Forum Topic

Scottish Independence

Just a thought but if the Scots vote for independence from the rest of the UK how would that affect Scots sitting as MPs in non-Scottish constituencies and vice versa?I know non-UK citizens may stand here in European elections but, as far as I'm aware, they cannot stand for Parliamentary elections. Whatever your views/nationality/party affiliation can anyone throw some light on this topic?

John Bradley ● 4449d33 Comments

But my understanding was that she was born in London and could claim English nationality.

Tim Henderson ● 4443d

JohnAre you looking for opinions or information?  If the latter I'd have thought Google would have been your better option.  Cut out the middle man and all that.

Phil Andrews ● 4443d

People.This has been entertaining but not greatly informative. To go back to my original question I asked about whether Scottish nationals would be eligable to sit in the House of Commons. As we live in a constituency which has a Scot as an MP would she be disqualified if Alex Salmond has his way? I'm not arguing for or against Nationalism (for the record I think the Scots would be unwise to vote for it but I respect their right to do so if they wish) I am merely curious as to the effect the referendum would have on the General Election down here. Is there no-one who can throw light on it. I'd ask Mary Mcleod direct but she is not a disinterested party.

John Bradley ● 4443d

Reely..?

Keith Iddon ● 4445d

It's no good,you'll have to explain that Keith. ;0)

Tony Wood ● 4445d

It's all a bit fishy if you ask me...

Keith Iddon ● 4445d

I've ploughed through the 670 page "White Paper on Scottish Independence" (I really must get a life!).    This is from the Guardians pecis. "Scottish passports will be issued to all people who secure Scottish citizenship. British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens - as well as Scottish born British citizens living outside Scotland. It will also be open to those who have Scottish parents or grandparents, people who have lived here for 10 years, while migrants can apply for “naturalisation.”"This might be a bit contentious: "Oil and gas from the North Sea is largely based in Scotland’s share of the UK continental shelf and the document indicates that this includes more than 90% of oil and gas revenues. The sector itself was worth about £22 billion to Scottish GDP last year."  In common with Alisdair Darling and others I find the whitepaper a tad over optimistic. I'm not sure that anyone can produce such a tome without finding one negative,...that... Mr Salmond has achieved.  Most importantly there is no plan B,it will all work perfectly first time,it won't be another Holyrood Palace (hopelesley overbudget) or an  Edinburgh tram fiasco (we've run out of money so the trams stop here),everything will go exactly to the Salmond/Sturgeon plan.

Tony Wood ● 4445d

Many people born in London to Irish parents have Irish passports. The Scots may allow the same.

David Giles ● 4445d

That made me laugh 'till my eyes watered,I still can't see properly ;0)  It's just the incongruity of using an asterisk in the middle of a swearword that everyone can work out that gets me.Oh dear just had another fit of the giggles,and another,and another,I'm a wreck...Cheers

Tony Wood ● 4447d

I don't know...every time you use an expletive you think of Vanessa? Even I think that's a bit harsh..!

Keith Iddon ● 4447d

What did I do now?

Tony Wood ● 4447d

You may have just made things worse Tony..;-)

Keith Iddon ● 4447d

There's been an understandable misunderstanding Vanessa,in this household a Vanessa is an ast*risk, named after your use of them in your occasional lapses into semi industrial language,which we both find funny.   My wife doesn't swear,well the occasional "bloody hell what have you done now" is known (the same can't be said for myself (************ fortunately)(don't count them it means nothing),so a "complete Vanessa" is a total disaster,one happened yesterday when the exhaust on my car fell off miles from anywhere in pitch black,lots of Vanessas flying about then!   Of course there's no way you could have known all that,and for which I really do apologize,I wont use it again on the forum,but will use it freely around Argyll.  Best regards and keep up the *********s

Tony Wood ● 4447d

Preston:Band C £1401 Band D 1576Hounslow C £1233.95 D 1388.95Dunfermline( for instance) C £1343  D 1511.It's no wonder if some northerners ,including Scots,feel a little aggrieved looking at the reality of these figures, especially if you factor in property sale prices and the better services and facilities that are on our doorstep in London and how London centric most development and planning seems to be.But thanks for highlighting the discrepancies Tony  ;-)

Keith Iddon ● 4447d

English..born in England?

Keith Iddon ● 4447d

But how do you define the nationality of people who are born in London to Scottish parents and then lived in Chiswick for years before the family returned to Scotland ?Could they have dual nationality ?

Tim Henderson ● 4447d

I think it is unlikely that the Scots will vote for Independence. The Scots I know are too canny for that. Right now they have the best of all worlds - membership of the EU, the UN Security Council, NATO, the Council of Europe, the pound, subsidies from England, the Royal Family, the Royal Navy, the Army, the RAF etc by virtue of their 300 year old union with England and Wales. If they were to leave the United Kingdom, they would have a lot to lose and little to gain.

David Giles ● 4447d

You may not agree with me - but please stop using my name in such an insulting manner.

Vanessa Smith ● 4447d

My sincere apologies for dragging Lancashire and Yorkshire into the debate,I was trying to make the point of how stupid any preconceptions about origins are,a tad clumsily I'll admit. I did have a friend up here from Yorkshire (now deceased) who was rabidly anti "London" it took me years to get him to accept that Londoners had it just as hard (if not harder)than Yorkshiremen,then he died! In his case at least it most certainly wasn't tongue in cheek.  As for my prejudices,I can put my hand on my heart and say I have none as far as peoples origins are concerned everyone(afaic)starts off as a blank sheet of paper,something that stems from trying for the last 40+ years to follow Bhuddist teachings,mostly I fail miserably!  No, instead I chose you as the only "northerner" that I know on the forum,again apologies, but maybe it helped others to realise how Scots feel about southern preconceptions about themselves as scrounging whingers,I doubt it though! ***"The thing I can never understand is how people are so happy when the EU grants us money for something or other..that'll be them giving us back some of the money we have already given them..."***  Now there's something that we totally agree on,I can only imagine it's some sort of levelling process.***"Oh and btw bus fares in Preston are higher than in London."***  Yes and council tax in Scotland is a lot higher in Scotland than in Preston,as is the price of home deliveries from major suppliers etc. etc.  It's as well to remember that Britain as is,fits into Texas four and a half times,if they can all get on together so can we,guns or no guns! 

Tony Wood ● 4448d

Oh and btw bus fares in Preston are higher than in London.

Keith Iddon ● 4448d

Don't pretend to quote me as spouting  your own prejudices and views Tony. You seem to have a slightly antediluvian attitude to Lancashire. Any of that 'soft southerner' stuff is tongue in cheek now and a laugh..like Lancs.being called 'norvern munkeys' in Lock Stock...The thing I can never understand is how people are so happy when the EU grants us money for something or other..that'll be them giving us back some of the money we have already given them...

Keith Iddon ● 4448d

"Today's the day to continue the discussion on Scottish Independence."  OK then let's discuss...  I may be that I'm mixing in the wrong circles up here...But I can't find too much enthusiasm for "Scottish Independence" amongst the local populace,I do however detect much more support from south of the border,the "Lets get rid of the scrounging Scotts" brigade,don't you just hate lines on maps?   Scotland has it's own problems,mostly that of the Catholic/Protestant divide,it exists and isn't getting any better.   This attitude isn't unique,in Lancashire and Yorkshire and anywhere north of Luton Londoners are referred to as being "soft southerners" isn't that right Keith? They convienently ignore the fact that you have to pay half a £million for a small three bed semi and have to pay stupid money to get to work and when there, work ever increasing hours to achieve that aim.  Ironically most support for independence seems to come from the mathematically smaller Catholic minority,ironic because both Salmond and Sturgeon are Protestants.  Jim said ..."I understand there's quite a grant culture in many parts of Scotland so they'll want to keep in with their European benefactors."  That's complete "Vanessas",what actually happens is that because there is more farming up here than down there then...yes there are more grants allocated to Scotland per capita,but that's the case across the EU,you wouldn't like the cost of food if those subsidies didn't exist.Lines on maps,that's the problem.       

Tony Wood ● 4448d

Today's the day to continue the discussion on Scottish Independence.I understand there's quite a grant culture in many parts of Scotland so they'll want to keep in with their European benefactors.

Jim Lawes ● 4448d

Well that's a point of view, and I must say if I was a Scot I could see the appeal, though Salmond could not as far as I can see be any slipperier if he dropped his D and his number 2 is a Sturgeon.I was just making the point about EU entry maybe not being as simple as it seems (or as the slippery ones suggest)

Guy Lambert ● 4448d

It's all very simple to me.  The UK establishment is institutionally corrupt so disengage from it if you can.  The new Scottish establishment will probably be institutionally corrupt as well but as it's a smaller unit the people will stand a better chance of holding it to account.

Phil Andrews ● 4448d

I think the issue is a bit more complicated than it appears:- UK has various concessions EG the rebate. EU don't like the rebate and the rebate is for UK (mainly England) special circumstances of not much agriculture. Scottish agriculture relatively much bigger- Politicking by Spain (in particular) who have Catalonia trying to secede which would be a catastrophe for the rest of Spain economically- The Euro: UK has a special concession. New countries must commit to the Euro. If Scotland keeps the pound can't comply with that- Scotland has to become a new country because entitled to ministers/commissioner etc. You can't simply pretend that UK remains one country for EU purposes. Therefore must apply for entry and all 28 members must agree, plus treaties have to change which might trigger trouble in various countries (EG the RUK!)

Guy Lambert ● 4448d

Which is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Great Britain comprising England, Scotland and Wales.  So the country which is currently a member of the EU will itself have changed and will certainly need to renegotiate certain of its terms of membership, not least the number of MEPs that it elects.Scottish MEPs are already in situ so I would expect them to remain so by default once independence has been achieved.

Phil Andrews ● 4448d

It is the UK which is currently in Europe and they will no longer be in the UK.I don't know whether they will have to re-negotiate or not, but their relationship to the rest of the UK and surely Europe will therefore have changed.They would surely have to negotiate their own grants, loans and subsidies as the rest of the UK would surely have theirs altered too as a result of any change in the make up of the UK.

Keith Iddon ● 4448d

I can't understand why they would have to negotiate their way into Europe when they are already in Europe.  Unless that is UK membership of the EU is really English membership, in which case the Scots surely must have a point about not being taken seriously as an equal partner within the UK?

Phil Andrews ● 4448d

Surely they would have to negotiate their own way into Europe and will be forced to join the Eurozone? Our relationship with Europe too would have to change,particularly regarding budget contributions I would have thought. They seem to want to cherry pick the BBC,the Queen and the pound, amongst other things no doubt, from us and still want to be 'independent'.

Keith Iddon ● 4448d

I agree with you Anthony. Seems to me Mr. Salmond's White Paper wants the best of all worlds, nice work if you can get it. What doesn't make sense to me is that they want out of the U.K. but want to stay in Europe, which seems to me to indicate that there is an understanding that it's very difficult to go it alone when you are a small country. Personally I think Salmond is out to make a name for himself and boost his ego, but everyone I've seen interviewed asks about the economics of the separation.

Vanessa Smith ● 4448d

Nirj Deva used to be the local MP here despite owning half of Sri Lanka. But he may have been a UK citizen.It's an interesting question and I would have thought they ought to apply for RUK citizenship, though I hope we would apply such rules sensibly. Can't off hand think of any examples.

Guy Lambert ● 4448d

Scots MPs voted for some of the impositions in England and Wales that are exempt in Scotland already.No way should any Scots MPs sit in the House of Commons or Lords if they represent Scottish constituencies.Scots MPs holding seats in England and Wales should have to swear and extra oath for their allegience to the country and district they represent just like any other who was not born here.And they should have to make a declaration showing they have not interests within Scotland or it's own politics.But we are an Island, not a very big one at that and this whole idea is bonkers really.  Regional government is enough and no-one can say the scots have no identity, it's as strong as it always was.

Anthony Waller ● 4448d