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What exactly were you after?The implication that I have secretly devoted the last fifteen years of my life to furthering the cause of an organisation which consists of a hundred neo-Nazi boneheads and solvent abusers is as much an insult to your intelligence as it is to mine.  You never explain how the NF could benefit from my actions if this had been my master plan.It is last-resort stuff Alan as well you know.  I think you are too intelligent to believe it yourself and it seems to be used most frequently as a means of avoiding the issue which is pivotal to the whole debate, that is Labour's intolerant and obsessive behaviour which has led the community to go its own way and to ignore the "official" institutions which you control but which in truth barely exist other than in name.To suggest that I have any political ambitions of any kind is just plain silly.  Take a look at the world map and ask yourself where I go from here.  I have other things to do in life and you are keeping me from them, which is what pees me off more than anything else.  But I won't give up until certain injustices are overcome and wrongs are righted.  That is just my nature and for better or worse I cannot change it.People aren't buying into this NF thing Alan and the fact that you persist with it regardless suggests to me that you have nothing else.  It's all downhill from here I'm afraid.Possibly you know yourself that your Isleworth people have handled things badly and are standing by them out of loyalty.  Loyalty is a good thing, but in this case it will cost you and your party dearly if it is not accompanied by an honest reappraisal of the situation.  If you are clever about it you can put things right without having to rub your colleagues' noses in it too obviously.Only you have the power to decide where it all goes from here Alan.  All I can say to you is that without a change of attitude on the part of the Labour Party locally the die remains cast and there is probably little I could do about that at this late stage even if I wanted to.Your call.

Phil Andrews ● 7401d

Not good enough I'm afraid, Jim.  You are not a member of the Labour Party, your soul is not forfeit to The Great Ones, and therefore you must be silenced.Ideally you should not have an opinion but if you must then you should at least have the decency not to share it with others.  Should you attempt to join a local amenity group and work constructively within the rules, TGO will be on the phone to the Chair (who must be a Member, nobody else allowed) and you will be banished forthwith.  If you then set up a separate organisation in which all citizens can freely participate it will be denounced as a fiendish plot cooked up by an fringe political party which pretends to consist of a hundred glue-sniffers but is really poised and ready to achieve world domination.  That you have only done it in the first place because you were prevented from playing by the rules (TGO rules) will not be mentioned in any future dialogue and thus hopefully forgotten about in the mists of time.If you are a tenant with an agency for a landlord which is dominated by TGO, you will be given a hard time of it.  Should you try to join a tenants' group it will be pressurised into dumping you under threat of withdrawal of the financial support which TGO give them to keep them on side.  You will not even be able to take up private tenancy issues with your landlord because the more difficult your life at home, TGO figure, the less time you will have available to work in your community.Should you try to join an aid agency or international charity its organisers will be leant on to drive you out, under threat of withdrawal of support from TGO.  The fact that TGO has no interest in supporting them anyway because there is no political mileage to be made from it will not be mentioned.  It doesn't matter if the charity folds through lack of support when you are gone, better a few little fuzzy-wuzzies should die hungry than you get any recognition for your part which might reflect badly by comparison upon TGO.Everything will be done behind the scenes, in the dark and by whispers.  It is not that TGO know that what they are doing is wrong, you understand.  They are just publicity-shy (well, apart from the MP when there is a general election looming and somebody else's hard work for which the credit remains unclaimed.  Especially if the taxi to Mogden can be claimed on expenses).Finally, please be advised that TGO has a master strategy for dealing with the likes of you, who dare not to lie down like the dogs you are and take whatever is thrown at you in the cause of The Party, and it goes like this:First TGO provoke you into standing as an independent candidate and challenging for their council seats.  You will have no chance of winning anyway because they've used their council majority to site the polling stations to their maximum advantage.What was that?  You've won anyway?  No matter, you won't be able to achieve much because your success or failure depends on the goodwill of the Civic Centre and TGO have been burrowing away in there for thirty or so years to ensure that their people are in place where needed.  Two weeks after you are elected a senior housing officer will announce to you that his staff have been instructed not to extend you the same co-operation as to other councillors.  That will stop you in your tracks.Oh, it hasn't stopped you in your tracks?  Okay, TGO will try the old NF thing again and see if they scare the stupid minorities into coming out in droves and re-electing their candidates.  Ah...the minorities have seen through it and are voting for you instead?  No worries, there is a Plan B - TGO will deny they knew what was written on the leaflets which they were frantically distributing on the eve of polling day.  Phew, thought of that one just in time! The last part of the plan is to try to provoke you into throwing your hat into the ring for the general election.  Hopefully you will take more opposition votes than TGO ones and our honest, ethical and hard-working MP will be re-elected once more - whatever those splitters at Viewpoints may say to the contrary.Problem - most of your support has traditionally come from TGO's base on the council estates.  TGO have thought of this one too................................................................................................. (Alan please fill in the rest).

Phil Andrews ● 7401d

Alan: You will appreciate that whilst I have lived in the Borough (Isleworth and Chiswick) for nearly 66 years...it was not until I purchased my first computer some 12 months ago that I started to become interested in what goes on in the Borough...via meandering around the Local websites.Reading of Chiswick's crime reports..I was facinated to find out about the various local groups and sub-groups that existed.I have seen some Area Meetings at work and also a Police Consultative Group. Whatever their policital persuasion..I have generally admired all I have seen...with exceptions!(The unsmiling Mayor chairing Council Meetings for one.. and his poor demeanor at the unvieling of the V2 memorial in Chiswick. (Who are these people I quizzed to myself)I struggled to get any clear information from your goodself with regard to the HM magazine issue. I failed on that. At all the Police Consultative Meetings I attended I didn't hear one word about Mrs Keen...although on her old website page she bragged about how much SHE was doing with regard to Police recruitment. And yet in my 6 months involvement with debate in Chiswick about combating crime and residents needing some kind of re-assurance..she never seemed to have relayed any messages to us.At that time access to her locally seemed to be shrouddedin mist.A new website for Mrs Keen appears to have been introduced. very recently (2005)..perhaps..but only perhaps in response to "point scoring activies" on this Forum and W4's and in the local press".If only it sounded as if she were the leader of a local team..rather than I've done this or that. Her scriptwriter could make her pronouncements more (rounded).Her website talks of the Constituency being linked " to Old Deer Park, Richmond and Kew Gardens. In my view, her constituences contribution to Kew Gardens is to seemingly approve the erection of ugly buildings to overlook Kew ...Her website highlights "achievements". Well thats fine "Has been particularly been involved in" would be more long-winded  but less bragging. Achievements on LOCAL police matters states the following:[ • Brentford & Isleworth is within the Metropolitan police force area. Since spring 2001 there are 1,990 more police officers fighting crime in this force. That means a total of 26,868 police officers tackling crime and anti-social behaviour locally] !!!! local? overstated?I spoke with two key civic participants at lasts Monday's Police Meeting. (0-2 sadly was the score for Mrs Keen).Then I read what I read...hear what I hear..and draw a conclusion of sorts. Then I asked a friend who did some tradesman's work at Mrs Keen's Brentford home (0-3).One then reads of the Evening Standard report (0-4).I then visited the House of Parliament recently for a function..and spoke with a Deputy Speaker. He was so charming and informative..he was hailed by the group of non policital friends who knew him well that I said to myself...why does Ann Keen attract such criticism?(0-5).The Evening Standard gives her One point for some reason or other..whilst a Lib Dem nearby gets Five points.Regarding Phil Andrews. I don't hear any boos about him except from a few of you..but I'll listen out. I visit Isleworth a lot..north and south..I'll keep my ear to the ground. I'll check out on Mrs Keen's "unjustified flak" too.  Watch this space!!If

Jim Lawes ● 7402d

Alan I appreciate the last comment but much of this is going nowhere and in some cases is frankly silly.The letter to the Times was written in my capacity as a committee member of MRAG.  When it was not published I pointed out to other members of the committee that the local papers seemed to be giving me the silent treatment lately, both on ICG issues and on completely unconnected matters.  For example my sponsored walk to Abingdon (well, Reading) - nothing to do with the ICG but a good local cause - was given the briefest of mentions in the Chronicle and completely ignored by the Times.  Two other, very major stories of a slightly more political nature have also been smothered by the local press in recent weeks.In the light of the above, I suggested that the letter (which they had told me they liked) might have more chance of being published if it didn't have my name attached to it, so it was sent in the name of the MRAG committee.  Nothing sinister.I don't know for absolute certain whether there are any members of the Labour Party on MRAG, but I would be extremely surprised if there were.  In my experience Labour people tend to be very upfront, indeed forthright, about their party affiliations and place it ahead of anything else.  I believe I have more or less the full list of current party members in Isleworth (not the world's largest document it has to be said) and none of them are on MRAG.  Besides, I recall your party's attitude when MRAG was formed.  You don't exactly have much of a track-record when it comes to working with independent residents' groups, do you?The comment about you being on committees without knowing for certain the affiliations of others would amuse some of my associates in Isleworth.  Certain tenants' groups and similar organisations in Isleworth have expelled more members than they have left on the grounds of the imagined political affiliations or sympathies of those concerned.  By your criteria there must have been a lot of innocent victims.You didn't, I notice, make any comment on my assertion that Labour Party control-freakery has been the root cause of political developments in Isleworth during recent years, manifested most obviously in the formation and growth of the ICG.  I would be interested to know where you see all these developments leading.  Are you prepared to court complete electoral wipeout throughout the constituency rather than compromise your exclusivist approach?If you are then you have my respect for at least sticking to your guns, but I cannot see any other way out for you unless you are prepared to change.

Phil Andrews ● 7402d

AlanDo you not find it odd that MRAG was not mentioned by name in the press release, seeing as Ann Keen and at least one Labour councillor were mentioned by name and yet it was an MRAG campaign which had led to the court action being brought?Could you please specify which particular words, deeds or events in the past you would like me to apologise for and to whom?  I have already apologised, and will happily do so again, to members of ethnic minorities and anybody else who may have suffered directly in any way as a consequence of my activities in the 1970s and 1980s.  I will not however apologise to the Labour Party for being stupid enough to provide it with so many propaganda opportunities during that period.I don't think I have ever made a secret of the fact that I am a founder member of MRAG's management committee.  That is because when MRAG was formed I offered it my unqualified support and assistance.  The then Labour councillors were not prepared to help a community initiative which they were not in control of.  That is the only reason why I am a member of the MRAG committee and no Labour Party member is.Yet again you either miss or pretend not to understand the essential point where organisations such as Ivytag, MRAG and the ICSF are concerned.  The ICG exists solely to encourage the creation and promotion of organisations such as these, so it hardly an issue that some of their leading members are also members of the ICG is it?You seem to forget that former chairs of the ICSF include Vanessa Smith and Peter Smith, both former Labour Party councillors, as was former Liberal Democrat councillor Laurence Mann, so it cannot seriously be argued that it was set up by the ICG as a front group if that is what you are suggesting.What it comes down to is this - your support, or that of any local member of the Labour Party, would be welcomed by any of these organisations.  Local groups which are controlled or influenced by members of your party, on the other hand, routinely expel or drive out members who are or who are suspected of being politically unsympathetic to yourselves.  I was not welcome at meetings of the ICSF when Vanessa was Chair - she would be most welcome to attend such meetings today, but chooses not to.  That is her right, of course, but can you not understand the difference?For all the distractions and bluster Alan the fact which remains when all the arguing is done is that the ICG is the product of a quarrel picked by yourselves with the community which you claim to serve.  Had you not picked the quarrel we wouldn't be here, and we wouldn't have three elected councillors in Isleworth.Now a new quarrel is being initiated by the constituency MP and her campaign workers in the run-up to a general election.  I'm sure there is a logic in your method somewhere, but I'll be darned if I can work out what it is.

Phil Andrews ● 7402d

PhilI have clearly demonstrated that you were wrong in your assertions that Labour Party politicians wanted to take all the credit for the work over Mogden. We all know that many individuals and organisations including MRAG, the Council, local Councillors and your MP Ann Keen played a part, the Councils own press release (although not specifically mentioning MRAG) made this clear.  Instead of having to good grace to admit your mistake, you have resorted to the usual bluff tactics. You are trying to draw attention away from exposure of your real purpose for starting this thread. The purpose was to create another opportunity for you and your chums to have a go at the Labour Party Ann Keen and the Council. My advice to you - as you have asked for it - is to start with an unequivocal apology for your racist past, move along and apologise to all of those that you have unfairly insulted and berated over the years, then we can take it from there. I am happy to coach you if you like. On a more serious note: In your first posting on this thread you said“MRAG is probably the finest example of a local community-based, resident-led interest group which has operated without the stifling influence and interference of party politics.”In a later posting you say“Meanwhile a letter from myself on the subject which had been rejected by the Times was resubmitted last week in the name of the MRAG committee - and published.”Could you please confirm exactly what influence you and the Isleworth Community Group (a political party) are trying to exert over MRAG and why they should be fronting your letters?Could you also please confirm exactly what relationship you and the ICG have with IVYTAG, how many of its leading members are also ICG members and associates. Then perhaps you could tell us about the ICG connections with the leading members of the Isleworth Community Safety forum.

Alan Sheerins ● 7402d

Phil you are the one who is insecure, here is what was said by Ann Keen and Ron Bartholomew in the Councils press release.Ann Keen MP (Isleworth & Brentford) endorsed the decision, saying: "This is a victory for local people. A long-overdue and common sense decision has been taken by the court, and I welcome it wholeheartedly.“I have worked with residents on this problem over many years, liasing with the Council, Thames Water and government ministers. I pay tribute to the work of residents, London Borough of Hounslow Councillors and officers, the government and all those who have campaigned so hard to raise the profile on Mogden Sewage Treatment works and ensure justice is done."Cllr Ron Bartholomew, Hounslow’s Executive Member for Enhancing our Environment, said: “Residents have been subjected to an unacceptable quality of life as a result of the smell from the sewage works, which is why we took action against Thames Water in 2001 and served abatement notices on the grounds of statutory nuisance.“I welcome this decision as an important step in the fight to improve the environment for the local community. It is also a vindication of all the work Hounslow Council and the residents have done, and I would urge Thames Water to work with them to abate this problem for the benefit of everyone concerned.”I would hardly say that Ann or Ron take credit for themselves and Labour Party Councillors only. Yet again you are trying to sow discontent. It is clear to me that you are the person who is unable to engage positively with the MP, other Councillors and all of the local community to get the essential work done. You are clearly an intelligent and able person, but you are blighted by being unable to leave your NF political style behind you, it is such a pity.

Alan Sheerins ● 7402d

AlanI'm sorry friend but you and I both know where the work on the Mogden campaign has come from.As I have stated before, although (unlike Ann Keen or any other Labour Party member) I serve on the committee of the Mogden Residents'Action Group, I would freely admit that my role has been a minor one compared with those of some others.I have also been more than happy to recognise the efforts of my political opponents where such recognition has been deserved (witness my posting just last night announcing that Dr. Vince Cable MP had secured a debate in the Commons).You have yourself acknowledged that the residents have played a major role in the Mogden campaign.  Why then did the press statement issued by the London Borough of Hounslow's PR office following the Feltham judgement only plug the "contribution" of Ann Keen and certain Labour councillors, giving no mention whatsoever to the residents who have done the huge bulk of the work?  Is it the role of council officers, whose salaries are paid for by the local community, to be trying to salvage Ann Keen's reputation in the light of recent revelations about her expense claims?  Is this what our Council Tax is subsidising?The Mogden Residents' Action Group, as far as I'm aware, will not be fielding a candidate in the general election.  Why then does Mrs. Keen feel the need to take the credit for all their work and to try to push them out of the picture?  Is she really that insecure?  Is she so worried, like the editor of Viewpoints, that she is on course to lose her parliamentary seat (and associated perks and expenses)?Why are you having a pop at Jim Lawes?  He strikes me as a sensible, balanced and quite neutral observer.  Is everybody who is not with the Labour Party to be considered an enemy?  I think you are losing it, Al. It takes a special type of person to be able to swan along to Mogden as bold as brass and allow her press people (and LBH's, it would seem) to try to cover her in the reflected glory of other people's successes.  Especially so when those other people are not even her opponents, but ordinary residents who have given up so much of their time to try to improve the quality of life for the neighbouring community.  How desperately sad can you get?What ever you might say Alan, I have no political purposes where major policy issues are concerned.  But I am absolutely determined that this new low, ammoral style of politics which New Labour seems to be making its own should not in the name of decency be allowed to succeed.Ann Keen is by her conduct welling up powerful opposition to her cause which would in normal circumstances have been happy to remain neutral.  Is this what you really want happen Alan? 

Phil Andrews ● 7402d

Alan.In my opinion, if the criticism is constructive and is relevant to the thread, then it doesn't bother me, li'll ole voter, who I am.I think the feeling here is that maybe people around Ann (or Ann herself, I don't pretend to know how any of this works) are piggy backing her on to a success purely to obtain votes out of the situation, where the points should be scored out of a team of people working together for the public good.  And the suggestion being mooted on several threads, is that She is missing from that team? This is coupled with the angst from others on the threads that they approach their MP for a particular response, and don't get anywhere.  I empathise because of personal experiences of approaching the Civic Centre which I have detailed in a light way, on the forum, but which of course are pretty serious.IF this is the case, then please save her salary and employ her as Gordon Browns aid, but don't pretend that we have a representative within the so called democratic process some of our people who have attained positions within, claim is fair.I do however, have some understanding of what you are saying, but from a slightly different perspective.  I find the constant moaning at every given opportunity about 'anyone' very grating.  In your reply give an ideal example in your snipe about Phil’s supposed/ actual/whatever background.  A persons background goes with their present to help form the person who they are, everyone unique. As it is discussed in line with a thread, if I disagreed, I could make a response or ignore it.Others are entitled to opinions, it is how those opinions are used and whether they directly affect others which is the most important.  The difficulty I have is I sometimes feel that I want to question what the poster is saying because they are often making points out of somebody else.  Most of the time though you know it isn't worth a response because it will just give more attention to the original comment and maybe even keep the thread at the top, when it doesn't deserve even being opened.I will give an example, a recent posting on Ex MP Nirj Deva on Chis-wick was so inappropriate that it really stunned me.  It said more about the character who was writing it than anything else - unless it was a false trail.  Either way, it deserved a reply so I e-mailed him directly.  I had an e-mail conversation with somebody else (I didn't detail what my comments were just that I had sent them to him directly)and was asked in another e-mail whether I had received a reply.  My answer was that I didn't expect him to reply, as there wasn't any political gain (for him personally; nothing to do with Nirj Deva) in doing so.I don't personally feel any comments have been made here which are inappropriate, if you disagree, then that is the point to make.

Sarah Felstead ● 7402d