Forum Topic

Tottenham Riot

It is a tragedy that the grief felt by Mr & Mrs Duggan for the loss of a son  has been overwhelmed by the dreadful actions of mindless young men &  young women who set fire to buildings,police cars, a bus also looted shops even took a cash machine out and robbed it. The criminal element saw a main chance and took over a peaceful demonstration for there own ends.Did the police initially mishandle the situation yes of course they did they should have shown the Duggan family respect and spoken with them,explained that the investigation ongoing was into both there son's death and the police by independent investigators. Because of there thoughtlessness a whole community has suffered, we have homeless families who could have died in these fires, also businesses who have set up in Tottenham and have been burnt down, the question is will they risk it again? would you?It is no good blaming cut's and jobloss, all over the UK we face this on a daily basis, do we resort to the kind of violence that was perpetrated by these gang's, no we don't. I must admit that I did wonder why? the police & fire brigade did not control the violence and put out the fires, however the police are damned either way, 350 police officer's were allocated if more had been given the violence would have been said to be  because of Police brutality, whichever way you look at it the police are damned.What we must not forget is that this young man was alleged to be armed and allegedly shot at police, this does not excuse his death however we keep a proper perspective until the independent investigation is completed.

Dawn Hardy ● 5408d147 Comments

If I were to say black you would say white, if I were to say wrong you would say right, you mention Somali and yet fail to mention your disgust at this man being handed 8000 pounds per month for rent, this outrageous amount of money is besides family allowance plus any other benefit that he might be getting. Would this be the disengagement that you are speaking about.What is your view of the Romanian Gypsy family who squatted and trashed Julia High's home to the extent of 40000 pounds damages plus what they stole Laptop, Camera etc,this women was away for one weekend visiting her elderly parents, they were evicted only after she proved who she was to the Court and applied for the Court Order herself to have them evicted,NO official help.These people were removed by Police but not charged (how can this be) they then squatted in another house 2 streets away where they are still living to do exactly the same thing.Are these people disengaged, is it okay for them to do this when and whenever they decide,why are they here anyway, why because it is a freebie society for some and not for the majority,however unless the populace start to get answers and actions then heaven help us at the next General Election because neither Labour Conservative nor Liberal will get a look in the BNP will get in heaven help us if they do. We need Border Control and we need it now incidentally Ms High works on Border Control poor woman her life's work and possession's gone on a whim.You say it does not matter what they wear or whether a Somali family are living in a big mansion on our tax contributions there speaks a politician because it does matter to all the hard working taxpayers out there.It is so easy to blame the Coalition about closing down kids centers however it isn't them really is it, if Camden can so wastefully spend this money on just one family then it could just as easily keep the kids centers open, perhaps the TV Media should take this point up, check all Councils to give us a complete picture of how they completely waste our money on a daily,weekly and monthly basis..

Dawn Hardy ● 5397d

Dawn, Phil is describing honestly a gradual separation of values within the community. Too many young people are graduating towards an unsatisfactory lifestyle which neither serves them nor their community; no-one gets anything out of it except people paid to counter it; so, a problem. For them a life of unsocial behaviour and criminality, for the rest a less than pleasant existence surrounded by threats and insecurity. The policing of problem communities seems undecided today as to whether to follow the American approach (make them pay; target them; destroy them etc) or Robert Peels brilliant concept of its day that "the police are the public and the public are the police" and should serve the role of servants to the public to maintain the common good. I like the sound of the Peelian way and something about the American way makes me worry that we will just be putting in place all the ingredients for a disenfranchised and eventually angry section of the community; it's a no-win situation and is much harder to undo if it develops further than it has here already.The bonds have to be formed within the community; that means new engagement, a move away from the separations our communities contain.I have to admit it's difficult for me to see how I could change my approach, in a positive and conciliatory fashion, to some of the scum I see hanging around our streets nowadays but I also appreciate that if I remain fixed in that approach, everything stays the same. Something has to give a little, something has to inspire a better sense of community.On this forum we discuss such things but we all take extreme or at least very adversarial views. However, the fact that Dawn now doesn't lump me in with the rest of you is progress methinks.Ha ha ha

Ian Silver ● 5398d

Well well you did not disappoint me, I make no excuses for the mayhem and looting it was done purely for greed and the thrill no more no less. If you had studied the post a little bit longer you would have realised that I was trying to show how you yourself had excused along with Mr Andrews also Mr Boucher the behaviour of those thugs on the premise that those youngsters commited those crimes through not having enough. Well Camden can apparently waste 98000 pounds per year alone just on rent for one family and then complain about the lack of funds that government allows.(you and I pay in our taxes for this.)As for Sharon Shoesmith, she was a sacrificial lamb brought about by political correctness gone wrong, this women was the Chair under her she had Managers,Supervisors who were responsible for the staff. This dreadful crime went on all through that little boys life 97 Broken Bones numerous other dreadful things, where was the social workers why? did they not insist they enter the house, why? did not the Doctors at hospitals report such injuries to the Police. It was all a disgrace however one person should not have been made to take the blame the responsibility is much wider.What did disappoint me was the fact that you mentioned Ms.Shoesmith but neglected to mention that one of the bar-stewards who literally beat this young child to death came out of Prison last week after serving only 4 years,how cheap is a young life, where is your outrage for this injustice!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5399d

Many have asked us to find an explanation for the mayhem last week, they will not just admit it was the thrill & greed.Read this it might just might give just a little insight into disenfranchisement & disengagement.A family of asylum seekers has moved into a 2 million pound home in one of the country's most exclusive neighbourhoods at we the taxpayers expense.Unemployed Saeed Khaliif is being handed almost 8000 pounds a month to pay the rent on his house, one of the most expensive ever to be paid on housing benefit. The Somail refugee demanded "he demanded" to be moved into the 6 bedroom property in Hampstead with his wife and their 8 children.They moved from Coventry where they also had a 6 bedroom property however that cost we taxpayers only 1000 per month, the move was because they wanted to be near friends and relatives in London.Government guidelines state anyone eligible for housing benefit can claim for a private property anywhere in the country. Housing Benefit was recently capped at 400 pounds per week, they can claim more because they moved there before the change came about. Was not Camden one of the districts that mayhem took place? perhaps 96000 pounds per year on benefit payment for just RENT should be looked at quickly. Mr Khaliif spoke through one of his children who acted as interpretor said"This is my house. We've got every right to live her" he also said that he had not worked since arriving in the UK 3 years ago and admitted he was on benefits.What the hell is going on, we have no money none at all and we are paying out exorbitant sums for people who do nothing to contribute to our Society. Ed give us your thoughts on this.

Dawn Hardy ● 5399d

So what do you suggest they be given to encourage them to become a part of our society?I am going to cause a furor now however I have to say what I think, Labours 13 years in power have an awful lot to answer for, our Police were and are afraid to do their duty because they are so often accused of inappropriate behaviour, putting a felons arm up his back results in them being taken to court for being over zealous, compensation is and was automatically paid out and still it goes on. Political Correctness has ruined our workforce a Manager can no longer chastise a lazy worker they will be taken before a tribunal and have to pay thousands of pounds out.Schools can no longer cane pupils for bad behaviour(I certainly had a few of 6 of the best it did me no harm, in fact it hurt so much that I didn't muck up again) they exclude them for a few days, the kids of course don't mind they are having a holiday, we have to go back to where pupils are not excluded however they must relearn the rule that teacher knows best. We spend 14 to 15 years at school if we don't go onto Uni,it plays a large part in who we become.If we are allowed to run havoc at school what chance do we have to become solid citizens absolutely none, we have to know that there are boundaries and that we must not overstep them if we become used to these rules than 9 out of 10 will turn out right. Also parents have to take their homes and children back, kids need to know that they are loved that means being told NO on many occasions, kids might not like it, however they will begin to realize that their parents actually do care about them and what they are doing out of their sight.We can no longer have a preferential treatment in our society because of fear of being accused of something or other. In my day if you didn't do your job as you should you were sacked no excuse harsh maybe, but we all worked our butts off to learn and better ourselves, we had no one to run to because we were being discriminated against. It doesn't and shouldn't matter what colour you are rules are there for all of us to adhere to.

Dawn Hardy ● 5399d

Phil, whilst I do understand what you are saying, we cannot put this down to either black or white, that is wrong we cannot also put it down to feelings of disengagement from our society. Show me a youngster with holes in their shoes, they all wear 150 pound sets of trainers, show me a youngster with holes in their jeans they all wear 100 pound a pair hanging down to their knees showing their bums. These youngsters do not have just 1 mobile they have 2. How do they afford it I can't can you?The explanation for the looting and rioting was opportunity, a families grief(shameful)when you have 4 youths boasting on Sky TV that they knew a bloke who knew a bloke with a van and were given a shopping list,whereby when the double door transit van was full the driver took it to a premises unloaded it and then went back to fill the van up again and again,when asked if they were ashamed for doing it they laughed and replied NO they would do it again.How can that behaviour possibly be excused as disengagement from society, it's bloody greed no other name for it.Youngsters if they are out of work surely get job seekers allowance plus other benefits,an awful lot of people who do need help do not get a look in because they try to help themselves and are just above the threshold. Look at the young couple who were burnt out in Tottenham all they had were the clothes that they were wearing a mobile and their car keys, they ran for their lives and the rioters tried to stop their car. They work and because they work they are already being penalized they now have to pay 200 pounds a week for a 1 bedroom apartment the burnt out one was 150 pound per wk,where is the justice in this.These youngsters lost everything. There are far more people in the same boat, so when I am expected to find an explanation I do and I have PLAIN GREED that's all.What is the point in having a Public Inquiry that will cost millions of pounds when that money could be better spent setting up schemes to encourage these little darlings to participate and learn something constructive. The real problem is they think why should I try and get a job for 11000 a year(that's all my grandsons earn working legitimately but they do it) when I get paid better on benefit.Perhaps if our Politicians were to work together on this then maybe it would give the right impression to youngsters.Thank you for the kind wishes, 47 years great years today, wouldn't change a thing, good times and bad it makes a marriage.

Dawn Hardy ● 5400d

I watched both David Cameron and Ed Milliband on the TV this morning, I liked some of Mr Camerons ideas the one about amending that ridiculous elf n safety law also trying to help disengaged families to come together once again, he also praised the Police which of course they had earned.Whilst watching good old Eddy I lost count of the number of times he used "I" He trashed the idea of giving kids back their childhood by amending the "elf n safety" law, I mean why would young girls want to play skipping and young boys want to kick a football and why does a classroom assistant have to ring a parent instead of an ambulance when a youngster has broken an arm because of this cursed ruling that's why.He also wants a Public Inquiry where these little looters can meet with the people that they have stolen from and burnt out so that they can explain just how disaffected they are with our society. When we have a millionaires daughter, a uni grad, a teaching assistant as well as these poor disillusioned disadvantaged young thugs, why do we need a public inquiry it was just a thrill and profit no other excuse is acceptable. Most of these people didn't have just one phone they had two and that was before they nicked more.David Lammy said it how it was criminality, come to think of it he related most to his constituents he would be an ideal party leader.He actually amazed me when he inferred that this government was the cause, now when you consider that the coalition won the election when May 2010 what's that 16 month's and everything has fallen to pieces since then and he want's to find out why?Well let's see, how about that Labour left us bankrupt not difficult to grasp when we only have to remember Mandy Mandelson("Lord" now what did that chap do to earn this privilege)this is the same chap who arranged for the American company Kraft to borrow 7 Billion Pounds from us without our permission to buy Cadbury Chocolate they needed 11 Billion however they managed to get 4 Billion elsewhere, good old Mandy arranged the loan they brought Cadbury closed it down 600 people redundant to reopen in a more economic climate in Poland.This is the same Labour Party who sold off our Gold Reserves whilst in government at well below Market Value and for what, because Gordon Brown could do it and he wanted to prove a point to Tony Blair, this is the same party who took us into a war with lies, who then allowed our troops to get killed with inferior kit. Come up with good ideas don't make a party political broadcast out of people loss.

Dawn Hardy ● 5400d

Sara we have 1800 PSCO's in the capital, we also have 16,200 Police Officers then we also have 16,100 Police Staff whatever that constitutes as you can see we have 100 "police staff" less than active police,why? is that and what do they do, now I can understand David Cameron saying that he wants to reduce police numbers however he needs to be more explicit on his meaning, do we keep our active police force whilst reducing police staff if so this is possible, but only by explaining exactly what these police staff actually do?Dee and I gave a covenant 6 months back and signed a paper that enable the charity to get more than we give, maybe the law has changed since then.  Why? is it bonkers, kids spend more time learning technical capabilities than the 3 R's, money spent on computers could be better used.My husband and I along with the majority of the population already pay 20% Income Tax why on earth should we pay more,you have taken my post apart(good)however you disappoint me by not arguing why? Can you and will you explain to me exactly what these Quangos have achieved,what good have they actually done for our communities. I remember a few years back in Labour time when a young man who was earning 3000 pounds a day resigned from a quango because he did nothing all day. Let's do away with them or explain to me why? we should not.Don't just criticize my post, show me where I have gone wrong and I will listen!!  Because I have always voted Conservative I am not allowed to criticize what I do not agree with, thank goodness we are still a democracy where I am able to criticize without fear of imprisonment. Perhaps this is what has been wrong with Politics both past and present we are expected to except indoctrination without a word. Well I am a pain in the butt for all politicians when they are not coming up to scratch.The point is money can be found it just takes moving it in the right direction for the right reason.

Dawn Hardy ● 5400d

Instead of trying to find out whose to blame for these happenings, why? isn't anyone coming up with a possible solution, obviously money is very tight okay then let's try to find way's to find this money that is needed.Firstly I have to say that I am disappointed in David Cameron one of his promises before the election was to get rid of Quango's, unfortunately this has not happened indeed we appear to have more. I resent someone being paid 550k & 350k for sitting on their behinds for 2 to 3 day's per week and getting no solution's.Just how much do we pay out for these in one year 5-6 billion pounds, that money could be better spent elsewhere in the UK, don't think about it let's do it get rid of the Quango's now!!! after all what exactly have they achieved since their conception, I really would like to know the benefits of them to our society. Why? do school's have computer's from Primary to Senior, let's go back to reading, riting n rithmatic, the use of a computer means that you do not have to learn how to spell or write correctly because it automatically spell check's for you. Let kid's be kid's for goodness sake in Primary boy's are not allowed to play football, girl's are not allowed to use skipping ropes because of that dreaded elf n safety law.Classroom assistants no longer put a plaster on an injury for fear of being accused of doing something bad.We also need to give Teacher's back the power of Discipline in school's, they get treated disgracefully and have to put up with it, because of those stupid amendment's to the "right's" act introduced by Tony Blair, it is time for all Politicians to look at it and amend it greatly, now is the time for action no debate is needed, this is a very large factor in the breakdown of our Society, it starts at Primary School and continues until they leave, if they are not taught on a daily basis, good sense,respect and learning then we will indeed have more of these disgraceful day's.We have cut back's in Education that are not necessary by just going back to basics, getting rid of computer's so much more can be achieved by the money saved on them, at the moment kid's are leaving school unable to spell some even how to write properly. This is disgraceful and should not be happening.We need Police on our streets, why do we have so many 9 to 5 Special Constables what? do they earn 25k a year almost as much as a Policeman, and they do not have the responsibility or authority, get rid of them or train them up, either way the money saved could be better utilized in Policing our Community as it should be, Commissioner Tim Godwin(Acting) did an outstanding job during the mayhem, it should be seriously considered in making him full time Police Commissioner after all he was there he stood with his team, he has earned his place.Too much talk and not enough will be done to improve our situation. These riots were brought into being for the thrill and profit of them, we have rich and poor kids and adults doing the unthinkable, we do not need to spend millions of pounds asking why? it happened lets deal with it constructively.It would be a good start by the 400 richest people in the UK to donate 1 million pounds each to assist in training for youngster's all over the UK, it would of course be tax deductible if given as a covenant it would be worth a lot more. Politicians should ensure that any businesses that are sold off to foreign interests are actually kept in the UK and not taken oversees thereby saving more people being made redundant.Break the contract to Germany regarding Bombardier the Train Builder's again a saving of 1400 jobs. The solution is out there, get together forget which side you are on, we need to bring the pride back into our Nation it is up to all Politicians to help in doing this right now!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5401d

Water Cannon's being used would have most likely curtailed the fires and looting that ran through our street's for 3 terrible day's and night's, however the use of plastic bullets must be a big NO! police have had this power for a long time and have quite rightly decided not to use it.Now is not the time for the Police and Politicians to get into a free for all over who was to blame and who did not do enough.The Police did only what they felt would be acceptable, yes it did appear that they stood by while London burned around them, however we have only the politicians past and present to blame for this for allowing compensation claims to be brought against our Police to freely and easily. The poor old police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The TV coverage of riot police taking 3 potential looter's off of their bikes in Manchester proves this point, all we saw over a period of 18 hours was coverage from Manchester with that particular incident, where was there any coverage of London Police still standing too after being on duty practically for a 3 day period. In a sense we have to hold accountable the media for deciding on what to show on a continuous basis, these hooligans saw that nothing was being done and decided upon a free take what you can while you can.Indeed it was only when the Police presence was increased that they realised that they could no longer go on the rampage. However continuously being shown 4 young looter's boasting over what they managed to thieve and telling us that it wasn't bad a couple of days work is to my mind encouraging them not discouraging, there is absolutely no excuse for the kind of actions that the whole world has been  seeing.This country used to be considered the most safest in the World, after seeing these criminals getting away with it, how many tourists will want to come to the UK, how much will our economy lose over this. Money and job's that we can ill afford to lose.

Dawn Hardy ● 5402d

You disappoint me Phil, you are making excuses for the inexcusable,deprivation is a very big word to use, the way benefits are handed out nowadays no one knows that kind of deprivation anymore except those sleeping on the streets.Social Inclusion surely means that you wish to be a part of your society not fight against it. These hooligans both male & female need to understand that their are harsh consequences awaiting any of them who destroy our communities with there looting & arson, it will not be tolerated. I have heard today an excuse that young ethnics object to stop & search well it may surprise you but our grandchildren have also been stopped & searched did they set fire to the nearest shop stealing from it before the arson, NO they bloody well didn't so why!! in your estimation does this excuse anyone's behavior, I will repeat what I said before it does not matter what color these youngsters are they are only bent on causing mayhem for the thrill and stealing to sell it on or destroy it.My childhood was harsh by God there were no social workers to help us from an abusive husband or father, we took our hidings and still stood tall, so don't keep trying to convert me, you make out of this life exactly what you wish. I did I had a stupendous career that took me places all over the world,I have a great husband also 3 lovely caring children and 5 grandchildren I would die for, how was this achieved by hard work & love, not thinking that everybody owed me a living. Life's hard get used to it!

Dawn Hardy ● 5405d

It is a well established fact that when people feel included and when their quality of life improves they are less given to criminality, and that conversely when people are excluded, have no hope and are excluded from society criminal behaviour increases.Before anybody jumps on me and accuses me of being a do-gooder I would stress that this truism in no way justifies the actions of arsonists, looters and opportunistic criminals of the kind that we saw in action last night.  Nevertheless anybody who has been involved in work to combat graffiti, vandalism and anti-social behaviour will tell you that you that it is notably less prevalent in areas that do not give an impression of neglect and abandonment to begin with.Vanessa rightly points out that in recent history at least public disorder has largely occurred under Tory governments (although I don't think the Poll Tax riots nor indeed student protests can reasonably be cited as a comparison as they revolved around specific areas of government policy).  This would appear to demonstrate that under such governments disengagement is at its worst.What it also demonstrates however, following this train of logic, is that the more engaged a community is the less its sense of rejection and the less likelihood there is that elements within that community will resort to the kind of unacceptable behaviour that we have been witnessing.  This is a lesson that politicians of all shades should have the courage to learn.It is interesting, and significant, that Theresa May is now calling on the community to help defeat the rioters and looters.  It would have been helpful if she and her fellow politicians had been a little more willing to acknowledge our existence and the role we should be playing before it all kicked off.

Phil Andrews ● 5406d