Forum Topic

BFC move to Lionel Rd - What happens to Griffin Park....

Well done to BFC for buying the land for the new stadium. I hope this guy who has taken ownership is the genuine article. Anyone here remember what was planned for GP back when the original plan for the move was mooted? The front page story says 'family housing' but the housing world has changed since the recession and the coallition as social housing has effectively been scrapped for new development. So what might have been informally agreed in the past as part of a planning brief for S106 with LBH may no longer be possible. The land value of GP will obviously be key to financing the new stadium and the club will be looking to maximise this. A land swap with Barrats might be included in the deal?. The surrounding streets will cause problems if they seek high blocks of flats but architects may find a solution..... I am about to move home close to the ground so whilst not a natural nimby do have an interest in what might get built...

Iain Muir ● 5238d47 Comments

Where is the new stadium to be? I can't actually think of a big enough spare plot in Lionel Rd. Presumably we are talking Lionel Rd South?

Susan Kelly ● 5238d

From the front page story..."The site, which is currently occupied by industrial tenants and used mainly for waste transfer, is located between Kew Bridge station and the elevated M4 motorway close to Chiswick roundabout."

Iain Muir ● 5238d

One thing is for sure. Expect a huge development with hopelessly inadequate parking which will destroy the remnants of quality in the surrounding streets and will no doubt get approved by our local council and ward councillors.

Michael Brandt ● 5235d

As far as I'm aware the move is planned for the 2016/2017 season so still some time away. Also the decision on Griffin Park itself still sits with Martin Lange (Bees Utd) until 2014. I'm sure that certain councillors will approve any sort of planning application at the mere thought of 2 sherbert dabs and a bowl of Goldfish as an incentive but hopefully by 2014 certain councillors will be voted out and sensible decisions will be made on the Griffin Park area. The last plans called for 50% 'affordable housing' of which only 15% was proposed to go to key workers but residents pretty much shot this down as too high a proportion, particularly in comparison to other developments of the time. The council also, at one stage, wanted the pitch to remain a 'public open space' but I think this was eventually shot down. The architects were also extremely proud of their underground parking idea until the brook running under the area was pointed out to them so even though the ground may well move on time, I would suspect Griffin Park's development may take a bit longer.

Claire Peleschka ● 5235d

Thank you Clare, thats useful. Interesting about the brook. An Environmental search showed patches of 'high risk' pluvial flooding in the area (surface water from rain not the Thames)The days of 50% affordable are long gone and the new definition 'affordable' is not affordable as rents upto 80% of market value may be charged by the Housing Association...

Iain Muir ● 5235d

The relief for the Brook is right under the garages that LBH want to build on as well as 6 650v mains cables. Niether of which were deemed of any significance by Planning or the closed ears of councillors

Anthony Waller ● 5235d

Is that the garages in Brook Rd South, past the Griffin pub?

Iain Muir ● 5235d

There was a comprehensive planning application for housing on Griffin Park agreed a number of years ago. If the club sought renewal of the application after the initial permission period then this will still be valid. Anyone know if this was done?The application was conditional on Brentford FC attaining a new stadium.

John Connelly ● 5235d

Martin Lange gave up his rights. He handed his golden share to Bees United.When BFC built the Brook Rd stand all the houses, mine included, had thier basements flooded. I always presumed this was due to disturbing the Brook.

Neil Chippendale ● 5235d

Indeed it was John, as recently as March 2012, see :http://planning.hounslow.gov.uk/Planning_CaseNo.aspx?strCASENO=P/2012/0026

Adam Beamish ● 5235d

Thanks Adam. Assuming the development of a stadium proceeds we can be clear from the application discussed and agreed by committee on 29 March what is likely to happen to Griffin Park.

John Connelly ● 5235d

The club will have renewed the pp to preserve their position but so much has changed in the housing world I would doubt that what was agreeable in the past would be viable now without 40-50% Housing Association Grant. Higher buildings and more smaller flats will probably be proposed in a revised pp........

Iain Muir ● 5234d

Now seems the time to form a Civic Society like that have in Ealing.It has been a highly successful non political guardian of conservation areas and the excesses of developers and seeing as we have councillors of all parties who cannot be trusted to be reliable or honest,serving their their ideology foermost  all too often against the interests of residents and the quality of the towns history, then this might be a better way.There is a national network of Civic Societies and I'm sure the Ealing one will offer help in getting established.

Michael Brandt ● 5234d

That's a great idea. Civic societies have been very effective at thwarting the over reaching desires of property developers and less than responsible councils. In fact they have brought about much more open a fairer councils by avoiding party politics and being tough but reasonable.How do we do this? Anyone know? It ought to encapsulate the whole Borough as it's not only Brentfords conservation areas that are getting abused.

Anthony Waller ● 5234d

When plans for the Lionel Road Stadium development were announced several years ago..and illustrations were produced in a brochure, I personally thought it was a dopey idea to add such considerable traffic congestion to that area.You've seen the congestion over King Edward VII Bridge, you've seen the delays trying to get out of Wellesley Road and Stilehall Gardens and you know that the M4 westbound slip road starts just over the hump back bridge in Lionel Road South.Ambulance trying to get through the area? And how will Ealing supporters meander in their vehicles to get to the Ground?I could be very wrong however and the Stadium built to fit in perfectly.

Jim Lawes ● 5234d

Twizzle the picture and zoom in or out.
View Larger Map

Sarah Felstead ● 5234d

The traffic and junction in to Lionel Road South is already a nightmare during rush hour - for pedestrians as well as cars, I regularly get near misses walking crossing the road.  There will need to be a major new traffic junction less than 100 yards from Kew Bridge.  The impact on local residents and businesses will be massive.

Reg Ghosh ● 5233d

Agreed Reg.. you tell 'em!And when the football crowds leave the planned Lionel Road Stadium, which public houses will they flood to?  The dignified "Express", the brand new Fullers Pub (for the posh) on the "Kew Bridge" apartments site. There's nowhere for them to gather on Gunnersbury Avenue or the Great West Road and will "The Pilot" in Wellesley Road be happy?Griffin Park should perhaps stay where it is..with the four adjoining Pubs remaining intact.

Jim Lawes ● 5233d

Try Brentford Community Council, which is not part of the official Civic Societies but tries to counteract excessive development. http://www.brentfordcc.org.uk/

Kath Richardson ● 5233d

I can't see how they can build a football pitch in what is nothing more than a drainage culvert and old railway tracks.There's a very steep incline on the right from that country lane type road that leads from the A205 to the A4 and the steep incline to the M4 (junction 2 iirc).  Is this where there will be a new football pitch?  I thought that area was ear-marked to make a better flow-through for juggernauts from the South Cicular to the A4 without having to negotiate the sharp turn into that county lane.And if they do build on that wasteland where will the rain over spill run to?In my mind it'll run down to what we know as the Hollows - at the Brentford end of Kew Bridge.

Xanthe West ● 5233d

Will Brentford FC be able to fill a new 15,000 seat stadium?  The current capacity at Griffin Park is 12,763 but average attendance is only around 5,000.  If they don't ever fill the current ground what hope do they get of 3 times as many supporters at a new ground?

Reg Ghosh ● 5230d

A new stadium will be able to facilitate a number of ancillary uses which would not be possible in its present residential environment.  A modern football club ideally needs to be operating for more than 30 days each year in order to survive and compete.

Phil Andrews ● 5230d

With QPR's owner announcing today that they have identified 2 possible sites in West London for a new 45,000 stadium, does this mean Lionel Road is one of them?Previous plans for Lionel Road were based on providing Brentford with a stadium financed from adjacent high rise housing developments. However, a ground share with QPR in a 45,000 seater would be a very attractive alternative to some.I have no insider information. However, all previous attempts in recent years by major West London teams to identify a suitable site for a new stadium have drawn a blank.Would a ground share in which Brentford's owner holds the freehold and QPR's money finances the stadium be a runner?

John Connelly ● 5230d

JohnThe two sites that QPR have identified for their new stadium are the Unigate Dairy in White City and the Kensal Rise Gas Works and they have no intention of moving to Lionel Rd as the site is simply not big enoughThey have also stated 100% that they have no intention of ground sharing either

Paul Fisher ● 5230d

QPR have identified two sites within the locality of Loftus road and they do not wish to share in any way - probably from previous experience.Who knows?. However, there can be no doubt that (excuse the pun) concrete plans must exist and be in the process of putting into place.Otherwise the planning renewal by BFC would not have been executed in advance of the buyout.There will no doubt be something in place.But the big worry is what. In particular, for the Griffin Park site.It's in an area which cannot cope with another 2000 or so residents.That's the equivalent to a low attended matchday everyday and would involve more vehicular movements that on a well attended matchday.So it has the potential to be 50 times worse than at present.And a disaster for the existing residential area which will overheat.For BFC the Lionel road site is as good a location as it can possibly get but the team needs to be first and then consolidating supporters.One only has to look at how Arsenal have faltered on the pitch since leaving Highbury to see what gets lost.How the cost of tickets has alienated rank and file fans.Griffin Park is one of the most well liked grounds by home and way fans but for £22 to get in it is expensive for what it is.The ground with a pub on all four corners 2 of which are brilliant pubs is folklore in the football world.But if the new ground costs even more to get into then no-one will go and that could be it for Brentfords aspirations.There is every chance that the GrifFin Park site or Lionel road site may be requisitioned for the main site for rebuilding of the  M4 which is most likely to be announced after the Olympics.

Anthony Waller ● 5230d

Thanks for the information, Paul.

John Connelly ● 5230d

At least Kensal Rise is nearer to Queens Park.

Keith Iddon ● 5230d

Phil - why don't they make more use of the current family friendly site?  Several years ago the gym used to be open a couple of evenings a week for supervised circuit training.  They could make more use of that, what about fitness boot camps that are all the rage at the moment.  Also didn't they used to have jazz nights?It's pretty clear that the ground-share is a non-starter and as Anthony points out any increase in tickets will just put off more current fans.  From what part of the surrounding residential areas do they plan to attract 10,000+ more supporters from?

Reg Ghosh ● 5229d

New site = more income = more to spend on players = promotion to Championship = higher attendances.That's the theory anyway.

Phil Andrews ● 5229d

The possibility of a groundshare agreement with a London rugby club has also been considered at various times.

Phil Andrews ● 5229d

The club can't use Griffin park as a 24 hour operating ground. It has no corporate hospitality nor can the they built. The ground can't expand. If Matthew Benham, the new owner, wants the team to move forward it needs a new ground.

Neil Chippendale ● 5229d

Also a great opportunity for a possible ground share with newly promoted London Welsh who are just down the road which would bring in extra revenue. How about having concerts there too?

Kevin Farnan ● 5228d

Or, in the case of Darlington, going from Division 2 of the Football League to Division 1 of the Northern League !.

Adam Beamish ● 5228d

Matthew Benham is a multi millionare who is a life long supporter and has ploughed his own money into the club and as it stands today the club are heading up not down

Neil Chippendale ● 5228d

Still not sure where the extra 10,000+ supporters are going to come from?  Transport links to the new site are no better than Griffin Park and for cars arguably worse?

Reg Ghosh ● 5228d

RegAs a rule of thumb in football better performance on the pitch and higher league placement tends to lead to higher attendances.

Phil Andrews ● 5228d

Quite true the last 15 or so games I've been to at Griffin Park have been far from entertaining.But I do agree, if the team performed well and played entertaining football the higher attendances would follow and consolidate and theres no real excuse for poor quality services. Good quality and value for money can be supplied easily if the will is there. You don't need a glitzy Olympic structure to do that.I fear that even with a spiffing new stadium, nothing will be any better from a fans perspective. It won't produce a better team or better play.

Anthony Waller ● 5227d

Yes but if a club is making more money it can buy better players, or pay better wages to help keep good players when it gets them.The original plans that I saw included possible options for a hotel, health centre, modern gym, corporate facilities and a whole lot more.  Where would you put these at Griffin Park?And that is just assuming the residents would not object to the ground suddenly becoming a 7 day, 52 week operation.

Phil Andrews ● 5227d

all this stuff is duplicated in the main by the fountain centre and stuff already being developed in the vicinity.Local Hotels are now in abundance. So what's in it for the community? Cleaning jobs?A 24/7/52 operation needs ample cheap or free parking otherwise it will falter just like everything else has.Or it goes mega exclusive and ends up like Riverside racquets club, packed out with desperate housewives in their range rovers and expense account show husbands.Hardly the stuff Brentford fans are made of - apart from certain dreams!!

Anthony Waller ● 5227d

The Leisure Centre is fast approaching the end of its natural.  Its replacement could and may well be incorporated into the scheme.

Phil Andrews ● 5227d

That would be a good move but Citroen are in between the site I believe.Fountain has only recently been refurbished.Like Watermans it is a dreadfully badly desined place that makes it far from what it could and should be.But near the end of it's life? It should be good for at least 60 more years.There are better Victorian pools around than the place. And the place has never surpassed Brentford Swimming Pool as a place to actually swim.Sadly missed and sold off on the sly with the blessing of a councillor in my home street , Clifden road.

Anthony Waller ● 5227d

No names no pack drill, as they say.

Phil Andrews ● 5227d

I rarely venture down Clifden Rd. Has there been any development of the old swimming pool site?

Keith Iddon ● 5227d

Converted into flats and a bijou little house, two remain for sale

Iain Muir ● 5227d

View Larger Map

Sarah Felstead ● 5227d

Studio flat for sale in Brentford Baths for £330,000 - if you check the agents details there are 15 photographs of the inside and out of the flat giving you a good tour of what has been done in the conversion.Don't know if this link will workhttp://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/11312138it is on Zoopla through Foxtons.

Sarah Felstead ● 5227d

Thanks for the photo Sarah.Isn't the phrase 'Studio falt' estate agents' speak for 'bed-sit'?£330k ? That must be a misprint surely? You can buy a house with garden for that.

Keith Iddon ● 5226d