Forum Topic

Brook Rd Sth development may risk flooding

I have just been shown a set of letters and drawings from another resident who has been concerned about the proposed developments at council garage sites in Brook Road and Lateward road.It appears that a series of flood relief vessels exist at both sites and under the road at another site, and are located to prevent breaches of the underground brook that runs to the Thames.Speaking to an elderly neighbour tonight, she recalls Brook road flooding regularly as well as torrents flooding Grosvenor Road and Lateward road as well as St Pauls rec being regularly waterlogged in the north east corner. She recalls this occuring as late as 1973 and the then Metropolitan water board making a lot of excavations to remedy the problem.It seems that the MWB was in transition to the TWA and records do not seem to exist in clarity nor do they seem to exist at all at L B Hounslow. We already know that the planning officers had not identified the Electricity sub-station at one of the sites and failed to inform   councillors voting on the development permissions.The developments will pose a risk to all the local properties as these flood protections will have to be removed for building to take place.It seems too, that the councils developer partner expects the sites to be pre build prepared at the expense of the authority.Does anyone who has lived here for a long time have any recollection of the flooding problem and when the remedial works were carried out?This could have many implications as it will cause issues with insurance, property values and above all risk of flooding during storms.

Anthony Waller ● 4928d33 Comments

This is the flood that effected my house, number 65. I can't remember who paid for the re pi air, but the basement now has a concrete lining.

Neil Chippendale ● 4880d

Hi Myra, That's interesting, so many have  strories of flooding and the Brook and yet both Thames Water and L B of Hounslow seem to have no records at all.I had heard that TV's That's Life took on the then Metropolitan Water Board and Hounslow Council and made them take action which is seems to fit in with the dates that the drainage was routed to the garages sites to alleviate the flooding.An independent inspection two weeks ago shows the duct right in the centre of the Brook Road garages and revealed an drain relief from St Pauls rec on the other site in Lateward road.Still cannot understand how the council do not know this or how they propose to develop the sites without risking a return to flooding and damp damage to properties in Brook Road, Lateward road and Grosvenor road or indeed whom will pick up the huge cost of relocating the services which will make these few houses way beyond sensible economics and could end up costing the council even more if insurance companies and residents end up having to sue for damage to properties.Annoying that the closed eyes and ears of the councillor locally is, I think the blame has to be shared by those who did a deal with a developer and did not properly consult, research and properly inform both residents and councillors.But that is sadly, nothing new in this borough.

Anthony Waller ● 4883d

Anthony, I lived in Brook Road south from 1986-1993 and when they begun the  westside bulding of the new stand for BFC  water was found to be entering properties (as yes there is a brook under Brook Road South!) The Esther Ranzen TV show who used to expose consumer concerns maintained  that the BFC building works had disrupted the brook and came along and filmed some of my neighbours with gnome hats and fishing rods sitting in their houses!RegardsMyra Savin

myra vivien savin ● 4883d

"The map is the 1865 OS map."Thank you Australia!It was just before my time!

Jim Lawes ● 4905d

The map is the 1865 OS map.

Neil Chippendale ● 4905d

That seems to confirm all that Anthony Waller had revealed. Especially the use of water for the engine yard.It may also explain why the Lateward road / Brook road end of  St Pauls rec was never built on. The land undulates to that point and no doubt was boggy.The La Tewards did not bequeath the park until after Lateward road was built so it is possible it was too costly to drain the land. Hence it's donation - there's always a catch.It does explain what both the Lateward Road and Brook Road sites remained unbuilt on post war. The density of the area made infrastructure works difficult with nowhere to place installations.

Michael Brandt ● 4908d

Jim Lawes ● 4908d

One of our top correspondents has forwarded this earlier Ordnance Map to me..and look, as he explains, the Brook follows the land line and  and diverts itself from "Brook Road South" to a more westerly line.

Jim Lawes ● 4908d

Yes , Thanks, Every little bit of info maps and so on help.I've been shown the ducting at one of the garage sites today. It's there for all to see. Splat in the middle of the site and you can rally hear it when it rains.Quite why LBH need to demolish the garages to assess the site seems a bit dopey. and costly.

Anthony Waller ● 4921d

Most informative.Thank you Jim

Michael Brandt ● 4921d

From: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22572"Two streams, later hidden by housing, ran southward on either side of Ealing village in the mid 19th century. The easterly one, from water in the grounds of Elm Grove, fed some small ponds in the fields east of South Ealing Road and larger ones near Clayponds Lane before flowing under Brentford High Street to the Thames. The westerly stream ran from Castlebar Hill east of Northfield Avenue to Little Ealing, where it fed ponds at Ealing Park; farther south it followed the line of Brook Road before passing under Brentford High Street and entering the Thames near Ferry Lane. (fn. 8)" O.S. Maps 6", Mdx. XV. NE., SE., XVI. NW., SW., XX. NE., XXI. NW. (1873 and later edns.); Bacon, Atlas of Lond. (1886); Gtr. Ealing Local Hist. Soc. Broadsheet, 10 Oct. 1960.JL.

Jim Linwood ● 4921d

Almost certainly.There was no overall water authority at that time and, much as today; large users would not want to pay another company for something they could acquire themselves.In the last hour I've had a call from someone who says the Brook had a take off that fed the boilers for the swimming pool in Clifden road. Whether that means filled the pools as well or just fed the boilers.The bombsites were a very useful means to put into place amenities in an otherwise dense district of small terraced houses with far more people crammed into them than there are now.Most had no electricity although the many owned by the gas company had gas heat and light. None had bathrooms or inside toilets.And then there was the later flooding problem. The sites were selected to enable infrastructure additions, like electricity and latterly flood alleviation and then used as garages.It probably is partly due to these that the district did not fall into decline as much as other parts of Brentford and has survived in such good steadHow it cannot have occurred to both council officers and councillors that the few remaining sites left undeveloped must be for a good reason is shameful.Considering less suitable sites were built on over the duration.No-one has taken responsibility to explain how and where these infrastuctures will be re-sited to, or how much it will cost or where space will be found if some future infra structure may be needed - like boreholes.2 Boreholes on these sites could provide heating for all of Lateward Road, Mafeking Ave, Braemar Rd,Brook Road, Grosvenor road and Albany road.Otherwise it places pressure on future utilisation of the Park.

Anthony Waller ● 4922d

Sadly my collection of Whitacker's Almanack for the 1960's are buried in my storage units..otherwise I could help with that.If the railways needed The Brooke Stream perhaps so too did the old Royal Jersey Laundry site in Brooke Road South opposite the Griffin Pub.

Jim Lawes ● 4922d

Fascinating !Presumably they didn't knock the houses down to carry out the flood alleviation work ? Was that bomb damage ? The 1945 image from google earth shows a few roofs missing.I wonder if we can find when the main rain events were in West London in the early 60's and then look in the Middlesex Chronicle. My 1981 Whitacker's Almanack gives the daily weather readings at Kew and I suppose earlier editions had established the tradition. Is there a library that has kept the back copies - or are they on-line ?

Tim Henderson ● 4922d

It gets rather interesting in a historical geographic sort of way!When the railway came it had a need for two key resources. Steam required water and coal.The coal was not a problem it came by canal and river and the railway was a modern fast bridgehead for distributing coal throughout the UK.The GWR had the freight links to the docks and the LSWR the passenger and light goods more based on local commerce.When the railway arrived at Brentford it needed a plentiful water supply and a location for it's good yard. Kew had a pumping station but surplus water was not in abundance.The location selected was east of Brentford station. The site was purchased because....it had a supply of water from a lively brook. Enough to replenish the tank engines that then used the line.The Brook was tapped and the rest of the Brook running to the Thames was diminished and thus piped underground and the area gradually built upon.This remained stable until the run down of steam on British Railways. Although the Brentford Loop was electrified, this was only for Suburban passenger trains. Long distance trains remained Steam until 1968. But freight was mixed diesel and steam until the late 1960's.After the goods depot went into decline and finally closed, flooding started to occur in Brook Road South, St Pauls Rec, Grosvenor road and Lateward road.With water no longer being used in large volume by the railway, the reamining ducted section of the Brook could not cope with larger surges of water.So it appears the Metropolitan Water Board carried out remedial works between 1967 and 1973. It would seem that both the garage sites are the 'flood defence key spots' But this is where no records have yet surfaced apart from older locals providing this explanation.So an older map is going to be needed to plot the original brook and a later map plotting the ducted route which may differ, then a plan of the flood relief locations.Cannot believe Thames water has no archive having moved it around so much 70% is now missing and they placed most of the remains uncatalogued in the Metropolitan Archive in Clerkenwell. So much for a private utility being responsible and trustworthy.

Anthony Waller ● 4922d

Interesting - I wonder if it still exists at the the back of the back gardens in Enfield Road and Clayton Crescent ?As Neil said we need to go back a bit earlier to get the course of the Brook before Brook Road was built.Was the coming of the railway the time it was buried.

Tim Henderson ● 4922d

from Ealing to Brentford. (Godfrey Allan OS map)

Jim Lawes ● 4922d

Well I'm baffled.I live very close to both sites and have had nothing than an afterthought planning notice for a conservation area.Not one resident I spoke to whilst out this morning knows of or participated in any vote?But there were a huge amount of objections and still a lot of concern on a range of issues to date totally undealt with.So can anyone enlighten us on what residents were invited to vote and when?Something more than odd going on here.

Anthony Waller ● 4925d

I have just realised that this is a quote from the draft "Statement of Community Involvement" that Hounslow has just "launched" its consultation on.http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/sci_draft_oct12.pdfI note that it mentions :"5.19 The council will also consider the use of local community websites as part of the consultation process...."Is that brentfordtw8 ?And is "also consider" worded strongly enough ? !!

Tim Henderson ● 4925d

There is an exposed section of The Brook behind the old Agfa Laval/ Brentford Nylons building.  The water could be viewed (last year) from Brook Road North.I recall many years ago on this Forum..people saying that they could hear the Brook and it's running water in the roadway / steel cover(?) outside..(was it?) No. 78.

Jim Lawes ● 4926d

This is very interesting.A  local resident friend of mine had written and informed the councillors of this revelation and had a reply.The response was that 'modern technology can solve these problems and the garages will have to be demolished to find out more.These cables and water drains are not under the garages. They are in the open area and why there are no more garages which could be in the space available.Will if it all transpires to be the case. Will the garages be rebuilt?The developers it seems are of the understanding that LBH...or it's funders will be underwriting the cost of making the sites suitable for building on.To move several 650KV cables, make safe access to a sub station and ensure that the flood risk to Brook Road, Grosvenor Road and Lateward road remains stable is not going to be cheap. I don't know of any modern technology that can eliminate flood rish other than the method already in place.So what will residential insurers say? Are they going to levy a huge risk premium onto each and every residence? Will the council be responsible if calamity does occur having ignored all warnings and failed to produce to councillors any correct information?As for a vote? Who got this? There was a notice of intent to demolish and a planning application. Objections were ignored and dismissed with no serious consideration and that was it.So who and where are these residents that voted?

Michael Brandt ● 4926d

From memory that sounds right.

Neil Chippendale ● 4926d

According to Thames water a water source runs from what is now Little Ealing through to the thames and runs under brook road then veers off between lateward road and Grosvenor road and under St Pauls rec and into the thames somewhere near watermans lane. It is ducted but to date they have not presented a detailed map.

Anthony Waller ● 4926d

If I remember the large scale OS map of 1865 shows the brook. Hounslow Local Studies has copies of all the OS maps. Speak to James Marshall.

Neil Chippendale ● 4926d

I laughed loudly when I read this, it is laughable that a Councillor should say this when in practice the views and concerns of this local community are quite clearly ignored by our so called representatives.Cllr Ruth Cadbury, Hounslow’s cabinet member for planning and regeneration, said:“Involving local people in planning is key to helping shape the future development of the built environment across the borough.  There should be opportunities for everyone to have a say in how their community is planned and developed, so that when we make decisions about the built environment, we know what is important to the local community.“This updated Statement outlines the council’s commitment to engaging the community in both the development of new planning policies and decisions on planning applications. “

Rod de St Croix ● 4926d

I wonder if that was from the drainage of the stand roof (into the drains which couldn't cope ?) or did the foundations disturb the ?natural drainage.I can't find much evidence of the Brook Street brook on the 1777/ 1828 Ealing historical maps of Bassett and Nichols - though I suppose there might have been a ditch alongside the lane that ran past Chas Morris house parallel to and between Windmill Lane and Drum Lane (now Ealing Road). There does look as if there might have been a substantial water feature in Ealing Park, Little Ealing (now site of King Fahad Academy according to google maps) that could have drained along this lane. Perhaps Moses Glover or the early large scale OS maps may show it better.I must nip along to the local history collection. The press clippings there may have notes on previous flooding incidents and if we can get some dates there are the newspaper microfilms.....

Tim Henderson ● 4926d

The basements of the Victorian cottages that border the football ground flooded when BFC built the Brook Road stand. This included my old house number 65.

Neil Chippendale ● 4926d

Yes they got to vote - type garages in the forum search menu to see previous discussions from early this year.

Reg Ghosh ● 4927d

Residents got to vote for this?First I've heard. I thought it was carved up by counclillors who would not lift a finger because of conflicts of interest and policy and all resident input was ignored.Could be a real vote loser if this all comes about.

Anthony Waller ● 4927d

One of the many reasons why not a single local resident voted in favour of the proposals.

Reg Ghosh ● 4927d

Thanks, just checked with public records office, they don't keep such stuff,If a year when works were carried out or when the last time bad flooding occurred that would help.

Anthony Waller ● 4927d

It sounds as if a former watercourse (the "Brook" of Brook Road)was sewered and now falls under the jurisdiction of Thames Water. The drainage department of Hounslow Council should have records of its location and any history of flooding in the area.JL.

Jim Linwood ● 4928d

A long shot, but maybe there are records held at the National archive?

Sarah Felstead ● 4928d