needs wholesale reform so that in future the salary encompasses practically all that an MP should need to claim. The possible exceptions are:- (a) a defined number of journeys - say 40 journeys a year - between a home in or near a constituency outside Greater London and Parliament;(b) the rental cost, not including utilities or other costs and possibly not including council tax, but not any mortgage costs of a second home either in or near the constituency if the main home is in Greater London, or vice versa if the main home is in or near the constituency, provided that the landlord must not be related to or otherwise connected to the MP (that would exclude political parties for example, and business associates);(c) costs of overseas travel, not including own food/drink, when on visits in connection with authorised fact-finding or representational visits to other countries - some set of rules would have to be devised to stop these being "jollies", not that a visit to the West Bank, or Dharfur is much of a jolly;(d) the salary costs of MP staff should be handled by the Fees Office provided the staffer is unconnected personally to the MP, save by Party membership (which doesn't have to be a requirement - in my mother's day as an MP's secretary, it wasn't either a requirement or customary, many secretaries being pretty unpolitical);(e) if all other office costs were borne by the MP personally, that might instill some concept of economy in them, and I would not object to a compensating adjustment to salary. The problem on MP expenses is that the tighter they are controlled, the more advantage it confers on the MP who has deep pockets (not that this constrained wealthy MPs from abusing the existing system)In the context of transferring expenses from a claim-and-refund system to one where for the most part the MP pays them himself/herself, I can see a case for a decent pay rise, 15% or maybe more, as has recently been proposed, but I would think that in all decency it should only be implemented after the General Election and the way the offices of MPs are funded made more public so that the public doesn't harp on about MPs on salaries of say £90k in ignorance. It is a bit strange that a local council leader can have allowances of approaching £40k, and their expenses running into thousands, including 1/3 of £13,000 on a trip to Cannes, for an activity that is supposedly voluntary public service, but get minimal public obloquoy for this, when MPs of all persuasions are now in total disrepute.The background given by Robin Taylor to Councillor Phil Andrews' on-going spat with Ann Keen seems perfectly credible to me, but it doesn't take a dispute over accommodation for National Front meetings to make an NF-er hostile to a Labour MP or candidate - anything will do for them!

Dan Filson ● 6186d

Phil.I will take your word for it that you did not know that it was Ann herself who went to the press and complained about the Front's use of the Swan pub.However, I cannot accept the implication of the fifth paragraph of your posting that your animosity towards her stems from her decision to withdraw cooperation from the local authority in 2006.Your attacks on her in this forum predate that event. In the local press you used the expenses issue against her in the run-up to the 2005 general election - at which you yourself were a local parliamentary candidate. It is an interesting though separate fact that during the campaign you referred to her other opponents as "well meaning but lightweight", which is unfortunate because two of them - Hunt and Dakers - have been re-selected to stand again for their respective parties (and you have already 'half' endorsed the latter).You say that the term "Mr and Mrs Expenses" was first coined by the London Evening Standard. I find that hard to believe. Surely a political opponent coined it for them? These things do not just happen out of thin air. (The fact that you have previously alleged that Ann got the LES's Andrew Gilligan to write unfavourable articles about you would suggest that that newspaper would not of its own accord be malicious enough to invent the "Mrs Expenses" tag).Otherwise, how are we to square the LES's strong support for Ann Keen over the issue of your far right background with its relentless hammering of her over the expenses issue?  Returning to the events at the Swan in 1985, it must surely have been obvious to you that the attempts to kick the Front out of the pub were inspired by the Labour Party (even if you were not aware of the involvement of Ann herself). At the very least, you were fully aware that the then Labour-controlled council had banned the Front from using its buildings.This, along with events two years later on the Ivybridge, has obviously led you to have a deep, long lasting animosity towards the Labour Party - and I suggest that that alone partly explains the vendetta you are running against the sitting Labour MP (as well as your extraordinary outburst against the party's campaign tactics in the recent Euro elections).

Robin Taylor ● 6187d

RobinYou are usually quite good at recording Isleworth history, if not quite so good at understanding it.  However in this instance you are incorrect on all counts.My recollection is that the term Mr. & Mrs. Expenses was first coined by the London Evening Standard.  It certainly wasn't coined by me.With regard to the 1985 incident, I don't recall Ann Keen having been present on that occasion and I probably wouldn't have known who she was if she had been.  I became aware of her existence for the first time when she first stood for parliament some years later.The one occasion on which I have actually spoken to Ann Keen was when she chaired a meeting of the Mogden Residents' Liaison Committee at Thames Water's Mogden plant.  I found her very pleasant and agreeable, and didn't at that point consider her an opponent.  As you know some time later, in 2006, she used me and my presence on the Council Executive as an excuse to withdraw co-operation from the local authority after Labour had lost control of it after 35 years.  She and Alan Keen announced that they were "reserving the right to withdraw co-operation", which in practice meant they would remain available for photo opportunities but would not engage in any real work alongside the new council leadership.Unsurprisingly the new administration was not prepared to accept this one-sided and totally unprincipled arrangement and therefore passed a resolution, with cross-party support (other than Labour), to the effect that the Keens would not be accorded any free publicity by the local authority until they clarified their position.Now that I am no longer a member of the Executive the Keens' excuse for not working with the local authority no longer applies and yet their boycott has continued, giving the lie to the original justification employed.Like yourself, Ann Keen chose the Community Group for an enemy.  It is therefore inappropriate for them and their apologists to now whine and squeal that they are being persecuted by us.The Community Group will not be involved in the forthcoming general election, however the advice we are giving to our members, supporters and voters is that they should vote for the candidate they consider best placed to oust her just so long as that candidate is prepared to work constructively with the local authority for the greater good of the community, irrespective of the council's political composition.  As I understand it both Andrew Dakers of the Liberal Democrats and Mary Macleod of the Conservatives have given that undertaking.

Phil Andrews ● 6187d

Stuart.Given that we agree that Ann's overall expense claim for the last seven years on the face of it "doesn't look too bad" we can only guess at the reason why she is called "Mrs Expenses".The earliest reference to this term that I can find is from a Mr P Andrews of Isleworth. (If Phil wishes to correct me about this, then fair enough). Certainly the efforts made by Cllr Andrews and his ICG to continually hammer away at this issue have had their effect, because the term is now in common currency in both the local and regional press.Phil and Ann first clashed in 1985 when the latter publicly objected to the fact that the National Front were using the Swan public house in Isleworth for its meetings. The Isleworth South Labour Party also held its meetings in the Swan and when Ann (as the party's newly adopted PPC) went to one of their gatherings and found out who they were sharing the pub with, she put her foot down.The Front claimed that they had to use the upstairs of the pub because they had been barred by the Labour-controlled council from using publicly-owned buildings for their meetings. This culminated in Phil Andrews and Nick Griffin holding an open air protest rally.I hasten to add that I am a student (rather than an expert) of Isleworth's political history. If there are any gaping inaccuracies in the above account then I am sure Phil will provide the necessary correction.In a nutshell, then, the animosity between Ann Keen and Phil Andrews goes back a long way.Now that Phil's ICG controls two wards in Ann's constituency (and has considerable influence in various other spheres such as MRAG, URA and the ICSF) he is in a powerful position to help influence public opinion about the local MP.I think, Stuart, you will hopefully agree that the above account goes some way towards answering questions 1 and 3. My other answers are as follows:-2) It's only fair for each MP to be judged separately on their own ACA claim (as each married MP still represents a separate constituency). Clearly, as there are two of them, they are not likely to claim on a property which is as small as that which a single MP would be likely to inhabit.4) I cannot speak for the Keens but the experience of other MPs would seem to suggest that any public meeting would be in danger of being highjacked by political opponents. Therefore it would not fulfill the purpose of gauging the mood of the general public.To conclude, I stand by my view that the Keens should be allowed to try their luck at the ballot box. That's the only way we can really be sure of getting a fair measurement of public opinion about their expenses and about the rest of their record.The general and local elections all have to take place within the next 12 months (and it is quite possible they could be held on the same day). For this reason there is going to be a complete show down and all of these issues will be resolved one way or another. Personally, I think we'll all be glad when it's done and dusted.

Robin Taylor ● 6187d