Forum Topic

Liam Fox wants to make it easier for bosses to hire and fire

In the wake of crisis comes opportunity.  In this instance an opportunity to exploit:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17123137

Phil Andrews ● 4916d23 Comments

Oh yes, thanks Ian - Yes Vanessa, he will probably write a book and make a mint at that, too!  :-)

Sarah Felstead ● 4905d

Sorry. Had a little turn.Luv ya...  xxx

Ian Silver ● 4905d

Write a book dear. Bound to be a major fest.I'm listening to CSNY at the mo so don't really give a ****

Ian Silver ● 4905d

Sorry, some corrections, I shouldn’t be posting whilst blood sugar is low!Oh Vanessa, haven’t you worked with people in senior management positions who were ‘protected’ by grades below them, as they eked out their time until they retired?One (I was told about) was found a job to keep him going after a spell in an office where He kept disappearing up to His office giggling, then popping back out again into the closed file cabinets, and repeating the same.After a few days of this behaviour He appeared with new alphabetical labels for the closed file drawers with sexual innuendos – ‘B – BRA’  ‘T – TIT’; ‘TIT – TITTY’ only much worse.  I saw some of these which is why I was filled in with the story.One I personally witnessed was another Senior Manager who loudly shouted out at the staff “Whatever you do don’t tell John’ (his direct bosses name, which I have changed, so sorry to any Johns reading this).I didn’t know whether this was because his boss didn’t want to be bothered with day to day issues as he was locked in his tower with only certain people being allowed to speak to him, or whether the poor Man just simply could not cope.The odd occasion I had a conversation with “John” he seemed pretty with it but was probably unaware that he wasn’t being filled in with information, or the information he was given was slanted towards what his juniors wanted him to hear which I personally have good reason to suspect, was often far from the truth.If I were to wonder about this I would say that if he ever doubted what he was being told, or wanted to check the information, he could have nipped out and found out what was going on, then challenged his colleagues.The extra time at work would give a person a more substantial lump sum pay out and pension.I imagine somebody in the position of the ex-minister would be allowed a quiet job for a period of time to keep him going.I think you are right Vanessa, a mere mortal such as in the ones I have mentioned, without this unconditional support, would have been pursued for inefficiency in the least and it would have been done loudly and with gusto.

Sarah Felstead ● 4905d

Oh Vanessa, haven’t you worked with people in senior management positions who were ‘protected’ by grades below them, as they eked out their time until they retired?One (I was told about) was found a job to keep him going after a spell in an office where he kept disappearing up to his office giggling, then popping back out again into the closed file cabinets, and repeating the same.After a few days of this behaviour he appeared with new labels for the closed file drawers with sexual innuendos – ‘B – BRA’  ‘T – TIT’, only much worse.  I saw some of these which is why I was filled in with the story.One (I witnessed) was another Senior Manager who loudly shouted ‘Whatever you do don’t tell *****’ to his staff.  I didn’t know whether this was because his boss didn’t want to be bothered with day to day issues as he was locked in his tower with only certain people being allowed to speak to him, or whether the poor Man just simply could not cope.The odd occasion I had a conversation with him he seemed pretty with it but was probably unaware that he wasn’t being filled in with information, or the information he was given was slanted towards what his juniors wanted him to hear which I personally have good reason to suspect, was often far from the truth.If I were to wonder about this I would say that if he ever doubted what he was being told, or wanted to check the information, he could have nipped out and found out what was going on, then challenged his colleagues.  The extra time at work would give a person a more substantial lump sum pay out and pension.I imagine somebody in the position of the ex-minister would be allowed a quiet job for a period of time to keep him going.  I think you are right Vanessa, a mere mortal without this unconditional support would have been pursued for inefficiency.

Sarah Felstead ● 4905d

Another example of the 'them and us' culture so prevalent today comes in the form of a £17K payout for disgraced ex Minister Huhne. He's already a multi millionaire, so hardly scratching around for a few bob. How can you be rewarded for having to resign under a cloud of suspicion? It makes the mind boggle as to how a normal ordinary worker would be treated in similar circumstances especially as a criminal conviction would show up on any CRB check required which would put the kibosh on some job opportunities.

Vanessa Smith ● 4909d

Sorry, I got a bit confused here.  I thought that HR is a part of Personnel, so for somebody to be a HR manager they have to be a Personnel Manager, too.  Are you saying that losing the major title of Personnel manager allows a company to water down their workers understanding of application of Policy and Law under a lesser title of HR which might just be an admin position?My worst experience of appraisals is that they are applied by individuals interpreting the methods and procedures as they wish.Often gossip was a ‘fact’ and rarely was information validated, often to suit the current culture.  In this gossip was the culture of ‘ringing ahead’ to speak to the next reporting officer to ‘fill them in’.  This as with most gossip is completely subjective and was often based on stereotypes and or lies. As this was done verbally it was not accountable as an influence on how somebody should be viewed which I always felt was a shame.  Two instances I know of were where people resigned and applied for another job and this ringing ahead was done outside of the references normally asked for.  The Manager who did this was very pleased with themselves happily boasting after they had made the call.I doubt if they even got to references in the job.Another time I was asked for a verbal appraisal on a person, and when it didn’t fit with what he wanted he wrote the report and the person was let go.Don’t start me on targets!  I need a cup of tea.

Sarah Felstead ● 4910d

When did salaries and wages become 'compensation', anyway?

Susan Kelly ● 4914d

The problem now is that people are NOT personnel officers, they deal in human resources - in other words employees are numbers and not real people. Appraisals are generally organisation wide - not down to individuals,with the method and procedure clearly laid out, and the ones I have been involved in also gave you the opportunity to self appraise first, and also to refuse to sign it and accept if there was anything in your manager's final report you did not agree with, neither could you be ambushed by any issues that you had not been made aware of previously. I think they have positives and negatives but they should give employees targets and expectations and the opportunity to raise anything they are not happy with.

Vanessa Smith ● 4914d

All appraisal systems are down to individuals Vanessa, and how they work depends on how they are used by those involved and how the culture dictates they should be used.  The only real checking about this is through Personnel studying trends and values and translating them into courses of action.A good personnel person can apply the statistics and talk them off the page and give a valuable presentation about findings; people’s opinions and wants and delivery, relating them positively to the operational policies and Laws they are working to themselves.Most people want to do their best and be fair when writing a report, but some use it for their own personal gain and some demonstrate how lazy they are in doing the whole job by landing a threatening appraisal knowing that the grievance system cannot be used or will be ridiculed in use.From my experience the report is often written on the last thing that springs to mind about a person, rather than a fair assessment of the years’ work.  I had a whole report written about my being on ‘absent on extended maternity leave’ – virtually every section mentioned it and I had only been off for about 2/3rds of the normal allowable time.It is interesting that this person felt as they did; I don’t agree with condemnation as a first port of call when a positive slant, is often one which we can learn from.  If the culture examined why the person writing it was so hooked up on my not being there it would probably have worked out that women on Maternity leave had to have their names filled in every week on an absence return and this person was having a very hard time missing the additional support of another person of my grade being around.Writing somebody down as absent 35 times is rather grating I imagine.  One lead from a senior Manager at a Managers meeting was ‘I am going to make a sexist statement – married women and the problems they cause’.  He meant it, but instead of challenging what he meant as an individual, a number laughed in kinship giving a lead and setting a culture.Then there are the personal tweaks that people apply to their position as a Manager such as when exiting the Civil Service there used to be a question ‘would you reemploy this person in the Civil service’? – Crumbs! I have seen some grins as that form was filled in by their old Manager.Then there was the Manager who decided that if a person was sick they were faking it so got their personnel file out and looked up their next of kin details, then used these details to ring the spouses boss to ask if they were off sick as well.An old reporting system made one part of the appraisal open and the other part secret; I don’t have to say anything about this do I.Plain old talking, as in proper Managing people as a resource, would show up a lot of this, secrets can only benefit the holder, and it often suits them to keep them that way.

Sarah Felstead ● 4915d

Personally I've always found 'HR' bods very up themselves generally, too precious for words a lot of them. What is useful are the ACAS guidelines which HR - if you're really, really lucky - should be familiar with, but don't bank on it. They are all online now and very easy to understand and helpful, they also have a helpline too.

Vanessa Smith ● 4915d

Sorry to hear that Paul – even if these workers are ganging up, they are individually employed and individually accountable for their salary and work.I thought the principles of the Employment legislation were to work to resolutions yet you sound very much alone so maybe you are not getting the benefit of the right setting or culture to apply these to.What leads and positive support can you get from your HR people?  If your HR section is full of people who you have also ‘inherited’ then you will find it nigh on impossible to resolve.  I can remember one situation where the culture of gossip and lack of confidentiality caused so much grief that it would have been easier to let the person carry on their own sweet way and worked around them rather than to have sought leads from HR.  It was a sort of unspoken air around their Manager as the situation went from diabolical to well, let’s just say HR even let it be known that they had saved three interviews (for a rainy day) and then openly boasted that they had seen the basher, flasher, and smasher.  I will let you decide what their interviews were about.These were, however, individual people and confidentiality would allow them some consideration regardless of what celebratory party the HR section thought they were having that day.  I am a great believer in HR being the salespeople of HR and selling positive leads and this should be evident in everything they handle.  Best of British mate.

Sarah Felstead ● 4915d

"Incidentally, out in the real world of work Liam Fox's actions as a Minister would have qualified him for instant dismissal for Gross Misconduct.  Notwithstanding this he was allowed to resign with his CV intact, so he has precious little to feel resentful about."Yet another example - if one were needed - of the 'don't do as I do - do as I tell you' attitude of this government. I agree wholeheartedly with your views. Unfortunately what these idiots don't take into account is that fuel and food bills don't operate on half price equivalents so that part time wages will pay for them.

Vanessa Smith ● 4915d

The simple fact is that unless one has worked for an employer for a minimum of twelve months one has no rights to a Tribunal anyway.  The government is in the process of changing this threshold to two years, which is where it was when I was representing people at Tribunals back in the early 1990s.Any employer who gets out of bed the wrong side can sack an employee before that time for no good reason without fear of being held to account, save for the fact that a small amount of notice has to be given if the dismissal is not for Gross Misconduct (failure to do so can result in a small claim being made to a County Court for payment of the unpaid wages).For this reason I cannot understand how an employer can fail to identify the workshy or the incompetent in good time to replace them unless, as in Paul's case, they are inherited from another manager or department.I don't think Liam Fox is talking about dismissing lazy or useless workers here.  My feeling is he is flying a kite for the introduction of more part-time work on short-term contracts.  The really startling statistic to come out of the most recent employment figures was the huge increase over a very short space of time in the number of people who are undertaking part-time, fixed-term or casual work.Whilst this can have its advantages for those, like myself, whose lifestyles demand some flexibility and who prefer not to be tied down, for many families the anxiety of not knowing whether the new job is still going to be there in three months' time is just one more thing to worry about at a time when there is enough uncertainty around as it is.Incidentally, out in the real world of work Liam Fox's actions as a Minister would have qualified him for instant dismissal for Gross Misconduct.  Notwithstanding this he was allowed to resign with his CV intact, so he has precious little to feel resentful about.

Phil Andrews ● 4915d

Discussing this with 'im indoors, who has been a middle manager, he feels many people equate management with bullying, and I couldn't agree more. This proposal could well be a bully's charter! Pity Fox didn't put his own house in order before coming back to annoy us.

Vanessa Smith ● 4916d

It's 20 years since I had a 'proper' job but I agree with Vanessa that the quality of management in this country is (or was back then) very low.

Susan Kelly ● 4916d

I can't help wondering if the ease with which Dr.Fox lost his post is at the twisted root of his proposals,any publicity being better than none.  They all wait about 3 months before surfacing again don't they? Perhaps they think that's the length of our memories.  As I understand it,mortgage lenders and landlords like customers to be in regular employment,seems to me it's a great way to create an underclass boom,perhaps that's the aim,to have a terrified workforce on minimum wages looking over their shoulders all the time. We could compete with China then. Ho Hum.

Tony Wood ● 4916d

Couldn't agree more Vanessa. Some people will bleat on about how, if someone goes to a Tribunal and wins, then costs will be awarded against the Employer. However, £1750 will be prohibitive to begin with and is likely to put many people off, especially those in low paid work, before even considering it.The ramifications of this are that Employers will feel able to push Employees to the limit of the Law and often beyond with no fear of comeback.Bring back bullying and discrimination in the workplace.Of course, if you are unfortunate enough to be forced out of work, and can't find a job locally, no doubt you can follow Tebbits advice and "get on your bike"!

Christopher Boucher ● 4916d

My experience was that management is generally p***poor here. Although we've had Charter Marks and Investors in People they have generally turned out to be the usual box ticking exercise rather than bringing changes to the workplace. I can remember people of a certain grade and above going off on long courses for better management over many months and saying that the course was really useful and good but when they wanted to put what they'd learned into practice senior management would have none of it! They'd ticked the box - trained the staff as required and that was that. Waste of time and money, and while those sorts of situations exist employees are entitled to the protection of the law, anyway this shower of a government want to make going to a tribunal so dear no-one will be able to afford it - £1750! I don't think tribunals are biased - I've been to two and found them to be extremely helpful and fair. There are a lot of people put into management positions when they couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag, it is amazing how, when they bugger things up, they then get promoted too!

Vanessa Smith ● 4916d

It's often said that Employment Tribunals come dowwn in favour of the employer, but I don't have statistics.Where I do sympathize with an employer, is that it is very time consuming to arrange a series of meetings and build up written evidence which is sufficient to sack an employee. It is also stressful for all concerned.Where I sympathize with the employee is when the expectations are unreasonable or more often not ever properly set out. And also when the manager does not know how to muck in and roll their sleeves up with the staff.Where I sympathize with both is when the manager and employee do not keep up with each other on progress through the year. Good management is not a walk in the park. It always used to be said that Americans were far better at management than the Brits. Was that a cultural thing? Don't know what the present situation is now.

George Knox ● 4916d

That's all fine and dandy but the other side of this coin is the nasty, vindictive employer who drives a coach and horses through employees rights. If you run an annual appraisal system - which they certainly do in the Civil Service and local authorities, then it should provide the employer with enough information to make a good case to put in place warnings and targets and advise employees what the consequences will be if they fail to come up to scratch. It is very unfair to accuse people of being 'workshy' if the employer is not communicating about their expectations. It takes two to tango.

Vanessa Smith ● 4916d

I inherited some staff that were absolutely useless at their jobs and fully flaunted the fact that it was just about impossible to get rid of them due to employment regulations and so I would welcome some relaxation so those who want to do a decent days work are employed and the workshy kicked out

Paul Fisher ● 4916d

At the moment no one is hiring, because it's so hard to get rid of staff legally. A (temporary?) relaxation in the rules would create more jobs.

Susan Kelly ● 4916d