Forum Topic

Westminster control-freaks to dictate the terms of Scottish referendum

Apparently the Scottish people are too stupid to understand three questions including one relating to devolved powers that stop short of full independence:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16478121So it's not just us our own politicians have such a low opinion of.

Phil Andrews ● 5230d31 Comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1IM37OY0Kg

Tony Wood ● 5224d

Yes John ,this country and indeed Britain, is forced to be far too London-centric.The rural communities also suffer greatly from a lack of will to invest in rural infrastructure and public transport in villages all over Britain.

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

Quite true inasfar as it goes, but what you could also have mentioned is that this concentration on London has actually had disbenefits for some of those living down here also.Think in particular of the housing situation.  It wasn't many years ago that councils in South Wales were advertising for tenants in the local newspapers and homes in the North East were being demolished because there was nobody to occupy them, whilst at the same time here in London we had ten people in housing need for every unit of housing available.One cannot blame people from outside London for coming here for work if here is where the work is (relatively speaking), but it is depressing that successive governments have not had the foresight to invest significantly in other parts of the country.  Advances in Internet technology should have provided a perfect opportunity to reverse the gravitation to the capital as it has never been easier to conduct business remotely.

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

Having lived in the North of England for a number of years in the past, I am aware that many people there dislike what they see as the concentration of expenditure on "bloody southerners".England will have held the Olympics on 3 occasions after this year - not in Manchester or even Birmingham, but always in London. Lancashire is the home of English football in terms of international success - but fans have to travel to London for cup finals.When coal and steel were major nationalised industries all the top jobs were in Victoria, many miles from where anything was produced or anyone got their hands dirty.London pensioners get free travel on trains and tubes 24 hours a day. Elsewhere, it is usually just bus travel. But then, as Northerners point out, London has its own government (the Mayor) with powers not available anywhere else in Britain.Over 80% of investment in public transport is currently in London and the South-East, and most large English cities envy the public transport they could expect if they were a German city of similar size.Personally, I believe the tensions in the UK would be less if fewer public resources were invested in the London area and the rest of the country (UK) got a fairer share. I was amused when the London-based English Broadcasting Corporation decided to move much of its activities to Salford and caused distress among the chattering classes down here.

John Connelly ● 5225d

Indeed Phil .I think a lot of this hand wringing about being English,about English history and about our 'identity' is very much a south east England phenomenon.I think the Whitehall mandarins have nothing better to do sometimes than to try to make the English so unsure about themselves as to accept any old rubbish.Generally I think northerners have no conflict about who they are not ashamed to proclaim themselves as English.The idea of being British takes a back seat.You only have to look at the small towns and villages on St.George's Day etc.

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

It is when the English feel unable to celebrate their own culture that they are at their most resentful towards others.  We resent the EU for wanting more union and we resent the Scots for wanting less union.  Why?  Because of an understandable gut feeling that few of us can put into words that our own political representatives are not to be trusted and are shafting us.Encouraging patriotic feeling without the xenophobia and narrow-mindedness that sometimes accompanies it is in my view the best way of garnering a wider respect.  But before that can be achieved we must first and above all else be able to feel comfortable about our own lot.

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

Agreed Phil.I am not a great flag waver but neither do I like the naysaying that goes on about the English and the denial of our history.Maybe we could call Scotland going its own way 'undependence'from Britain :-)

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

I'm up for that.  There has been a huge increase in English consciousness over the past few decades.  Go to an England football match today and supporters wave the St. George's Cross.  Time was it was always the Union Flag.St. George's Day is also making something of a comeback.Having a strong sense of one's own identity must surely make it easier for us to respect the aspirations of others?

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

Perhaps the English could get the chance to vote on English independence from the Scots.

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

And quite rightly so in this instance, surely?

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

What does it matter what the rest of us think Phil when we will not be asked ? What we think is academic.

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

Then surely the rest of the UK should be backing Scottish independence?

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

Granted Phil but nowhere near enough to pay the debts incurred by their banks and to pay for the tuition fees and prescriptions that we subsidise.Or am I wrong? The rest of the UK seem to pay for their indulgences without getting any benefit back it would seem to me.I wouldn't rock the boat too much if I Scottish.They seem to be getting a pretty good deal as it is.

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

I think the Scots pay taxes too Keith.

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

I suspect that what they really want is that devo-whatsit that enshrines their membership of the union,gives them more power and also the life blood of endless subsidies from us sassenachs.They are canny alright,claiming that 'their' oil is worth £6 billion to the UK when English,Welsh and N Irish taxpayers put in £60 billion propping up their banks.I wonder what % of the national debt they would be willing to shoulder if they were independent?

Keith Iddon ● 5225d

Whatever the economic argument it is ultimately for the Scots to decide.  If the English political establishment and media tries in its time-honoured way to subvert that process it will make the case for independence far more emphatically that the SNP ever could.

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

"The economic arguments against independence are overwhelming."  I'm not so sure about that, evidently under international convention,should Scotland become independent 90% of UK oil and gas would be within Scottish territory. If that stood up in court Scotland would (per capita) become the sixth richest country in the World.

Tony Wood ● 5225d

PhilIn my experience Scots have never been lacking in self-respect. The Scots  have a very strong national identity which is well recognised world wide.  Scotland's identity and respect is stronger because it is part of the UK than independent.There is much more to nationhood than having a totally separate government. In any case Scotland already has Home Role in many respects.The economic arguments against independence are overwhelming.

David Giles ● 5225d

Possibly though even if they accept the economic argument against independence there will be some Scots who believe there are things that are more important than pounds and pence.  Like dignity and self-respect for example.

Phil Andrews ● 5225d

Irrespective of who calls the Referendum, I suspect there are still enough canny Scots left North of the Border who can do their sums and decide that Scotland canna nae afford Independence and dinna really want it when push comes to shove.

David Giles ● 5226d

The Scottish Labour Party has a motion before Holyrood insisting that civic groups be given a say in the referendum debate!  The shamelessness and sheer front of these big party politicians absolutely beggars belief.

Phil Andrews ● 5228d

It would appear that once again the political establishment has closed ranks in the face of a threat to the old order:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16503307Alex Salmond must be doing something right then.

Phil Andrews ● 5228d

I don't believe that Scottish independence would lead to a permanent Conservative government in England.  What would need to happen would be some kind of realignment on the "progressive" wing of politics, and that would occur naturally within a decade, probably sooner.What it would mean is that the Labour Party as an institution would need to become a little less precious about itself and to begin to think in terms of policies rather than just party, possibly even reconsidering its attitude towards others outside of its hallowed walls.  For me and many others that would be a good thing, for the party purists I guess less so.

Phil Andrews ● 5229d

Ok by me.

Keith Iddon ● 5229d

Salmond and the SNP would indeed be redundant in their present form in an independent Scotland.In relation to Keith's point about the West Lothian question, what is often missed in English accounts of devolution is that all the devolved assemblies - Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland - are elected by a mix of constituencies and party lists to ensure that they are more reflective of the popular vote than Westminster's first-past-the-post.This would mean an English Assembly/Parliament would be needed.

John Connelly ● 5229d

Just ocassionally there's a post that stands out like a beacon,yours John is one such...well thought out!!!  I had twigged the possibility that Cameron was aiming to permanently do away with the 40ish Scottish Labour MPs in Westminster,but missed the Stadium,High Speed Rail and Abu Dhabi connections....damn it's blindingly obvious when pointed out!  What I find possibly a bit ironic is that if Scotland goes for independence,I suspect that it's politics will rapidly swing right, if they are voting for a home grown conservative party (small c intended). There will after all be no need for a party whose raison d'etre is independence,a bit like Churchill after WW2.

Tony Wood ● 5230d

Whether the vote is yes or no,I think the relationship between the 2 countries should be re-evaluated and a solution to 'the Lothian question' be thrashed out.More power to the assembly in Scotland but less power for it in England.Fair deal?

Keith Iddon ● 5230d

Cameron seems keen on ensuring Salmond wins any future referendum. After all, he makes his pitch on the day the Cabinet meet at the English Olympics site and the day before his party announces another massively expensive rail project to benefit southern England.His monkey Osborne takes the initiative in arguing that foreign investment into Scotland is at risk if the referendum debate runs on. Meanwhile,Salmond is in Abu Dhabi where he is about to announce a huge investment deal for Scotland in alternative energy, a deal that will demonstrate the dishonesty of Osborne and Cameron.Meanwhile, everyone in Scotland is clear that there are no plans to drop the Pound despite the bullshit about them having to join the Euro, and a Liberal Democrat MEP in Scotland is warning the people up there that if they vote for independence they run the risk of ending up with public services like the Danes and the Swedes (if only!).Is this a grand act of subversion by the Coalition designed to ensure the end of the Labour menace in English politics? Very Machiavellian!

John Connelly ● 5230d

Having to join the Euro - There's the rub alright, I used to think splitting the union was mad too, after all there is strength in numbers, I do wonder if Salmond and his merry crew have thought this right through, but hey ho! They'll be able to go to hell in a handcart of their own choosing, and at least they won't be bale to blame us for a change!

Vanessa Smith ● 5230d

Agreed but the English,the majority shareholders and stakeholders in the Britain,will not have a say no matter what.What if the majority of us don't want to keep subsidising them and want a clean break? After all,one could ask 'what have they done for us lately?'.Maybe Cameron is trying to take the initiative by telling them to bring it on,tho' who knows what's really going on.Personally,I think for a variety of reasons, that it would be a shame to split the union,but if that is what they want we can then stop spending our money on them and they can go to Europe for subsidies to keep them afloat.After of course joining the euro.I'm sure Merkozy will be glad of another Ireland to give money to.

Keith Iddon ● 5230d

Cameron seems to be doing his level best to head off a 'Yes' vote for Scottish independence. To be honest I doubt many English people give a monkey's one way or the other. Cameron needs to be careful by taking this snotty attitude he's likely to push more Scots into voting to support for anything Salmond comes up with. There are a lot of problems with Scotland striking out on its own but it needs to be their decision, the Nationalists do have a mandate to have the referendum in the latter part of this administration, if I were Dave I'd butt out.

Vanessa Smith ● 5230d