Forum Topic

Local debates on the Keens and MPs expenses scandal

Just a reminder that these are the dates and venues for the (LibDem-organised) debates:The debates will be held at 7.30pm on Monday, July 6, at Isleworth Town Hall, on Tuesday, July 7, at Montague Hall, Hounslow, on Wednesday, July 8, at St Paul’s Church, Brentford, and on Thursday, July 9, at Chiswick Town Hall.

Stuart Parrott ● 6179d107 Comments

"Another attendee commented afterwards that he thought Cllr Hardy was 'the most charismatic of the bunch.' Agreed."Yes many think he should stand as MP

Steve Taylor ● 6165d

I'd like to second Tim's favorable comment on Jon Hardy.I was unfamiliar with this councillor until the meeting so was pleasantly surprised by his very sensible, balanced, non-doctrinaire responses to questions. He seems genuinely on the side of the electorate rather than the too-familiar party machine.Another attendee commented afterwards that he thought Cllr Hardy was 'the most charismatic of the bunch.' Agreed.

MP Parry ● 6166d

Robin,At no point were the audience told that they mustn't discuss councillors' allowances. The reason that I asked the question about councillors' allowances was that I felt it was pointless discussing MP's allowances as the elected MP could not be bothered to turn up and be accountable to her constituents, and it was one of the subjects that you said wouldn't be on the agenda. It was a member of the audience that wanted to stop the discussion on this subject.

Andrew Sibley ● 6166d

And I will not be calling you a politician.

Sarah Felstead ● 6166d

... Well if it's any consolation, I won't be calling you "a good anti racist".

Robin Taylor ● 6166d

"some of the audience were not willing to be told by the Lib Dems and ICG that they mustn't discuss councillors' allowances."I must correct that as it was a member of the audience who wished to return to MPs expenses. The panel seemed perfectly happy to discuss councillors' allowances.

Kath Richardson ● 6166d

AdamYou acknowledge the challenge that we were up against of marketing these meetings in a way that is appealing.If there were more public meetings with cross-party panels on these issues in future (someone at the Chiswick meeting suggested monthly!), how would you suggest leaflets are headlined?Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6166d

Robinthank you for those Kind words but you have to Understand I worked really hard on Ivybridge to Bring a United, un political Resident association on Ivybridge and i feel the only group that was, was IVYTAG which i built up and even got the ethnic Community Involved.I also have to state that i was Glad IVYTAG was set up against NITA as NITA was way to Political and run unfairly.But i am also sad that the new RA seems to be the same as NITA and nothing has been done about this and now the residents of Ivybridge have given up again.I wont Get involved in the other part of your Posting regarding the ICG as this is not my business and would rather not get involved.I hope you understand why i am so Passionate about IVYTAG not being Attacked as it was a Fantastic group which had some Great Residents on it.

Simon Anderson ● 6167d

Thanks for your reply, Tim

Sarah Felstead ● 6167d

R,The first part was picked up as a quote from Jim's posting.I didn't read that only MP's expense claims were to be discussed.  I didn't read that they refused to talk about Cllrs allowances.You put it very simply for me, and it simply doesn't make sense that you couldn't have gone and participated in a balanced debate.

Sarah Felstead ● 6167d

Simon - watch yourself, this guy is soooow slimey.

Sarah Felstead ● 6167d

Simon,My posting was not in any way intended to be a criticism of you. It's main purpose was to query whether the ICG really has 1,500 members - a claim which many Isleworth residents regard as spurious.As I've said before, I think you are basically a decent guy and a good anti racist. It's just a shame that some people have, in the past, got away with being nasty to you on this forum (after they have used you for their own ends).

Robin Taylor ● 6167d

Tim,I've since noticed (and read) Kath Richardson's account of the meeting and am glad to see that some of the audience were not willing to be told by the Lib Dems and ICG that they mustn't discuss councillors' allowances.Kath's account of the proceedings seems comprehensive but I would correct her on one thing: it's not true that the Tory leader of Hounslow Council only receives £34k. This is merely the 'Extra Responsibility' part of his pay (which, by the way, he voted to more than double at the same time as forcing through a programme of cuts to public services). His total claim for last year was £44,775.

Robin Taylor ● 6167d

Kath's notes on the meeting (front page) seem very fair to me.There was considerable talk about councillors' allowances (and so much that I think I heard calls for it to be dropped and the pre-arranged  agenda followed).Of the on-stagers, the one who impressed me most was Jon Hardy who, despite claims that he was "crash-damaged" from an incident earlier in the afternoon, still spoke with what came across to me as abundant reasonable common sense without any particular political axe-grinding. He possibly had the advantage of not having to adhere to political spin and could speak what he felt.I didn't warm to Mary McLeod who appeared a very competent Conservative spokesperson and a much more credible candidate than the Tory-boy central party apparatchik that was chosen last time round. I fear that she isn't tough enough to be her own person and she will, like Ann Keen, be dominated by the whipping system when she gets returned to Westminster and Brentford will again have no independent voice to express its concerns.The speaker who resonated most with me was a lady from the floor who was disgusted with the current MP - but was somewhat sad that Brentford was a Labour town but didn't have a Labour candidate fit to vote for. In desperation she said what should happen was that people who wanted to vote Labour should join the party and pressurise the CLP to deselect the sitting MP.I'm seriously tempted to spend the £38 to do as she says....

Tim Henderson ● 6167d

PhilI understand what you Have said but i had to correct him on Membership off IVYTAG whilst i was chair.On the rest of my Posting we will have to Agree to Disagree on this but if i see that IVYTAG is going to Be attacked after all my Hard work i am going to say something, i am just sad that the URA that was started after Both NITA and IVYTAG dissolved did NOT work and we have another Group Like NITA over There a Real shame.

Simon Anderson ● 6167d

PhilI understand what you Have said but i had to correct him on Membership off IVYTAG whilst i was chair.On the rest of my Posting we will have to Agree to Disagree on this but if i see that IVYTAG is going to Be attacked after all my Hard work i am going to say something, i am just sad that the URA that was started after Both NITA and IVYTAG dissolved did NOT work and we have another Group Like NITA over There a Real shame.

Simon Anderson ● 6167d

SimonWe'll clearly have to agree to disagree on the current Ivybridge situation, but I believe Robin's agenda here is simply to try to bring some conflict back to the estate, which obviously doesn't serve either your purpose or mine.  For this reason I would desist from feeding this particular troll for all our sakes.

Phil Andrews ● 6167d

RobinWhen i took over IVYTAG i admit i only met 1 Member which was George Burrell i later was introduced to a Tony Smith.I built IVYTAG up by speaking to a Gentleman on Ivybridge who spoke to the Ethnic Minorities and Got people to Join, i went around the estate and Got people to sign up as Members so i can Assure you we had a VERY large membership.When IVYTAG Dissolved the same day as NITA (who only had about 5 members inc by this Time George Burrell who swapped sides) i think there were around 10 or 11 ex members of IVYTAG who joined the New URA with those Ex NITA members, then one month several other Ethnic Residents came to a meeting to Join but was turned away (later they all put in writing to Join but the URA never wrote back to them) then the Vice Chair and Ex IVYTAG member started to be attacked by the Secretary (ex NITA) and was forced out by a Mocked up Meeting (usual Tactics by Ex NITA members) and in the end all ex IVYTAG members walked as they were disgusted in the way the Vice Chair Was Treated and the Treasurer (a Resident who was independent and was never on either Resident Group) resigned because he Felt undermined by Ex NITA members who set up a bank account Behind His Back, did not consult him on a Photo Shoot on Ivybridge (which consisted of just Ex Nita members and 2 ex Members (not Loyal) of IVYTAG) and he was also Disgusted the way the Ex IVYTAG members were Treated.So basically there were Members off IVYTAG and i still have the Lists of Memberships here which mainly had a large Number of Ethnic Minorities as Members.The URA is still going but only has about 5 members, they still meet every month with Hounslow Homes but i can state that Residents Don't support the RA (you can tell this by the lack of Residents going in to their Office or turning up to there open Meetings or AGM's)

Simon Anderson ● 6167d

Sarah,The reason the Labour Party were not represented was because the organisers were only interested in discussing the expense claims of the local MP.They refused to talk about the £1million spent on councillors' allowances each year; the funding for the Tory parliamentary candidate by multi-millionaires living in tax havens; and the funding of the Lib Dems by a convicted fraudster.They set the terms of the debate - and got the response they deserved.

Robin Taylor ● 6167d

The simple truth is that Phil's party doesn't have the number of members it claims to. (What is it meant to be - 1,500?).Remember when he set up IvyTag to rival NITA. We were told IvyTag had more members and was the true voice of residents on the Ivybridge. But after IvyTag (and Simon Anderson) had served their purpose to Phil, he wound it down amid much acrimony: and then the truth came out - namely, that IvyTag didn't have any "members" at all - and that anyone on the estate who considered themselves to be members were members.I wonder if the ICG really has members - and how many of them pay a subscription. Maybe one day, when the party's over, we'll find out.

Robin Taylor ● 6167d

TonyPhil was Elected on to the Exec Committee as Lead Member of Housing but recently stepped down and I Believe Cllr Hardy is the Lead Member now.I believe there is 2 or 3 ICG Councilors on The exec Now but you could find out on the Council WebsiteI thinnk i am Correct

Simon Anderson ● 6167d

"With the Conservatives, the Lib Dems, the Community Group and the Greens on stage to face Brentford locals at a meeting chaired by Kath Richardson.. it didn't take long for a questioner to ask why the Labour Party wasn't represented at all."Now to put you in the hot seat Jim - how did the 'on stagers', do? Who impressed and why?

Sarah Felstead ● 6167d

PhilCan you please remind me, were you elected as an executive member of the council? How many  ICG councillors are there? How many were elected to the high office of mayor and deputy mayor? If that is what 2% can achieve, just imagine if it becomes 10%. What party did the councillor who flouted planning notices belong to? Perhaps Robin knows?

Tony Stavides ● 6167d

Seems a pretty good summary, although I missed the start of the meeting as you know so some of it is unfamiliar.  Well done and thanks for chairing the meeting, I think you did a fine job.

Phil Andrews ● 6167d

Summary is up on the front page. Apologies for any thing/one that got left out, feel free to correct

Kath Richardson ● 6167d

Isn't it the 'silent majority'?

Colin Murphy ● 6167d

You're right Vanessa, we have no support whatsoever.  Which makes your election drubbing rather difficult to fathom, doesn't it?

Phil Andrews ● 6167d

Actually Dan a low attendance is good news, it could mean that a lot of people are just totally fed-up to their back teeth with Keen bashing, and have exercised common sense preferring to wait for the election next year. Mind you, you have to ask where were the hundreds, nay thousands of ICG members and supporters? Probably stayed in to watch The Bill.

Vanessa Smith ● 6167d

Then perhaps Mary Ma££eod should contact The Times newspaper - because they are under the misapprehension that she was. Further more, the Bromley & Chislehurst Conservative Association (whom Ms Ma££eod once applied to for the post of PPC) still think she is.

Robin Taylor ● 6167d

Colin Murphy ● 6167d

Jim,It was good to see you last night and I was very impressed with your new mode of transport!!What did you think of the panel's answers to my question relating to councillors' allowances? Personally I thought Mary Macleod gave a good answer to my qustion about whether she is, or ever has been, a merchant banker. Wasn't that two issues that Robin Taylor said wouldn't be on the agenda? And for the record Robin, Mary's answer was 'NO' on both accounts.

Andrew Sibley ● 6167d

This of course is true.But with the attendance so low, half those signing could be eliminated - the men - then the councillors, that leaves only 5 or 6, at most 10 to 12. With the intimate knowledge of their constituents, no doubt the ICG would be poring over the lists even now were it not for it being a LibDem meeting. So I expect the charismatic Mr Dakers is even now trying to work out who his oppo might be for last place (unless Phil Andrews stands again to improve on his 2%) in the General Election.

Dan Filson ● 6167d

"Didn't the attendnance list say?"Attendance lists don't normally state the colour of one's hair do they?

Steve Taylor ● 6167d

"The Orange, Red, Pink haired lady" Careless of her not to pass on her name given this colourful - but surely clashing - combination of colours. Didn't the attendnance list say? Did people rally to her oolourful flag?

Dan Filson ● 6167d

Aah yes. The Orange, Red, Pink haired lady with the white shirt seems to be the same one who stood up at the Isleworth meeting and announced her intention to stand as an independent. Did she do the same at the Brentford meeting?

Steve Taylor ● 6167d

Over 50 I counted It was greater than the attendance at the previous meetings..I was told.

Jim Lawes ● 6167d

Number attending? 50? 40?

Dan Filson ● 6167d

Jim Lawes ● 6168d

With the Conservatives, the Lib Dems, the Community Group and the Greens on stage to face Brentford locals at a meeting chaired by Kath Richardson.. it didn't take long for a questioner to ask why the Labour Party wasn't represented at all.  "If Mrs keen had declined why couldn't she have arranged a deputy"I'll leave Kath to quote what happened as she was dealing with the invitation.A goodly crowd of some 50 or more people had turned up at St Paul's Church to listen to the panel and to ask questions. And there were many. I noticed an absence of Labour councillors and officers...is this the norm? and there also seemed to be more women than men in the audience.And didn't they get on their feet!Could others report on the content of the meeting..as my hearing struggled to capture all the nitty gritty..and others are better qualified.ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooHere is a section of the Brentford audience.

Jim Lawes ● 6168d

BRENTFORD: Wed 8 July 2009, St Paul’s Church, 7.30pm - Chair: Kath Richardson (Editor, BrentfordTW8.com),Cllr Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem), Cllr Jon Hardy (Independent), John Hunt (Green), Mary Macleod (Conservative)xxx?  xxx    (Brentford and Isleworth Labour Party)Will a big or little crowd attend to listen and ask questions?  See you there?

Jim Lawes ● 6168d

I still am chap.  It ain't over yet. :o)

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

... was that you still being bitter over the 2005 general election result, Phil? (You know - the one in which your agent Paul Fisher said you were "in it to win it").

Robin Taylor ● 6170d

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

Sarah,I am not aware what your political involement/activity has been in the past and for once I agree with John Major in that it (politics) is a rough old trade. However, taking over someone's house without knowing the full facts of why it is empty, encouraging lazy, work-shy layabouts to squat in it, and generally acting like naughty, nasty little feral kids, and then having the complete stupidity to expect the Keens to turn up to meetings clearly designed to be the nearest thing to a public hanging really does beggar belief. I, probably more than most, owe them nothing at all, in fact the reverse could be said to be the case, but I would not sink to the levels of behaviour I have seen these last few weeks. No doubt we will now have Mr. Perfect, sorry St. Phil of Isleworth, raking up some supposed misdeed from donkey's years ago in rebuttal in an attempt to try and defend all this. It is indefensible, malicious and a disgrace and I really had more faith in the common sense of local people to see this for what it was. How wrong can you be?

Vanessa Smith ● 6170d

Why not come along tonight and get it over with Stuart? :o)

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

No basis for saying this other than a hunch, but I suspect Wednesday will be the most well-attended meeting (at St. Paul's Church).Got the leaflet in the post today, headlining a leaflet "Do you want to put your MP in the stocks ?" doesn't exactly set the scene for a general 'neutral' debate about democracy and accountability does it ?!.  The only people such a craftily headed leaflet will appeal to is the anti-Keen brigade.  I can appreciate that it's hard to make a meeting about democracy / accountability / sustainable communities sound in any way 'sexy' or appealing, but such an unfortunately worded leaflet still stinks of a political stunt, even though as Phil quite correctly points out, the actual people chairing and sitting at the meetings come from a broad spectrum of organisations and groups.I live in a large development and wasn't at all surprised to see that many people had dumped the leaflet on the floor/on top of our boxes, because the average 'bloke in the street' reads that headline and thinks "political mumbo-jumbo" and bins it.

Adam Beamish ● 6170d

Does anyone have an idea which meeting will draw the highest attendance? I ask because I can only find time to go to one.

Stuart Parrott ● 6170d

Just bumping this up again, as the first meeting takes place this evening.

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

The headline is reflective of a many peoples' feelings about a whole host of MPs - across the party political spectrum.  The leaflet goes on to explain that the debate will explore both the issue of expenses and democratic reform.The chair's guidance - which I have shared with the Labour Party - makes it absolutely clear, as I have reiterated on this forum, that the hope is that the meetings will not dwell too long on the expenses issue but will look forward to the opportunities to rebuild trust in our democracy.In the past five years Ann has unfortunately never turned up at a cross party debate in the constituency.Regarding your NHS query, my original comment was:"For a junior health minister - and someone that has been a longstanding and vocal supporter of the NHS - to apparently be giving up on the NHS for treatment as these claims suggest, needs urgent explanation."Ann has now provided the explanation for which I called.  I'm glad she has explained something that would have sensibly been proactively explained by her when the expenses were first released, but I see no need to apologise.  Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6170d

"I have no intention of communicating with you (other than as a political opponent)." I guess then you are refusing to communicate on this important residents' issue because I am not political?"You should learn to read English properly"Thats rude Robin and not really necessary is it?"I've already told you that I think the Labour Party should go around you and your politically biased organisation - and communicate directly with residents on the Mogden issue."Firstly MRAG is not political. Secondly, if that is the out of touch view of the Labour Party, why don't they communicate directly with residents?

Steve Taylor ● 6170d

Enjoy it while it lasts then.

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

... Yes, and Ann Keen is the "residents' own MP".

Robin Taylor ● 6170d

Why?  I'm one of the residents' own councillors.What is really funny is that your lot are wallowing in the obscurity which had been intended for us.  LOL!!!

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

It's funny how anything that has you on its committee is a "residents' own group".

Robin Taylor ● 6170d

"It's a shame Ann Keen doesn't feel able to defend her expenses claim in public but I appreciate with the current furor the audience might be hostile."Andrew,Do you feel that the current furor might have something to do with the nature of the leaflets that you've been putting out about this event?When you distribute fliers that invite people to put Ann Keen "in the stocks" what you are doing is deliberately fermenting ill-feeling towards her. The people I have spoken to in the constituency (and they include some with no political affiliation) do not think she would be given a fair hearing if she did turn up.By the way, are you willing to apologise yet for your claim that Ann has "given up on the NHS" (when she herself has never had any private health treatment?). Or is this smear indicative of the LibDem Focus-style campaign that you will be running next year?

Robin Taylor ● 6170d

So, having lost control of every residents' association in the manor New Labour's new idea is to set up a Labour-only Mogden residents' group, to compete with (and presumably undermine) the residents' own group?Silly Robin, do you not understand that this kind of stunt only works when you have a Labour administration running the local authority?  The present one will only recognise, and work with, the resident-run group.

Phil Andrews ● 6170d

Steve,You should learn to read English properly. I've already told you that I think the Labour Party should go around you and your politically biased organisation - and communicate directly with residents on the Mogden issue.I have no intention of communicating with you (other than as a political opponent).

Robin Taylor ● 6170d

Paul, Will you be giving an account of why you claim over £25k a year for doing your 'voluntary' council job?Thought not.

Robin Taylor ● 6170d

I would be very happy indeed to have an independent body determine the appropriate level of remuneration for councillors, as well as for MPs.  At present it is one of those things that one just cannot have a rational debate about as there is too much scope for politicking, as we have seen on this forum. In our borough we have Labour and other councillors criticising the current allowances, yet I've no doubt that in Labour-controlled boroughs which pay similar rates they face the same criticisms from their own opposition councillors.  A debate which operates on this level cannot aspire to a just resolution.

Phil Andrews ● 6171d

"What we require is a system of payments both locally and nationally that are determined independently of the interested parties - councillors and MP's. There also needs to be a "job description" for all paid responsibilities with appropriate independent monitoring to ensure that those in receipt of the public's tax payments are seen to be earning their monetary gain."I agree entirely.  In the absence of an independent body, you may remember the Hounslow councillor's job description that was signed off by full council (in 2006/7?) with little or no consultation with councilllors.  I think there may also be job descriptions for the lead members in Hounslow, but these are probably functional rather than skills based?My view remains that the job description (I think developed by London Councils) outlines a full time job, which is why I advocate a reduction in the number of councillors - perhaps to two member wards? I.e. a smaller number of better supported councillors. It might also help lower the average age of councillors.There is also an interesting debate to be had as to whether term limits are needed at local and national level.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6171d

It is clear to me that the Keens would be daft to attend these meetings as they will clearly focus on MP expenses. However, the wider topic concerns improving democracy in the UK. Those who have campaigned in the recent elections will know that public anger goes beyond MP's and incorporates criticism of councillors too. The "pigs at the trough" mentality that produced the recent huge increases in allowances at Hounslow is merely a provincial version of the greed observed at Westminster.What we require is a system of payments both locally and nationally that are determined independently of the interested parties - councillors and MP's. There also needs to be a "job description" for all paid responsibilities with appropriate independent monitoring to ensure that those in receipt of the public's tax payments are seen to be earning their monetary gain.

John Connelly ● 6171d

"Suffice to say the whole reason I've essentially given up posting on this particular forum..."Adam, this would seem an odd remark to make seeing as you probably contribute more regularly now than at any time in the past - not that your contributions are not invariably welcome and helpful, I should add.If this is a "political stunt" (on the part of the Liberal Democrats, presumably) it would seem odd that it is being participated in by the Conservative PPC and by councillors from both the ICG and the Hounslow Independent Alliance, as well as by respected non-politically aligned individuals such as the Editor of this forum, the Editor of the Hounslow and Brentford Times and the Chair of the Local Chamber of Commerce, to name a few.I'm afraid it is an easy cop-out for the Keens and their supporters simply to say that they won't be attending the event because it is a "political stunt".  Presumably their non-attendence at the hustings meetinsg during the 2005 general election campaign was justified in the same way?In my own neck of the woods the Labour Party has a long and proud tradition of hardly ever attending events other than those organised and controlled by themselves and - guess what? - the reasoning being that resident-led activities are deemed to be "political stunts".The fact that this series of meetings has been organised by the Liberal Democrats hasn't prevented members of the ICG from distributing leaflets around Isleworth by the thousand urging residents to attend.  Most political parties and groups in Hounslow recognise that public meetings are an integral part of the democratic process and an opportunity for local residents to express their views and frustrations.  It is only New Labour that insists on standing arrogantly aloof from public engagement of any meaningful kind.

Phil Andrews ● 6171d

I was just thinking, in a way it would be extremely funny if the Keens did turn up to these meetings and gave a rousing exemplorary performance which silenced the anti-Keen brigade...After all, it's basic common sense that the last thing the organisers want is for the Keens to turn up.  Of course they won't say that, but if they don't attend (which for entirely understandable reasons they won't) then it will give the anti-Keen brigade political gain by saying "look how they don't even turn up to 'public' meetings set up for you their constituents".....and yet I'm told it's not a political stunt...how stupid do you think I am ?!

Adam Beamish ● 6171d

Yes, Vince Cable has been very active and his various letters to Ofwat, Thames Water and Defra have been disclosed under the rules.  Robin seems to have difficulty addressing the issue as he hasn't contacted me.

Steve Taylor ● 6171d

It'll all return to normal when the chiselling, troughiteer resigns.

Colin Murphy ● 6171d

You know the answer to that as well as I do Paul.  The only people who will attend are those with a strong anti-Labour bias or with nothing better to do.  Suffice to say the whole reason I've essentially given up posting on this particular forum is because almost every thread has become so pathetically politically orientated.

Adam Beamish ● 6171d

Will we see our out of Borough friends Robin Taylor and Dan Filson attending tomorrow night or will they be in disguise writing notes for their masters?

Paul Fisher ● 6171d

Steve you said to Robin above - "However please would you PM me your private email address / phone number as you raise an important point about Ann Keen doing lots of behind the scenes work on Mogden. I discussed this with solicitors today and it seems that although we subpoenaed Hounslow Council and Thames Water under document disclosure rules, we didn't obtain documents from Ann Keen. We have a couple of documents from Thames Water relating to correspondence with Ann Keen which were disclosed under the rules but from what you say there should be 10 to 15 years of missing correspondence from Ann Keen's side which may include letters to LBH, Secretary of State, Junior Ministers, Defra, Ofwat etc. If you can PM me your contact details I will arrange for solicitors to interview you to find out more about the background work you are aware of." Steve - How many MPs are working on Mogden - Who are they?Do they work together (cross party) for the public good?  How do they liaise on a common subject such as this? Is there one of them particularly shining above the rest or is it good community team work between them all?

Sarah Felstead ● 6171d

Come off it Vanessa, Politics appears to be one huge very malicious political stunt with even genuine people being sucked into it - hence the expenses scandal with new MPs being encouraged to work out what they can spend not what they need to claim back from genuine costs.  We need Politicians to stand on their own two feet.

Sarah Felstead ● 6171d

I agree Adam, It is so nice to see that someone can tell right from wrong. Whatever the Keens have done - and I hold no brief for them either, these meetings would be ambushes and they wouldn't have a hope of anything like fair hearing, you'd have to have a death wish to bother going, it would be a bloodbath metaphorically speaking. I think this whole thing with the house etc. has been one  big malicious political stunt.

Vanessa Smith ● 6171d

JUST A REPEAT: ApologiesooooooooooooooooooooooooooooPhil,Thanks for that very helpful link to your BLOG which, amongst many other things, lists the Venues and planned participants.The organisers seem to have done well in making contact with so many key people.I'm just copy and pasting a small section from your blog. There are some interesting names there:ISLEWORTH: Monday, 6th July 2009 - Isleworth Public Hall, 7.30 pmChair - David Pavett (Chairman, Campion Concerns)Councillor Phil Andrews (ICG)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)John Hunt (Green Party)HOUNSLOW: Tuesday, 7th July 2009 - Montague Hall, 7.30 pmChair - Peter Hughes (President, Brentford Chamber of Commerce)Councillor John Connelly (Hounslow Independent Alliance)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)John Hunt (Green Party)BRENTFORD: Wednesday, 8th July 2009 - St. Paul's Church, 7.30 pmChair - Kath Richardson (Editor, Brentford TW8.com)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)Councillor Jon Hardy (ICG)John Hunt (Green Party)Mary Macleod (Conservative PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)CHISWICK: Thursday, 9th July 2009 - Chiswick Town Hall, 7.30 pmChair - Helen Barnes (Editor, Hounslow & Brentford Times)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)Henry Gewanter (Independent, involved in expenses leak to Telegraph)Mary Macleod (Conservative PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)

Jim Lawes ● 6171d

Phil,Thanks for that very helpful link to your BLOG which, amongst many other things, lists the Venues and planned participants.The organisers seem to have done well in making contact with so many key people.I'm just copy and pasting a small section from your blog.  There are some interesting names there:ISLEWORTH: Monday, 6th July 2009 - Isleworth Public Hall, 7.30 pmChair - David Pavett (Chairman, Campion Concerns)Councillor Phil Andrews (ICG)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)John Hunt (Green Party)HOUNSLOW: Tuesday, 7th July 2009 - Montague Hall, 7.30 pmChair - Peter Hughes (President, Brentford Chamber of Commerce)Councillor John Connelly (Hounslow Independent Alliance)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)John Hunt (Green Party)BRENTFORD: Wednesday, 8th July 2009 - St. Paul's Church, 7.30 pmChair - Kath Richardson (Editor, Brentford TW8.com)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)Councillor Jon Hardy (ICG)John Hunt (Green Party)Mary Macleod (Conservative PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)CHISWICK: Thursday, 9th July 2009 - Chiswick Town Hall, 7.30 pmChair - Helen Barnes (Editor, Hounslow & Brentford Times)Councillor Andrew Dakers (Lib Dem PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)Henry Gewanter (Independent, involved in expenses leak to Telegraph)Mary Macleod (Conservative PPC, Brentford & Isleworth)

Jim Lawes ● 6171d

Just for info...http://philandrews.blogspot.com/2009/07/take-back-power-in-hounslow-isleworth.html

Phil Andrews ● 6171d

It might be""a kamikaze move if they went near the meeting""in Isleworth on Monday.ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooBUT at the Brentford Meeting she will surely be amongst friends!! 

Jim Lawes ● 6171d

Adam, If a group of independent residents set up meetings I would happily participate.  The reality is that even if an 'independent' had been the initiator, my participation would still be no more or less 'political'.  The logistics are such that I can well understand why others haven't tried!  All the chairs of the meetings are independents.  See http://takebackpowerhounslow.org/events.aspx ...and there are independents on the panels.To be absolutely clear I am organising these meetings because I believe with trust at an all time low the only way to start rebuilding confidence is for politicians across the political spectrum to get creative (there is such a derth of originality) and develop a new approach to politics at all levels with our local communities.  Its a shame that Ann Keen doesnt feel able to defend her expense claims in public (others in the government have tried with varying degrees of success), but I appreciate that with the current furor the audience might be hostile.  As I said in another posting I hope the meetings don't dwell too long on the expenses issue.If you drill down into the website www.takebackpowerhounslow.org - where we set out reform proposals (a conversation starter I hope) and also the opportunity with the Sustainable Communities Act to quite literally 'take back power' from central government in some areas - the rational behind the title may be clearer!Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6171d

I find myself agreeing with Robin on this one, at least his point about the meetings being nothing more being a political stunt - I mean after all they are being organised by the Lib Dems, not by a independent set of residents, but by a political party, so therefore by definition they are politically motivated.I mean 'Take Back Hounslow Power', I'm sorry but such an absurd name only makes me laugh, it's like the name of some extreme left wing gorilla faction.Will the Keens attend ? - of course they bl**dy well won't, and do I blame them ? - not at all, would be a kamikaze move if they went near the meeting.And just to be clear if I haven't already been clear in other posts, I am not a Labour voter and I am not a fan of the Keens.

Adam Beamish ● 6172d

RobinMy views on councillors' allowances have long been in the public domain:"Whilst we have always supported increased remuneration for councillors what we do not support are part time Exec members taking full time allowances. Special Responsibility Allowances (SRAs) should be taken on a pro rata basis so that Lead members get a living wage …a fair living wage."Source: http://www.hounslowlibdems.org.uk/speeches/000009/council_budgettax_speech.htmlMy view is based on the role description for councillors - see pg 51 of http://www.lgiu.gov.uk/admin/images/uploaded/The%20role%20of%20councillors.pdfAt the 'Councillors Commission' I argued that there should be both a part-time and full-time councillor role descriptions with remuneration on a pro rata basis.  I believe this would increase the accessibility of the role to a much wider number of people.  I also believe we should reduce the number of councillors, as well as MPs - and it wont surprise you to know that I support proportional representation at a local level.I would argue next week's debates are timely rather than opportunistic.  I very much hope that rather than dwelling too long on the expenses issue that we will instead look forward at long overdue broader reforms of our democracy, as well as opportunities the Sustainable Communities Act offers for local councils to take back some powers from central government.  I think that is far from being a 'selective' terms of reference for the debates.Best regards, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6172d

If Mrs Keen is unable to attend the Isleworth meeting on Monday.....will she send a deputy?

Jim Lawes ● 6172d

TimThe leaflets are all the same in essence, the different localised versions just advertise different meetings.

Phil Andrews ● 6172d

He was providing Chiswick or Brentford ones to match the taste of the punters.

Tim Henderson ● 6172d

Yes, except I'd guess they were the Brentford version.

Phil Andrews ● 6172d

Are they the same "Want to put your MP in the stocks ?" flyers that Andrew Dakers was handing out at the Brook Road South gig last night ?Or something different ?

Tim Henderson ● 6172d

A big thank you to the many people who have volunteered at very short notice to help out with the leaflets in Isleworth.  Stifling hot, but they're still going out all over the place.

Phil Andrews ● 6172d

good idea

Steve Taylor ● 6172d

I thought I'd bump this up, seeing as the date of the first meeting is fast approaching.  Lots of local interest appears to be gathering in Isleworth.

Phil Andrews ● 6173d

would be rather like a performance of Shakespeare's "Hamlet" without the Prince.The Keens have been challenged time and time to explain themselves in public meetings and they have refused.There is no chance they will now.

David Giles ● 6177d

Robin - I haven't ducked the question. I just haven't had the energy to spell it all out again but I will do. However please would you PM me your private email address / phone number as you raise an important point about Ann Keen doing lots of behind the scenes work on Mogden. I discussed this with solicitors today and it seems that although we subpoenaed Hounslow Council and Thames Water under document disclosure rules, we didn't obtain documents from Ann Keen. We have a couple of documents from Thames Water relating to correspondence with Ann Keen which were disclosed under the rules but from what you say there should be 10 to 15 years of missing correspondence from Ann Keen's side which may include letters to LBH, Secretary of State, Junior Ministers, Defra, Ofwat etc. If you can PM me your contact details I will arrange for solicitors to interview you to find out more about the background work you are aware of. Many thanks

Steve Taylor ● 6177d

Steve,I notice you ducked my question as to why your preferred candidate (Andrew Dakers) voted both ways on the Mogden expansion issue.I also notice that you have no argument to put up as to why locals should trust your second preferred candidate (merchant banker Mary Mac£eod) when her party has received at least one large financial donation from Thames Water.Don't get me wrong, I work in the private sector (and I believe in a strong market economy) but the privatisation of the public utilities in general (and water in particular) has to rank as one of the biggest scandals of our time. The fact that the water companies then chose to make financial donations to the very party that privatised them only compounds that scandal. In fact, the whole thing stinks almost as much as Modgen itself.Private companies, unless properly regulated, will cut corners so as to maximise profits. That's why life is such a misery for people within the vicinity of Mogden right now. You can attempt to fool residents into believing that it's all Labour's fault. Alas, too many people know where the real blame lies.

Robin Taylor ● 6177d

More debates about expenses with no avenue of sorting this out because the MPs themselves don't get it?  Why not debate what actually is important to the people of this County and then set about sorting things out?

Sarah Felstead ● 6177d

Money where their mouth is?Some of the most vulnerable people in the land have money deposited with the Court of protection.  I wonder just how much they have tucked away in those deposits?We have just had a letter concerning a relative - giving the new rate of interest the Court is paying for this money, invested on his behalf.The wonderful protective system which takes over when somebody cannot administer their affairs is now paying 0.5% interest on the account they hold his money in.  Glory be.

Sarah Felstead ● 6177d

Yes last night residents had to threaten Thames Water with mass attendance at the Mogden gates (together with hard working Ward Cllrs) but where was our MP? No doubt working behind the Scene from 9 miles away in Waterloo??

Steve Taylor ● 6177d

Whilst we are about it, can we look forward to the land with no trees or green gardens and overcrowded house-slums with lots of these sorts of buildings?http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.aspx?edid=00&salerent=1&pid=620880http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.aspx?edid=00&salerent=1&pid=4177274Why cannot the politicians actually sort some things out instead of spinning us all in circles with total rubbish, we really do not believe.

Sarah Felstead ● 6177d

How many tims do we have to tell Robin. The debate is about MP EXPENSES not Cllr expenses or City Hall expenses. If Robin wishes to chair a debate about Cllr expenses I am sure he will get some attendance but Cllr Dakers' debate is about MP expenses. End of story!

Steve Taylor ● 6177d

So, another smoke screen, Robyn?In that case, moving on,  can we have some more information about how our MPs are getting along fighting our corner with Mogden?  How are things progressing?  When can the people living around the area look forward to throwing open their windows on a hot night?Moving on, ditto the planes.Whilst we are looking forward can somebody please explain why our Town centre is still a total mess?  There once was enough land to build a centre to rival Kingston.  Will the town ever have a nice centre and heart again or should we ditch it and built more and more and more flats?:-(

Sarah Felstead ● 6177d

Oh, I see! So Andrew Dakers will be on the panel, will he? How very politically impartial. In that case, Phil Andrews can no doubt attend safe in the knowledge that his £50,000+ of councillors' allowances (trousered over the last two years) will not be one of the issues on the agenda.I wonder if Mary Mac£eod will put in an appearance and explain the expenses scandal engulfing her party at city hall: after all, she hosted a visit from Boris only this month.

Robin Taylor ● 6177d

Throwing accusations around is not helping anyone - take it on the nose and tell us the truth.

Sarah Felstead ● 6177d

Robin,I'm sure that Councillor Dakers and all the other members of the panel will be delighted to take questions from you regarding councillors' allowances. The question is will Mrs K££n be there to answer questions on MP's allowances?

Andrew Sibley ● 6177d

Steve,You wouldn't want to meet me. I'm seven foot four and weigh 42 stone.

Robin Taylor ● 6178d

The debate is about MP expenses not Cllrs pay and expenses.I hope you will come Robin along. I would love to meet you as I have lots to say to you which is too boring for this forum. Who knows, we may find we are related!

Steve Taylor ● 6178d

Stuart,Who says I'm opposed to democratic debate? I'm simply opposed to political stunts.The issue of why Charlie Kennedy claimed money for a Remembrance Sunday poppy wreath will not be on the agenda because it does not suit the Lib Dems to talk about it.Another matter (of major local relevance) which will not be discussed is the fact that Tory and ICG councillors have claimed a total of £1,056,600 in allowances and expenses since they (and half of the Lib Dem group) voted to hike their pay two years ago. The reason it will not be discussed is because it's not on your political agenda (you are out to get the Keens) and because Andrew Dakers does not want to do anything to embarrass his ICG friends. (He is, after all, locked in a struggle with Mary Macleod for the ICG's vote bank).

Robin Taylor ● 6179d

Robin, why are you so opposed to democratic debate?

Stuart Parrott ● 6179d

I'll sit with you Robin..especially if you wear your BLUE scouts leaders uniform. ;0)What other opportunity will you have of hearing what Mrs Keen has to say about the scandals and disgrace?  Maybe you speak to her regularly already.Nonetheless, your attendance would be welcome to aid factual explanations, understanding and clarity. Will Mrs Keen take 20 questions from the floor?

Jim Lawes ● 6179d

Come again ..?What makes you think I'm worried about getting hurt?I won't be coming because I don't agree with the terms of reference of the meetings. I think they amount to nothing more than a political stunt. By the way, I think your mate Andrew Dakers should do Ann the courtesy of apologising for his erroneous claim that she had "given up of the NHS" - especially given the fact that it has now emerged that the private health assessment was not for her. Somehow, though, I doubt one will be forthcoming.

Robin Taylor ● 6179d

Touché, a witty riposte indeed but at risk of stating the obvious your non-attendance - given your keen interest (no pun intended) in all that happens in Hounslow - would rather confirm your reputation in these parts as being something of a cyber warrior.  Nobody will hurt you if you come along Robin, I promise.

Phil Andrews ● 6179d

I'm not a Hounslow resident, Phil.

Robin Taylor ● 6179d

Why don't you come along and give us your point of view Robin?

Phil Andrews ● 6179d

Oh, I see, so it's now become a debate about the Keens.I must admit, I didn't think Andrew Dakers would really want to include the issue of the hiking of senior councillors' allowances. (After all, half of his Lib Dem group voted for the increases, so it would be a bit of a sensitive issue for him, wouldn't it?).People can judge for themselves the real value of these debates given their opportunistic and selective terms of reference.

Robin Taylor ● 6179d