Forum Topic

Watermans out of touch?

Having read the message to patrons and the piece on TW8 I am beginning to feel that Watermans has become out of touch with both reality and it's paying clientele.Moving to a new site, even in Brentford, won't make it better. If it ends up in the ghastly proposed site along the hight street it will be bankrupt, dead and gone forever in no time.I wonder if any of the committee, management or friends actually live in Brentford. Unless it's the deep cushioned haven of the Butts.If they did they will know that almost all the new developments that currently exist are ghost estates with business/retail units that are completely non viable as going concerns. Brentford is a long non radial town and the existing site is perfect for a more arts orientated patronage from both Ealing and Richmond.That will be lost in an instant.For most in Brentford, it is not more than a 15 min walk ( with the exception of the Boston Manor part.)Now they must be on a deathwish. The last USP for getting bums on seats. - Free parking is to be abolished in exchange for a 'policed' car park.It will make no difference, the car park has been bandit territory for decades and everyone will continue to park where they always park, around Brook Roads streets.They must be daft. But also deluded. It could be years before they move and no way should they move unless the alternative site beats the pant's off the existing one - which is a classic example of Hounslow's architectural pedigree which endures to this day!Free Parking is a banner that even Hounslow council has recognised as a lifeline for ailing commerce. They have it and want to ditch it when no-one will use it anyway. How do they think they will attract people to use it? They blame the Olympics for a dismal summer. What about the dismal weather? Perfect for indoor activities. But the list of films this summer was dismal as was the events arranged.Dull and lacklustre. More to do with a mentality of Art School highbrow intellectualism than running an all embracing art centre.At least after months of denials and silence we know that are planning to move but to what? A Potting shed or the few remaining garages?Myopic and Naive....yet again.

Anthony Waller ● 4600d68 Comments

I don't have a problem with foreign films or subtitles my point is that during school holidays they were not showing films that children want to see.  I am not talking about Disney films either.  My grandchildren are aged 11 and 13 and I don't think they have ever seen a film with Vin Diesel in it and neither have I. The cinema may well be their jewel in the crown which therefore says little for the rest of their offerings.  Catering to the needs of the whole community is the point surely and that should include children and when better than during school holidays.As for it being difficult to advertise because of their being a rep theatre fine, so advertise the fact that the building conceals a theatre, cinema, bar, restaurant, whatever is in there.  It shouldn't be beyond the whit of whoever is in charge of the place, probably on a decent salary, to concieve of a way of actually telling people passing by what the place is and what is on within it!

Bernadette Paul ● 4567d

Actually that's not at all true.The Watermans has probably the most eclectic selection of films of any arts based cinema and probable the most mainstream selection too.They do show childrens and teeanagers films and they even have a mother and baby film, (although if you don't like the smell of baby milk don't go to the  showing after!)If you want to go and see disney stuff or Vin Diesel then there are plenty of Cinemas that show that stuff but it's box office american stuff aimed at a target wide audience.Foreign films require one skill to be able to read subtiltes . They are generally excellent films as are those smaller budget British films many of which don't get to the general release of the chain cinemas and sometimes it's only when they win an oscar or a bafta that this happens.That's not to say that all foreign films are great. Some are real howlers and others make watching paint dry interesting. But then again, big mainstream films can be just as big a miss.Personally, the cinema is the Jewel in Watermans Crown and the only thing that they really have got right over the last few years.

Raymond Havelock ● 4568d

It's not that easy for them to advertise what's on as it's a repertory cinema -- showing three or even four different films every day.As for having the temerity to show foreign films, it's an arts centre: that's an important part of its brief -- to show films that are not on anywhere else locally, not just ape the multiplexes.

Susan Kelly ● 4568d

I'm not surprised the Waterman's is underused.  I think the same thing every time I pass it.  What is on there?  I know people can check online but for goodness sake when you go to the Theatre you can see what is on because they advertise it outside, same with cinemas what do the Watermans have, a small A board for The Guru (which I assume is the Indian restaurant!  Nothing to let anyone know that this building is an "Arts Centre" which I believe was it's original description.Every time I pass it I think it's a swimming pool even though i know it's not.  Even it's name suggest a watery theme and if you didn't know any better I swear that's what you would think it was.During some school holiday or other last year, my daughter commented on how useless the Watermans was because whatever films they were showing were either adult or foreign and my grandchildren had to travel to Kingston to see whatever the popular childrens film out at that time.  In other words the Watermans scheduling is all to pot.  During school holidays cater for children - simple!For goodness sake if it looked more like an arts centre and less like a boring concrete block and had some sort of means of decent advertising that coud be seen from the street - not some typed up list perhaps on a notice board -people may actually start using it.

Bernadette Paul ● 4568d

For the Polish people who'd like a Polish Film season at Waterman's.WATERMAN'S contact details:- 40 High Street,Brentford,West London, TW8 0DSGeneral enquiries: +44 020 8232 1019Fax +44 (0)208 232 1030Box Office: +44 (0)20 8232 1010Skype number: +44 (0)20 8133 2021Skype ID: watermanscentreOpen daily, 1pm -  9 pmDirector: Jan LennoxGeneral Manager: Rachel FrancisMarketing Director: Leigh StopsFinance Manager: Ajay BahriHead of Participative Arts Dev: Nadia NervoHead of New Media Arts Dev: Irini PapadimitriouCinema Programmer: John Morgan-TamosunasTechnical Manager: Euan MaybankCustomer Relations Manager: Edoardo Zollo & Mirko PetrovichWatermans is managed by Hounslow Arts Trust LtdOnlineClick here to contact us by e-mail

Jennifer Selig ● 4568d

It wont happen unless someone initially contacts Watermans to sound them out.

Jennifer Selig ● 4568d

There is a very vibrant Polish Centre in Hammersmith called POSK.We have been there and had some terrific nights out. The dinner dance restaurant on a Sat night is probably on of Londons best kept secrets a real gem of a place. The Jazz club excellent.The building- Not unlike Watermans. But they know their market and it thrives because it is wideranging and well supported.But it does not do films and it is supported by Poles who have been here for generations.There are a lot of younger Polish about here and whilst they work very hard they do love cinema and an evening out.A Polish film season or month would be brilliant and very much help integrate with the rest of us.We have several friends locally who are Polish or have a Polish partner.  All were quite reserved initially but have grown to become great friends.I think they would love a season of Polish films here.A great idea.

Raymond Havelock ● 4569d

Has any Polish club/group approached Watermans to ask them to host a Polish week?  We could have Polish films and perhaps even Polish food served in the restaurant for that week, also Polish art on show, Polish handcrafts, Polish music etc.  It could become very popular and may even become a regular fixture.  Give it a go - get up you local Poles and start the ball rolling.

Jennifer Selig ● 4569d

Amazingly the Watermans does not cater at all for the sizeable local Polish community. and yet Polish Cinema is truly superb, as good as any leading international filmmaking country.Yet they bang on about cultural minorities many of whom have other priorities and are simply not interested.

Michael Brandt ● 4570d

Whatever happens to it and whether it is moved or not I think having a large restaurant there is a big mistake.When I walk in it almost feels like I am walking into a restaurant that has a cinema tagged onto the side of it.The restaurant has taken all the space that used to be used for bands,quizzes and informal gatherings on Sundays etc.Why can't it just have a small cafe style eatery.like other comparable  places,ie:the Riverside studios?

Keith Iddon ● 4571d

The machines were being installed when we arrived this afternoon with a view to being operational on Monday.I do wonder if this will last.

Susan Kelly ● 4571d

Madness to move Watermans! Along with the canals, riverside location and Syon Park, it is part of Brentford's USP, giving our dreary run-down surrounds a desperately-needed touch of class, aside from offering a real and valued community amenity. And those who gripe about its Stalinist architecture, at least the (thankfully low-rise) building has a certain quirky eccentrity, including the miasmic aroma of vindaloos. And consider the inevitable alternative: yet another high rise block of flats, spoiling the view along what is a charming stretch of the Thames: vandalism of the highest order threatens! Our decision makers ought to be told: Hands Off! I sympathise with those who argue for it to be moved to the centre of Brentford, in the middle of Ballymore's ill-conceived, dreary Lego development, that if it were designed as a proper arts centre, it would lure people to the new town centre. In practice though, it would probably be an ill-designed concrete box, like the ugly Paul Robeson development in Hounslow, or just quietly left to die by Hounslow Council who don't seem to care about the Western end of their manor. Power to the ratepayers, punish these scoundrels at the polls! As for the fatuous idea of moving the Watermans to central Hounslow, it has perhaps escaped the councillors' notice that so few people in Hounslow High Street these days speak English as their first language, that it will become a splendid white elephant, wonderfully droll for those with an ironic turn of mind (how Evelyn Waugh would have enjoyed the absurdity), but a small and irritating tragedy for the many local people (many like myself and my wife pensioners) who use and value the Watermans, as it is and where it is. Anticipating sanctimonious PC squawks, my reference to the wonderful variety of tongues to be heard in Hounslow High Street is n-o-t racist, emphatically not, merely a statement of fact... On that subject, I was amused to see multi-lingual signs in Sutton Coldfield recently, in French, Spanish, Polish, Turkish, Urdu, Gujerati, Arabic, Mandarin. . . Don't Feed The Pigeons! Is it possible that we've all gone bonkers in this country?

Stuart Parrott ● 4571d

CORRECTION - please note:  £1 per hour with first hour free APPLIES ALL THE TIME, from 7am right round to 7am the next day.

Jennifer Selig ● 4577d

I have now re-checked with Waterman's  The £1 per hour with the first hour free DOES NOT STOP AT 7pm, IT APPLIES ALL THE TIME, from 7am right round to 7am the next day.  Apologies if I misled anyone.It is £3 to park from 7pm - 7am.

Jennifer Selig ● 4577d

Am I mis-reading the £3 between 7pm - 7am.  Do they mean it's £3 per hour after 7pm?  I shall ring and check.

Jennifer Selig ● 4577d

The prices are not unreasonable. But i remember that a similar operation existed  at Richmond swimming pool - you got a refund for half the parking if you were a member of the gym and health club but you could only park for a max of 2 hours. 5mins over and there was a £60 ticket.If you use the gyms facilities properly then you are likely to run over 2 hours, more so if you have people with you.In the end people just stopped going.

Raymond Havelock ● 4577d

I've had it confirmed; during charging times, 7am to 7pm, when you buy 2 hours, the first hour is automatically free, so you pay £1.    If you want to park for 3hrs, again first hr is free so you pay £2.  You do not have to rush out in the middle of the film to start paying after the first hour is up.£3 to stay overnight, from 7pm to 7am,  must be the bargain of the year for those rash enough to leave their car into the wee small hours - wonder how long that price will hold? Or for that matter how long the other price will stay.  Who is the company employed by Watermans/LBH to run this car park, anyone know?  Bet they'll be sticklers for those not parking within the parking bays but straddling the painted lines - get yer specs. on folks if you don't want a PCN.

Jennifer Selig ● 4577d

A free first hour makes sense. I sometimes park for ten minutes to buy tickets in advance. I'm not paying a pound to do that! That said, I shall be getting the Friends' ten pound annual pass.I see your point, though. They are making it a bit complicated for themselves. I guess when you buy one hour, the machine will give you two.

Susan Kelly ● 4578d

If you are there for a 2 hr film you won't be able to benefit from the free hour as you will be in the cinema when that hour runs out.Better to make it 50p and hour across the board and £10 or 20 overnight surely? I wonder who parks their car overnight there.

Keith Iddon ● 4578d

So given that the average film is just under 2 hours, buying a ticket, using the loo having a bite to eat or a light refreshment.One is usually there for about two and a quarter hours. So one will have to pay for a full extra hour for just 15 mins.The same for classes which last an hour which means you will be there for about an hour and 10 mins.They must know that. A bit naughty.It does not say whether you can pay for part of an hour.It should be two hours free then charged thereafter.When people wise up they will probably sacrifice something . forfeit food or drink, or park elsewhere as highlighted on another forum entry all part of the back door scam to impose a CPZ in the Griffin Park area

Raymond Havelock ● 4578d

As we announced earlier this year we shall be giving the car park a refresh during January and from Monday 4 February we have contracted with a company to provide daily visits by security staff. There is however a price to pay for this and PAY & DISPLAY machines will be installed. Charges will be kept as low as possible and we have introduced a special all-inclusive annual rate for our FRIENDS (even more reason to become a FRIEND) This will make it easier for our customers to find a parking space, help us to keep the car-park safer and clean and tidy and remove cars that have been abandoned more quickly.Payment will be by cash in the machine or by phone. Machines will be located on both of the lower parking levels, but not on the top level. Charges are as follows:    1st hour free    Every subsequent hour £1.    Maximum in day £5 (7am - 7pm)                                Overnight parking £3 (7pm - 7am)    Blue Badge holders park for free if they park in one of the designated spaces and show their badge    Motorcycles are free if parked off the car-park or in one of the designated areas    FRIENDS will be able to buy a permit, valid for the duration of their FRIENDS membership for £10 from Watermans Box Office. This means that new FRIENDS will be entitled to a permit that will last a year. Existing FRIENDS will be entitled to a permit valid until their next renewal date. FRIENDS will be limited to one permit per householdThe Pay & Display will apply to the whole car-park including the upper roadside level. People who do not show a valid car parking ticket, or who are not registered as having paid by phone or who do not display a valid permit, run the risk of receiving a parking fine (£90, reduced to £50 if paid quickly). We are using an outside company to run this so we cannot give people dispensation to break the rules. So please do not ask.

Susan Kelly ● 4578d

Aerobics/excercise classes? Business seminars? All moving away from 'arts' I suppose but needs must surely?

Keith Iddon ● 4579d

"Watermans is a success because it it priced right for most local people. Especially older people.One forgets that ....... most people including home owners around here are of modest incomes and low incomes.Something our councillors have completely forgotten ...... Far from reality."You've hit the nail on the head Anthony!My friends and I have been 3 times this month, parking on site, going for lunch with a draft Tiger beer each and then the film - on each occassion, the cinema was packed, the restaurant almost full and the bar humming.  We are already booked for Les Mis and Lincoln and are considering 3 more films as well.Waterman's has a core of devoted patrons, if Waterman's were to close, it would be sadly missed - Richmond cinemas cannot replace it - too expensive, not easy parking (we bring full cars). Waterman's has almost become our "Day Centre" - it is an asset.The Waterman management just need to develop programmes to fill the rest of the space (yes Keith, good idea, school workshops, pre-school activities) and events to fill that lovely little theatre - what about some of the excellent local dramatic societies being encouraged to put on shows there?  Please keep our Watermans.

Jennifer Selig ● 4579d

I think there are also workshops for schools going on there and some kind of provision for pre school kiddies.I may be wrong but certainly these things used to go on there.

Keith Iddon ● 4579d

This is the point, it is well supported in the mainstream things it puts on. The Cinema is well supported even with some of the more obscure films and the balance it has between mainstream and cultural films is just about right.The Richmond cinema (s) are very expensive and although we used to go it caters for a very different clientele.Watermans is a success because it it priced right for most local people. Especially older people.One forgets that just because current house prices are stupid in this part of London and now only the domain of the very well paid, most people including home owners around here are of modest incomes and low incomes.Something our councillors have completely forgotten and assume that only council tenants are of low income. Far from reality.In this aspect watermans does have it right.It's a shame it could not have the place next door and have a arts materials retailer and a crafts school and so on and rehearsal rooms for hire.( Sky and the various independent production cos are stuck for rehearsal space with parking and facilities.)Brentford town is so dead that it lost it's arts and crafts shop. No-one was interested - which indicates what it may well be like if it moves

Anthony Waller ● 4579d

I was at Watermans last night to watch a film. The place was buzzing. The cinema was packed, very few seats  spare in the Guru and the bar was doing a roaring trade. What other place in Brentford had an attendance like this on a mid week evening. Or even the district

David Squire ● 4579d

If nothing else Waterman's seems to work OK as a small cinema so perhaps it should be just that, (no garish ads, no pop-corn) but having a decent cafe for lunches or suppers, a bar and parking.  The seats could be up-graded too!  Forget the arty f...y part as no-one seems interested in it anyhow - why flog a dead horse?  Maybe the company running the small cinema in Richmond could be persuaded to take it on?

Jennifer Selig ● 4579d

Why do people persist in the rose tinted view that Brentford is going to have a twee cafe  centre. It has all the facilities for that already but it won't happen because it won't work.It has neither the demographics nor will it have peaceful attractive surroundings if the current plans are anything to go by.It will be just like all the other other riverside developments soulesss and only good for visits for french lessons

Anthony Waller ● 4579d

I agree about the art exhibitions.I have popped in a few times to have a look at them and aside from one exhibition of the work of some of the kids in the borough,the rest were along the lines of 'here is me as an artist gazing at my own navel whilst patting myself on the back' type stuff.

Keith Iddon ● 4579d

I remain subbornly of the view that unless the redevelopment of Brentford means that Waterman's will be surrounded by new buildings thus linking it to the present shopping area and making it look genuinely part of Brentford High Street, the whole ruddy thing should go into a new building somewhere near the middle of the present shopping area, if not down on the developed waterfront area amongst the cafes and restaurants (the best place for it, but probably financially out of the question).  It just cannot be left isolated in no-mans-land where it is now, looking more like a public convenience than an arts centre, whatever money-saving tinkering they do with it.Does anyone know if there are any other arts centres in Hounslow?  (I believe the Paul Robeson centre in Hounslow itself has now closed).

Ann Williams ● 4579d

Whilst that's quite enlightening it does not really answer the question. If anything it throws up more.True, The Bricklayers Arms did do Jazz but not on the same nights, we went to both.The Red Lion even nearer to Watermans had a really great selection of Live Music.But Watermans thrived with competition on it's doorstep.Those rivals are gone and pretty soon when Brentford FC  move away theres a good chance that 5 pubs , MacDonalds, a fish & chip shop, a kebab shop and a chinese take away will also founder and vanish.The Watermans building was never any good, poorly designed and far from versatile. But even with that handicap it did really well.But it has been meddled with by politicians, intelectuals and each time it has turned on those who supported it by using it.The Arts is a loose word. It is obvious that much of the 'Art' aspect of Watermans is self indulgent and not of wide appeal much beyond self satisfaction.For a community, Arts is probably Pottery, drawing and painting, and crafts.Things that people can go and do, learn and explore and enjoy.Exhibitions of wider appeal and so on.But the ever dominant art intellectuals baulk at such a thing. Preferring to fete  the sort of off beam art that upsets the Daiiy Mail.Arts councils seem to have a habit of throwing money at exclusive minority expression whilst somehow keeping wider art activity away from the masses.Art is personal and a gift, if it really within you, you find a way to express it and nurture it at sometime in your life. Talent always gets spotted sooner or later.Watermans has on more than a few occasions turned it's back on popular ventures almost like it is ashamed to be mainstream.It has an unbeateable location one of which should not be developed for anything other than public use and certainly there will be a huge outcry if anything higher than exists is proposed.But it should be improved, far better use could be made of the riverside  which is public and should remain such.It is hard to see how it will be improved by moving. Nothing is being divulged as the what it will have, how big it will be and where it will be. But it is obvious that if it can't work where it is it will be highly unlikely if it will gain from moving, far more likely it will fade away altogehter

Anthony Waller ● 4580d

Since Watermans opened in the 1980's it has received millions of pounds in subsidies from public funds, including the former GLC, the Arts Council, and, every year since it opened, Hounslow Council. Local council taxpayers are Watermans' cash cow!Refurbishments a number of years ago were funded mainly from planning gain monies extracted from developers in the Brentford area. Some would argue that this was at the expense of other local community facilities, though councillors at the time saw Watermans as the priority.It has suffered from time to time from financial crises. Around the Millenium, for instance, if Hounslow Council and the Arts Council had not provided a huge rescue package the centre would have gone bust.The centre is still heavily subsidised, though this is almost always the case at arts venues.I noticed reference to the Sunday Jazz sessions that took place, if I remember correctly, 20 to 25 years ago. At the time these were in competition with the Bricklayers Arms in Ealing Road. Unlike Watermans, whose jazz events were heavily subsidised by public funds, the Bricklayers ran their events commercially. Sadly, the Bricklayers, like many other local pubs, has gone. Hounslow politicians have struggled over the years to justify the subsidy at Watermans. It was always low down on my priorities compared to youth centres and old people's centres, many of which have closed locally in the last decade. However, there has always been a vocal minority willing to campaign to retain arts subsidies at Watermans. When Hounslow Council changed political control in 2006 it is notable that people who annually proposed cuts in Watermans subsidies changed their tune when in office.What most people who have been involved with Watermans over the years would accept is that the present building, originally itself received as planning gain from developments next door, is not a good design for an efficient arts centre, subsidised or not.

John Connelly ● 4580d

The free car park is only free to users.It entails considerable expense to provide it free.

Keith Iddon ● 4580d

Thanks for repeating the typo Jennifer!;-)

Keith Iddon ● 4580d

Jenifer, the list of all the Watermans staff (including senior members) is given here:http://www.watermans.org.uk/contact/map--contact-info.aspxThe whole is run by something called the Houunslow Arts Trust Ltd, but if you google that, all you get is the Watermans website itself!

Ann Williams ● 4580d

"POliticians are not always up front with what is planned."  I'd re-word that Keith to "Politicians are seldom up front with what is planned."!It would be really helpful if the Art Council chap/chapess in charge of Waterman's would come forward and explain the "raison d'etre" of Waterman's.Why was Waterman's permitted to cease being the vibrant place so many on here remember?  Were the events that used to delight deliberatly spiked or stopped?  The cinema seems to prosper inspite of its, at times,  eccentric/unpredictable screen equipment and the hard seats.  The affordable prices and helpful box office staff are an asset, so is the free car park, so is its proximity to the wonderful 65 bus route.  Nice to be able to get a drink or coffee whilst waiting and even the limited but cheap and cheerful curries add to the "experience"!

Jennifer Selig ● 4580d

POliticians are not always up front with what is planned.Surely this is not news....?

Keith Iddon ● 4580d

But there are statutes that require councillors and a council to be open, transparent and honest about such issues. Why does it seem that the Watermans management or the 'Arts Council' are being less then open about this and why are the councillors so silent.They are in breach of their duty to their electors and council tax citizens. How is it they are getting away with such evasiveness?

Raymond Havelock ● 4580d

I agree to a point Richard but making a comparison with an ice rink?There is a feeling that the council,though they will deny it,want to move Waterman's so it can snaffle the land and put flats on it in cohoots with a developer.If that suspicion comes to fruition  obtaining a siting for Watermans in the new development is the only way of keeping it in the town and ensuring it has a future and not losing it to Hounslow or wherever else.

Keith Iddon ● 4580d

My friends and I love Waterman's cinema - OK we're not in  the first flush of youf but we're regular visitors - every week if there are good films on.  We're from Chiswick with two from Kew.  We'd support the lovely litle theatre too if it ever had anything on that appealed - last visit was some while back - the jazz group from Ronnie Scott's - just wonderful.The restaurant could be improved and not just the food - its few tables are very thinly spread about to fill the yawning bleak space.  The bar area too needs a make over to creat a more intimate and fun space.  Its all a bit like sitting in an aircraft hanger!  No advantage is taken of it's riverside setting - why not?Also, any "arts" venture seems very strange and remote from what most of the current visitors want and doesn't seem to bring in any other folk either - not sure who the audience is for this odd stuff.  On the few occasions I've wandered in there's been only an odd bewildered person, if anyone at all.  Beyond the bar area there are some folk engrossed in their laptops, don't know who or what they are - members of the public with no where else to roost out of the rain perhaps?Who actually is in charge of what happens at Waterman's?  What is the overall scheme/principle/aim of Waterman's?  No good saying "the Arts Council", I'd like a name and for that person to explain.  Currently it's an idea venue for a quick inexpensive "curry" and afternoon cinema outing for grey wrinklies and one we all thoroughly enjoy and shall miss once its gone.

Jennifer Selig ● 4580d

Having been away from the town of my birth and youth for some time I'm shocked and appalled at what has and what has not happened to it.The swimming pool has gone, the old folks place in Ealing road has gone, Pubs have gone, trees have gone, but why has it not got better?It has new developments which seem dead and souless and yet it still looks the same old run down place it always was. The crappy bits are still there but some of the developments, crumbs!! How did the council approve some of this stuff?From reacquainting myself with old pals and neighbours consensus seems  that Hounslow is still a plaything for small minded party politics of a stagnant  and dubious kind.So, some things never change and I guess this is the net result.But then, I hear about Watermans. For my youth to adulthood, this was the hub of Brentford, of the universe even. It had it all, great and varied music, live acts, quizes, good theatre, a nice cinema although it always seemed to have scratchy prints,a cheap bar, but always a great mix of people and a super atmosphere.It was never a great building, clearly designed by a council employee with a chip on his or her shoulder but it was buzzing and at times, packed.I walked in this week, cinema was great, but what a soulless place it has become.If it can't thrive here then moving will make no difference. There must be more than a few reasons why it has declined.But to commit to moving seems more like a bad workman blaming his tools.To commit to moving without any idea of where to or what to seems foolhardy at best.I'm old enough to remember almost the same scenario over Richmond Ice rinkWhere is that now?Promises, corruption, ineptitude, the whole episode was scandalous.And yet just a few miles up the river it's all showing remarkable parrallels.Smacks of developers desires and a colluding council with gullible or mislead people in between.  Truth if reading on here and in the papers is already a casualty.Deeply concerning. It should stay where it is, sort the building out and make it the thriving community asset once again.It really was the best thing that happened for  Brentford this side of WWll.

Raymond Havelock ● 4585d

Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, there is still no confirmation that there will be a place for Waterman's in the High Street developments.  All of you seem to be assuming that it will be allocated a site there.  I have been told by one of our councillors that it will not be in the first phase of development but 'might' be in the second.  I think there is a real possibility that it could end up disappearing because of the risk that the current site has to be handed over to a developer before provision has been made for it elsewhere.  The real worry is not its moving to Brentford High Street but that it could disappear altogether.  I think it is high time that Hounslow Council gave an absolute commitment to Waterman's continuity somewhere within Brentford.

Jean Masters ● 4585d

That's what I was talking about Guy.sunday's were great there.I also think that the cafe style eatery they had was better as it didn't dominate the place like the restaurant does and there was a choice of cuisine styles.When I go in now,I almost fel like I am going into a restaurant that has the rest of the place tagged onto it.I have never seen more than 6 or 8 people eating there at any one time.My wife and I ate there once and once only,if you know what I mean.

Keith Iddon ● 4588d

The proposed Waterman's move is part of the Ballymore development which will comprehensively redevelop virtually the whole of the South side of the High St from the old disused church to the old disused Wilson and Kyle building, and down to the river.This has every chance of really transforming the centre of Brentford and having Watermans at the heart of it (as is proposed ) would provide a focal point and a chance of turning a sadly neglected semi-derelict area into something really interesting.I think the current Watermans building is pretty awful and the refurb - now many years ago - was in my opinion pretty disastrous. I remember huge fun with Sunday lunchtime gigs in the foyer, packed out with all the little kids (and a few adults) dancing. It really felt like a community centre then.

Guy Lambert ● 4588d

I Agree Ann with most of what you say but if being litter blown means demolish and rebuild where do you propose the rest of London be re-located? I wouldn't say that the Watermans is isolated. Its right on a main road, the same main road that takes you into Brentford High St less than a few hundreds yards further down the road.I realy don't see that moving the arts centre those few hundred yards down the road is going to pull in hundreds of people. To be honest i can't think where a new arts centre could be built in the main Brentford High St or have i missed this in an earlier thread??Whatever, lets hope if or when this happens they choose an architect that can design something a little more eye catching than the current Watermans.

Sarah Thomas ● 4588d

Sarah, the regeneration of Brentford High Street might be given a kick-start if Watermans was actually in it. The developers might then sit up and take a bit of notice of the potential small gem that Brentford actually is; its relative tranquility and its unique position on the riverside give it the air almost of a small seaside town, and that could be wonderfully advantageous if developed with care.  Speaking of your reference to the present 'joke high street', I can only agree. I find it hard to credit that developers seem willing only to throw up yet more luxury apartment blocks without providing the necessary sub-structure of shops, restaurants and public amenities  to support them.  As to the present location of Watermans, don't get me started. Litter-blown isolation is far from the worst description I could have made.

Ann Williams ● 4588d

have to agree with Anthony on this. I haven't used the Watermans for alot of years but was never away from the place when it first opened.I can't agree with Annes comment 'that any move from the  present isolated and unattractive location (windswept, litter-blown, muddy etc) can only be an improvement'Is this building not on the main road served by the same buses that service the joke high street no more than 3 stops further down? and the term 'town centre'. If you blink you'd be excussed for missing Brentford Town Centre altogether. How about spending the money put aside for a new improved arts centre to better use and regenerate Brentford Town Centre, all 20 or so shops of it and spend the change on putting a perfectly good art centre, The Watermans' back to its former glory.also Anne you said 'Brentford town centre cries out for something distinctive enough and attractive enough to give it some significance, or to at least form a central focus point...' i agree with you on this point but would repeat the high street/town centre needs to be turned into just that. The last place anyone in Brentford goes if they need to shop for anything at all is Brentford High St/Town Centre

Sarah Thomas ● 4588d

What exactly IS the problem with the proposed move of Watermans Arts Centre? Surely not just the dreaded  charge for parking?  Surely not the ‘journey to the hinterland’?  As Keith has pointed out above, the proposed new location (assuming it’s in – or very close to – Brentford High Street) is very well served by bus routes.It seems to me that any move from the  present isolated and unattractive location (windswept, litter-blown, muddy etc) can only be an improvement.  Likewise, the addition to Brentford High Street of an improved Watermans Arts Centre could only be of great benefit to the town centre since it could be seen as almost a civic building in the absence of anything currently resembling one - no town hall,  no police station, no library, no church, no big-name supermarket - even Starbucks seems to have given it a miss. Brentford town centre cries out for something distinctive enough and attractive enough to give it some significance, or to at least form a central focus point, and a newly-designed Watermans could do just that.

Ann Williams ● 4588d

I am not sure they need all the space that they have at the moment.It is a large building taken over by the average restaurant.I remember when there used to be music there on a Sunday afternoon ,usually jazz,and it was aspace shared by everyone to sit and enjoy the ambience.The food there is not good imo and the bar adequate and unexceptional.If it does move to the new development,at least there will be a better choice of food and drink available to punters.As the bar is run by the people who also run the restaurant I doubt if Waterman's itself makes money from drinks sales.It does save itself the expense and kerfuffle of running a bar I suppose.Perhaps that's one of the reasons why there are no longer gigs and quiz nights.There is no space due to having a restaurant and no money in selling drinks.

Keith Iddon ● 4588d

That's also true but I lived in Northfields and used to drive with my mates.But nowadays I see very few Brentford people in there but a lot of faces from Kew Richmond and Ealing some of whom go back years.My main worry is that it's going to move to a smaller and more inferior location and agree with Tony on this, it could well finish it off.

Michael Brandt ● 4588d

It's swings and roundabouts really imo.Unless we do an effective poll of which punters come from where and how often and what method of transport they use we are talking out of our baseball caps imo.Ealing has many areas where to type pf people to whom I think you refer would live and the E2 and E8 are readily available to them(Castlebar,Haven Green,Ealing Broadway,north part of West Ealing).I lived in Hanwell for 12 years and used Waterman's about as often as I do now.In fact I used it more because of the gigs and the quiz nights etc.Those are the sorts of things that will increase the audiences.Not whether you have to walk 5 minutes from the bus stop imo.

Keith Iddon ● 4588d

But Tony has a point here.The 65 is a key trunk bus route brings in the paying customers as it's a long route linking affluent towns. It is also a 24 hour service so you can get home late at night. I wish it had been like that when I was a teenager!The E2 and E8 are local routes and apart from Northfields, do not really serve a potential market.It's also near Kew Bridge Stn which is zone 3, Brentford is zone 4 and a hefty extra on the fare.If Watermans gets buried away somewhere, then people will simply not bother.On costs, well it's a shoestring operation like most arts centres everywhere.What do the friends and members do?I'm a friend and a member of a couple of organisations and we do all these tasks.As a teenager I was doing stuff at the Questors Theatre in Ealing, that involved anything from litter and parking duty to varnshiing wooden doors.Everyone mucked in and that what made it fun although it did become a bit too highbrow and elitist for me.Heritage associations, and clubs all often rely on volunteers and a lot of the work is dirty,and potentially dangerous but risk assesments and safety training are done first and it works.  Even groups on allotments face the elements to keep sites shipshape.So if parking charges are going to cover this, what happens if people either don't come, or park elsewhere?Where will the money come from if the place moves to a site with no parking at all , which appears to be the case?

Michael Brandt ● 4588d

Sorry that was to Anthony.

Keith Iddon ● 4588d

If it is moved Michael it will be on 2 bus routes from Ealing.E8 and E2 and will be a 5-7 minute walk from where it is now.Hardly any great distance.If you expect people to walk 15 mins(quite reasonable),you can equally expect them to walk from the 65 bus stop surely.I think people are concerned that there are plans afoot at council level to move Waterman's to Hounslow.Securing a berth for it in the new development is seen as a way,possibly the only way,of keeping it in the town.

Keith Iddon ● 4588d

Thanks for adding a little perspective Leigh.

Keith Iddon ● 4588d

It costs us about £6,000 a year to have someone pick up litter once a day. Lighting costs about £500 a year. Gardening about £400. And maintaining the CCTV £250...and that's before we've paid the rates, had the walls cleaned and painted, painted the lines, unchained the supermarket trolleys, towed the abandoned cars away and replaced the signs.Watermans isn't a profit-making enterprise. It recycles everything it makes into keeping prices low and making the programme as accessible as possible to people who need it most. We're just trying to do this a bit more.

Leigh Stops ● 4588d

Does not really matter who is involved, fact is a deal with a parking company who want a maximum slice of residents parking fees was not mentioned or presented as such.That is deception, whatever way it is packaged.

Michael Brandt ● 4589d

Why on earth do you think the decision to start parking charges at the Watermans is to do with Ed Mayne?I presume it's a decision by its management and trustees. Ed Mayne is not a trustee - the only councillor, I believe, is Peter Carey who is not even in the same party as Ed Mayne!

Guy Lambert ● 4590d

So my "bucket of cold water and jaundiced remarks" were not much compared to what has been revealed.I wonder why there is so much silence from certain quarters?

Anthony Waller ● 4590d

There used to be a lot of comedy gigs at the theatre, which were always well attended. I remember seeing Jeremy Hardy and Sean Hughes there, but it no longer seems to be on the circuit.

Susan Kelly ● 4590d

LBH, Lead Cllr Ed Mayne of Isleworth's decision to implement parking charges is nothing to do with safety or improving the car park, it's to do with the fact that he is about to sign LBH up to a long term contract with private company NCT (ex National Car Parks)to police and manage all the boroughs' car parks and parking meters.  NCT need to maximise their profits so want blanket coverage, with no free parking areas.A group of us, 4 to 8 OAP's, go regularly to Watermans having a bargain curry lunch then to see the film.  It makes a good half day outing which we all thoroughly enjoy.  Went yesterday (Quartet) and there was not a spare seat to be had.  We regulars travel by car as not on a direct bus route, making full use of the free car park - crowded yes but room (so long as twits don't park in the centre of two spaces!).  We're booked up for The Life of Pi and for Impossible so can be considered good customers and supporters.None of us want W'mans moved - why should it be just because LBH wants to sell the site to developers for yet more bland tower block dormitory flats  Where it is on the 65 bus route between Ealing and Kingston brings lots of supporters from those areas.  Once it is moved off that 65 bus route, those folks will not visit.  I believe mums and children use the facilities too.I do think the theatre at W'mans could be put to better use.  They are trying with two classical music  programmes coming up very soon.  Why not a few Jazz evenings or even lunchtime sessions?  It really is not much use W'man's having only ethnic shows - where ever it is sited in Brentford these will not bring in many supporters - it's the wrong area.  The (now closed??) Paul Robson theatre in Hounslow was much better positioned.  W'man's should not discard it's core supporters, if it does it will most certainly wither and die.  It's a gem waiting to be more fully used for art, music, dance as well as cinema.  The cafe/bar/restaurant could also be expanded - it's a great site right on the river and deserves to be saved at its present position.

Jennifer Selig ● 4591d

'Regulars never park there so will continue not to.'This regular always parks there, unless it is full.

Susan Kelly ● 4599d

Indeed they must be doing a few things right as it is better than it has been for a long time and the cinema has been great these past few years - although it has been a bit barren over the last 6 months.But Anthony has raised some very valid points, not what I would call a rant.Like many in Brentford  who have long patronised the centre, he is absolutely right. Moving Watermans without assurances of a better facility could well kill it.I suspect the sudden interest in the car park after many years of it being inexplicably neglected and now revamped with charges is a precursor to a new site without any car parking or expensive parking. Regulars never park there so will continue not to.It was policed by staff in it's heyday and was often full ages before the start of  a performance or event.  Checking the car park should be part of the job, the same as checking the toilets, the locks, the fire extinguishers, lights & tickets. Just like one does at any venue.At the recent public meeting at St. Paul's Church hall over the development proposals, the one issue not from the developers  that caused a ripple of consternation was the re-siting of Watermans. It clearly is something that is not universally popular and that seems to be the case with the many people I know who regularly use the cinema and other events.Those who consistently use the place and support it are it's backbone. To risk ostracising them is a big risk, especially in an era where arts funding may diminish even more and almost certainly won't increase for maybe a whole generation.The funny thing is that it seems to be history repeating itself.It was a hugely popular venue for all sorts of stuff and then someone decided it was too mainstream and all the other stuff that implies.So it all got changed and that was that. Desecrated for years.It's much better but still not a patch on the place it was.

Michael Brandt ● 4599d

I remember the days of the Liverpool Poets, Steeleye span, Fairport Convention and lots of other folk groups. It was a mecca of folk music and poetry in London.

Neil Chippendale ● 4599d

I think there's something to be said for pay-and-display parking. It's pretty obvious that non patrons are using the car park at the moment and I gather that abandoned cars are being dumped there. I don't mind paying a small fee to be reasonably sure of a space.Mind you, with the narrow gaps between pillars, it would also help if there weren't so many bad drivers taking up two spaces.

Susan Kelly ● 4600d

* Rising cinema audiences and sell-out performances in the theatre in December* Outdoor events attended by over 60,000 people last year* Part of a group that has been awarded £500,000 by the Arts Council to produce and tour outdoor arts eventsAnd managing to make a small surplus each year in one of the most difficult financial environments that has ever been experienced...

Leigh Stops ● 4600d

Maybe a bucket of cold water is what is needed to wake people up.I love the Watermans, it's been a place of focus for me and my friends going right back to when it opened and we were still at school.But whilst it's had a bit of a renaissance in recent years, it is a shadow of what it once was. It's also had too many years in the doldrums caused by political meddling and very poor direction. And, as is the norm in the arts world, gets a bit cliquey.In the mid 80's it was well and truly on the map as one of the UKs top theatre and arts venues. The Pop quiz was legend and packed out every time.The New Year gigs sold out year after year and the place buzzed.How will a new location make that happen again?It still does some pretty good stuff but has drifted away from what it is supposed to be and it is a pretty good facility despite being a poorly designed building.It was founded for the impoverished people of Brentford a district that had been on a downer since the end of WW2. It's done marvels for both this town and South Ealing which is also short on facilities.But the silence from the  Hounslow Arts Trust and the constant denials throughout 2011 and 2012 about moving are now not 'silly rumours' but a clear intention.What is far from clear is what will we end up with?The whole thing is reliant on grants, and funding which comes from residents, taxpayers and most importantly those who pay to use it and support it, should it not be a lot clearer what is going on? Developers and LBH may want the site to plonk another tower block on but with no guarantees of a better facility, should they even be considering a move?It has echoes of the Richmond Ice Rink debacle and where is the new Ice Rink?If that's a rant then fine but better than sitting on a fence and nodding and then crying after the milk is spilt.No-one has come forward and even hinted at what a replacement facility will provide or where and how it will be widely used and successful.It needs much wider debate and proper consultation rather than the usual loaded questions.

Anthony Waller ● 4600d

Thanks for the bucket of cold water, Anthony. is this rant just your wildly jaundiced opinion, or do you actually know something - anything - about the subject?

Ann Williams ● 4600d