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I'm afraid it is very relevant that you try to pass off sleazy New Labour as "socialism" - something which devoted partyists often do when trying to reassure others (and themselves) that there is some kind of ideological basis for their otherwise merely self-serving existence but which is unusual behaviour indeed for one who claims not to have any party political allegiance of his own.Some would question whether the invasion of Iraq and the kowtowing to the right-wing lunatic George W. Bush was an act inspired by a commitment to "socialism".  Or for that matter student loans, bailing out the banks, plans to privatise the Post Office and so on.My criticism and the ICG's criticism has always been of New Labour - of its organisational Stalinism, its social elitism and its control-freakery in the community.  Not of socialism.  It has always been New Labour's practice to try to justify its hostility to the ICG by pretending that there is an ideological argument between us, and by misrepresenting our programme by suggesting that it is hostile to socialism as an ideal.  Despite claiming to be politically neutral you tried to do this too, but you were caught out.  Even though at first I didn't recall the post you were referring to I knew I would not have said what you accused me of saying, and when you produced the post I was proved corrected (you've much to learn Tony - Robin would have pretended he couldn't find it, or changed the subject).Come out of the closet Tony, don't be ashamed of what you are.

Phil Andrews ● 6003d

Sorry Tony, but the bluster is all yours.At 20:00 you wrote:"I remind you again that in a previous post you stated that you 'Wanted to remove the last vestiges of socialism from the Civic Centre' that's not very objective for someone with no political agenda is it?"At 20:33 I wrote:"I have no quarrel with socialism as an ideal and so this is not something that I could imagine myself saying.  I realise of course that some Labour spokespeople now and again interchange the words 'New Labour' with 'socialism' when they want to be thought of as idealists rather than just unashamed power-seekers but then you are not one of them, are you Tony?"At 20:40 you wrote (quoting an earlier posting by myself):"'I am really looking forward to eradicating the last vestiges of New Labour control at Hounslow Civic Centre.  If/when you ever regain control of the borough, say in the year 2050, you will inherit an organisation which is based upon the principles of honour, democracy, equality and fairness.'"At 20:45 I wrote:"Thank you for that Tony.  Clearly I need spectacles, because I cannot see the word 'socialism' anywhere in the quote that you have produced.  I suppose an apology is out of the question?"At 20:52 you wrote:"I'll willingly apologise for using the word Socialism for NuLabour if thats required no problem..my only excuse is that I've just driven 1100 miles in two days through Hell and high water. "At 20:57 I wrote:"You are a spoilsport Tony - I was seconds away from starting a new thread highlighting your substituting of the words 'New Labour' with the word 'socialism' - something New Labour activists often do when they wish to paint their party in an idealistic light but which is highly unusual behaviour for a neutral."I would say you've been well and truly rumbled Tony, wouldn't you?

Phil Andrews ● 6003d

"You have quite clearly stated that I have used "innuendo" against Ann Keen in respect of this particular issue.  My first post makes it absolutely crystal clear that I have done and do not intend to do any such thing."  No,what you did was a rather usual technique of yours,that is you grab something that you think will gain you brownie points (in this case something quite sad),but because you realized it may be contentious you left some "wriggle room". It's an old ploy,.... "I'm not saying it's true,but I've heard that such and such has done/is a whatever" That way you think that you are abrogating yourself should someone pull you up. It doesn't work!"In answer to your question, yes I do believe even that those who identify themselves with one political cause or another should endeavour to consider all the facts objectively (and if you follow all these threads you will have seen that the essence of my problem with people like Robin and Sue is that they lie with impunity and don't even bother to deny the fact - possibly a "neutral" judgement on this would be helpful?)."  Er excuse me,but when did you ever try to look at anyone of a left leaning persuasion objectively? I remind you again that in a previous post you stated that you "Wanted to remove the last vestiges of socialism from the Civic Centre" that's not very objective for someone with no political agenda is it?   As for the lies,lets ask Robin and Sue exactly how long they've known each other? I have to say I don't really understand the number of column inches that have gone into this but hey ho.  "Somebody who professes to be neutral can only retain the moral high ground which comes with that by being such in debate."  I'm not all interested in maintaining the moral high ground,I've always thought of being a neutral as being a bit wimpish,but that's were I find myself at,so that's that."and yet I as a non-party community councillor would appear to be the recipient of 95% of your criticism on this forum.  Can you not see where my doubts are coming from?"  Your flattering yourself a bit there,I think you'll find that AMJA/Tony Stavides/Ian whatever name  he's using today would disagree. The fact is you more than anyone use this forum as a self promotion tool,you have to expect criticism,if it wasn't me it'd be (has been) someone else.I like others got angry that you used this girls sad case to score a point.

Tony Wood ● 6003d

TonyYou have quite clearly stated that I have used "innuendo" against Ann Keen in respect of this particular issue.  My first post makes it absolutely crystal clear that I have done and do not intend to do any such thing.In answer to your question, yes I do believe even that those who identify themselves with one political cause or another should endeavour to consider all the facts objectively (and if you follow all these threads you will have seen that the essence of my problem with people like Robin and Sue is that they lie with impunity and don't even bother to deny the fact - possibly a "neutral" judgement on this would be helpful?).However, with Robin, Sue and others of their ilk one does at least know where they are coming from, and can take account of that when reading their posts.Somebody who professes to be neutral can only retain the moral high ground which comes with that by being such in debate.Finally, it was with a resigned sense of irony that I read your remarks about Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair.  I could have written that paragraph myself, so much do I agree with your comments (other than for the fact that I have never voted for either of them).  Taking your comments at face value there is probably a fag paper's width between us in our healthy disregard for the machinations of party politicians and yet I as a non-party community councillor would appear to be the recipient of 95% of your criticism on this forum.  Can you not see where my doubts are coming from?

Phil Andrews ● 6006d

"Please tell me something.  How do you manage to reconcile the fact that you continue to ignore the very premise on which I raised this subject in the first place, viz. that I take no position on the accuracy or otherwise on the allegations being made against Ann Keen, with your protestations of non-political neutrality?"    Well I suppose that's down to the fact that you think you're a master of innuendo,just say enough to get the punters thinking,but don't actually make a statement,that doesn't leave any wriggle space does it?"It seems to me that anybody who twists an argument in order to make a case against a person who is in the political domain has an agenda."  It seems to me that *any* person who is in the political domain has an agenda,that'll include you then."There is nothing wrong with having an agenda, but for goodness' sake you guys, have the honesty to let other posters know where you are coming from."    OK again, I honestly don't support or vote for any political party,I don't like the lies,temporary bribes and innuendo they use. I did however vote for Mrs.Thatcher the first time she came to power,she made 4 million unemployed,then I voted for Tony Blair the first time he came to power and he started an illegal war that killed about 100,000 innocents."A neutral would consider all the facts.  Only someone with an interest beyond the subject matter itself would be selective as to which facts he or she chooses to consider.  I am confident that this fact will not have escaped the attention of other contributors."    I'm not sure what you're saying here,are you saying that only neutrals should consider all of the facts? Is it OK for people with "interests beyond the subject matter"(ie politicos) not to consider them? Or are you saying that there are neutrals that are selective with the facts (i.e. Me) if so,for instance,where do you think I've done that in this thread?

Tony Wood ● 6006d

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Phil, Manria, Robin & David Giles all have one thing in common - they are 'blinded' by their political affiliations.None of them realise that the average person in the street doesn't care about their petty attempts at oneupmanship and playground squabbles.Tell me, what part of the average person's daily life will be affected by whether Ann Keen, Mary MacLeod or AN Other are elected in May ?.  So I'm told that Mary MacLeod won't claim lots of expenses, great, does that mean she's going to personally give me some money back in lieu of her expenses ? - of course not, so it'll make no difference to my finances whether she's the local MP, or someone else who'll try to claim every single penny they can. It's like the local election of 2006, since then we've had a Tory/ICG administration instead of a Labour one, again, to the average Joe Bloggs in the street the only noticeable difference is that their Council Tax hasn't gone up.  All this waffle about initiatives and power to the community is hot air to the average person in the street - all they care about is (1) keeping outgoings down, and (2) the level of service they get when they do need to contact the Council.  Fortunately on a personal level I never have to contact the Council.  But, and bearing in mind I sat in the Civic Centre for 5 years and saw what went on, I know that in light of hundreds of posts being cut it is certain that the service has to have deteriorated - and on a professional level I do have to contact Hounslow as well as other Councils and whilst I've no doubt the majority of staff do their best, the quality of service I receive is declining (and please don't quote one of those pointless perforance statistics about answering the phone 99.6% of the time within 3 rings - the problem with that is any monkey can be employed to pick up a phone, but if they aren't the person you need or have to put you on hold for 10 minutes to try to get you through to the right person the statistic is complete bull).End of rant :-(

Adam Beamish ● 6007d