Forum Topic

Bus route H91 now runs via Chiswick High Road past the front of Gunnersbury station

Route H91 now runs via Chiswick High Road past the front of Gunnersbury station, instead of via Wellesley Road, "behind” the station.This follows the Borough’s proposal, as part of the Turnham Green Traffic & Transport Scheme, to remove the Wellesley Road “diversion” from route H91, for several reasons:• There are significant numbers of people transferring to this route from the District Line and the Overground at Gunnersbury station to reach workplaces along the A4 Golden Mile. The connection is obviously better at the front of the station.• With the bus lanes along Chiswick High Road, the Chiswick High Road route is generally faster than Wellesley Road for buses, which sometimes get held up along Wellesley Road when there is a lot of traffic in peak hours. • The frequency of route H91 was increased a while ago from 12 to 10 minutes and will hopefully increase still further in a few years as economic activity increases further along the Golden Mile.  Wellesley Road isn’t really suitable for a high frequency bus service.The H91 has now become a double decker route, utilising buses cascaded from another route until new double decker buses (currently on order and funded by a s106 agreement from BSkyB) are introduced in mid 2010.  Meanwhile, route 440 has been extended to Power Road via Wellesley Road.Chris Calvi-FreemanHead of TransportLondon Borough of Hounslow

Chris Calvi-Freeman ● 5958d30 Comments

That's an interesting point Richard. But I wonder if this applies.In London Transport days when Chiswick Works was open, LT had all manner of dispensations from the ministry of transport that did not extend to provincial bus operators. Some 60 Training buses were based here and most were out and about on a selection of local runs as well as runs to garage based routes. Many will remember standing in Chiswick High road waiting for a bus only to be passed by at least a dozen Private buses with driver under instruction!I seem to recall that during my induction at Chiswick that the local area had some sort of special status for bus training and that LT buses were exempt from a whole load of road regulations. I'm pretty sure that many of these are still in effect under TfL.

Michael Brandt ● 5911d

"Does anyone know what regulations cover training buses"Trainees driving buses are allowed to stop at a bus stop clearway (i.e. one with the wide yellow line against the kerb) only for the normal boarding/alighting time, possibly extended to a mximum of 2 minutes to simulate keeping to time.  Parking to discuss the lesson, whether the engine is running or not, is not allowed.The relevant regulation is Section 4(1)(f) of Schedule 19 of the Traffic Signs Regulations 2002, which says that the exceptions to the ban on stopping in bus stops includes:a vehicle driven by a person whilst being trained to drive a bus operating local services who, as part of his training, stops the vehicle within a clearway for no longer than necessary to simulate the stopping of a bus at a bus stop for the purpose of picking up and setting down passengersThe full Schedule 19 is at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/20023113.htm#sch19

Richard Jennings ● 5912d

That does not really answer the question posed.How is ibus of use when at a bus stop? The innovation onboard is great. When new technology complements and enhances that is good all round.But so far, the replacement for countdown is costing a fortune and has compatibility issues with iphones and a few other 4G platforms.Its digital transmissions keep blocking and won't work (rather like the problem with DAB and car radios) So far it's not cheaply solvable. But having two kids who have been 'relieved' of their phones at bus stops (one violently) I dread to think what would happen if they had iphones or blackberries.There are stories in the press almost weekly about crime and gadgets on public transport-mainly buses. So while the pending service which is a useful extra but also not going to be free. I feel it is a rather foolhardy temptation to Chummy.

Michael Brandt ● 5912d

Chris thank very much, the service is back to something more tolerable now, it really is very much appreciated.I don't know weather it is law that some one has to be at the stop,I suspect not Bus regulations would just be operational rules.The absence of a drivers plate on these buses makes it extremely difficult to identify particular drivers. Its bad enough that none of them wear their ID badges when driving. IF one asks for their number to make a complaint they refuse to give it and the plate on the side is often the only way to identify the actual driver: TFL may be able to identify them but I'm fairly sure if you can't, your compliant is going nowhere.Its also worth noting that while one can complain to TFL, individual bus companies have no complaints proceeder so it is almost imposable to complain direct, if you can get their phone number they will simply direct you to the buffer zone that is TFL.Does anyone know what regulations cover training buses, they aren't a problem but they where for a while and may be again they park up for a lot more than 2 minutes leaving the engine running whilst they all (often including the driver) sit in the passenger seats and chat about the lesson, They often seem surprised when asked to turn their stinking and noisy diesel engines off.

Philip Walsh ● 5912d

"ibus is ok if you are actually on a bus. Not a lot of use if you are not. It only provides information to controllers at present "Erm, OK.a) Countdown Mk. 1 is a antique technology that uses basically educated guesswork.b) Maintaining it costs money which is in short supply, particularly when it comes to justifying running *two* bus tracking systemsc) Extending it is impossibled) iBus provides a far better quality data feed.If I were in their shoes I'd go for a system based on iBus data without hesitation, if you've just spent £100m enabling up to the second location tracking of all buses it's ludicrous to reason along the lines of 'and while we're at it, let's keep Countdown, too'."It's simple, works and does not require any gadgetry"So a bus disappearing off down the road having driven dangerously round a corner and nearly hit me, I'm going to run after it and try and find its garage code?  I'm not sure under what circumstances it works, but it's certainly not all of them.  Arguably iBus provides a far better solution, particularly when bus tracking data becomes publicly available (you can FoI for it, presumably at which point all other methods become fairly academic and Head Office can get stuffed). Don't knock gadgetry."most likely would miss the bus from not watching for it."Well, that's up to you - I've just managed the task of catching an E3 while checking my Blackberry without missing the bus or getting mugged, and I didn't feel a particular sense of achievement in the process.  This was at a stop with a cover, but no Countdown, and I'd rather like money put into providing any countdown system there, please, rather than faffing about.

Thomas Barry ● 5912d

So exactly how does ibus help you if you are standing in the rain at a bus stop without a shelter..like South Ealing station?ibus is ok if you are actually on a bus. Not a lot of use if you are not. It only provides information to controllers at present and I am not going to stand in the dark fiddling about with an iphone trying to see what bus is next. It's an invitation to a mugger and most likely would miss the bus from not watching for it.What's wrong with Countdown MK1? I seems to work reasonably well, sure not perfect but it is there at the bus stop and is bettter than now't.It's been missing at the main Brentford stop for some years now and is a real pain.As for identifying a bus, it is harder and the old style system was very good at pinpointing the bus and it's driver. it is just a total of 3 or 4 digits and numbers to note.As an ex LT bus manager who dealt with operational misdemeanors, very few public complaints ever got the newer registrations down properly and many reported incidents got dropped because of the lack of correct detail - especially insurance claims.The bonnet number (fleet number was a better bet than a number plate as very often the number was different on the back to the one at the front (usually caused by engineers swapping panels and not checking. Although that has been clamped down on in recent years.Always a good idea to do a picture but you should see what came in, half the time it was a big red smudge and no detail. So 85 year old established method? It's simple, works and does not require any gadgetry. Which is why head office don't like it. 9/10 reports from this detail are correct it was more like 2/10 for the others.

Michael Brandt ● 5912d

"The budget low tech Countdown system which I know many find of great benefit has been neglected and even removed from many locations. "Er, as you point out, they've just spent five years and north of £100m installing iBus on every bus, which provides far better information on where buses are.  Depending on whether Boris wants to cut the budget any more this should start replacing Countdown this year, several boroughs already have their proposed initial wave of sites online (I'd like to see Hounslow's, actually, if Chris has time).  ActonW3 have a list on their front page story here:http://www.actonw3.com/default.asp?section=community&link=http://nnet-server.com/server/common/eatransport001.htmOf course, like any other development this relies on political backing, and the current mood at the top of City Hall is very anti-bus (don't be fooled by the 'New Routemaster' spin), so let's not expect miracles, eh?As for garage codes and running numbers, what's the point?  I'm fairly clued up on transport and I would instinctively use the numberplate and time to identify a bus doing something stupid, and if you think Joe Public is going to read up on 85 year old bus operating practices I suggest you think again.  He's more likely to take a photo with his mobile, I reckon.

Thomas Barry ● 5913d

I thought everyone knew that you only even get to tender if you're in 'The Lodge'Certainly par for the course in my business!However, quality on the buses and in West London's transport infra-structure seems to be on the slide.I certainly agree that TFL do not seem to be functioning properly in overseeing things.The budget low tech Countdown system which I know many find of great benefit has been neglected and even removed from many locations. The simply nuts idea of it being on your mobile phone..for a daily fee is ludicrous.  Eyes on the road, and around you. Don't we have enough victims through being engrossed with headphones or gadgets?Now I hear that Countdown 2 is too expensive and complex to implement fully so will be rationalised......to the Olympic areas.Removal of via points on Bus destinations so no visual help in finding your way in less familiar parts of London. I-Bus is useless unless you are on the bus..the right bus!The latest ploy is bus companies dropping the 85 year old practice of garage codes and running numbers..This is still used by some of the better operators but is being dropped by the less scrupulous operators. I-Bus is being used as the reason but it only benefits controllers and not those in the fieldBut it remains the simplest and most effective way of identifying a bus.The bus carries a code on both sides of it, for example locally 'V' is Stamford Brook, 'FW' Fulwell, 'S' Shepherds Bush, 'AC' Willesden and 'AV' Hounslow.Then next to this is a yellow plate with a number. This number identifies the working for the day and the crews allocated.All one needs to do is record this and note the location and the time of day.The operating garage has the rest of the data and knows who is driving, which vehicle it is and so on. TfL have been rather slack in making sure that operators adhere to this system. They have simply insisted that each bus has a poster inside carrying it's registration number, but I have noted that some of these do not tally with the buses actual registration. And it's no good if you are not a passenger but want to report a bus for whatever reason - even lost property!One or two operators have also discontinued Fleet numbers or come up with bar code fleet numbers so long that it is highly likely that an error noting it would be of benefit to them. I wonder why?I-Bus is a usefull benefit on the bus but useful too to controllers who now know exactly where each bus is.But this is why so many buses now dump passengers en route and get redirected to short journeys or turned short of the original destination.This plagues the 65.The problem is again TfL failing to oversee a proper contract.The controllers are not TfL but operating company staff. They are under obligation to meet the route tender performance specifications, timings etc.So regulating the service in the way that they do, benefits the statistics but not the passengers who get dumped anywhere or left standing for ages with no bus. I-Bus should make it better but better may cost the operators so it is used to benefit them and their profits rather than the public service.Again, no brains at TfL buses to deal with that one. Or are their a few golfing holidays going around for the savings?

John Norie ● 5914d

You can complain to TfL as much as you like but getting past the customer services and getting a seriously addressed and considered response has progressively got harder since the creation of TfL.When TfL departments cannot even communicate between each other it is pretty easy to see what has gone wrong. It is simply top heavy with political career climbers and the sorts of people who simply would not last five minutes in a private company. The real experts and experienced transport people are very much sidelined and woe betide someone who dares speak their mind on an operational issue. I'm afraid to say I have first hand experience of this at TfL and take my hat off to those who have to deal with them on a daily basis. It takes patience and if you are lucky you will find that there are some very good people there.As for the Bus operating companies, well TfL inexplicably have a rather cosy relationship with several operating companies and these companies seem to get away with murder. Whilst other less favoured companies are constantly put upon even when they run a superior service.The word in the industry most commonly whispered is Freemasons. But that's as far as I will comment. But most would raise an eyebrow at just how many are in the positions that count inside and out of TfL. Maybe purely co-incidence. My business partner (who is also a lodge member) simply descibes it as a business tool, just like a computer.My view is that's fine except when taxpayers money is funding a failing service quality.So if you want to complain, write directly to Peter Hendy, Transport commissioner or the mD of the operating company and cc it to the garage operations manager. It works better than the barrier set up for ordinary mortals!

Anthony Waller ● 5914d

"It's how I know that the bus can only regulate the service at request stops if there is someone at the stop or getting off. I found this out after repeated complaints to TFL."That's not what the 2002 regulations say, and I'm not aware of a more recent change.  Did TfL say it was their rule or one imposed by the law?

Richard Jennings ● 5914d

Thank you Chris.Apologies for not knowing you have been unwell I hope you are better. I have spent many years dealing directly with TFL over the H91 with limited success, It's how I know that the bus can only regulate the service at request stops if there is someone at the stop or getting off. I found this out after repeated complaints to TFL. Previously buses could only stop if requested by a passenger or a passenger to be, some one at the stop with their arm out, now there has to be someone at the stop according to TFL. Nobody at TFL saw fit to inform people along bus routes about these changes to modes of operation / regulations which a came about AFTER I began complaining about the practice and that is why I am asking a council official responsible for transport to represent my issue!

Philip Walsh ● 5914d

Philip I am not "failing to respond".  Apart from having been ill, I do keep a regular eye on these websites but as I mentioned on numerous threads, people who have a problem with London Buses etc are able to raise their concerns directly with TfL instead of expecting Council officers to pick up and represent their issues for them. However, as promised, I raised the issue with London Buses and have received assurances that the bus company, London Sovereign, will ensure that driver behaviour improves.  I hope you will see a difference over the next day or two.

Chris Calvi-Freeman ● 5914d

"Some drivers seem to be totally convinced that they have the right to sit at any stop, request or not for up to two minutes regardless of whether passengers are actually waiting at the  stop or wanting to get off at the stop"They are allowed* to wait for up to two minutes at any stop in order "to maintain the published timetable for the service".  The published timetable says that the service terminates at Power Road, and that it departs from Oxford Road North 2 minutes before arrival at Power Road.  You can check the timetable using the TfL Journey Planner (journey from Oxford Road North to Power Road).* Traffic Signs Regulations 2002, Schedule 19, paragraph 3.

Richard Jennings ● 5915d

Hi Chris another week of buses needlessly parking out side the house has gone by, I have found out why. There appears to be three reasons;1/ Drivers at the end of their shift do not turn left at the top of Oxford Road North (ORN) they turn right instead and completely miss out Power Road. This means they sit and do their paper work at the new terminus in ORN, then take a stroll round the inside of the bus inspecting for anything left by passengers, they do this at 12.50AM and throughout the day.2/ Some drivers seem to be totally convinced that they have the right to sit at any stop, request or not for up to two minutes regardless of whether passengers are actually waiting at the  stop or wanting to get off at the stop, they have not. One driver has stated that he has every right to stop there and is making a point of doing so; Consequently I am getting seriously p****d off with it and him. I suspect he sits there not because he is early for the last stop on the route but because of reason three below.3) I believe that the drivers may be uncomfortable with the Power Road stop as its isolated and that is why they are needlessly 'adjusting their timetable' in the residential area of ORN as opposed to the industrial area of Power Road.I have e.mailed this to you,as you seem to be failing to respond to replies to your posting on the TW8 site.

Philip Walsh ● 5915d

10.10am the front windows seem to come alive as they rattle loudly in their frame, ADL 30 has arrived at the stop at least some ones getting off unlike the last bus which had a 2 minute time adjustment, like that's important when your in the residential area one stop from the terminus in the non residential area of Power road. the driver of ADL 30 then leave his seat and wonders around the bus looking to see if anything has been left, presumably. Meanwhile the bus sits pumping poisonousness crap out the exhaust on my doorstep, its not the first time this driver has done this inspection here at this stop, instead of the terminus where no one lives.

Philip Walsh ● 5917d

12.51am the ceilings falling in, oh no its a bus at the stop, at a guess its ADL 32 could be ADL 30 but who knows, I can't see from here, in the dark; but I can see nobody gets on or off.At least it's a Friday and still half term so my partner doesn't have to be up by 6am.These buses appear to have a engine cover lock, which means if you have an engine fire or accident you can't turn the diesel/ engine pump off! Where were they made again? and which side of EU membership / design specification was it?

Philip Walsh ● 5918d

Thanks Chris,I'm not sure the operators have taken much notice, if they have then they have failed to pass the information on to their drivers. It's 8.51pm, the house shakes , I'm upstairs and look out the window; yes it's ADL 32 pulling to a stop. Nobody gets on nobody gets off,the bus just sits engine running. Then the lights go off and again the bus just sits, engine running.I go out the drivers sitting in the dark having a drink of water from a bottle.I mention to the driver once he opened the doors when he could and when he couldn't sit at the bus stop (I had told this driver the same thing a few days back, at 12.50am as he did his paper work). On this occasion I was told that he could sit their for two minutes if he wanted and that I wasn't allowed to tell him what he was allowed to do. I was also told I was lucky he was finishing as he would have stayed longer. I informed him that if did I would turn his engine off myself. I cant supply the drivers number ,if he was wearing it, I could not see it in the dark and as I stated before these buses appear to have no driver number plate on the side of these buses. How are people expected to identify a driver in the case of complaint.I am considering making a recording of a day in the life of bus noise to put things into perspective and would like to send you a copy, if there is an address to send it to

Philip Walsh ● 5919d

PhilipPower Road is definitely the terminus of the recently extended route 440.  Passengers can alight and board at that stop.  There should be no reason for buses to sit at Oxford Road.  I will relay you comments about this and the noise emitted by individual buses to the bus operator.

Chris Calvi-Freeman ● 5930d

Hi Chris I thought I would get in touch direct regarding the 440 bus service and how it is working out from our perspective, unfortunately having typed it out in word I couldn't paste it onto the sites e.mail facility, so I've put it here.You are aware the H91 route had become a problem to us as a family, infringing on our lives ever increasingly since its first introduction as a bus route.Its 12.50 am on the morning of Friday 5th Feb and ADL 32 has just ‘juddered’ to a halt, despite there being no one on the bus and no one at the stop. One always knows when ADL 32 arrives, it sounds like the roof has fallen in and the whole house vibrates. On this occasion I went out to find the driver doing some paper work, engine running, I informed him he should book his bus in for maintenance, and reminded him that he had no right to be using the stop, for the reasons already mentioned. I received a look of contempt and got the doors shut in my face, the driver did however leave. This is not the only one of these buses that seems unnecessarily noisy; ADL 27 makes the kitchen window rattle in the frame and I can actually feel the vibrations in my body, the window in question is at the back of the house, 40 ft away from the stop; at least two others, I believe ADL 30? & ADL 31?  are also worryingly noisy; I’m not sure I would happy to travel  on them.There have also been a problem with passengers being put off at this stop despite the terminus point being Power Road, One elderly and possibly drunk passenger on a last bus was very loud in his annoyance, as was the driver in his response. It is of course possible the man was put off simply because he was drunkThis leads me to the question; is there a bus stop or ‘terminus’ in Power Road or is the term ‘terminus’ simply incorrect, Power road simply being a turning around point.I’m not totally negative about the route change; mostly it’s been an improvement, at least for us, from our perspective.

Philip Walsh ● 5931d

I don't know if the ideality meets the practicality. No sooner is a bus buggie accessible than new bigger buggies appear that block an entire bus up.Ironically, the old folding pushchairs of the 50's and 60's were designed to constraints that would allow fit on an old type bus, all UK trains and so on. Then the McLaren came along and was even smaller and lighter. But the latest stuff trendy and hugely expensive flies completely in the face of common sense of the past.My wife insisted on a very expensive Bugaboo. I said nothing as she slowly realised how useless and awkward it is. Then one day came home with a 1973 McLaren that cost 75p in a jumble sale. Offer her £750 and she still won't part with it!Funny about the Routemaster, I do a little bit of voluntary work with a couple of disabled groups. What do they always want to do? Go for a ride on a Routemaster. I've done that day out more than any other by miles.

Anthony Waller ● 5956d

As stated the dirt on these buses was not fresh splash dirt but looked like the sooty filth from its engine exhaust. I may have been a little premature with my hopes over the regulating of service, some still seem to feel the need to stop for no reason, like the particularly noisy one at 12.45 last night. I looked for the drivers plate but didn't see one, maybe it was too dark.

Philip Walsh ● 5956d

I'd have the Routemaster over modern buses in any weather. I love using those Heritage Routemaster routes.

Neil Chippendale ● 5957d

MichaelYou may be right about the seats but I disagree with your comment about accessibility.  The low-floor wide-door buses allow easy access for elderly people, people with children, buggies, shopping etc, not just wheelchairs.And I wouldn’t want to be in Routemaster in this cold weather!!

Chris Calvi-Freeman ● 5957d

In the main I think the bus services are much improved over the last 5 years,But too many aspects are a bit overblown. The much vaunted disability access really only addressed a minority wheelchair users but at the expense of very many  other disabilities who have lost out. Hearing aid users are tortured by the electronic beeps that replaced the ting of a bell. The electronic noises on bus and tubes often causes reverberation on several mainstream hearing aids. The lack of a bell cord running along the same side of every bus as once was was a boon to those with eyesight problems. Now they have to grope to find a button.But the most retrograde aspect in my view (and definitely the view of my back!!) are the infuriatingly poor seats.

Michael Brandt ● 5957d

Most of London’s buses are pretty filthy externally at present - something to do with snow slush and well-salted roads.  But 99% of them are running!As for the decline in standards, London’s buses are some of the newest on average in the UK. Service frequencies and spans of operation have increased and routes have been extended.  Patronage has increased in the face of declining bus patronage elsewhere in the UK and our ongoing love affair with the private car.All the fleet is low floor and wheelchair accessible (except the heritage Routemasters) and most buses have CCTV.  But I agree there is no London Transport roundel, and some have advertising. Oh well.

Chris Calvi-Freeman ● 5957d

Even with the last years of LTE standards were dropping, just look at pictures of LT buses in the 50's, 60's and early 70's, Pristine clean inside and out and the crews looked smart and dignified in proper uniforms that commanded respect.But I think it was Mr Brandt who pointed out how poor standards have become with new buses in terms of comfort and design. It's as if the sloppy turnout standards are now inbuilt. Even the livery of plain red is dull, no London Transport roundel, just some obscure naff corporate logo and no London Pride.Such a shame.

Anthony Waller ● 5957d

Many years ago when we had LTE and a regulated proper bus service it was a disciplinary matter for a driver to take a dirty vehicle out of the bus garage. With the free for all we have had for some years many of the standards have slipped to an alarming degree - this being just one of them.

Vanessa Smith ● 5957d

Well I for one, am pleased. The H91 used to stop out side my house and has been a bone of contention ever since it started running, due to the detrimental effects it had on my families life , peace and privacy, the 440 now stops at the same stop but due to it being the last but one stop there should be no need for Regulating of service which caused so many problems with the H91 in the last year.One thing I have noticed though is the state of some of the 440 buses running on this route; some (one in particular) that is far to noisy and others; especially the one I saw this morning are absolutely filthy on the out side; too dirty to even see into. This didn't look like dirt accumulated in the snowy conditions of the last week but months worth of sooty grime.

Philip Walsh ● 5957d

A very good move and long overdue as well as the 440 running on to Power road.It's a shame it was renumbered the H91 as the then 91 route was long established and was one of the first routes to use the prototype Routemaster bus in 1956. The H prefix does not really work as it was never completed as envisaged and it is confusing when some H routes don't go into Hounslow town but straddle different districts.The route is now using the prototype batch of Scanias that the operator has built up a large fleet in recent months. They are Polish built and not bad apart from the seats, a noisy heater (that actually works) and some erratic handrail arrangements.I'm surprised that new buses are being purchased so soon as I would have thought these one will be good for at least 7 years.

Michael Brandt ● 5958d

A very good move and long overdue as well as the 440 running on to Power road.It's a shame it was renumbered the H91 as the then 91 route was long established and was one of the first routes to use the prototype Routemaster bus in 1956. The H prefix does not really work as it was never completed as envisaged and it is confusing when some H routes don't go into Hounslow town but straddle different districts.The route is now using the prototype batch of Scanias that the operator has built up a large fleet in recent months. They are Polish built and not bad apart from the seats, a noisy heater (that actually works) and some erratic handrail arrangements.I'm surprised that new buses are being purchased so soon as I would have thought these one will be good for at least 7 years.

Michael Brandt ● 5958d