Forum Topic

Dropped kerbs, Clifden Road

I recently received a parking ticket for 'parking in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway' - the dropped kerb outside the gate at Clifden Court. I avoided parking here for ages due to the dropped kerb (not in front of a drive but a footpath) until Hounslow painted all the white lines on Clifden Road - including marking out all the drives - which I thought were meant to clarify the current restricted areas. So I (wrongly) assumed that no white or yellow lines = it is fine to park here, and I was (perhaps foolishly) encouraged by the fact that there is more or less always someone parked there.Apparently that isn't the case, and people continue to park there and are occasionally ticketed so I thought I'd say something here in hopes that it might save someone £50.

Holly Hodges ● 5897d21 Comments

Amen to that.I too feel that challenging on principle is a good idea, but only if I feel there is a reasonable chance of winning. I was quite incensed by this ticket, but I just thought there was no chance of changing it.

Holly Hodges ● 5877d

You're probably, right but I am so incensed by parking tickets that I truly believe they should be challenged in principle if for no other reason than to gum up the works!  Let's hope we don't get any more tickets for a very long time.

Bernadette Paul ● 5878d

Congratulations Bernadette! I am so pleased for you!Because of what Richard said, I decided not to appeal. If I felt there was a realistic chance of having the penalty notice cancelled I would have done, but I think a dropped kerb by the flats would have been hard to fight.

Holly Hodges ● 5878d

Just thought you may like to know that this morning I heard from L.B. Ealing that they have finally cancelled the penalty notice charge I received back in October.  So you see, it can pay to be stubborn and argumentative.  I can honestly say that if I had lost the appeal I stilldon't think I would have paid the ticket.  Holly I hope you appealed yours?

Bernadette Paul ● 5879d

I'd settle on them just doing the job properly. I'll successfully appealed the last 4 tickets my staff received, but only by taking it to PATAS. Especially with all these new cameras,they seem to have a "ticket anything that stops anywhere" policy. Any appeals to them seem to be automatically be rejected, and only when you appeal to PATAS.....surprise, surprise they cave in.I've no doubt they are making a lot of money from innocent motorists.

Nick Jenkins ● 5894d

Well there's no disputing that Nick, probably one of the most obvious statements I've recently read, but as I continually say the choice is simple - either accept the status quo and be pleased at a 0% Council Tax rise, or bring back a more relaxed/sympathetic parking enforcement regime and watch your Council Tax rocket.  Personally I'll happily take the former, and will continue to be careful about where I park.

Adam Beamish ● 5894d

"of course they are monitored on numbers/productivity"Monitoring on numbers/productivity is rather different from imposing a quota, and losing your job if you fail the achieve the target, which is what Gordan alleged re Hounslow.

Richard Jennings ● 5894d

"Not entirely true as I recall, and even if it was what happens in Westminster doesn't necessarily happen in Hounslow."Its a massive revenue generator nowadays, of course they are monitored on numbers/productivity and not common sense.

Nick Jenkins ● 5894d

It's not just Hounslow - I got my ticket from Ealing.  I suppose the warden could have been checking for tax as opposed to parking infringements but I don't know why there was even a warden in the road I parked in.  It has no parking restrictions whatsoever and no lines of any sort.  What it did have was absolute surfeit of dropped kerbs since approx 18 of the 28 houses in the road has a dropped kerb plus the additional council constructed ones (4 x 1) on each corner.  How on earth could anyone pushing a pram, wheelchair or anything else be seriously inconvenienced in a road like that?  Even the dropped kerb I parked alongside ran past my car and past the width of the house next door so anyone could pass in front of my car unhindered.  Yet I still got a ticket which I am still in the process of appealing.I would suggest that targets are an issue and wardens are wandering further afield and hoping for any sort of pathetic infringement to slap tickets around.  It is absolutely outrageous that so many people are now criminalised for something as basic as parking a car.  Clearly some people do obstruct traffic or cause a nuisance but much of the time this is simply not the case and it is purely a question of revenue.  After all if we are going to employ millions of wardens we have to fine millions of people to pay for them.

Bernadette Paul ● 5894d

Not entirely true as I recall, and even if it was what happens in Westminster doesn't necessarily happen in Hounslow.

Adam Beamish ● 5894d

A fly on the wall documentary a few months ago followed an Enforcement Officer (Westminster I think) from recuitment to leaving!It clearly showed there was an unwritten rule on target numbers per day that were monitored and followed up by management.

Nick Jenkins ● 5895d

"I think the real problem is the quota requirement imposed on Hounslow's Enforcement Officers - common sense cannot apply when these officers are obliged to achieve a target number of tickets or lose their jobs."Could you please provide me the evidence of this either here on the forum or using the PM facility so I can raise with the Head of Parking at LBH?

Paul Fisher ● 5895d

I think the real problem is the quota requirement imposed on Hounslow's Enforcement Officers - common sense cannot apply when these officers are obliged to achieve a target number of tickets or lose their jobs.

Gordan Green ● 5895d

"I am aware that a dropped kerb shouldn't be obstructed but it was after the white lines were painted that I thought that this indicated that it was no longer in use."This is another item that is missing from the Highway Code.  A white line across a vehicle entrance to a house is there to draw attention to the dropped kerb and to discourage inconsiderate parking.  You are allowed to park there if you are the occupier of the house or if you have his/her permission.  It's more flexible than a yellow line, which would not allow the occupier to park there, and would need an accompanying sign.Why did Hounslow paint the white lines?  I don't know.  Maybe they had complaints from residents about their entrances being blocked.  I imagine it would have been a problem particularly when Brentford were playing at home.

Richard Jennings ● 5896d

Richard, thanks for that. I would hate to waste my time on this if that's the case. (Okay, this next part is just a rant, so feel free to look away now.) It may not be any basis for an appeal, but out of curiosity, why did Hounslow bother with the expense of painting all the white lines along the other dropped kerbs and not this one? I am aware that a dropped kerb shouldn't be obstructed but it was after the white lines were painted that I thought that this indicated that it was no longer in use. That was in fact why I parked there - maybe not legitimate grounds for appeal but certainly legitimate from a common sense point of view. I was not (and am not) aware that Clifden Court was sheltered housing. Grrr. Putting this behind me now. Aaand - rant over.

Holly Hodges ● 5896d

"This law as far as I know only came into being in June last year."That's when the enforcing legislation changed, but it's been in force since 2004 under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003."where I parked was a dropped kerb for the benefit of the garage AND I must emphasise this was a disused derelict garage attached to a derelict house" It's important that your appeal makes it clear that the garage was attached to a house, and that the house was derelict and unoccupied.  You can only park blocking a driveway if it is a vehicle entrance to a single residential property and you have the consent of the occupier.  Clearly there was no occupier to give consent, and the adjudicator will hopefully take a common-sense view on this.In Holly's case, however, it was a dropped kerb opposite a pedestrian entrance to Clifden Court.  Parking there has been illegal since 2004, though I'm not sure how you're supposed to know that.  There is no indication in the Highway Code that it is a legal requirement rather than just good advice not to park there.  Updates to traffic laws like this should really be notified annually to all drivers when renewing their vehicle licence.However, "ignorance of the law is no defence", and I don't think Holly has any grounds for appeal that the council or an adjudicator would accept.  Clifden Court looks like a sheltered/elderly housing development, where the provision of a dropped kerb might be quite important for infirm residents.

Richard Jennings ● 5896d

That I think is my argument.  This law as far as I know only came into being in June last year.  The government guidance is seems to be that people should not be ticketed after all lots of people park across their own drives and would not therefore be obstructing anyone but themselves (if you see what I mean).  I think the point is whether the dropped kerb is there as a vehicle crossover (installed by the owner of the driveway) or whether it really is a "pram kerb" which would probably have been constructed by the local authority for that purpose i.e. wheelchairs, prams etc.  I don't know which it is in Clifden Road but I do know where I parked was a dropped kerb for the benefit of the garage AND I must emphasise this was a disused derelict garage attached to a derelict house so I doubt the owner specifically requested that I should get done for onstructing his garage.  Like you Holly, I think I would rather chop my own head off than deliberately park anywhere where I would knowingly get a ticket but it seems to me that is just about anywhere now.  Everyday in everyway the councils find a new way of robbing us.I work for solicitors and although parking is not their speciality they were unaware of the new parking legislation re; dropped kerbs.  One of the more senior lawyers did feel it was a bit outrageous to be issuing tickets were there was no signage warning that you may be liable to attract a ticket.  Can you imagine however how many signs would have to be put up if they were to warn against parking in front of every dropped kerb?

Bernadette Paul ● 5897d

Thanks for that Bernadette. I am considering whether or not to appeal. I did avoid the space until the road was marked, so I am slightly aggrieved about being misled by the lack of markings, but my impression (now, after admittedly doing only a little bit of research) is that a dropped kerb trumps everything. I guess I have to decide if I want to spend the next six months embroiled in this kind of argument.I am an intelligent, law-abiding person and I have no interest in trying my luck with parking where I shouldn't (I am pathologically adverse to parking fines) so I feel really caught out by this - like it is kind of sneaky.

Holly Hodges ● 5897d

http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/index/transport_and_streets/parking/street_parking.htm#kerbparkingThe council do have rules on this, although the enforcement seems rather random. People regularly park in front of the garages on Albany Road and never seem to get ticketed.

Ian Fillingham ● 5897d

I know exactly where you mean and I have seen cars being ticketed there once before on a football Saturday.  I saw a car parked close to there at the weekend which had a clamp and a big notice but I couldn't work out why.  Just saw it quick as I drove past.Anyway, I received a ticket last October in L.B. Ealing for exactly the same offence except I was parked adjacent to a dropped kerb which is the entrance to a derelict garage.  I appealed the ticket.  By the time Ealing had refused the appeal the offence had changed from a dropped kerb to a "pram ramp".  It is currentl awaiting the appeal to be heard by the independent whatnots so who knows.  I admit I was obstructing a disused garage but I was not obstructing a pram ramp (whatever that may be) because the dropped kerb was constructed by whoever owned the garage.This is a new law which was introduced in June last year and I found and printed off the government's guidlines re: dropped kerb parking which pretty much states that you should not receive a ticket unless you are obstructing a driveway/forecourt etc,. and are asked to do so by the owner of the driveway/forecourt etc,. Clearly government guidlines cut no ice with parking attendants.  Where I received my ticket also had no signs, lines or anything else to prohibit parking it was not in a CPZ and caused no obstruction to anyone but the owner of the garage.  I specifically requested Ealing to confirm whether the owner of the garage had specifically requested that may car was ticketed but this was conveniently ignored.  So everyone be warned, parking attendants are running out of really legitimate targets and are now moving on to even more spurious offences.  Pretty soon we will all be fined for getting up in the morning and going to bed at night.Appeal your ticket - even if you lose it gives you about 6 months grace before paying it!

Bernadette Paul ● 5897d

Holly Hodges ● 5897d