Forum Topic

CONGRATULATIONS TO DAVID CAMERON!!!.A VERY WELL DONE!!!

David Cameron has held on to his beliefs and safe guarded both our Sovereignty and Financial institutions, he has taken the only decision that was open to him, we have to understand that Nicolas Sarkozy now has to explain to his people that he has given away their sovereignty you can imagine the French populace response the same goes for all other 15 EU countries.However he now has a scapegoat absolutely NO insult intended to David Cameron the little man arranged the treaty so that David Cameron would have no alternative but to veto it.Angela Merkel has safe guarded her position so at this moment in time has no problems,although Mr.Sarkozy is not a very happy bunny about the sovereignty issue, he knows how his people will react when given the whole story, never the less this treaty may have been initially signed but once the directives for budgetary control and taxes to be put in place start coming out from Brussels I do believe that the whole thing will fall apart. We now have the ECB somewhat half heartedly promising a ceiling of a 500 Billion bail out fund for countries with a debt crisis,whilst the commission fine them for over spending.When you consider the state of some of these countries just how long will this amount of money last and when it is used will it indeed be bolstered bit doubtful that! the IMF have also been promised 200 Billion, where and when will this be utilized and to what cost to the country receiving funds. If Mr Cameron had signed this treaty then today would have seen the start of an Exodus of our markets moving over to Hong Kong, USA etc, an awful lot of money comes from the City already and it helps a great many of our institutions already. No one in their right mind would deal in London knowing full well that each transaction would cost greatly in a "Tobin"tax introduced by Brussels at the instigation of the Empress of Europe who will diligently lead from the sidelines.Also bear in mind that this tax would straight away go into the Brussels piggy bank.And of course David Cameron will undoubtedly have those Europhile critics plus of course Red Ed Miliband who lost no time in trying to broad side Mr Cameron, if he had signed can you imagine what Red Ed would have said. Our Prime Minister did the right thing at the right time and people saying that we will be outside of what is decided in future need to realise that we were already outside and had no say in matters even then when important decisions on our fate were taking place. 

Dawn Hardy ● 5261d309 Comments

It will make a refreshing change.  Most people lose when I do vote for them.

Phil Andrews ● 5210d

Oh!Phil what a disappointment he is bound to lose if you don't vote for him.

Dawn Hardy ● 5210d

Good point.  I'll tell you what, I won't vote for him.

Phil Andrews ● 5210d

Is this man right in the mind he has an election coming up and he is to introduce his version of the Tobin Tax, will the Financial Market in Paris accept this we will have to wait and see.The VAT hike is to be introduced October 1st 2012,if Monsieur  Hollande his opponent wins the election he will reverse these decisions!

Dawn Hardy ● 5210d

So Keith you have the resolution in your hands start a new interesting thread and knock this one for 6.

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

If you are trying to suggest I should be thankful, it is not working.

Keith Iddon ● 5215d

On the Chiswick Forum it's 500 on the Church, think yourself lucky it's only politics!

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

This thread is 301 not out,though God only know how...can we give it a rest now?

Keith Iddon ● 5215d

Good on David Cameron for telling the European Court of Human Rights that they should reform their Court.He will tomorrow suggest the the ECHR bring in a filtering system to prevent cases properly resolved in National Courts being referred to Strasbourg also for an overhaul of how Judges are appointed too right!They interfere far too much and we have to pay the price, when a Radical Muslim Cleric like Abu Qatada is given leave to stay in our country by Strasbourg instead of being forwarded onto Jordan to stand trial for terrorist activities this is wrong.He should be deported as soon as he is released!!This person has for to long encouraged fanaticism within our country, he will be released from Prison within a few days and it will cost you and I at least £1000 a week to allow him to live a good life.

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

Obviously a vote on this issue was not taken in the House of Lords yesterday evening it was a complete fabrication!!! Ah! but it did happen, whereby it was unfortunately kicked out led by Lib Dem Paddy Ashdown.Churchmen should not be made Lords they should stick to the Church not politics, however they would not make £300 pounds per day giving a sermon in Church now would they?

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

Vanessa,If you did as much research as I do! you could be too!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

DawnHeadlines are designed to sell papers.  One needs to read beyond the headlines to understand how these things actually work in the real world.Very few people receive £26k p.a. on benefits.  Benefits are assessed according to several criteria and the number of children one has, and thus has to feed, is one of them.The amount of rent one has to pay to one's landlord is another.Anybody receiving £26k per year from benefits will almost certainly have a large family and be paying market rents.  In other words the recipients are not being paid huge sums of public money for beer and fags, but to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads.That's not to say the system does not need to be changed in some way.  It would be quite reasonable to argue that there is little incentive for the head of a large family to take up work, where unless they have much sought after skills or qualifications the wages are unlikely to be better than can be obtained on benefits.  But to imply that £26k is the norm for somebody on the dole, as certain newspapers have a tendency to do, is just downright dishonest.When I was signing on briefly a short while ago I was receiving around £165 per week (£8.58k p.a. pro-rata), of which about £100 (£5.2k) was purely to cover the rent.  That is a far more realistic figure for an ordinary family on benefit living in social housing, but it doesn't induce the same Pavlovian reaction from your average Sun or Daily Mail reader and hence seldom makes the news.

Phil Andrews ● 5215d

How we manage without your wisdom helping to run this country is a mystery to me. Do Dodgy Dave and Wee Georgie know you are available? You are quite clearly an expert on everything - we truly are not worthy.

Vanessa Smith ● 5215d

Drug Dealing is quite rightly at this moment in time against the Law, and yet on the box this morning unless drug dealers are carrying more kilos than stipulated they will not be sent to Prison.So why not legalize Drugs this way we will have no pushers it works quite successfully in say Switzerland where before going to work they pop into the local center pay their due get there dose and go to work, it is controlled by the government, it is also happening this way in other European countries with success.

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

Why do we have politicians with such mundane ideas, Andrew Lansley states that they want to save 20 Billion within the NHS, this can be done without penalizing patients simply cutting back on management who earn exorbitant salaries, money will not be saved by bringing in private companies.Why can the NHS not combine and have a Purchasing System whereby hospitals can order at cost price, the way it is done now all hospitals use individual companies with so much being wasted also the cost is excessive, having one purchaser gives an edge to the purchasing price. By breaking up the NHS and giving Doctors too much power spells trouble with a capital "T"

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

I am absolutely amazed at how much people get on benefits and appalled at the thought that exempting child benefit will mean at least 60000 children will be put into poverty!!!WHAT UTTER RUBBISH!Nearly 60% of our work force are earning less then 20k a year and working damned hard for it, they manage because they have to.

Dawn Hardy ● 5215d

The Royal Mint are planning to issue the 2 coins mentioned above next month, however because the new ones have been made of Nickel-Plated they are slightly thicker(the old ones are Nickel & Copper)one would have thought that the bright spark who thought these new coins up would have ensured that the prototype would have been tested on Parking Meters,Vending Machines and Payphones,before running off millions of said coins.Obviously this did not happen consequently, when you park your car up and go to pay your coin will not work and we will suppose the machine broken until we all receive a Parking Fine!!! When you consider the possible cost for Industry to update these machines(80 Million Pounds) has been suggested!what a bloody waste of time effort and our money!What could possibly be wrong with the ones that we use now Oh!Silly,silly me they have our Queens head on and the new ones do not.

Dawn Hardy ● 5218d

Watching the Politics Show this lunchtime I was quite startled to hear a young Tory MP put forward that if we do not contributr this additional funding then we would be asked to leave the International Monetary Fund, this of course is utter nonsense, when we have President Obama of the USA stating quite emphatically again this week that the US woud not give any more money to the IMF at this time.I am going to reiterate what I have stated on many occassions, the idea that the IMF are going through the back door to fund the bailout of the Euro is I consider  very wrong, this us not solving the crisis it is showing a false outlook. President Obama quite rightly says that Mrs Merkel should contribute more however she has problems with her own people who say that enough is enough. No more of our money!!!!If we do not make a stand right now it will continue indefinately with the UK giving money that we can ill afford and so desperatly need ourselves.

Dawn Hardy ● 5219d

As we have contributed 30 Billion to the International Monetary Fund already and they require another 15 Billion from us that has to go before our Parliament to be agreed upon and passed. Can we please be told when this application for funds will stop and we can once again concentrate on our own problems.This money would make a great difference to us.  I do hope that Mr Cameron will not be taken in by the suggestion made by Nick Clegg a few days back that the new treaty proposed by Markozy be integrated into the Lisbon Treaty and that it will automatically take place without we the people having a Referendum, any changes to the Lisbon Treaty would need ratification surely, if that is the case and a Referendum is on the cards then why can we not vote Yes or NO to come completely out of Europe and once again be our own Sovereign State!

Dawn Hardy ● 5220d

It is good to know that at least something is working for them, the Basque people are go getters anyway.

Dawn Hardy ● 5220d

DawnYou misunderstand me.  I didn't say Spain was having it good, I said that Mondragon was working well within Spain.  Indeed it is the largest business group in the Basque region and the seventh largest in Spain itself.  Unworkable, Utopian ideal did you say?

Phil Andrews ● 5221d

Why can it not be just a nice gesture, not everyone expects a reward, although I most certainly do understand your attitude how much money was made for Labour by Lord Levy selling off knighthoods.

Dawn Hardy ● 5221d

This is were it is so very wrong Her Majesty has nothing to do with a new yacht and yet is automatically blamed for a nice gesture.This proposed yacht is estimated at a cost of 60 million yes a great deal of money, which is causing controversy.Yet on the agenda is a proposed 30 Billion Pounds to be given to the International Monetary Fund and not a eye blink is seen, that money would be better spent in the UK. The IMF are talking about infusing 1 Trillion Euros into the fund which I might add is supposedly for 58 hard up countries and should not be used to bail out EU countries, they are hoping that China,Russia,India etc,etc will contribute will that happen we will have to wait and see.

Dawn Hardy ● 5221d

Phil,I was not talking about injustice to me,I was making a point that equality in anything is a Utopian thought and in real life it just does not happen, as it was I earned a great salary.You talk as if Spain were having it good a falsehood unfortunately people are losing their houses hand over fist, unemployment is very bad, my thought is the Euro is to blame I have always advocated that competitiveness is the only way forward, having ones own currency does give you an edge.

Dawn Hardy ● 5221d

And what will their price be - Knighthood, some other gong? Or a blind eye to a tax scam in the UK?

Vanessa Smith ● 5221d

If two private individuals have ten million burning a hole in their back pockets and they choose to use it to help Her Maj through these troubled times then who am I to argue?Me though, I've got more pressing concerns right now.

Phil Andrews ● 5222d

I agree entirely Dawn, gender inequality is an injustice.  But it seems a strange thing to do to defend one injustice on the grounds that you were once a victim of another.What is more far from being a Utopian ideal Mondragon shows that economic distributism can work, even within a capitalist economy such as Spain.

Phil Andrews ● 5222d

On MSN just now, 2 Canadian Business men have offered 10 Million toward the Diamond Jubilee Yacht. Way to go guys.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

Phil,Many thanks for an excellent explanation however you are describing a utopia. I worked extremely hard the whole of my career like most people do, unfortunately I was born female as far as my career was concerned, I say unfortunately because however good I was and I was very good the graduates that I trained in accounting and auditing earned far more than I did,Why? because I was a woman.I once asked my then Financial Director why I did not earn as much as my male counterpart, do you know the response!because he had a mortgage to pay and I didn't. You see another guy who assumes, my husband and I have always shared everything even the mortgage repayments,so I do understand the point that you have so eloquently made however we women have never ever been on an equal par to men as far as salaries go!

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

DawnA distributive economy is one in which ownership of property and the means of production is spread as widely as possible.  This differentiates it from capitalism, where most of the wealth is own by the few, and from socialism where (in its purest form) everything is owned by the state.The Conservatives have traditionally been seen as the party of capitalism and Labour the party of socialism, although in truth Labour has never been entirly socialist and today its aspiration would appear to be to manage capitalism better than the Conservatives can (although most "socialists" still for some inexplicable reason cling to the Labour Party because, well, it's the party innit?).Giving people a stake in the society in which they live and work, beyond political representation and a mere wage, must surely bring the best out of them, especially important in times of difficulty such as those we are currently experiencing. In a distributive economy hard work is rewarded.  There are pay differentials to encourage hard working people who wish to climb the ladder.  But usually there is also a maximum wage that is tied to the lowest wage, which serves as an incentive for the higher paid to want to improve the conditions of the lowest paid.  It makes good sense.

Phil Andrews ● 5222d

Many people have overtime made the mistake of trying to assume that they know what I'm thinking.The only person who has ever been successful is my husband Dee, he reads me like a book a good book he says, but then of course he would.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

My dear it would be too too much for you you wouldn't have the stamina to keep up.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

I will be instructed by you Phil, whenever your ready to give the info.No I didn't look, perhaps you can tell me at the same time if you will.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

Seems entirely reasonable to me ;0)

Tony Wood ● 5222d

Let's not be presumptive here Tony lad, but I think maybe Dawn has me down as some kind of communist.  I'm sure all will become clear.

Phil Andrews ● 5222d

two senior citizen tickets to dawnsworld please.

Tony Wood ● 5222d

DawnI'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but do know what a distributive economy is?I suspect you are offering criticism without having much understanding of what it is you are criticising, although if I am wrong I will be happy to admit it.Did you get a chance to follow the URL I gave to the Mondragon site?

Phil Andrews ● 5222d

I am generalizing, If you has started your own business many years ago and had made a great success having many many millions of pounds, then any successful person would automatically distribute there wealth among the needy without any compunction!!!!.What world do you live on Phil cause it ain't this one!In any society what is earned by hard work and honesty deserves to be kept. However if "I" was to win the Euro Millions I would give 1/10th to Charing X Hospital and 1/10th to Great Ormonds St Hospital the rest to our family, does that make me a good or bad person not to give it all away???

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

"If we had no capitalism, we would not have a UK that we have today"And that's no lie.

Phil Andrews ● 5222d

I have never really had much time for this young woman, however on this occasion she was in boni fide work for ITV obviously undercover on how Turkey treat their orphans this being 3 years ago, one wonders why? the Turkish Prime Minister would only now insist that she had broken the law( he wanted to know why she did not ask to go to these orphanages)why? because they wanted the truth not a propaganda visit.No one but no one should ever be tied down especially mentally ill children and it is only right that the world was shown such barbaric behaviour towards those little ones.If we have to keep a radical cleric like Abu Qatada because he might be tortured if sent to Jordan on terrorism charges, then we can tell Turkey to get lost,the threat of a 30 year jail sentence for a young woman doing her job,disgraceful!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

Give the man his due he has worked hard, China being the 2nd largest economy in the world and to have Hong Kong through China using our markets will bring jobs and wealth into our economy.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

Only you Keith:)

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

Well Phil inflation has gone down to 4.2% in December down from 4.8% the biggest drop since April 2009.If we had no capitalism,we would not have a UK that we have today,it is in essence who we are.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

In total agreement with you Vanessa. As usual he only told half of the story that allegedly Chris Huhne leaked, apparently Mr Gove sent a letter out in September suggesting that private donations contribute to giving Her Majesty a gift for the Diamond Jubilee 60 years celebration, I have read the letter posted in the Telegraph and it is quite emphatic that Public money would not be used.Does not Chris Huhne still have a dickie driving offence still in the offing about time there was closure to that, if you or I had taken the blame for our husbands driving offence our guys would have been given a prison sentence!!he would do better looking at himself and his actions, than causing bad feeling for the Queen!!!with incorrect information.

Dawn Hardy ● 5222d

http://www.mcc.es/ENG.aspx

Phil Andrews ● 5223d

Mondragon ? Don't they make sleeping pills?

Keith Iddon ● 5223d

Actually he was talking about workers' co-ownership, which is about giving everybody a stake in industry and can hardly be described as "negativity" in age when thanks to the bankers and politicians people more than ever need a reason to carry on.It seems we are allowed to labour the old debate about laissez faire capitalism versus state socialism but economic distributism is the concept that dare not speak its name.Then again Dawn I suspect that if I were to say "Mondragon" it would invoke an image of Puff rather than a successful worker-owner initiative in the Basque region.

Phil Andrews ● 5223d

Why do you pay any attention to Clegg? The man is a prat, he just speaks for the sake of it. If, leading up to the next eletion, they decide to have those awful T.V. discussions I just hope people have learned the lesson, Clegg was a classic case of style over substance, and look how many morons fell for it.

Vanessa Smith ● 5223d

Listening to Nick Clegg this morning was like listening to an echo of David Cameron and Ed Miliband, apparently Capitalism is wrong and should be controlled whilst I was watching his speech the FTSE went down 0.018% we need positivism not negativism Mr Clegg.This is a man who tells us that too much is paid to a few,in essence I agree however is this not the kettle calling the pot black,after all his wife is now earning 500 thousand pounds per year working for an American Lawyer/Lobbying Company in the heart of the European Commission, come now if she was working on the stock market would it not be called insider trading.Himself being an ex-MEP has a pension that most people would think was heaven to live on, if he feels so badly about living in a capitalistic society maybe he will offer to work without pay, now that would be a positive action. What I found extremely offensive was his suggestion that we should not celebrate our Queen's Diamond Jubilee(60 years) because of the economy, her Majesty makes and gives more to the UK than any bloody politician so leave her alone Monsieur Clegg!!! Another thing he mentioned the Royal Yacht, just how long has that been decommissioned was it the Queen who suggested a new one NO! it wasn't it was a politician who would use it to make an argument to take the onus off of some of their ineptitude.

Dawn Hardy ● 5223d

I watched Rachel Reeves this morning on TV, she made quite a to do about this government borrowing an additional 150 Billion and yet in the same breath said that both Ed's could not promise to retract any cuts that the coalition will have made to us whilst in term, they do seem to have short memories this deficit has not just come about or even came about when the coalition came into power it was inherited.Never the less it will become an election piece on how much VAT has increased even though Labour were going to increase by the same amount now they are being silly in suggesting that it be reduced, how can we afford this to happen. One side of the penny they criticize the governments actions on the reverse side they appear to be coming around to thinking that cuts are a necessity providing they are not blamed.At the moment we are holding our own and although France want us to be downgraded, we are fortunate not to have joined the Euro Monetary System, the BOE intervened with quantitative easing this emits a certain amount of confidence within the markets only because we do indeed have our own currency.Competitiveness is a necessity that is what builds growth.

Dawn Hardy ● 5224d

I think Labour are only just beginning to appreciate that although the deficit will not be cleared this time around and in all probability next time around,the actions taken by the government have shown the markets that we are prepared to go without.Ed Balls today agreed that Public Sector workers would have to  have a freeze on their pay if Labour regain power, it's good that realism is starting to take precedence within our politics. David Cameron has enough watching his back with Nick Clegg, how that chap can look in the mirror after suggesting that this new treaty be integrated within the Lisbon Treaty is diabolical it also shows just how untrustworthy he is when supposedly looking after our countries interests!

Dawn Hardy ● 5225d

We've had this conversation before David and it has gone full circle, but let me just ask you this.  How do you propose to govern without the Lib Dems?  Do you think Cameron should attempt to lead a minority government or should he enlist the Labour Party's support in securing the 66.6% mandate that is now legally required to call an early general election?

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

How silly of Clegg to once again advocating that the UK should advocate joining the euro just before France and 7 other Eurozone countries have their credit ratings reduced. I don't know what he studied at Cambridge but he certainly did not learn anything about economics.Vincent Cable has something of a reputation as an economist. However her has been a professional politician for many years and I am afraid his political illusions have long since smothered and suppressed his economic judgement.The sooner we get rid of the Lib Dems the better.

David Giles ● 5225d

Who me?

Dawn Hardy ● 5227d

What interesting 'poetry'.Are you a published writer Dawn?

Keith Iddon ● 5227d

I know Keith it works wonders:-One fine day in the middle of the nightA fire broke out in the AtlanticA blind man saw itAnd a man with no legs ran to fetch the fire engineThe fire engine came drawn by 10 dead horsesRan over a dead cat and half killed it.

Dawn Hardy ● 5227d

You had Phil Walshe round for a 'cup of tea' Dawn? Try taking a bit more baccy with it..;-)

Keith Iddon ● 5227d

It was in the merry month of LiverpoolThe city of JulyThe Snow was raining heavilyand the streets were very dry

Dawn Hardy ● 5227d

I'm outta here.

Phil Andrews ● 5227d

Quite right we joined in 1973!

Dawn Hardy ● 5227d

If Dawn were to check www.europa.eu she would discover that The UK is one of the 27 members of the European Union. However, as this does not fit in with her deluded mindset it is unlikely that the fiction she has posted in this thread will ever be corrected.

John Connelly ● 5227d

Amen to that.

Keith Iddon ● 5227d

I reckon that'd make a fitting epitaph for this thread.

Tony Wood ● 5227d

Does not the EU have 17 Members States which is not inclusive of the UK!!!EU(European Union)there are 10 other countries of which we are a participant of the 27 although now thank goodness as far as that ridiculous new treaty is concerned 26!!,however we are not in the Union!Why do you think we were not allowed to vote in our own referendum which would have been a Yes or No vote to continue on the periphery, this having been done would have given back our powers which we did not hand out on a plate in the first place our politicians did!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5227d

What do you expect from someone who gets their information from the Torygraph?

Vanessa Smith ● 5228d

"..by that I literally thought the European Union not as we the UK are now on the periphery. Is this clear enough for you."No, because you still keep confusing the EU with the Eurozone.We are in the EU, we are not in the Eurozone.  It's not really that difficult Dawn.

Phil Andrews ● 5228d

Phil,Yesterdays Guardian & Telegraph!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5228d

Nick Clegg gave a speech yesterday in London at a summit of EU Lib Dem Leaders in which he outrageously suggested that the new treaty vetoed by David Cameron should be "folded into" existing EU treaties.Attending this summit among others were the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte also the European monetary affairs commissioner Olli Rehn, Mr Clegg went on to say that the new treaty should be incorporated with the EU's Lisbon treaty-this is exactly the result that David Cameron tried to block.When will Mr Clegg realise that he has the job of Deputy Prime Minister purely to REPRESENT the wishes of the people and should not use that position for his own personal agenda.However he did concede that Britain would still need safeguards to ensure that a revision of the Lisbon treaty would not jeopardize the single market. It would do Mr Clegg good to realize that although we in England were not permitted a Referendum on Europe, we the people can in this day of technology run our own referendum.You sir should not continue to stab your boss in the back but stand beside him for the good of the country!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5228d

Again I have obviously not clarified my point to you:-If Scotland wish to be an Independent entity then so be it however not on the stance that Mr Salmond has taken, why? on earth does he wish to wait to ask the Scots if they wish to vote yes or no to independence,if this is their wish then why wait until 2014!I thought that Mr Salmond had not so long ago stated that they may wish to join the EU, by that I literally thought the European Union not as we the UK are now on the periphery. Is this clear enough for you.

Dawn Hardy ● 5228d

"...plus they will only go into Europe when they want to!! is that not having your cake and eating it."DawnScotland is already in Europe so I'm guessing an independent Scotland would automatically remain an EU member until or unless it ever decided to leave.If you mean the Eurozone, I can't understand why it would be so unreasonable for an independent Scotland to decide whether or not it wished to join it.  Who else do you believe should make that decision on Scotland's behalf?

Phil Andrews ● 5229d

Yesterday evening on the BBC News she was quite adamant that although the Politicians in Scotland wanting Independence they would keep Her Majesty our Queen also the pound plus they will only go into Europe when they want to!! is that not having your cake and eating it.Independence surely means that you become autonomous, that you pay your own bill's if that is the case then it means that we will save an awful lot of money for the rest of the British Isles,however are the politicos absolutely sure that this is what the Scot's really want, I know quite a few ordinary Scot's who poo poo this Independence idea, could it be perhaps Mr Salmond's way of getting what he wants when he wants with this perpetual threat.Make no mistake Scotland and it's people have the right to vote on whether they wish to continue to be a part of the UK  it must be their decision alone and quite frankly if this is what they wish then the sooner done the better.It involves a great deal and should be thought about very carefully, small countries who have poodled along quite successfully before joining the Euro are now in debt big time, nothing is given for nothing their is always a time to pay the piper!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5229d

I am sitting here listening to Ed Miliband's speech and do you know I have heard it all before, when you ask why from David Cameron.It was quite amusing to hear Ed Miliband say that whoever wins the next election, they will have a deficit to deal with,what on earth have the present government had to deal with this last 18 months, it could be that if Gordon Brown had not sold off our Gold Reserves actually "sold off" is not true he practically gave them away by selling them at one third of the street value. The way he has criticized both David Cameron and George Osborne for not clearing the deficit left by Labour was quite ludicrous maybe Mr Miliband has a magic wand that he could loan them. He continues with the argument that the government had promised to clear the deficit within the period of this government of course it cannot be done.However as much as the times are hard it could be a lot harder the FTSE at the moment is running at 5670.19 so obviously the markets have faith. To clear the rubbish away that was left by Labour will take a great deal of time and effort by all. He has put forward no new ideas.He was just asked a question that he did not find amusing consequently he does not answer when he does not like the question.

Dawn Hardy ● 5229d

The link below has an interesting update from the BBC, although unfortunately there is no reference to job numbers:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16478954However this article refers to the creation of "hundreds" of jobs, which seems much more realistic than the absurd figure of 1 million or even 10,000:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16467903

Phil Andrews ● 5230d

Dawn doesn't let facts stand in the way of a good yarn.

John Connelly ● 5230d

You're right Dawn, I don't get it.  I am very stupid.

Phil Andrews ● 5230d

But the SNP are pro-referendum and they won the election.

Phil Andrews ● 5230d

If the Scots can hold a Referendum then so can we!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

YES Philip there is @ITV News on MSN!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

Just how do we know! why? because they were spied upon that's how and it should not have happened their privacy should have been maintained, I sincerely hope that the place they held this stag do goes out of business because I would not want to go there to be spied upon, you just don't get it do you it's the principal of the matter.Quite frankly this motion against this young Minister was taken to the French Lower Parliament by one of Sarkozy's friends it was just a political gambit because Sarko is up for re-election and he hoped to gain a few votes, little weed!!! Of course I would not object to him representing me, why should I, he did nothing wrong, just who did he offend and why? the Jewish population, the Political prisoners, the Gypsies any others that I have forgotten who were exterminated by a Syphilis filled maniac who should have been put down in the '30's. Those poor people are gone and yet not one of those group's have made a noise about it.They obviously saw it for what it was FUN!! a lark against the new bride to be.Many many years ago we all had a friend called Bunny on his Wedding Day the boys got together and gave his new wife a bunch of Carrots, should they have been arrested or maybe lost their jobs No! it was taken in the context it was given as a joke, distasteful as I found it, it caused a riot of laughter.Offence was not intended next we will have some other poor **d who may dress up as Stalin that maniac murdered 20 Million of his own population, our right's are being taken away on a daily basis and we sit by and let it happen.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

And Cameron's agreement to allow Clegg to implement a policy of non detention of families does not help. As for EU Immigrants, hands are pretty much tied due to EU law on this. It is an utter minefield. The definition of 'treaty rights' appears to include living on the streets and selling the Big Issue these days

Claire Peleschka ● 5230d

Is there a source for this please Dawn?

Phil Andrews ● 5230d

DawnYou are making excuses for this man that he didn't even make himself.  The people in his company were not mocking Hitler, and there is some question over the extent of his participation.  He certainly didn't raise any objections to what was happening.However, I may be wrong but my understanding of events is that he was not immediately dismissed for his indiscretion in being present at this stag do, but rather was asked by Cameron for an explanation whereupon he was, as Winston Churchill might have put it, economical with the actualité.Did I do daft things when I was young?  Are you being serious?  Yes, amongst (many) other things I attended fancy dress parties dressed as an SS officer (there's a photo knocking about somewhere that has yet to emerge, but on the plus side I did win second prize).  And although politically speaking I am much smaller fry than Mr Burley I have not stopped reading about it since.  It may not be right and it may not be fair, but privacy takes a back seat when you are in the public eye - ask Ron Davies, Paddy Ashdown, Tim Yeo or any of the countless other politicians who have been caught out in compromising situations.Mr Burley's career is not over, he will slip back in under the radar at some time in the future once the fuss has died down.  But what you need to ask yourself in the meantime is is he sort of person that you would want representing you?

Phil Andrews ● 5230d

130 jobs lost in UK port of Dover as French ferry operator SeaFrance goes into liquidation -

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

I absolutely agree with you, we need both the Police on our streets and our Immigration Officials to maintain our borders which should never ever have been taken down. By allowing so many European migrants into the UK it is taking our unemployed to ridiculous and disgraceful figures.Apparently we have permitted 600k from ex-Russian countries and yet we have an additional 450k youth unemployment in the same period of time and no I am not being Racist I am being Realistic.After all we are as Sarky called us a small Island therefore we cannot continue to absorb this input we really do need to say No More even if it is just for a 12 respite, it would maybe give us the start that is needed. Plus migrants should not be permitted to come to the UK unless they can prove that they have sufficient funds to keep themselves.After all we no longer have sufficient housing for home grown applicant's who get pushed further and further down the line in favor of migrants.It is all very well for government to give people means tests however ill feeling is permeating because others appear so much more well off then they do. Also the poor old NHS is getting a severe beating as well, migrants do so love to go to the A & E Dept with the Flu instead of their own GP's purely because they have not bothered to register with a surgery.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

Dawnhow does cutting services such as police and immigration by up to 35% contribute to a strong infrastructure? Not only is it completely the wrong time to make these cuts - recession invariably = rise in crime (riots) and the Olympics coming to London, therefore a huge influx of visiting nationalities (not all of whom return) but it's a total false economy. Whilst the amount of people paying tax and NI reduces the amount of people applying for benefits increases. I hope we do make the grade again but I suspect it will be a long time coming under this lot and would prefer to see investment in skills, manufacturing, industry and education rather than building a transport link for people to not travel to jobs they don't have.

Claire Peleschka ● 5230d

Apparently a poll in May of last year by the Scots showed 59% opposed a referendum and approx.29% said yes to one the rest didn't know.I think initially Mr Salmond wanted this referendum to coincide with the anniversary of a great battle between our two nations in olden day's hoping that nationalism would take hold and win the day.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

Tony,Thank you so much I really appreciate your post, I now have a better understanding, I also hope that your electricity supply gets mended soon, they do seem to have taken an inordinate amount of time to fix.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

Perhaps we should stop Contracting Out and start concentrating on building better and stronger.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

Claire,I do understand however we have to start looking to making our infrastructure strong once again, we have had hard times before and still made the grade, we will do so again.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

But does it not give you quite a kick when I make errors.Those young men had a right to PRIVACY it was STAG DO!! you know the one that young men go to to commiserate getting married, the whole point I was attempting to make is that we are at this moment spending millions on the Leveson Inquiry so that Privacy can be maintained for ordinary people not for film stars and the like who themselves tip off the media.Those young chaps were not glorifying Hitler they were taking the ike out of him and only one young man dressed up,surely if this kind of thing can happen at a private party which was spied upon then WHY on earth are we funding the Leveson Inquiry. Do you not remember being young and silly we had parties that are still laughed about no insult was intended by these young group, they were having a good time and should have had their privacy respected.It just does not make sense or does it, we have two sets of rules one that can do and say anything the other to shout shame when it is politically favorable to do so. Obviously it must be the latter because we have this young minister's career ruined whose only crime was to be seen siting at the same table and then we have Ms.Abbott who can insult us at will and of course get a pat on the back, we cannot have preferential treatment as the norm otherwise what is the point in telling our youngsters to toe the line and behave.

Dawn Hardy ● 5230d

There won't be any chance that the English are asked anything Vanessa.We will just be expected to pay for just about everything and to shut up.I wouldn't be surprised if Scotland,should it vote for independance,joins the euro when all the dust has settled,thus being virtually guaranteed being bailed out in future.After all,that's why the union with England came about in the first place,in essence.

Keith Iddon ● 5230d

It would be interesting to hear what the English think of this proposal.........

Vanessa Smith ● 5230d

"This is a serious question Andrew Marr this morning said that if Scotland left the UK entirely this would be the end of our Nuclear Power does anyone know why this is."  The Scottish Parliament had a vote on this a few years back and voted against any more nuclear stations especially ones built to supply "those down south",how would you feel if the situation were reversed?   The SNP (and others) feel that Scotland could be self sufficient in renewables,tide,wind and hydro electric,not Solar!!. This is probably true given the length of it's coastline for wave generation and the almost continuous Atlantic and North Sea winds for turbine generation. In the unlikely event of tideless windless days the reserve would be hydro electric which would probably mean a lot more mountain lochs being dammed with possible knock-ons for wild life (flora and fauna),another negative is the sheer number of pylons needed to get the electricity to anywhere useful,ask the people around Stirling! It costs 100 times more to go underground.    I live in North West Scotland and have had numerous power outages since Christmas,in fact we've got one now,I'm running on battery power. If they (Scottish Hydro) can't keep the small number of cables stuck to the pylons at the moment what chance if the have (say) 100 times more? Not much I'd say,so that needs looking at!    Scottish Independence......As far as I can tell it's by no means a forgone conclusion,the Scots are canny and will weigh up the pros and cons with a fine toothed comb,rightly so. As far as I can tell and I could be wrong,the Scots don't have a pathological dislike of "those down south",the exception being Mrs Thatcher,it's not considered polite to bring her name up at parties/gatherings,this all goes back to the Poll Tax fiasco. That and the seemingly endless replays of the 1966 World Cup (that really gets them!)     Another thing that's high on the SNPs list of priorities is the removal of the nuclear subs at Faslane,that's just a few miles from me so I probably agree from a purely selfish point of view!

Tony Wood ● 5230d

Yes, so much for all the hype about the private sector making up the shortfall from public sector cuts. I was reading in one of the Sunday papers that the government wants to cut 'bureaucrats' in Westminster, translated as civil servants. Some services such as getting the unemployed into work (where are all these jobs?) and running schools have already been contracted out, apparently the government interprets this as  "reducing the need" for bureaucrats. Surely all that's happened is you've swapped public service 'bureacrats' for private ones, or am I missing something?

Vanessa Smith ● 5230d

10,000 jobs created by this but over 100,000 lost in public sector cuts. Forgive me for my lack of excitement.

Claire Peleschka ● 5231d

DawnI am the last person who could criticise anyone for having a beer, I mean the very last, but I thought there had to be some explanation for the apparent deterioration in the quality of the posts.  Perhaps that medicine is good stuff, do have any to spare?However it seems the fault was mine if I missed the Diane Abbott connection (and if I didn't realise that when you mentioned David Miliband you were talking about Ed Miliband).There are, in my view, two flaws in your argument:1.  Diane Abbott is in the Labour Party, hence she is outside of David Cameron's jurisdiction.  Thus I cannot see how Cameron could be said to have applied double standards.2. There is surely no moral equivalent between making a stupid comment on Twitter, immediately apologised for, generalising about a race of people "playing divide and rule" and raising a toast to a man who murdered millions of people.As it happens I don't buy the "explanations" given by either of them.  But I also think both leaders got it about right, Abbott deserved a dressing down and Burley deserved the sack.  At the very least I think attending a Nazi bash and toasting the Third Reich when your leader is of partly Jewish descent is not a particularly smart career move.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

I have trawled the net and unfortunately that 1 million is quoted at being 10,000 much more realistic however an improvement to our infrastructure. It was said that eventually the track would go onto Scotland however if Mr Salmond gets his wish with his referendum why should we go to the expense of putting it in.This is a serious question Andrew Mar this morning said that if Scotland left the UK entirely this would be the end of our Nuclear Power does anyone know why this is.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

I heard some berk was quoted as saying this wiil create a million jobs and took it with a wheelbarrow of salt.All these type of schemes quite often have a low net gain in jobs as they do away with jobs in other sectors.They must think we are daft,and no doubt some bananas will believe them.

Keith Iddon ● 5231d

But Phil you are the man come on give a better answer,incidentally I do not drink, I take medicine and yes I did pop into the pub on as you know Xmas day but had a lemonade. I must tell my daughter not to put my movements onto face book any longer!!!I was sure that I mentioned Diane Abbot or did I??? what was it she said on her twitter that we white people divide and rule,our ancestor's who were serf's would argue the point,Oh! but I forgot we have all been rich since time began there were and are no poor in the UK.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Absolutely.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

DawnPlease don't take offence at this but your posts are becoming progressively more illogical as the day progresses.  Now how should I put this...are you sure you haven't been to the shop today?For the umpteenth time, I didn't sack the man so why? do you feel it is for me to explain or excuse David Cameron's decision.  Especially as, unlike your good self, I am not even a supporter of his and do not vote for his party.And what does it have to do with David Miliband?Fyi Burley was not "taking the pee out of Hitler" and as far as I am aware did not even claim to have been in his own defence.  He was present at an event where a toast was raised to Hitler and where Hitler's name was chanted, and he raised no objection.  For what it is worth I believe Cameron was right to sack him.  Why is this double standards, who has he not sacked who has behaved in a similar way?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Why? that was just wishful thinking on my part,I cannot show you an interview that I saw, however if I see it on the net I will be only to happy to point you in the right direction, undoubtedly if I look I will find it.I had another look at an addition apparently Union Leaders are supportive of this proposal which is a great thing.Anything that will bring good economics and jobs to us is a good thing is it not.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

So for taking the pee out of Hitler he should be an outcast and lose his job. David Cameron did what he thought best even though I disagree as David Miliband should have.Again you answer a question with a question but do not give a definitive answer, obviously I just might be right.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

"Shadow Transport Minister John Woodcock said 'The project would bring clear economic benefits' sorry not my imagination!!"I'm sure it will bring economic benefits.  But where in that quote does it say it will create a million jobs?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

That doesn't make any sense Dawn unless you are suggesting there is another Junior Minister who attends Nazi knees-ups and who hasn't been disciplined, in which case what you say would be fair comment.In any case I still don't see why you feel I have to answer for the Prime Minister's actions.  You're the David Cameron fan, not me.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Phi' just looked on the net:-BBC News:-If I can quote?Shadow Transport Minister John Woodcock said"The project would bring clear economic benefits" sorry not my imagination!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Again it's preferential treatment in play, rules are there to be adhered to by one and all not the selective few.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

DawnI think you'll find it was you who first brought up the subject of the rail link so if you don't know what the discussion is about what chance do the rest of us have?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

DawnI don't know why this is addressed to me, it wasn't me who sacked him.Maybe David Cameron thought it was inappropriate to have a Junior Minister who drinks a toast to Hitler?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

I no longer know you have me completely confused!

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Answer me this if you can or will Phil, Why did that young Tory Junior Minister get sacked for being spied upon at a PRIVATE stag do in France where another guest wore a German last war uniform and took the pee out of Hitler, and yes a drink was proposed to Hitler which in all probability meant the young mans soon to be bride. How many millions have we spent on the Leveson inquiry because peoples privacy had been invaded and yet did not the same thing happen here costing this young man his career. That Philip is Hypocrisy.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

"What is it with you 20 questions put in a good response."Sorry, I don't understand this Dawn.  Are you asking me a question?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Aren't we talking about a rail link between Birmingham and London?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Tony, think what you will my thought's are a sight better than the negativity displayed by the Labour Party all they do is criticize David Cameron and yet never ever show a plan that would help our economy. They do so well at decrying this government why should they not,they had it sweet for 13 years free of constraint unfortunately know is the hard part by trying to put the pieces back together.Just look at the Shadow Front Bench nothing has changed the politicians who stabbed us in the back are still in the fore front, is anyone going to take them seriously, I don't think so each and everyone of us has a long memory,it would have to be a charismatic new Labour Leader to win the next election.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Does not the road from Birmingham lead elsewhere Phil or does life stop there.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

How do I apply?  If they're taking on a million people you'd have to be pretty dumb to fail the interview.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Yes,that's why I suspect the 1 million figure was conveniently leaked by an unknown group of bods at this particular time ,that's what politicians do.   People like yourself pick up on the big figure and think "cor that's alright,getting rid of a third of the unemployed in one go". It's just PR that in 15 years or so the Government can claim " We didn't ever say that"   Yes we'll wait and see the outcome of this foregone conclusion with baited breath. I just hope I'm around to see the backlash from the Shire counties,it'll make the fox hunting ban seem like childs play...........which I suppose it is really.

Tony Wood ● 5231d

One million is more than the entire working population of Birmingham.  With so many new people on the firm the track should be laid within a day.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Maybe so,but David Cameron is to give a decision on this proposal in the coming week,let's wait and see.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

I don't quite know where they've plucked this convenient figure from,I imagined the bulk would be building workers during construction,dip 'em in concrete and use them for sleepers as they go along possibly. However being Captain Misanthrope I think it's a bit suspicious,it's a dribble of positive information that's not accredited to the Government, so they can't be held responsible when only 3 extra people get jobs.It's all tosh.

Tony Wood ● 5231d

I was trying to make a point, that abuse for football players is ongoing and that it is wrong and causes ill feeling when it is just a few that hit the headlines. What is it with you 20 questions put in a good response.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Not being in the government I cannot give you an answer, however it really does not matter where the work is as long as work is made available. Unfortunately firms want trained people what they should be prepared to do is train staff, all very well businesses saying that they advertise but get no response if they were prepared to train them the response would be there.For building a Rail Track would we not need steel workers,people to lay track before that people to put the shale down, Bombardier to make the carriages it goes on and on,there is always a new innovation to make money with.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Do you know of any incidents in which white players have been racially abused by opponents?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

It causes a lot of ill feeling that has taken a long long time  to overcome,just this weekend we had a houseful of 17.18.19 and 20 year old's visiting,there reaction was a big negative and asked why? it was such a big issue because white players just swallow it. That's the whole of it, it causes bad feeling's.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

will these new jobs be in Birmingham or in London?  It strikes me as odd that we can employ a million more Brummies just by getting them to London a bit faster.  Why can't unemployed Londoners do these jobs now?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

I think the football issue needs to be viewed in the context of the efforts that have been made to eradicate racism from the sport.  There's not much point in ejecting supporters from the ground for making monkey noises at black players if the players themselves don't know any better.I'm generalising however, John Terry is innocent until/unless proven guilty and there does seem an element of doubt about the Suarez thing.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

No Tony heard it on the box, it's Sunday don't go to the shops on Sunday.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

in all probability you are correct. It would be a knock on effect.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

I thought you'd got it from todays Mail.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083433/Rails-high-speed-future-Fast-link-UKs-biggest-cities-green-light.htmlA group of independent economists have said so,wonder who they independently work for?

Tony Wood ● 5231d

The fiasco about the alleged remarks to footballer's.Any and all footballers irrespective of heritage come in for an awful lot of abuse it is wrong to just pinpoint a few.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

I assume they must be referring to the knock-on effect of the link then rather than just the work involved with the project itself.  Otherwise that's a lot of new train drivers.

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

Only that which I heard on the box Phil, I must admit to being surprised at the volume however it was said.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

DawnDiane Abbott (not Dawn, that's you) apologised for her comments and would probably have been sacked had she not.Who was the other who was taken to task by the media?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

"Apparently it would take 1 million off of the unemployed listing"Are you sure?  Do you have a source for this Dawn?

Phil Andrews ● 5231d

How is it possible that it is acceptable with absolutely no comeback for a public figure like Dawn Abbot to make offensive remarks and yet for another to be taken to task with all the might of the media.We all live together quite amicably without any RACIST activity going on, and yet according to the media it's going on all over, come and visit our road we all chat and get on very well, football players have always been given stick no matter what, racism should not be pin pointed because that only fuels the flames.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

The proposed high speed link between Birmingham and London appears to have caused controversy because of the green house effect? I would have thought that the amount of people who drive into and from London on a daily basis(Birmingham)to work would cause far more emissions.Apparently it would take 1 million off of the unemployed listing and yes it would cost between 16 & 17 Billion however it would give our infrastructure a big boost also show that the Government are serious about re-balancing our economy, yes I know 17 Billion is a lot of money especially as our economy is slow, but! our pound is running at it's highest against the Euro 1.21 in the last 15 months.Also let's remember that the Olympic Stadium cost how much 16 Billion, that last's what? 4 weeks the train track will last hopefully indefinitely, giving people back their pride and training lot's of people in new jobs. The proviso should be that everything that appertains to the building of this track should be made in the UK, let's start rebuilding our economy with this proposal, it would also show the rest of the world that we are cutting emissions, another proviso should be that the fares will be affordable.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Nicolas Sarkozy is to introduce the Transaction Tax in France apparently later this month, it will be interesting to see whether the Markets although small will stay within the French Province or just move out. I watched Mr Cameron on the Marr show this morning in my opinion he was right, this transaction tax will only be workable if the whole of the world were to introduce it otherwise it will fail, no market will make a deal in France if they can make the same deal without being penalized elsewhere in the world.Good for David Cameron or saying that only if the rest of the world took this up would we.

Dawn Hardy ● 5231d

Spot on.

Phil Andrews ● 5234d

Sorry, that's just B/S council housing has sod all to do with the E.C. Talk about getting your knickers in a twist.

Vanessa Smith ● 5234d

Council housing is supposed to be targetted for people who can't afford to rent or buy in the private sector.It is not there to provide a domicile from which to run a property empire,however big or small.To argue that it is ok to own property  whilst still expecting the public purse to subsidise your home(council rents are about 30-40% lower that private sector?)is just ludicrous.How many other properties would someone be able to own? I'm sure if someone had 3 or 4 other properties and still lived in CH,they or someone else would contrive some sort of twaddle about it being their right to do this.There are a miriad of areas in modern Britain where people have a bloated sense of entitlement,think rules and regs.can be bent or broken to suit their needs because they are a 'special case' and where liberties are taken with seeming impunity.

Keith Iddon ● 5234d

Then they really should have their Council Property taken off of them because financially they do not need it other's do.

Dawn Hardy ● 5234d

No of course not, however I really do not believe that one person should be permitted to buy more than one Council House, if you want to run a business then go out into the big wide world. Realistically buy your Council House to live in, not to rent back to the Council at a rent of 1100 pounds per calender month.

Dawn Hardy ● 5234d

This is where most of our problems arise, we are unbeknownst to most of the UK governed by Brussels. The time has come for our powers to be taken back after we are all grown up now. David Cameron I believe has taken a strong stance with the New Treaty Veto let's just hope that he continues to put us first. Not be bullied in doing what others would wish for.

Dawn Hardy ● 5234d

I'm differentiating between sub-letting a council property and someone who has both a council property, which they live in, and also has a business interest in another property which they let out. In what way are they taking advantage of public funding? Who are you to stop someone from having a certain sort of business interest?I'm not really that bothered, I'm only pointing out that stopping people from owning and letting other properties may prove difficult to enforce - and raises many issues.

Alan Clark ● 5234d

Take my word on it, clarity will be obvious from here on in!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5234d

If a person can afford to buy a private property, then quite frankly why should they live in a Council Property when we have so many families who are in dire need of housing.

Dawn Hardy ● 5234d

I sort of agree with Vanessa on this,but it's fairly complicated. It could be that at the time of granting a council house the applicants didn't need to lie if they didn't have any other property.   Things change,parents eventually die and some may leave a paid for house to their offspring,what are the rules in this case,should they own up to the council or sit on their hands,are the council interested? It may be that the parents house is nowhere useful in terms of employment/schools etc. to the new owners.  As for those that do lie in their application,then the outcome should be perfectly clear...You loose the council house and forfeit some or all of the profit accrued from renting out the second house.  It seems to me that (and I never thought I'd say this,but needs must) the case for ongoing means tests seems an obvious (also odius) route,once again the honest majority will suffer but it may free up some much needed properties.  I haven't thought this through too much,I've got flu and only just got our electricity back after 3 days :0)

Tony Wood ● 5234d

I really do not understand where you are coming from on this issue. 'Public, affordable or social housing' is funded from the public purse for people who cannot afford to buy a property of their own, it is NOT an assett for speculators to use while they play the property market, thus depriving someone of the chance for a decent roof over their head. To obtain the social housing they would have had to lie on their application about their circumstances I imagine - fraudulently obtaining a property? To be honest I don't give a toss what the returns might be on their business venture anyone who takes advantage of something the public, (i.e. the taxpayers) fund in terms of the capital outlay, for personal private gain is dishonest. Do you take the same lax view regarding the big companies that don't pay their tax?

Vanessa Smith ● 5234d

I understand the emotional reaction to someone having both social housing and a letting business, it seems plain wrong and in conflict with the principle of being awarded social housing. However, going back 3-4 years, you did not need much money or assets to get a buy to let mortgage. The returns are about 6-8% per annum, that is not a large income. And the asset may now actually be a liability - worth less than the mortgage taken out. Aside from the 'serves you right' reaction, this does not now seem like someone taking advantage of social housing, more like a business venture doing moderately to poorly well. If the business venture was about anything other than housing, would your reaction be the same?

Alan Clark ● 5234d

I had a case once in my old work where a family illegally residing in the UK had made an application to remain in the UK on the basis of Article 8 of the ECHR. The main elements of this claim was the 6 bedroom property that they owned and rented in Yorkshire and the 3 bedroom council house in which they resided in Hounslow. Suffice to say the council had no interest in this information.

Claire Peleschka ● 5235d

Right, I can see now where the misunderstanding arose - the figures you were quoting were not actually relative to one another!This is why they did not and need not add up to 100%.However the figures you are now quoting for Clegg and Miliband vary wildly from the ones you gave us originally, indeed your original figures showed them both in a better light than the true ones do, which I'm sure was not your intention.It would have been easier for everyone Dawn, yourself included, if you had been clearer about what these figures referred to when you made your original post.

Phil Andrews ● 5235d

Hard as it may seem social housing is let on the basis of housing need. Now, if you can afford to buy a property that brings you an income then you are not surely in any housing need are you? Because you would be able to live in that property. Personally I think that's dreadful and it is still getting a financial benefit from the public purse. Whether you sub-let a council property or tell big porkies about your housing situation in order to get a property so that you can let another that you own isn't right or fair. I would think that most tenancy agreements cover this in some way.

Vanessa Smith ● 5235d

Are you sure its that simple? Buying a property with the specific purpose of letting it is a business venture. Are you saying that you wish to exclude all council tenants from such a business venture? Is the rule to be "not allowed to be a landlord". This is different from sub-letting a council property given to someone for accommodation, this is preventing anyone with a council home to run or be involved in a property business. That sounds difficult to define or enforce.

Alan Clark ● 5235d

That's hardly the point Dawn it's just an excuse for not doing something, it just needs people to find their cojones and let the morons of Hopeless Homes or your local councillor know what's going on. Then sit on your councillor's tail until they elicit a response from HH that they have actually left the comfort of their office to investigate.

Vanessa Smith ● 5235d

I totally agree with you Vanessa however you yourself said that it took you 18 months before any notice was taken of you,no wonder council's have a bad time allocating properties to those in need, if the figures shown on the box are right,160 thousand council tenants are actually sub letting and as you say making money out of the tax payer.

Dawn Hardy ● 5235d

Unfortunately I am not allowed to copy this article, however look on line at the Guardian for the 25/12 and you will see that I was actually right about the 48% for David Cameron's popularity,I don't know whether I will be permitted to quote this however here goes.Cameron's popularity surges ahead of Miliband following Euro Veto but the parties are still neck and neck. Survey found 48% of the people thought PM was doing good job.But 47% thought Coalition was doing bad. Miliband scored-17 whilst Clegg scored -19 last updated 25th December Guardian/ICM Poll.

Dawn Hardy ● 5235d

Quite right Vanessa.They are ponces,to put it in local vernacular.

Keith Iddon ● 5235d

Keith I think that's good advice. I think the point is that none of us like dropping people in it, on the other hand these people are abusing the system and taking some benefit from the public purse - which means the rest of us as taxpayers. We can't moan and then just sit by and watch while people take the p***, and this situation isn't fair to the people in genuine need and who have jumped through all the hoops required. After all if you own your own house you can always sell up and move can't you? It requires people to stick their heads over the parapet occasionally no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

Vanessa Smith ● 5235d

Just hold on a moment, I did not invent them I admitted that initially I had made an error on the 48% for David Cameron when in fact it was 42%, you are insinuating that I lied which I did not, I will endeavour to bring the Guardian article up on the net,copy and paste it for your perusal.,

Dawn Hardy ● 5235d

So by your own admission the figures you gave us you invented completely?Fair enough, but you will forgive me I'm sure if I treat all further "information" from you with the seriousness it deserves?

Phil Andrews ● 5236d

Bernadette,If you're concerned phone the council housing dept.and outline your concerns,no need to mention addresses at that stage and take their advice.

Keith Iddon ● 5236d

Sometimes reporting people isn't that easy.  I used to regularly say hello to a man that lives or lived opposite my daughter but I hadn't seen him for a few months.  Just before Christmas my son in law saw him at a bus stop and  asked him where he had gone.  The story was that he had been burgled last spring and his wife did not feel safe so, they were now living in a "council house in Feltham and had let their house out".I don't know anymore than that, not even his name.  As far as I am aware he and his wife lived alone in a property owned by them which they no longer live in and, if it's true that he and his wife are now in council accommodation. I would really like to know why and how they managed to acquire this alternative accommodation but, being suspicious and peeved as I am, I have no idea how or what exactly I would be reporting.  As a result I sit and fester on this partial information like so many other disgruntled citizens.  After all this is purely anecdotal and I have no proof of any wrong doing.  In this day and age where hardly anyone knows their neighbour how can anyone really know what is going on in strangers lives and, is the public really supposed to spy on and report strangers without any real knowledge of actual situations.

Bernadette Paul ● 5236d

Seconded.Report them,they are taking a diabolical liberty.

Keith Iddon ● 5236d

Report them then if you know this for a fact.

Vanessa Smith ● 5236d

Your seeing things that you want to see so don't be so silly,you should know by now that I don't hide behind bushes consequently whatever you saw in the post does not exist.That is the end of that! no more!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

That was the point,Councils are for ever saying that there are not enough properties to let and yet allow dishonest people to Sub Let. Also I happen to know of 2 people who do actually live in Council Property and also own houses which they rent out, it should not be allowed.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Brentford's VILLAGE IDIOT Dawn Hardy reaches a new low. What a piece of sh**, even for a Tory!

John Connelly ● 5238d

I'm not sure if I should comment - but here goes anyway. I also thought there was an implied threat from Dawn, but then off she goes on some other tangent. So whilst criticising you for not answering questions she has completely avoided further explanation of what she was hinting at. I cannot imagine that anyone wouldn't want people sub letting council properties to be taken to task, however if some of these housing officers left their offices and checked their patch routinely they might get a handle on this problem. I well remember canvassing in local elections some years ago and finding a lot of people registered to vote on the electoral role who weren't actually living at the address, true people move, but not that many, they were always reported but whether anyone actually did anything is another matter. I know of one fairly recently where HH couldn't be arsed and now they have finally - after eighteen months - got their act together, have let the property stand empty, it's enough to make you weep.

Vanessa Smith ● 5238d

Feel guilty about?  That sounds like another allegation to me Dawn.You had strongly implied in a previous post that you had something on me, I asked you to produce it and you responded with a comment about people who live in rented accommodation and own and rent other properties.  Any reasonable person would read this as an accusation.You might consider it helpful to make your position on this more clear in your next post and thereafter stop trying to speak in a forked tongue.  Leave this to the real politicians, you are frankly not very good at it and if you try it with anybody less accommodating than me you could one day end up in a whole heap of trouble.This is not a threat, it is genuine, friendly advice.

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

It's time for din din's so adieu until later!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Phil, What the hell do you feel guilty about, why do you think that I am accusing you and of what I might ask??? if you had noticed you would have seen the word GENERALIZING that young man encompasses all, when I was uneducated to speak in the third person term was acceptable!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

DawnI am unclear about what you are saying here, are you suggesting that I own a private property that I rent out?If so then you'd best be thankful that you lack the credibility to be worth suing.  The only property I "own" is a timeshare in Portugal and that is a matter of public record.  If you feel you have information that I own anything else then please do share it with us, if you do not then please desist from making unfounded and frankly stupid allegations of this kind.It is already against tenancy rules to sublet and tenants can have, and have had their tenancies withdrawn when they have been caught.

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Go to the top of the class Phil, you have a house point very well done! however the 42% for David Cameron still stands the other 2 parties had lower which you will know.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

You are detracting from this thread so lets start a new one, called should Council Tenants own Private Properties that they rent out.David Cameron thankfully and hopefully is going to put through Parliament a new Bill that makes it unlawful for Council Tenants to rent out their Council Properties too bloody right there are little enough Council Homes left as it is, another thing is that people who earn over 100K a year should not be housed by the local council.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Yes, because even after readjusting the figures following the error that you have decently admitted to the total support for the three major parties, on your figures, is still 111%.And that doesn't even take account of support that exists for smaller parties.

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Yes please.  I have thought very, very hard and I want to go there.  One example please of where as a councillor I ever put myself before the community.  You have my express permission to mention anything that you feel you have on me and I give you my word I will not think the worse of you for it.  Over to you Dawn.

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Actually I really did make an error in the 48% it was with verification that 42% was the correct figure.However even this figure is untrue as far as you are concerned.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Phil, think very very hard, do you really really want to go there!!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Just so that I can be sure Dawn, is this a question that requires an answer from me?

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Why! Phil you do surprise me, it hasn't stopped you voicing your opinion in the past.Competitive rates are a necessity to a countries growth, this in my opinion is why the EU is failing. I vehemently disagree with Brussels having any say in our Country, I did not give permission and neither did any younger members of our Society.This New Treaty that David Cameron used his veto on, takes all countries further away from self control, it is wrong and should never have been proposed, instead of getting together to solve the crisis within the EU that was completely ignored Merkozy concentrated on this blasted treaty.As for our Bonds they are considered the BEST in the world.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Er...yes, well...I agree...I think...So let me get this right, you deliberately produced a completely fictitious set of figures (which didn't even add up) to trick me into reading an article which said something entirely different?There's a logic there somewhere that is bursting to get out Dawn.

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

DawnI agree with your last paragraph (penultimate post) but don't understand your first one.  Can you please give me an example of where, as a councillor, I failed to do my best?Can you give me an example of where I put myself before my community?  As I have felt the need to point out to others on occasions (with the same lack of acknowledgement as I suspect I will receive from you) I was Lead Member for Housing for three years overseeing the management of 16,000 dwellings throughout the borough yet live in an overcrowded two-bedroomed flat in which we have had to give up our only living room so that our 14-year-old twins, a boy and a girl, no longer have to share the same bedroom. I didn't have a nudge-and-a-wink arrangement with a politically sympathetic senior housing officer to get me an extra bedroom that I didn't qualify for. If that is an example of me putting myself first then I truly give up.

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Where you are concerned, you do not need a reason to put my observations into query,however would you have read the Guardian and found out about the poll, NO!!! you only read what is comparable to your thought train. It got you curious enough to read the article several times, just to prove me wrong!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Okay Dawn, no historic examples then.  But if the Spanish pesetas thing was intended as a question then perhaps that is where we are going wrong.  If you read what you wrote it was not tabled as a question, it was written as a comment and as such I wasn't aware that you were expecting a response from me.Do I think the Spanish using pesetas is a good thing?  My honest answer is that I don't know.  I used to enjoy travelling around Europe and using all the different currencies and there is a blandness about having one currency wherever one travels.  I would agree that the currency is part of the national character and having a pocket full of pesetas when in Spain did give one more of a feeling of being in Spain, if that makes any sense.Whether it makes economic sense to revert to separate currencies is a different matter.  I am no economist, as the most cursory view of my bank statements will leave you in no doubt.My slight Euro-enthusiasm, which is by no means doctrinaire, arises from the fact that most of the progressive legislation that we adopt seems to originate in Europe whilst most of the legislation that originates with the UK Parliament seems to be concerned with taking us back to the Victorian age, whether we are talking basic human rights or employee protection.Please do let me know if I haven't answered your "question".

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Just heard trains are on strike in Portugal because of the austerity measures, only emergency ones are going, government fining unions.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

You my dear man are a Community Activist in what is best for you, any politician or Councillor who does not do his best for us is a no go as far as I am concerned.Decisions made should be well thought out not regretted once made and then jump to on a band wagon to decry those in power for continuing to do or trying to change those decisions, all politicians from any party must remember that they are accountable past and present. Whether you(generalizing)are in or out, it is unacceptable to forget what was done in your time!! It angers me greatly that politicos seem to think that we outside of politics are just to stupid to remember, my old mum God Bless her used to say don't throw stones at glass houses, she was so right because it has a very bad habit of rebounding.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Wether I support the Conservative Party or not, I am not indoctrinated by them, as I have proved in the past if there is something that I do not approve of then I am quick to voice my concern.You nit pick,you never respond to anything pertinent, What is your opinion of the Spanish People once again using Pesetas, is it good or bad in your opinion???As to showing you where you have not responded time is quite precious to me and I am not prepared to waste it on your infantile suggestions.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Sorry Dawn, I'm confused.  You are saying you set out to give us the wrong figures?  Why exactly?  Do you not thing this fatally undermines the whole point of your post?

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

DawnHappy New Year.Please show me where you have asked me a question that I haven't answered and I'll do my best to answer it.I am not a politician, I am a community activist.  Whilst in my view supporting or even being a member of a political party is not necessarily incompatible with putting one's community first, slavish adherence to a party above all else surely is?Like I said once before I had you down as a community type person, which is why I find it disappointing that you sometimes feel the need to attack me for being the same.  The political parties are overwhelmingly self-serving.  The Conservative Party, in my opinion, is no more interested in building organic, independent, thriving communities than is Labour.  One believes in every man (and woman) for themselves whilst the other has a controlling mentality and feels threatened and redundant when a community organises for its own benefit.Remember who it was who said there is "no such thing as society".

Phil Andrews ● 5238d

Watched this at 3am this morning, some parts of Spain have gone back to using Pesetas, a town introduced the scheme for 1 month and have now extended it to 3 month's to boost the growth and economy of the town. Councillor s collect it and take it to the capital to change into Euro, however using the Peseta has boosted sales for the shop keepers. Well done to them for inventiveness. Phil they got 168 to the Euro!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Normally to me a "Fowl" language!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Actually Phil if you had stopped for one moment and thought, I achieved what I set out to do of course 48%+33%+32% does not add up to 100%. David Cameron actually polled 42% which you found out!! when you read both article's.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

Of course it isn't!! would I expect anything else from you. Both you and Vanessa choose to pick but never ever give a good debate, both ex-politicians(Councillor's) so experienced in answering a question with a question but never ever give a definitive answer.

Dawn Hardy ● 5238d

"Trust me, this is not a compliment" - ho,ho, ho.Thank-you for patiently explaining the point I was making, I sometimes wonder if I am writing in a foreign language!

Vanessa Smith ● 5240d

But the article Guy refers to do not mention the figures you have quoted.  Or have I read it wrong?I'm not trying to catch you out here Dawn, I'm just looking for a bit of help as I have clearly missed some important information in the article.

Phil Andrews ● 5240d

I think Vanessa's point was that the strike had the same percentage support from those entitled to vote as did the Conservative Party at the 2010 general election.You either support FPTP or you don't.  Consider both results invalid if you will, but you cannot pick and choose which election results you are prepared to accept and which you are not depending upon whether or not you happen to agree with the outcome.I'm sorry to say this Dawn but, assuming you understand the point Vanessa was making, you have begun to act like the politicians you so admire (at least when they are wearing blue rosettes).  Trust me, this is not a compliment.

Phil Andrews ● 5240d

Eh?  Bond market?I was just asking whether you had a link to the poll you quoted.  I have looked at the Guardian website and cannot see anything resembling the figures you gave, so must assume I am looking in the wrong place.

Phil Andrews ● 5240d

Please put the correct facts,how many UNITE members did not vote to strike,a larger % than those who voted!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5240d

Say what you will, however our Bond Market is running higher then elsewhere, pretty good eh!

Dawn Hardy ● 5240d

Well! there you go Phil have a peek.

Dawn Hardy ● 5240d

I cannot quote you however another poll by the Guardian/ICM in yesterdays Guardian show that the previous poll was not a one off, it still showed 44% for David Cameron 23% Ed Miliband.

Dawn Hardy ● 5240d

Here's some number crunching to get your mind around. 23% of Unite T.U. members eligible to vote who voted for the industrial action on Nov. 30, which David Cameron  cited as proof it was "wrong to strike and to close so many classrooms and potential services".23% of U.K. population eligible to vote who voted for Conservatives in the 2010 general election, as a result of which David Cameron is happy to serve as Prime Minister.

Vanessa Smith ● 5241d

I must admit I was kind of wondering how the three major parties had managed to win the confidence of 113% of the electorate between them, perhaps a tad concerned as I was that this did rather seem to squeeze out the smaller parties.I am still intrigued by the claim of 33% support for Nick Clegg.  The only way I am able to reach this figure from the Guardian article is by subtracting the -19 percentage points for his personality rating from the 52% who do not think Cameron is doing a good job.Politicians and their faithful followers would definitely appear to be possessed of a wholly different mindset from the rest of us, but I guess the essential message to DC from all this would be - do you feel lucky?

Phil Andrews ● 5241d

I presume Dawn is referring to this, though the numbers appear different :-)http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/25/cameron-approval-rating-grows-poll

Guy Lambert ● 5241d

Do you have a link to this latest poll Dawn?

Phil Andrews ● 5241d

Phil, I was pleasantly shocked at the Guardian Poll results, it is exactly as I said even the BBC and SKY came in out of the cold and publicized the figures!!!Popular and who was doing their best for the UK,got to give the Prime Minister his due he is the first one in 40 years to say NO!! to Europe, fingers crossed he will continue to put us first, good man he can come round for tea and cakes anytime!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5241d

You should all understand that if Europe was the way ahead for England then I would be the first to shout go ahead, however it isn't as we would all see if our media were to show exactly how Europeans are reacting to the austerity measures that are trickling in!!!It is all very well for politicians to take this very undemocratic measure,perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick, does not this proposed new treaty take all decisions through Brussels for every country bound within Europe and the Euro Zone. However it does nothing to elevate the crisis, just binds countries into a no hope no growth situation!!!I am still immensely proud to be British and I want to maintain that.

Dawn Hardy ● 5241d

Mix more coca cola with it!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5241d

I haven't seen the poll Dawn but are you sure you've read that correctly?The Lib Dems are not having a good time of it in the opinion polls or in by-elections lately and I would be astounded if they had suddenly overtaken Labour. Or are we measuring things by some other criteria, such as personal popularity, perceived trustworthiness or which of the three you'd rather take home to mum?I guess what I'm saying is that these answers don't mean an awful lot unless we know what the question was.

Phil Andrews ● 5241d

So unfair. Dawn shows a stunning grasp of history and the situation in Europe - GB's 1000 years of democracy and mainland Europeans not being allowed to complain. I learn something with every post: in the David Giles class

Guy Lambert ● 5241d

What utter b****cks.

Vanessa Smith ● 5241d

It was great to see in the Guardian Poll that David Cameron is running at 48 points Nick Clegg running at 33 points and Ed Miliband running at 32 points, it would appear that we were all pleasantly surprised at Mr Cameron's stance over this ridiculous treaty that the Merkozy couple tried to get him to sign.Keep up the fight against totalitarianism Mr Cameron we British guard our Democracy and Sovereignty well as you do!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5241d

OK TW8er's this is what happened across Europe that we have not had on our TV News.Week coming up to Christmas,France has disruptions in Airports-Security Staff on Strike for 1 week.Belgium-Trains on Strike for nearly a week.Portugal-Airline Strike.Italy-Italian Members of Parliament demonstrate against austerity measures with whistles and banners.We then have the little un Sarkozy infuriating the Turkish President by bringing genocide charges going back to 1915,apparently this is OK to do because France(Vichey) admitted Collaboration with the Germans in their Parliament.We did not know that did we!! From '39 to late 41 we were completely on our own!!!This little election gambit resulted in the Turkish President signing a contract with Mr Putin to allow Russia to put in Oil or Gas? Pipe Lines across Turkey, Sarko must understand that he cannot continue to insult countries or Heads of Governments without consequences!!.

Dawn Hardy ● 5241d

Good morning one and all I wish you all.A VERY HAPPY HEALTHY AND PEACEFUL NEW YEAR!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5241d

Not in the open air pool....

Phil Andrews ● 5248d

Do mind the current when swimming it does tend to pull you under!! from experience.

Dawn Hardy ● 5248d

Cheep!Cheep! Gran Canaria !!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5248d

Oura, near Albufeira.

Phil Andrews ● 5249d

Canaries going cheap then?

Phil Andrews ● 5249d

The only I've been to Portugal (1991) it was 250 odd Escudos to the Pound.Where abouts are you Phil?

Keith Iddon ● 5249d

In the Canaries it used to be 208 Pesetas to the pound, much more competitive,we used to go 2 to 3 times a year because it was so cheap.

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

Thanks Keith, I probably will before I leave but the Sagres is tasting very good tonight.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

Have a good holiday Phil and quaff a glass or two of lovely Port for me.

Keith Iddon ● 5250d

It is slightly better value than earlier in the year due to the declining Euro but definitely more expensive than it was seven years ago when we started coming here.A litre of Sagres here in the complex is €5, but in town the same could probably be bought for €3 so it still compares favourably with home.  Still, nothing is too much to help out my European bretheren in their hour of need.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

I know I am showing my age but I remember when Portugal was really good value when it had escudos rather than the euro. I have been going there for many years and everytime I have been there lately it has been more expensive.Now that Portugal is in the euiro it cannot trade itself out of trouble by offering the likes of Phil Andrews and myself cheap holidays or cheap anything else.The European Parliament is of course more or less a complete waste of time. It is just a very expensive talking shop. All the real decisions are made by the unelected European Commission and the Council of Ministers i.e Merkozy and a few vassals.

David Giles ● 5250d

DawnI'm surprised you haven't commented on the fact that MEPs are able to take coachloads of their mates on jollies to the continent under the guise of it being an educational visit.  That really is a scandal, it's costing taxpayers millions and all the political parties are at it.Anyway, it's been nice chatting with you and the old goat but I'm off to spend some euros at the bar to help prop up the Portuguese economy.  Uma caneca por favor.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

This is the kind of thing that I greatly resent, apparently we  are to be granted favorably by the European Commission to be able to test both foreign Doctors and Nurses on their ability to speak wait for it "English" isn't that just great. We can all now breath a sigh of relief that our foreign medicos will now understand both instructions and us!!!When you consider that even now we are being dictated to by Brussels, it would have gotten much worse if David Cameron had of signed that treaty.

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

Oh! my gosh you have found me out,I actually paid to be a Prefect and to show good marks to my Victorian father!!!I wondered who would fall into my trap, our forefathers did such a dreadful job in the three quarters of the world that they were in, did they not,YOU are a bloody disgrace and this is the last time I will converse with you, you old goat!!! from your stance obviously your ancestors were obviously missionaries!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

It wasn't my intention to bring religion into the debate per se, but I thought it prudent to qualify anything that may have sounded vaguely supportive of Cromwell because he was responsibile for some appalling acts of savagery as well as being a democrat of sorts.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

Census = democracy?! The term "democracy" is associated with the right to vote which was only achieved for all adult males and females in "great britain" in 1928. All that fighting for empire was about rape and pillage of India, Africa and elsewhere, not in pursuit of democracy!Dawn, were you the class dunce at school?

John Connelly ● 5250d

DawnI'm not sure whether your post was addressed to me but as it followed mine I'll assume it was.I don't have to answer for the Lib Dems or for Labour, because I'm not a member or supporter of either, but what I don't do is Tweedle Dee Tweedle Dum politics, where one "side" can do or say nothing right and the other can do or say nothing wrong.  People like Mr Giles live in this little bubble world so it is to be expected of them (we used to have a Labour poster on here who was of a similar ilk until he got himself banned), but you always gave me the impression of being an active community type person and as such I find your seemigly unconditional championing of one of the big political tribes depressing.  For goodness' sake when you strip away the rhetoric and the style of delivery there is barely a fag paper's width between the two of them.I have some sympathy for the Lib Dems locally because they are community-focused and conduct themselves in a more honourable way than the bigger parties. However I actually share David Giles' view that they should pull out of this government, although not his apparent belief that David Cameron has divine powers that override electoral law.By all means criticise my opinions if you think they are wrong but please don't insult me by associating me with any of the big political parties.  I have a mind of my own and can think for myself.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

1066 became the time of Democracy as far as I am concerned. When a French King William the Conqueror conquered  our armies and killed King Harold with an arrow in his eye,this was the very first time a Census took place which we still do today. Before that each county was in itself a kingdom ruled by an individual King!!If you wish to be pedantic then ENGLAND has been around for 1000 years,Scotland,Ireland until 1916,also Wales well you tell me where they came about!!Why? do you always have to bring RELIGION into a debate.

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

"Great Britain" has been a Democracy for over 1000 years apart from the Cromwell yearsDawn"Great Britain" has not been in existence for anything like 1000 years and for all Cromwell's faults (and they were many, especially if you were a Catholic) his years were the only ones in which England wasn't ruled by a hereditary Head of State.  You have a strange idea of what constitutes democracy.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

So you are all for completely joining Europe also giving our voice away Oh!! by the way you forgot the 13 year Labour debacle!!!My vote is given freely, why? have I voted conservative all these many years because I have not and will not be indoctrinated by party politics, of course I take them to task when I consider something is wrong however I am able to do this because we are a Democracy. In Europe the Media are forbidden to criticize their politicians, here thank goodness we are not, if David Cameron had signed that blasted treaty we would have been well on the way to being curtailed on what we write!!!Have you counted how many millionaires there are within the Labour party both in the Houses of Parliament and Lords, if you want to be honest about it, count just how many from all parties, list them and then get back!!!Incidentally the Corporation Tax will be forth coming HMRC will now have no choice but to do what they should have done in the first place. Poor *ods probably got lost the first time a corporate lawyer showed his head.

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

The worst Prime Minister since Lord Liverpool. Instead of seeking the mainstream in Europe he took his party into a Pan-European alliance dominated by racists, homophobes and Holocaust-deniers. Why is he doing nothing to claw back the £25 billion in taxes owed by the tax-avoiding british multinationals?ANSWER: The rich are David's chums. You, Dawn, are one of the mugs who vote for him but count for nothing in his circles.

John Connelly ● 5250d

I am actually not against Europeans,believe it or not we have many European friends, however what I am against is being governed by Brussels with Ms.Merkel at the forefront,the idea of our taxes being incorporated with other nations.If you think about it logically what did our forefathers fight and die for, the preservation of our FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY WORLDWIDE!!!"Great Britain" has been a Democracy for over 1000 years apart from the Cromwell years, I am proud to be a part of that history and I will do anything that I can to ensure that my great grandchildren when they come know what a great nation we were and still are.If that makes me a Euro phobic then what can I say, bring it on!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

For goodness sake the only ones the Lib Dems support are themselves, Labour are absolutely useless they never ever give a definitive answer they also will not or cannot say how they could do better.Even you do not say how you would have reacted to the Merkozy duo, is being humiliated and being expected to do as you are told without a modicum of respect shown to you (that is what our Prime Minister had to endure)"okay then" because they not only insulted him they insulted us!!!David Cameron is our last chance on coming good, he is to be admired not stomped on. Given the support he deserves he could and would have done a lot better, if Lib Dem are part of a coalition then they should vote accordingly not only what they wish it to be. They should stand behind him for the good of the UK not themselves!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

I guess "tout suite" is a little too continental given your Europhobia Dawn?

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

Not at all Dawn, but it certainly taught me a lot about the way in which the big parties conduct themselves.  David clearly thinks coalition is about allowing his partners to support a Conservative government.  If you look back through this forum you will see he took a similar view when his party and the ICG decided to work together.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

Doh! http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23646080-french-financiers-go-home-to-6000-a-month-benefits.do

Tony Wood ● 5250d

Do you honestly believe that we will no longer trade with Europe,because Mr Cameron used his Veto, at this moment in our great City of London we have just over 300 Thousand French Nationals working I could keep going with all the other nationalities but I can see you get the point.Perhaps it would be a good thing, one that would jump start our own infrastructure, rebuild our ruined industries and put the whole of our unemployed back into work!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

Yes Phil You're right,It's blatantly obvious,and something I hadn't considered....Thankyou!Whilst Your at it can you explain why,in Davids list of Camerons options their appears to me a glaring ommision in the possible outcomes,was it just that he didn't want to state the unstatable or hadn't he considered it?

Tony Wood ● 5250d

Your little sojourn on LBH Council within a coalition has really embittered you hasn't it!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

Appreciate it if you could expound on the debates that David Cameron has missed Mr Connelly. He is quite rightly concerned about the UK so why on earth should he have given both our sovereignty and governing powers over to Brussels.Can you imagine the absolute furor that he would have come back to, it was not a matter of placating back benches it was what was the right thing to do!!He is by golly sticking to his guns and can only be admired for doing so, A German Minister came over yesterday to "talk" 30 Billion Euros worth, David Cameron has reiterated that we would not give this amount to bail out Europe, quite rightly too, we ourselves have problems have you seen any other country willing to give us a few bob.Leave the man alone he is doing what should have been done a few decades ago.

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

Perhaps all Politicians should start to listen to the people, you give a whole lot of credence as to what can and cannot be done, however if everyone out of the political sphere decided on a general election then by golly there would be one toot sweet!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

I really cannot see why Nick Clegg is against the 150 pound married couples allowance, unless of course he is hoping that we will all be silly enough to forget that he reneged big time on David Cameron over his Veto of this ridiculous new treaty. Quite frankly being married gives us penalties not money in the bank, so every little does help!!! The man is not to be trusted. I whole heartedly agree with all your points!

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

On a late nightly-early morning basis you can see Europeans demonstrating about not only the severe austerity measures being proposed but the loss of their sovereignty, most importantly I believe is being governed by Brussels. Put all together and it is surely going to fail.

Dawn Hardy ● 5250d

No Tony, David is right.  Mr Cameron has only appointed Lib Dems to his Cabinet out of the goodness of his heart.  Nothing to do with his party not having a majority of its own in the House.Mr Cameron should sack the Lib Dems from his government and continue running the country with one made up solely of Conservatives.  Then the Lib Dems will be sorry they didn't follow Conservative policy when they had the chance.

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

This is exactly what Cameron did when he ducked out of serious European debates to avoid a confrontation with his own antediluvian back benchers.

John Connelly ● 5250d

That's more like it David.

Tony Wood ● 5250d

Don't go bringing logic into it Phil.

Tony Wood ● 5250d

Constitutionally the Prime Minister decides who is in the Cabinet. Therefore the Prime Minister can sack any  minister he wishes to sack.If that minister happens to be a Lib Dem, then he will probably ask the Lib Dem leader to nominate a replacement. If the Lib Dems don't like it, they can always withdraw from the Government. As it is, some of them are not really playing a constructive role right now. It seems to me that some Lib Dem ministers are constantly putting their own party political interests ahead of the national interest.

David Giles ● 5250d

I think the Lib Dems would have something to say if the Prime Minister were to sack their ministers and replace them with Conservatives.  I rather suspect that having Lib Dems on the Cabinet would have been part of the coalition agreement.  Doh!

Phil Andrews ● 5250d

Dawn is correct. The Merozy deal has been seen by the markets as being ineffective. It will not and cannot save the euro

David Giles ● 5251d

As the two need one another if their coalition expedition is to continue, it is become less clear whether Nick is the real rent boy in Downing Street. Could he be the dominant partner in reality?

John Connelly ● 5251d

Phil,David Cameron can always fire the Lib Dem ministers he no longer has confidence in.Being nice to the Labour Party is always a possibility. It is after all the season of goodwill.

David Giles ● 5251d

"The Lib Dems have now broken all the rules about collective cabinet responsibility and can no longer be regarded as reliable coalition partners."It really is a shame that this forum doesn't have a webcam attached so that I could have seen whether you managed to keep a straight face when typing the above.You also still don't seem to get the fact that it is no longer within the Prime Minister's gift to call a snap election.  To do so requires either a vote of No Confidence in the government (which David Cameron is hardly likely to suggest) or the support of two thirds of the House.  If you want a general election you need to start being nice to the Labour Party.

Phil Andrews ● 5251d

The Lib Dems have now broken all the rules about collective cabinet responsibility and can no longer be regarded as reliable coalition partners.Clegg's incredible U turn after first supporting David Cameron's veto of the Merkozy prposals shows that he can no longer be trusted. It is quite obvious that Clegg and the Lib Dems are cravenly subservient to their masters in the federalist European Movement. His latest opposition to the Conservatives' plans to support the marriage and the family through the tax system (as is common in most other EU countries) shows how out of touch he is with responsible public opinion.Clegg is obviously looking for a big job in the EU Commission when he loses his Sheffield seat at the next election. Cable doesn't care because he is going to retire soon in any case. Huhne is obviously preoccupied with his personal problems and will also lose his Eastleigh seat at the next election.Mr Cameron can sack his Coalition partners, call a General Election and win an overall majority. Given the current Conservative lead in the polls and the feeble Labour Party leadership that is a realistic possibility.Or the Lib Dems could split with the Liberal element joining the Conservatives and the Socialist element joining Labour.Or the electorate can sack the Lib Dems at the next General Election.

David Giles ● 5251d

There will be more of this to come in many countries -and Poland is not even in the euro. Austerity measures and other policies dictated by Merkozy will not be popular in many European countries

David Giles ● 5252d

I taped the Euro MEP's on BBC last evening, watched it today even then the Labour MEP could not or would not give a decisive answer when asked if Labour would have voted for the new treaty or used the veto. Once again it was "we would have done it differently"however as usual they do not say how.This argument has somewhat lost it's way, the idea of being governed by Brussels is not up for debate by many many people all over Europe, it is all very well the politicians signing our Sovereignty and Democracy away without asking if it what the populace want, as you can see from the demonstrations around Europe it is not being well met, even Mr Sarkozy is meeting with problems on his election run.

Dawn Hardy ● 5252d

If it is drivel as you say then why do you not pick it to pieces piecemeal and make a good argument, will this go through I wonder.

Dawn Hardy ● 5252d

I can't respond to you because I am being censored!!!!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5252d

I have caught you out?No, you have demonstrated that you frequently right drivel.Please stop.

Alan Clark ● 5253d

Well you have caught me out, I could say that I incorrectly put a good view of the Banks if I did then I suppose I shall have to stand by it. Okay suit you want to see me stand on my head.

Dawn Hardy ● 5254d

If you don't know and your the expert where does that leave us, Dee is like most men he prefers Snooker!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5254d

No, Dawn, you wrote:"Without our friends the bankers and traders we would have no NHS also other institutions"Quite apart from the opposite argument having more merit (because we've shovelled out tems of billions to prop up the banks we have no dosh for the NHS), it does clearly state you see the banks as jolly good friends.So why are you now saying you do not?Or do you find that you write drivel without worrying about what actually that drivel states?

Alan Clark ● 5254d

Not me Dawn, me not being very bright I can't really work out how Mr Cameron can sack his coalition partners and still retain a majority.Maybe David can tell us?

Phil Andrews ● 5255d

Well it would appear that Ms.Merkel has problems in her own Parliament, one of her coalition MP's resigned because of the new treaty, on Sky it has just come up that the Czech Prime Minister and Hungary are unlikely to agree to the new treaty changes unless the "Tax Harmonization" is dropped!!!Then we have Ireland who may have to hold a referendum which will fail. Sweden are also concerned about the Financial Transaction Tax.Next we have Denmark whose Prime Minister is also having problems with her coalition. Now that they have gone away and thought also discussed this proposal the doubts are creeping in, early this morning on Euro News Spain was demonstrating, let's face it they can't all be wrong.The amount of time and energy Merkozy have spent on this proposed new treaty would have been better spent in attempting to solve the Euro Crisis!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5255d

Perhaps with your expertise you could come up with the answer.

Dawn Hardy ● 5255d

"Lib Dems will only vote in the house on what will benefit them as a party as they have done in the past, not what is best for both our economy and country."You do realise this is politics you're talking about don't you? Cameron has done exactly that over the European debate so why should the LibDems be any different?

Vanessa Smith ● 5255d

Okay, so by what process do you feel David Cameron can remove Nick Clegg as his Deputy?

Phil Andrews ● 5255d

If you had read the thread as I had written it, it was the Market Traders that I wrote about, If the Markozy couple have their way with the transaction tax we will be the main losers as the traders will leave London and Birmingham also other locations dotted around the UK.Banks need to be regulated and a beady eye kept on them at all times as well we know from the RBS fiasco.

Dawn Hardy ● 5255d

Obviously the coalition came about because the Tories did not have enough seats to pass measures, therefore they joined with the Lib Dems however as they have shown that they are completely and utterly pro European and will do anything to get us completely into Europe it can no longer work!!A Prime Minister should without any doubt what so ever be able to depend on his Deputy, it is quite blatantly obvious that David Cameron cannot depend on Nick Clegg therefore the next 3 years like the first 2 years will be a complete waste of time and effort for Mr Cameron. Lib Dems will only vote in the house on what will benefit them as a party as they have done in the past, not what is best for both our economy and country.

Dawn Hardy ● 5255d

You cannot be serious man!

Vanessa Smith ● 5255d

Who are your friends the bankers? You certainly are a true friend. You have managed to forgive and forget the last 3 years - and now you're mates again.

Alan Clark ● 5256d

DawnI'm not honestly not trying to poke fun here, but do you understand why it is that Mr Cameron has a Liberal Democrat as his Deputy?

Phil Andrews ● 5256d

David Cameron should have a Deputy Prime Minister that he can depend upon,Nick Clegg and his party have made it quite obvious that they are going to rule against him at every opportunity, well Mr.Cameron you do have the solution within your grasp because if they are not with you in Parliament then the Coalition is of no use, so SACK him as "Deputy Prime Minister" out of hand,the man continues to undermine you. Every time you take one step forward for us he pushes you one step back.Worried don't be if necessary take it to we the people who will stand behind you especially as it is a European question!!!You have shown that you have the backbone to lead now show us that you will not tolerate his continued attack on you.Incidentally last week you were 1% behind Labour today you are 2% in front. Also Mr Sarkozy referred to us as Great Britain yesterday not that little island, does the little un have regrets it would look as if his re-election is in doubt.,

Dawn Hardy ● 5256d

How is that I see this kind of demonstration against the new treaty on Euro News and yet not an inkling on the bias BBC who boasts worldwide coverage, when you consider that it is you and I who pay their wages with 145 pounds per year TV Licence one would think that they would give us a far broader look at Europe, we are after all a member of the European Union and these things are of utmost importance to us. Why? because it shows that although the European Politicos sign away their sovereignty their own people see it as a no go!!!One Polish man was saying"That they had just learned that that Sarkozy guy wants to take our sovereignty away and we are to be ruled by Brussels" his words not mine.This reaction is happening all over Europe we are just not being put into the picture by the TV Media, as it is so important they should start making reports that do include the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and not just the politicians!

Dawn Hardy ● 5256d

Absolutely right, the 500 Billion the ECB is faint heartedly going to use as a last resort to bail out hard up countries, does not come into effect until 2013, also using monies from the IMF is not acceptable that is there to aid 50 really desperately poor countries around the world not the EU.

Dawn Hardy ● 5257d

There is such a fuss about David Cameron having done the right thing by using his Veto on this ridiculous new treaty, doom & gloom is sure to follow they say, and yet there are still 6 to 7 countries including Sweden,, Denmark,, Czech Republic also Hungary and others who may have signed a promissory note however that in effect is a great big MAYBE because they all had to go home and put this treaty before their own Parliaments as to whether it is acceptable for them to sign away both budgets and sovereignty.They most definitely need Parliamentary approval before signing up to the Euro-Plus treaty next March, and it is no good the commissars saying that they hope to have the treaty ready next week! It will not work; so many different European politicians have voiced their discontent. I really do not think that Angela Merkel & Nicolas Sarkozy are having a very good time at the moment, a little squabble is ongoing because Sarky does not want to include the loss of Sovereignty in his speech when canvassing the populace who will straight away lambaste him, and apparently he dismissed plans put forward by the Empress! To give the “new fiscal compact”treaty powers to enforce budget cuts and austerity.The issue of the loss of French budgetary sovereignty has become a central presidential election issue after the Socialist candidate Francios Hollande refused to accept any agreement that would enshrine spending limits in Frances constitution, Monsieur Hollande is standing against Sarky in the up coming April election!he has said that he would negotiate a new treaty if he gets in next year.If it is to be believed Sarky is running 15% behind already,our French compatriots are not happy!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5257d

We have had too much politics from Europe and not enough common sense economics.

Keith Iddon ● 5257d

"I'm confused now,if the Eurozone employs highly qualified economists,how the Hell did they get in the state they find themselves.."Perhaps Tony it is partly because ecomonics is an inexact science and the assumptions about the markets,which is what they and all who play the stock market make,were flawed.We don't actually KNOW anything ,we just think we know.If you have been fortunate on the stock market,good for you.But there is usually luck involved,notwithstanding gifts of prophecy.

Keith Iddon ● 5257d

"I stand corrected and humbled by your mountainous knowledge of all things economic."That's very nice of you thankyou,though I have to say I feel a bit restricted by the "economic" bit."Perhaps you could advise those highly qualified economists who advise the Eurozone and those who write in most of the newspapers and we can all get on with making some dosh."I'm confused now,if the Eurozone employs highly qualified economists,how the Hell did they get in the state that they find themselves,plus why do "those who write in most of the newspapers",have to write in newspapers,can't they make enough money on the Exchange instead of telling everyone else how to do it...weird that isn't it? 

Tony Wood ● 5257d

I was just checking. It seemed a bold statement. Or it may a reference to some personal friends...  one should keep an open mind.

Alan Clark ● 5257d

I stand corrected and humbled by your mountainous knowledge of all things economic.Perhaps you could advise those highly qualified economists who advise the Eurozone and those who write in most of the newspapers and we can all get on with making some dosh.

Keith Iddon ● 5257d

KeithEconomics is an exact science,it's the rubbish data economists use/or are given that causes the problems (S.I=S.O.). If you want to see perfect economics then pay attention next time your wife drags you to a supermarket,the mental computations they make are amazing. "You,and no body else,knows yet whether what Cameron did was a good thing,so why not cross your fingers?"So...it's good that he's got us into a situation where nobody at all knows how it will all turn out? A situation where crossing ones digits may help....well that's just great! Can't you see any correlation between this and the banking crisis,they crossed their fingers too,it's really blatantly obvious?"If you think you have the gift of prophecy and know  what's going to happen ,I'd get some money on the right stocks if I were you. That's basically how the market works."Ooooh you nasty person!   No I don't have the gift of prophecy,I do however have the gift of thought and bucket loads of life experience which sometimes I can pull together to form an opinion.It may not be the same as yours (that's fine by me) but never the less it is my opinion.  I'm fairly conversant with how the Stock Market works,but these days I've found a better place for my mountains of cash.:0)

Tony Wood ● 5257d

Alan, to answer your question - Yep! You get used to this sort of moronic rambling as the effects of the medication start to wear off!

Vanessa Smith ● 5257d

Tony,Economics is an inexact science so don't be surprised that there is a strong element of guess and double guess work in the markets.You,and no body else,knows yet whether what Cameron did was a good thing,so why not cross your fingers?If you think you have the gift of prophecy and know  what's going to happen ,I'd get some money on the right stocks if I were you. That's basically how the market works.

Keith Iddon ● 5257d

Our friends the bankers.Did I read that right?The tax they pay ....Did I read that right as well?This, on face value, appears to a minority view.

Alan Clark ● 5257d

"It goes deeper than that Tony.It does on the surface seem like only the banks will benefit,but that should have a knock on effect."    Keith... I'm well aware that it goes deeper than that (I generally leave diatribes to others) ,and yes I'm also aware of the "Knock On" effects of banking,we're all going to be paying for an indeterminate time for their last "KoE".  So for once I'm on the side of the 26 member states that think it might be a good thing to keep bankers on a tight leash preferably with a choke collar that's tighter than a tight thing...I don't like 'em,who does!"It's all largely guess work and keeping the fingers crossed."    What!!!???  Guesswork? I'm afraid my vocabulary is proving inadequate,suffice to say that both bankers and MPs get paid more than enough to come up with something more concrete than "Guesswork and the crossing of fingers"!"But they can keep their complicated rules,their hidden agendas and their slippery,scheming politicians and unelected bureaurocrats.We have enough of our own thankyou."  I agree to a certain extent but,physics (for e.g.) has complicated rules,the public don't need to understand too many of them,we employ physicists to sort them out for us.Yes the gravy train is too long and made up largely of people with no formal training in such matters...that's our fault for putting them there,and until we continualy question their actions and get a bit vociferous,that's the way it will stay. 

Tony Wood ● 5257d

Without our friends the bankers and traders we would have no NHS also other institutions, at least the tax they pay is accrued for our benefit and not Brussels.

Dawn Hardy ● 5258d

We were once isolated by German Military Might now we are supposedly to be yet again isolated by Germany's Financial Might, we survived before and we will do so again.Unless the ECB start buying the Bond Yields of financially insecure countries the EU will sink just like the Bismark!!!

Dawn Hardy ● 5258d

I have diligently watched Euro News who covered the "Summit" far better than our media and I saw no posturing, what I did see was David Cameron given the cold shoulder by a petulant Sarkozy because he did not get his own way and then the rest of the sheep followed.Why are you following the likes of Nick Clegg who did receive a phone call and all decisions were discussed before Mr Cameron went to Brussels only now does he consider it might do his party good to say that he is bitterly disappointed,he is not to be trusted when he phoned Heads of European States last week why? did he do so and what did he promise even though he had no right to do so.Douglas Alexander,Ed Miliband etc who are wrongly stating that he made this decision to placate his backbenches absolute nonsense, he did what was right both for our country and our economy,when you consider that we trade 50% of our imports from Europe do you honestly think that they would stop trading with us, be realistic IT IS NOT FINANCIALLY VIABLE FOR THEM TO DO SO!!We have been outside the tent for 10 years and we have survived as we will continue to do so.

Dawn Hardy ● 5258d

Many thanks for your expertise.

Dawn Hardy ● 5258d

It goes deeper than that Tony.It does on the surface seem like only the banks will benefit,but that should have a knock on effect.It's all largely guess work and keeping the fingers crossed.We will see what the markets say in the new year. Personally,I have no issue with the people of Europe and welcome them.But they can keep their complicated rules,their hidden agendas and their slippery,scheming politicians and unelected bureaurocrats.We have enough of our own thnkyou.

Keith Iddon ● 5258d

Or looking on the bright side,he may have just alienated ourselves from our largest trading partners.   We will see as you say,I just hope he has a plan A,plan B is no doubt to raise VAT and income tax to make up the shortfall.  Does anyone else find it just a tad ironic that this is being done to protect our friends the bankers,who'd have guessed it?

Tony Wood ● 5258d

Isolated? It could well be that we've just isolated ourselves from a creature that is uncureably diseased.Time will tell.

Keith Iddon ● 5258d

This is a classic case of party and self before the country. Cameron is a fool. Posturing around as some sort of tough guy may go down well with his Eurosceptic MPs and the Daily Torygraph and Sun and their assorted readers. We are no longer the island nation we once were and our future is in Europe whether we like it or not. Better to be in the tent p***ing out than outside p***ing in!

Vanessa Smith ● 5258d

david camerons belgrano moment

Robert A Field ● 5258d

Four legs good, two legs bad...four legs good, two legs bad...baaaa...baaaa...

Phil Andrews ● 5259d

Just on the issue of a general election, there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding amongst Conservative supporters on here that David Cameron can just call an election at any time of his choosing. Under the new rules this is not the case.  A general election could only be triggered by a vote of No Confidence in the government or at the request of two thirds of the House.  I guess if the Conservatives wanted an election then they and Labour could make two thirds between them (Labour would presumably not stand in the way of an early election if the possibility arose), but it is no longer within the PM's gift to simply call a snap election upon a whim.  And politicians from all sides who risk either deselection or electoral defeat are unlikely to be keen to jump before they really have to, so there would be much pressure on the party leaders to resist the temptation.

Phil Andrews ● 5259d

We have had nothing but doom and gloom from both the Douglas Alexander and Nick Clegg who funnily enough is “bitterly disappointed” that David Cameron made the right decision for the UK regarding this ridiculous new treaty. Can you imagine what the headlines would have been if he had given in and signed, we would have Ed Miliband shouting his head off saying that he did not care about our country and economy; unfortunately for Mr. Cameron it was a Catch 22 scenario, never the less he did the right thing by using his Veto.  The same attitude was used years ago when we left the EMF we were going bankrupt and all kinds of dire things were going to occur however none of this happened our bank rates went down and our economy went up of course it was hard for a while but succeed we did as we will this time..Why? Did Nick Clegg feel it necessary to phone at least 10 heads of state last week if it was his idea to undermine David Cameron he failed thank goodness?It is well past time that we had a Prime Minister who cares about the UK not what will be politically expedient for him personally, Paddy Ashdown said this morning in so many words that it was many years since a British Prime Minister said NO to Europe, it’s way past time that it was done, now it has, perhaps we will get some respect back.Here we all were 2 days back eagerly awaiting constructive input as to how the dynamic duo were going to instruct the rest of Europe on how to resolve the fiscal fiasco and what do they do, why insist that all heads of each country sign there Sovereignty and the right to rule themselves completely away.Prime Ministers may have signed however there populace will not be pleased a poll of 6 European Countries Germany & France included shows that in France 66% of the people do not want the Euro, in Germany 59% also do not want the Euro, what would be catastrophic is if the people decided that they had had enough and militants got in then we would surely have to worry greatly.David Cameron will have a hard time tomorrow in the House of Commons however he has backbone and if he sticks to his guns both there and in Europe he will win out. He also needs to watch Nick Clegg who on the Andrew Mar show this morning said that he would do all that he could to get us into Europe!!!  At the moment David Cameron is looking great at least 62% of the You Gove voters think so, so Mr. Cameron if they give you too much grief hold a General Election the Lib Dems are running at 8% in an election they lose at least half of their seats.

Dawn Hardy ● 5259d

I actually saw it on Euro news it was both insulting and embarrassing not only to David Cameron but to we as a Nation the little man in stilettos surely holds us in contempt.However this isolation doesn't mean jack *hit because we have always done our best when on our own and quite frankly if the little un keeps pushing we might just might hopefully pull away from the EU entirely, not before time I might add.

Dawn Hardy ● 5260d

Just seen a photo of the cheese breathed little sh*t blanking Cameron's hand shake again. I wish DC had patted him on the head and said 'Never mind,you'll be able to spend more time with your family in April'.

Keith Iddon ● 5260d

To start with a clean slate in Brussels the European Audit Commission should before the implementation of the new treaty signed by the 26 countries of the EU who will have to adhere to monetary rulings from Brussels do a really comprehensive audit of expenditure by them that has not been signed off  since it’s inception 17 years ago. Does that fact not worry any of them?

Dawn Hardy ● 5260d

Apparently Countries who get into debt (how are they going to get out of debt when the ECB will not buy their Bonds) however in future times when they are all hopefully Financially secure and perhaps then get into financial straits there will have been introduced sanctions based on a ‘political declaration of intent’ BUT it will not be legally binding therefore with an election of a new government it could be revoked.Will Nicolas Sarkozy be re-elected (April will tell) a newly elected French government could very well negate the treaty. Especially if the people are against it!

Dawn Hardy ● 5260d

Total agreement with you, the furor by Labour and Lib Dems would have been the same if he had signed, however it is good to know that for once a Prime Minister is concerned about our well being and is willing to show a lot of bottle(grandson's input) and stand against the dynamic duo.

Dawn Hardy ● 5260d

I am pleasantly surprised by David Cameron's willingness to stand up for Britain and a Free Europe.This may be Britiain's finest hour since Britain stood alone against the German National Socialist Workers Party in 1940.

David Giles ● 5261d

I am pleasantly surprised by David Cameron's willingness to stand up for Britain and a Free Europe.This may be Britiain's finest hour since Britain stood alone against the Getman National