Forum Topic

Commerce Road Public Consultation

Isis, developers of the Commerce Road site are to hold a public consultation to gather interest and views on the important Brentford waterside development.Thursday 1st Oct 5.30-9.00pmDesign for Change Drop-in Event at Grounds CafeRead more about it here

Stephen Browne ● 6074d24 Comments

Simon - I share your frustration at loss of Thames Valley Steels from Brentford.  The challenge for Commerce Rd is now how to put back together a vibrant business community/economy in that part of Brentford. The businesses income now of course needs to be higher value to cover cost of rebuild/ higher land values.Just to add to Stephen's remarks this forum can be an extremely useful space for councillors to engage in discussions regarding local issues, although the formality of letters being sent in to the Council/ councillors is also often necessary.Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 5998d

SimonUnfortunately Commerce Road is not the only area of Brentford to suffer like this - south of Brentford High Street has had the developer take the same approach, taking other sections of the High Street with it because less businesses = less foot traffic = less custom for the businesses left, so the spiral continues.Fortunately dedicated groups like the High Street Steering Group are onto that and have managed to encourage (some) change in mindsets so councils don't try to fleece existing and new shop owners with extortionate rents, and also arranged for extra parking to access the High Street.Not a small task, and ongoing.Some years back there was a planning application for 'rabbit hutches' up to 16 stories high which the local community had refused then had to spend over 30 continuous days in a planning appeal because the developer thought they had the divine right to get what they wanted.Fortunately the Planning Inspector threw out the appeal but not without leaving some holes in the paperwork that might cause complications later on, though we have tried to lobby the Council to close them.In any event the latest attempt is far more interractive with the community - as it should have been from the start - and ISIS with British Waterways are taking a much better approach establishing local community views before going to the planning stage.Interestingly our attempts to get the two major players to talk (ISIS and Ballymore - south of the High Street developer) have resulted in a slight stand-off by Ballymore. Seems they might think they are too big to play with someone else, another developer.Our reasoning behind this is to attempt to not have plans for similar purposes (small offices built on both developments surely would see an over supply) be approved causing an ongoing ghost town effect albeit in a brand new build.All that said, it is the continued an ongoing actions of the local community that ensure Brentford gets more of what it needs and not more of what devlopers want us to have. We all must keep attending local meetings and writing to council where appropriate. Writings in forum such as this, as interesting as they are, do not sway council planners, only letters on their desks do.

Stephen Browne ● 5998d

I may be a bit behind the times with this post but have been looking through this with some interest.Until 2006 I worked in Commerce Road in one of the large warehouses at the end opposite the Bus Garage. As I understand it the main reason the company had to close was due to the fact that British Waterways, the landlord at the time, refused to renew the companies lease on the property. Unfortunately the man who owned the company was of an age where he didn't want the trouble and expense of moving the business so decided to close down and retire instead.I now work for another company in the same business (Steel) and am constantly hearing from ex customers of mine what a shame it was the Thames Valley Steels closed down and what a great company it was to deal with etc etc.Thames Valley Steels was a very succesful company and would doubtless be still trading today as they filled a unique hole in the market in West London. How many other businesses in Commerce Road would still be there today if they hadn't suffered the same fate. The really criminal thing is that if the company had not been effectively closed down by the actions of British Waterways and their agents 15+ people would still be employed there and the building and those neighbouring it would be in far better condition and upkeep than they are.I guess the point I am making is that if other companies had not been effectively evicted by the imposition of either short term leases or non renewal of leases the argument as to whether there is a need/demand would be acedemic because the industry would already be there.The story at the time was that they wanted the canal side of the road empty of tenants so the site could be sold for housing redevelopment. The planning permission would be a lot more difficult to get if there were any businesses trading there and people would be put out of work by the redevelopment. Obviously the way around this was to vacate all the units first and allow them to deteriorate to the extent that they have then you can knock them down and build overpriced rabbit hutches as desired to maximise profits.

Simon Foster ● 5999d

Bumping this back to the top of the list...ISIS recently held ‘Design for Change’ evening workshops to discuss Brentford’s waterside regeneration on 30 Sept and 1 Oct at Grounds Cafe. At this event, local people came up with 4 ‘design options’ for the area. These options have now been drawn up and will be the subject of discussion at our next community event on Thursday 26 November 6-9pm at the Holiday Inn, Brentford Lock Click here for the ISIS leaflet (pdf)

Stephen Browne ● 6005d

For a reminder of the concerns I have been raising see http://tinyurl.com/commerceroadAnyhow, ISIS made a reasonable start of a more participative process with the two evening workshops at Grounds Coffee bar.  It will come as no surprise that I raised concerns on the night (and subsequently) regarding the seeming bias towards residential in the photo collage aspect of the 'Design for change' event.  Anyhow the good news is that the Green employment option for the site has been kept alive and is now to be evaluated further.  See the event report at:http://www.brentfordlockwest.com/DfC%20Feedback%20Report%20Final.pdfISIS are also commissioning some interesting research in preparation for the next public event, to which I have been providing some input, as well as economic viability assessments for the various options.  Fulcrum have been considering the potential for a Brentford-wide energy strategy and SPA Ltd are undertaking research for an Employment Potential report.  The next step in the process takes place on 26 Nov is at Holiday Inn:http://www.brentfordlockwest.com/26%20Nov%20Invite%20Flyer.pdfI hope to see many of you there.Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6014d

and the outcome?

Alan Clark ● 6051d

Reminder for tonights event at Grounds.

Stephen Browne ● 6056d

I agree with Andrew - or else the space and long term prospects for the area will be lost for good.Aren't there some small office units in St Johns Road, Isleworth, with accommodation above and conditions attached that they have to operate as units in order to use the accommodation above?  How does that work?

Sarah Felstead ● 6067d

"I take your point Andrew, but I'd estimate that 75% of the warehouse/office buildings between Ealing Road and the High Street have been vacant since the start of this decade."Agree re office buildings - although along that stretch we have not been helped by the development blight on the high steet.  Not so convinced re warehousing - but this is what needs thorough research, and looking along the Great West Rd too.  Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6067d

I take your point Andrew, but I'd estimate that 75% of the warehouse/office buildings between Ealing Road and the High Street have been vacant since the start of this decade.More and more you find office/light industrial users that have sites which are significantly larger than their current needs, so it doesn't make economic sense for them to remain there.Pubs and petrol stations suffer similar problems - I get sick of seeing disused petrol stations boarded up or used without planning permission as car washes.  Still boggles me as to who actually uses all these 'dodgy' car washes !.

Adam Beamish ● 6067d

AdamAs per my recennt blog post, Commerce Rd was fairly actively used by light industry before ISIS ended a number of tenancies.You say: "Fact is in this day & age there simply isn't the need/demand for employment sites there once was, due to technological advances etc."This assumption needs to be tested - I don't accept it and I have challenged ISIS to provide the evidence.  Commerce Rd is home to OctInk ...and there is significant manufacturing taking place at Bromptons on the Great West Rd.We must also consider the post-crisis macro-economic outlook.  Robert Peston has observed:"This malfunctioning of money markets has also been the trigger for the end of the recycling of the surpluses from China, or others parts of Asia or the Middle East, into loans to us. Over the longer term, it would be a very good thing if these great exporting nations were to consume more of the wealth they generate. That would, for example, create great opportunities for our trading companies."Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/16_12_09_new_capitalism1.pdfGiven this growing swing in economic power from West to East, my view is that - if we develop the UK's talent and skills base - this offers the opportunity for a steady resurgence in the manufacturing sector.  If this is reasonably high value add (ie skilled) manufacturing then I think we should alll welcome this - and the required land allocation/ investment - in Brentford.Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6067d

Well Phil pointed out that he, as a Councillor, was always being told that there is no such thing in planning as precedent, and, as a planning consultant, I'd agree.Developers will pay substantial amounts in S106 contributions relating to developments, usually covering education and infrastructure matters.I wouldn't necessarily disagree that Brentford has too many blocks of flats, but like I said in my previous post the thrust of current national planning guidance encourages this.  Personally however I'd rather see flats than disused, abandoned warehouses, offices etc.

Adam Beamish ● 6067d

Adam, can't see where Phil said 'technically in planning there is no such thing as 'precedent'...' perhaps you could point me in the direction of his post stating this?As to the sewerage system, which was built over a hundred years ago, of course it can't cope with all the sudden demands on it from claustrophobic conglomerate lego designed shoeboxes.  When was the sewerage system last upgraded to meet the demands of all the new flats that have been built in Brentford over the past decade?  do developers contribute towards the upgrade of this sewerage system?  And Brentford does not need nor require any more blocks of flats to create yet another area of urban wasteland on top of the concreted wastelands that already exist.Ferry Quays?Holland Gardens?So many flats blot the landscape.

Anya Morris ● 6067d

Anya,As Phil correctly said, technically in planning there is no such thing as 'precedent'.Most Councils have policies in their development plan (UDP as was, Core Strategy as is now the norm) resisting loss of employment sites unless it can be demonstrated that there is no reasonable prospect of the employment use continuing, or that an alternative use would be more suitable.  Rightly or wrongly national planning guidance encourages the maximum/most efficient use of sites, particularly for housing within the capital.Fact is in this day & age there simply isn't the need/demand for employment sites there once was, due to technological advances etc.As for your comments about the disposal of waste water, sewerage etc, if the network can't handle that due to the inefficiency of the statutory undertaker then the blame lies with that undertaker, and it wouldn't be a reason for refusal of an application that a Local Planning Authority would find at all easy to defend on appeal.Anyhow, it's a Saturday night and I really shouldn't be talking about work !.Adam

Adam Beamish ● 6068d

John, surely the precedent to build flats on employment designated sites was set way before the Barratts build on the old Beechams site?What about Rivers House at Kew Bridge that was previously an office block for a company called Parsons?Or Regatta Point?  Wasn't that an old office block?Or Ferry Quays?  The site of the defunct Manifold Wines warehouse and other assorted derelict factories?Or even Holland Gardens?  Who set the precedent to build on employment designated areas in the first place?In my opinion, my main negativity to building any more blocks of flats in the area is in relation to the disposal of waste water and waste water products.  Thames Water at Mogdon sewerage plant seems to be unable to cope with all the by-products produced in this area and keeps being allowed to dump untreated effluence(I was going to use another word) into the river.  Will it eventually come to the point where we will all be living next to a slow-flowing, tidal, open sewer?

Anya Morris ● 6068d

You can read about the campaigning I have been doing on this issue to "Keep Commerce Road a Commerce Road" at: www.tinyurl.com/commerceroadFrom a sustainable energy perspective, my meeting with ISIS and the specialists 'Fulcrum' they have hired on Tuesday was encouraging. They are proposing the development of a Brentford wide Energy Strategy.  This could lead to the prospective developments all contributing towards different bits an infrastructure that they (and existing large local energy users) could plug into. You can read more about Fulcrum here: http://www.fulcrumfirst.com/  Hopefully this issue/ ideas will be expanded upon at the workshops.Best, Andrew

Andrew Dakers ● 6069d

The Island development across the Canal from Commerce Roadseems to have a blog/website that is mentioning these matters.http://tallowroadisland.wordpress.com/2009/09/

Jim Lawes ● 6072d

AdamTrue, but that makes it mixed use.  The proposals for Commerce Road are for mixed use.That said, we are always being told at that in planning there is no such thing as precedent.  Sadly this principle only seems to apply to individual owner-occupiers and the more minor developments.

Phil Andrews ● 6072d

True John, but if either recently vacated or long vacant employment sites aren't being occupied, then either other development is allowed to take place to bring vitality into an area or it just becomes a ghost-town.  And in respect of the GWQ development Barratt's West London offices are within the development, won't there be a hotel, retail, restaurants etc ? - all employment generating uses.

Adam Beamish ● 6072d

I fear the precedent set when Barratt Homes were given permission to build housing on the Great West Road will make it difficult to resist housing developments on employment-designated sites elsewhere in the area.

John Connelly ● 6072d

Last time I looked Neil they were still there.My concern for this site is that it is a designated commercial area. Mixing in housing with commercial activity is not always a good mix.We must preserve the area for commercial activity or we will loose good local business, not to mention the jobs, from Brentford.

Luke Kirton ● 6072d

Problem is the southside land is owned by a different developer. Are the Deco building still standing or have they gone?

Neil Chippendale ● 6072d

What are the views on this proposed development? Residential or workplace or retail? The previous rejected plans included two 15-storey apartment blocks - what is a suitable height? The previous plans allowed for 900 dwellings - if that was too many what is a reasonable number? And what sort of dwellings - 1-2 bed apartments, or houses?Also, why develop Commerce Road before developing the south high street? (Assuming that these discussions imply such a priority.) Would Brentford not benefit from improving the high street before there is another development of hundreds of 1 & 2 bed flats?

Alan Clark ● 6073d

StephenThanks for this important information.  The implications of this are of course massive and I think this subject deserves to spend a while at the top of the list.

Phil Andrews ● 6074d