Forum Topic

CPZ Consultation in Brentford

I understand that a consultation is to take place in the Griffin Park/St.Pauls area of Brentford.I do hope that this time, unlike the last proposed scheme, that it is a sympathetic and a benefit bringing scheme.The previous proposal would have resulted in over 90 less parking spaces than currently exist.The hours were long and would have been discriminatory towards those who come home from work late as only yellow line spaces would be left.I do hope that the consultation, offers clear facts and options, and dispels some of the myths that several residents locally seem to be assuming.For example, a CPZ does not entitle you to a parking space outside your home. It does not even entitle you to a space in your street.Under the last plans there would have been approx. 130 more permits than spaces, coupled with the loss of existing space from turning points and extended double yellows on street corners.It needs to be clear as to who exactly it is who you want to prevent. If it is other residents from a full neighbouring street, it will be the same ....apart from paying for it on top.I hope too, that others are considered. There are many elderly here who do not have cars but rely on visitors who are often also elderly, who visit by car and help with the shopping,  trips out etc,- all part of modern life.  CPZs can stop this, elderly do forget and get hit hardest with tickets, as do young mums. Elderly though, fret and worry and simply do not visit anymore. The CPZ has affected their quality of life indirectly.This has happened to my parents in another borough and suffice to say they now get few visitors and life has become housebound and lonely for them and many others.It also makes life constantly clock conscious. Is this not bad enough in London life already?I hope options exist. In Ealing, the zone C scheme is considered too draconian with six days a week and late hours. Residents campaigned in vain but it was too late. But, such was the wave of discontent that a different option emerged for zone N. The result was zone N became a one hour ban in the morning and the same in the afternoon.The result has been that this less restrictive zone has an equal effect to zone C. No all day commuters, day trippers or long term airport parkers. But far easier for friends, relatives and tradesmen. Permits also cost just £25 and the council has pledged to not allow it to rise or become a front for a cash making scheme. We should not be financially penalised for a problem caused by others.Evenings can still be tight to park and indeed this will be the same for Brentford, but it is all residents, and they will all be entitled to permits.So if the gripes are about evenings then the CPZ will change nothing apart from make it even harder to park.So please, let's hope all the options are offered and residents understand all the implications

Anthony Waller ● 6161d29 Comments

Thanks for this reply and you're right - it galls me to have to pay a single extra penny to Hounslow Council - but then, I choose to live in London and that's what we, as London residents, do. Pay.And, I'll tell you what, I'll happily pay to ensure that my wife and three small children can park within 100 yards of my house. Doesn't have to be outside my house. Somewhere on the street would do - which is something that has been an impossibility for the last two days.And on match days - sorry? Haven't footie fans heard of public transport? What makes them think, other than ignorance, that they can simply cruise up in their cars, to a venue without a car park, in a residential area, and dump their vehicles on the street? I accept it's unlikely to change, but I'm surprised that people find this behaviour acceptable.

Jeremy Probert ● 6126d

I have absolutely no axe to grind but I cannot understand why you want to give even more money to the local council just in the hope of being able to park outside your house.  I live in a flat with a car park for residents but it doesn't stop strangers parking and wondering off.  I watched two different drivers do it last night.  It's annoying but its just something we have learned to live with. My niece lives in South Ealing where they have a CPZ I went to visit her on Friday evening before 7.30 and she had to provide me with a ticket to put on my car and these are obviously at an additional expense to her which she was complaining about.  Evidently a friend that was visiting her the other week got a ticket at 10.04 when the restrictions begin at 10.00a.m. - £60 for visiting a friend!  Someone I work with lives in Silver Crescent just opp Gunnersbury Station and she is not happy about the cost of the permits and visitors tickets she has to purchase and doesn't think parking in her street has become very much easier.  The Chiswick website has several postings of residents who did not receive renewal notices from the council and received parking tickets because their permits had expired.  All these things can happen to anyone at any time and you appear to actively want to join in and chuck more money at the council and put more people at risk of huge fines!I really don't understand.  My daughter lives in Braemar Road for goodness sake and it's a rare thing for her to be unable to park except obviously on match days when clearly you don't go out in the car if you want to come back before the match is over.  Everyone knows that. What's the problem?I live opposite the library and last night I must admit I observed several vehicles parked beside the library at the E2 bus stop which was clearly ridiculous as the buses couldn't pass and had to come out of Windmill Road on the wrong side of the road.  Clearly those vehicles should be ticketed but it was presumably too late for parking wardens so I suspect the situation you describe in Hamilton Road would have occurred whether there was a CPZ or not as they are not effective 24 hrs a day.

Bernadette Paul ● 6126d

Does anyone have an idea when/if this consultation is taking place - seems to be a very well-kept secret currently.I ask simply because last night, on Hamilton Road, I counted seven vans quite obviously being parked overnight by people who live elsewhere, in areas with CPZs.The issue is that as more and more areas get CPZs, the 'free parking' (particularly for work vehicles - the vans that no-one wants to take back to where they live) becomes less. In the seven years I've lived in Brentford, the situation has gradually deteriorated and has got noticeably worse in the past six months alone.I would respectfully suggest that the roads around Griffin Park do not want to hesitate any longer in the implementation of a CPZ (like the Zone N in Northfields). It's been argued that a CPZ will lose us parking spaces - probably not as many as were lost last night on Hamilton Road, thanks to the influx of LGVs.

Jeremy Probert ● 6126d

I'm glad that there appears to be a consensus of common sense and practicality to the possible proposals. It's rather reassuring to see that for once it has not become the usual slagging match of amateur politicians from class 3a and a few decent opinions and observations posted. Let's hope it all gets taken on board!

Anthony Waller ● 6140d

Half of Brentford is already in one CPZ or another.Unfortunately it is a mix of local and commuters who jam up some streets but this is becoming concentrated because of the CPZs.Of course it is the same for Brentford residents who drive to wherever they may work too. If you drive to work you are a commuter, the same if you take the bus or a tube, even if it is just one or two stops.The biggest blow for local workers and commerce was in the Butts which once had more than enough space to accomodate trade in the high street. It is still perverse that such a wide street does not have angles parking available when neighbouring streets with barely enough space to negotiate a mini have had to endure the fall out.Stop and shop with a 2 hour max would be far better there.What we do not want is another scheme like the Butts which addresses exclusivity first and practicality second at the expense of other streets.From my experiences the biggest problem is parking in the evenings and I cannot see what a CPZ will achieve as the vast majority of vehicles parked after 7pm are those of residents. They will all be entitled to a permit but there may well be less spaces. Those with permits who work late hours will have to park on yellow lines and then have to get up early to move their cars when the enforcement hours start in the morning. Or risk a ticket or being towed.That is seriously detrimental to the quality of life for quite a few people in this district. There would need to be an exemption for permit holders parked on yellow lines unless parked in such a way as to block a junction etc.Try living in Fulham with a car. After just a few days and it becomes a life based around the clock, packed with angst and paranoia.Not here in Brentford, not like that. It must be far more flexible.

Michael Brandt ● 6141d

If you live and work in Brentford, then there should be no problem. The cost of a resident's permit - while still a cost, obviously - is not just the province of rich directors or managers on a good whack. If you work in Brentford and don't live within walking distance of Brentford, might I suggest public transport? It's cheaper, more convenient, less harmful to the environment and doesn't involve any parking issues.(And before anyone has a go - yes, I have a car. Yes, I drive it in London. And - yes - I travel to work on public transport.)

Jeremy Probert ● 6141d

Just reading the threads of the consultation I would like to put forward that no-one has considered the economic well-being of Brentford.  There are still a lot of people who work in Brentford and require free parking - we're not all rich directors or managers on a good 'whack' - just plain old working class.  What arrangements/considerations will you make for the shop traders and their parking requirements?Most workers (and I'm talking about those who work in Brentford - not the commuters) park in St Paul's Road.  This has a park on one side of it.  Are you advocating a CPZ on that side as well?Whatever the considerations/consultation a bad CPZ or one that's going to cost the businesses and their workers money will eventually kill the High Street."Here endeth the first lesson".

Eileen Henderson ● 6141d

Well if it gets to the stage, I do hope as has been reiterated here, that the officials do not come up with the same wholly unsatisfactory scheme as the last one.Presumably Matt, They will offer a range of schemes and the choice can be made and if none are satisfactory, then local input can be allowed so as to tweek the scheme to suit the area best.

Michael Brandt ● 6152d

Thanks for this Matt - I live in one of the roads around Griffin Park and I know that there is an appetite for a CPZ right now. I think it's also understood that not everyone wants it, and it's not going to be perfect.What would be good, however, is if residents could be involved in the drawing up of detailed plans - the way you describe the process is that households will be invited to an exhibition of plans that are already drawn up - something of a fait accompli. Having been involved in these things before, I know quite well that by the time you reach the exhibition stage, although it is called 'consultation', it's really a presentation of the way things are going to be.If you read through this thread, you'll see that while many are broadly in favour of a CPZ, or at least accept it may be inevitable, there is widespread agreement that the council MUST take into account the needs of the area and how things work now - and refrain from a surfeit of yellow lines, loading bays and parking places, simply because 'that's how it's always done'.Detailed plans need to be drawn up in partnership with the residents.

Jeremy Probert ● 6152d

There'll be two stages of consultation. The first simply asks if the household concerned thinks that parking is a problem, and whether or not they would be interested in taking part in a more detailed consultation at a later stage. If there's a general feeling that things are ok, that's as far as it goes.If households do want to take part in a further consultation, our traffic officers draw up detailed plans on where the bays will go, where the pay and display places will be, what the potential hours of operation can be and all the other vital detail. There'll be an exhibition attended by officers and every household will get details through the door.We then examine the results and decide what to do. If there's a majority in favour then one can be recommended, if not then it won't. Households around Griffin Park went through this process about six years ago and said no - but we have been told by some residents that circumstances have changed, hence the requests to consult again.I think that there's no solution that will make everyone happy and it's a difficult task for councillors to weigh up potential options. However the decision making process is held in public and therefore we will be fully accountable.I expect the first round to take place in September, as doing it in the summer holidays would clearly be wrong.Matt

Matt Harmer ● 6152d

Hi Matt"If we get to that stage"...that sounds ominous. How do we get to that stage? And what might stop us getting to that stage?If we're still talking about a CPZ - everywhere else seems to have one - what's preventing the area around Griffin Park and St Pauls?I do hope we're not NIMBYs - are we?Jeremy

Jeremy Probert ● 6155d

Jeremy, the offer of a limited-hours scheme will be one of the options open to residents if we get to that stage.Matt

Matt Harmer ● 6155d

We seem to have it sorted then.A matchdays ban, as described, would address the football fans parking issue - not completely, obviously, but word would get round that something was in place and it would act as a deterrent. (And before anyone says it, yes, if you choose to live near a football stadium, or rugby stadium, then you should expect some disruption - this is about minimising the disruption so that residents and venue can co-exist peacefully.)I'm aware that Brentford is strapped for cash, and I sympathise (but, as in all things, it's about how you use the money you've got - I'd love to say to the council 'oh - I can't pay my council tax this year, because I'm a bit short'). Perhaps the club could, however, at low cost, start a communications drive to inform fans of visiting clubs about the public transport options and also lobby TfL to put on extra services on match day? I'm stating the obvious, and it's probably already being done, attitudinal shift takes years and getting extra services is/will be the labour of Sisyphus - but still........Now that's sorted, then - how about a CPZ Monday to Friday, covering the hours 1000-1100 and 1600-1700, with not much in the way of additional yellow lines, to deter the day trippers and long-term-car-park-customers?

Jeremy Probert ● 6155d

Matt,There can be a few changes with the RFU during the year, what they also do is deliver the 'Rugby Post' newsletter every few months with an updated fixture list for residents. There was also a lot of work done with the transport people and the Police to try and get as many fans to and from matches without using cars which has been pretty successful. The fact does remain though that if you live near any sports stadium some disruption during their season is inevitable.

Vanessa Smith ● 6155d

The problem here is similar and the simple thing was to go out after kick off and come back after the crowds have gone home or when you get back leave the car in another part of Brentford for a few hours.This was prudent when so many away fans used to go on a rampage keying cars and busting mirrors - not naming any teams but locals know which teams have the worst fans. This has not now happened for a number of years thankfully.Trouble is now we are hemmed in by other CPZs so it leaves us with nowhere to go.A matchdays ban should work and should apply to vehicles in the streets parked after eg, 10am. So non permit cars parked earlier in the day and not associated with the football crowd do not get penalised.It's simple, the wardens note all non permit vehicles anyway, but do it prior to 10am and anything arriving after is excluded, at their own risk.

Michael Brandt ● 6155d

We've asked that it be considered. Brentford FC don't have the resources but it may be possible to bring it in as part of any CPZ that residents choose for the area, funded as part of the GSK planning agreement. One possible area of difficulty may be identifying in advance the fixture days, as they can change during a season. This may cause difficulty with traffic orders etc, but we will investigate all opportunities.

Matt Harmer ● 6155d

Here in close proximity to the RFU stadium we have a match day CPZ, this is free and paid for by the RFU after lots of talking and consultation some years ago. It has made a tremendous difference, at one time you didn't dare go out on a match day for fear of not being able to even get back to your street, and if you did you had no chance of being able to park. That no longer happens although you are wise to go out once the crowds have gone in, and give them time to clear the area afterwards. There have been some areas of concern but overall it has been a great success and I wonder if this isn't worth exploring in Brentford although I doubt Brentford FC have the resources to subsidise it, however the match day only aspect might be worth considering? 

Vanessa Smith ● 6155d

I quite agree, It seems all that would be needed would be the simplest possible scheme.Saturdays need only be enforceable on matchdays or during the season only.Matchdays are not always saturdays though. So a bit of thought needs to go in here.We all live with the football ground here. It's very much part of what makes this area so special.We don't want to scare off fans as that would damage the attendances and damage the teams chances.The very nature of football being a national sport means that whilst many fans enjoy group travel, many come from all over and as we all know, West London is losing out on public transport. It can regularly take near 2 hours to get home from work by public transport in the evenings just from the city.The same distance in other directions can now take just 15mins!Maybe if our politicians had to do the same journey for real, every day, something would get done. Like returning a fast Brentford - Waterloo train _ The only fast link possible without huge expenditure immediately possible.So for many, the car is often the only way of even standing a chance of getting to a game. Extra buses, trains etc. are a long gone thing of the past.If they can't lay on extra stuff at big venues like Wembley and the 02 then it surely won't ever happen at Brentford.

Michael Brandt ● 6156d

I used to work for Earls Court Exhibition Centre - which had been there since 1937 - bu that didn't stop the local residents complaining when visitors to the exhibition centre caused problems in the surrounding streets. Just because we live next to a football ground, should we therefore have to put up with badly-parked cars and mindless hooliganism? I've nothing against the football club, or the vast majority of people who come to watch the football - it adds a certain atmosphere to the area - I would, however, like them to consider travelling on the many public transport links that serve the area. A CPZ might (or might not, obviously) go some way to encouraging this. Won't do anything about the hooliganism, mind.But as someone rightly said, on this thread, a CPZ is more about the issues of GSK and the TfL day-trippers - issues that such a scheme would definitely address. In terms of cost, I think we're looking at £25 - £35 pa, which, really, in the great scheme of things, isn't a great deal.What is needed is a CPZ - without too many unnecessary additional yellow lines, and loading bays, and passing places - keeping as many of our parking spaces as possible - which covers a hour in the morning (could be 1000-1100) and an hour in the afternoon (1500-1600) - six days a week. Not difficult, life goes on as normal, and those people who see our roads as free long-term parking can begin to consider alternative methods of transport.

Jeremy Probert ● 6156d

I don't know why anyone would even consider CPZs and it obviously is another earner for the council.  As far as BFC is concerned, it has been there for about 100 years, which is longer than any of the residents.  Why buy a house beside a football ground and then complain about the parking.  Don't get me wrong, I know it can be frustrating on match days but does anyone really want to cough up any more money to the council just to park their car, which is something I suspect most people are able to do most of the time anyway.

Bernadette Paul ● 6156d

It may well be that parking on a yellow line may be OK out of hours but if I come home at 1am from work and that's all that's left then I will have to get up at 8 to move the car to avoid being ticketed or towed. Quite a lot of residents here are late workers and it is hard enough finding a parking space at night, but even if my car is 3 streets away, at least it is not going to cost me for not going to move it until I get up.It means last one home gets a ticket or their life screwed up.The thing is, although the regulations mean passing places and lines have to be implemented, in the main, parking apart, there is rarely any other problem and these additional markings/restrictions are not needed. If they were, then we would have had them here already..and probably for years!The CPZ needs to be as simple and flexible as possible. And short yellow lines on corners just as common sense would be all the additional markings needed.

Michael Brandt ● 6157d

"I cannot see why the council sees fit, when a CPZ is put in place, to add a bunch of yellow lines and various other 'measures' which seem to take away parking spaces."It's a legal requirement that the whole of a CPZ is laid out either with parking or loading bays or with yellow lines.  Councils therefore put either single or double yellows where it's dangerous, or at least undesirable, to park (such as at road junctions), and also insert "loading gaps" with single yellow lines, for use by delivery vehicles or as passing places in narrow roads.  Some residents may feel that more such yellow lines have been laid down than are necessary, but remember that parking on single yellows is generally allowed outside the controlled hours of the zone.

Richard Jennings ● 6157d

I think we're probably violently agreeing on this. As I said, I cannot see why the council sees fit, when a CPZ is put in place, to add a bunch of yellow lines and various other 'measures' which seem to take away parking spaces. Leave it as it is, put in something like the Zone N that has been mentioned in this thread, and, while it's not perfect, it does deter the GSK employees and those who use our roads as the station car park. It would be good, however, if there was some sort of system in place, as there is in Wembley, so that when a match was on, the surrounding roads were closed save for access - something that could be achieved by the (commendable) number of police on duty.I wholeheartedly agree - if you move to the environs of Griffin Park, then expect footie fans. I would rather, however, like Wembley, that Griffin Park was promoted as a 'public transport' venue. I've nothing against sane, ordinary people who wish to watch football and arrive on the train. The imminent home games against Charlton and Millwall however, promise something else - but that's another story.Also - and bit off topic - the times when one had to move one's car to avoid it being damaged - was that in some way acceptable? Par for the course? From where I'm standing, I'm happy to welcome football fans - after all, I live next to a football ground - I'm not (ever) happy to welcome drunken criminal lowlife. And any venue - pub, club, bar, football ground - that regularly attracts this type of person should be (and in the case of clubs, pubs and bars, is) closed down.

Jeremy Probert ● 6157d

Michael wrote: " The trouble with CPZs is that some borough's highways dept's. (and this was certainly the case when the last plans for this area were presented) apply all sorts of traffic regulations which include extended yellow lines on corners, turning places, and visitor only bays."There does seem to be a need amongst Highways Depts to needlessly overcomplicate things to the detriment of residents. The traffic calming scheme in Lionel Road North has been a classic example of this. Countless parking spaces were lost to accommodate the entirely unnecessary chicanes (which do not significantly slow down anybody) when the whole thing could have been done extremely cheaply, without the loss of parking spaces, by installing old fashioned "sleeping policemen" which are much more effective against speeding.

Mick Brent ● 6158d

Brentford FC have only been down for a few seasons and they are now back in the league that they had been in for a long time.The gates will be up for a few matches but otherwise they will probably be much the same as a few years ago.You don't move to a place like this without accepting the disruption from games.It's not too many years since it was prudent to move your car away from the district on matchdays as it was odds on that you would find it damaged in one way or another, Now of course, due to other CPZs you can no longer do this. Thankfully, that antisocial problem has died back but also some of those away teams have not featured in the fixtures for some time.Alsoparking is far is worse when a midweek fixture occurs.We do not need a CPZ to be active every saturday or every weekday evening .Ealing's Zone C has an ammended attached Zone D at the very eastern end of it. This has a seasonal operation and is active during TVU term times only as students are the problem there.Wembley has an event days only system and I believe is free to residents, the stadium being the cause, pays for the implementation.The cause here is mainly GSK and the TfL zone system.I would support GSK having an adequate car park (which they once had) as long as it is underground and the surface returned to park use of some sort.easily possible and removes a problem.Would be even better if it was available on matchdays.I vaguely recall some sort of resident access system in use on matchdays many years back 20?. Where an exclusion zone went in late morning and stayed till half time and just residents were allowed access via New road, Braemar, Albany, Hamilton, Clifden and Brook roads. I think it might have been a token system, but I did not have a car then. can't quite remember, but it was free to residents.The trouble with CPZs is that some borough's highways dept's. (and this was certainly the case when the last plans for this area were presented) apply all sorts of traffic regulations which include extended yellow lines on corners, turning places, and visitor only bays.The passing/turning places used up 3 standard car spaces and there were 2 per street, 3 in Mafeking alone = 9 spaces lost. The extended corner restrictions were 3 cars as well =12 cars lost (8 if sensibly parked) So a total of up to 20 less spaces would have existed in this street alone. It was pretty much the same for the rest of the zone.

Michael Brandt ● 6158d

I wholly accept that CPZs can bring unintended and potentially damaging (quality-of-life-wise) consequences, and I'm all for adopting the Zone N approach.However, living in the environs of Griffin Park, and what with the elevated status of Brentford FC, any CPZ has to take into account the frankly horrific parking issues that occur every other Saturday afternoon during the footie season. That means the CPZ being s six-day a weeker and one of the controlled hours scheduled to coincide with the timings of the footie games.In terms of the reduction of parking spaces that appears to come hand-in-hand with a CPZ - why is that? Can we not just address the issues of the day-trippers and - please - the people who park random vans on our streets overnight, presumably because they're so ashamed of them, they don't want to park them where they actually live? And can we not just address these issues without removing legitimate parking spaces to be used by legitimate residents?I'm sorry - but like many of these local issues, I simply do not see what the difficulty is. The situation is never going to be perfect, there will always be more residents' permits than there are parking spaces, but currently I can't park my car anyway, not because of my fellow residents, but because of the day-tripping mooks and their lack of sensitivity and respect for others.No matter what sort of CPZ we get, it's going to be better than the current situation.

Jeremy Probert ● 6159d

Agreed. CPZ's need to be carefully thought out and be agreed by a clear majority of local residents.We have some very poorly thought out schemes elsewhere in the borough introduce by the previus Labour Council that are very inefficient, totally over the top and disasterous for local businesses.There is a suspicion that CPZ's are being introduced as another form of local taxation by councils who are suffering greatly because of the poor settlements they are receiving from our essentially bankrupt, incompetent and corrupt Labour Government.

David Giles ● 6159d

For too long CPZs were the sledgehammer to crack a nut with unwelcome unintended consequences.  I think we are moving to a far more careful use of them where they are introduced based on the minimum number of hours such as the aforementioned Ealing scheme - which is where I got the idea from!I have long beleived that the IBAC (Isleworth and Brentfor Area Committee) area would benefit from a reassessment of all existing CPZs to winnow out those that aren't working for the overall benefit of residenet.  Would be happy to propose this at IBAC if there is general support for this.Jon HardyCllr for Syon

Jon Hardy ● 6160d

That's a very straight and factual insight and from my experiences, I could not agree more, Some CPZs are far too restrictive without necessity and they do a lot of unseen damage to those we often don't notice.I too very much hope that if we have to have one, it is of the Northfields type.

Michael Brandt ● 6160d