Forum Topic

Scargill was right!

Well, who'd have thought it? Thatcher lied - shock horror!

Vanessa Smith ● 4528d18 Comments

After all, she was terribly matey with Gorbachev, and look what she did for mother Russia

Guy Lambert ● 4526d

"The Union had a stranglehold...enhanced by funds and support from Russia..and perhaps support from dodgy Unionists of the day like Jack Jones and others."  And if you Jim studied current affairs a bit closer,you may be surprised (perhaps pleased) to find that we now import 78% of the coal used in our power stations.  Our biggest supplier? Why Russia of course @ 56%,that's a nice secure source then.

Tony Wood ● 4526d

I wouldn't try to justify the poor treatment of the miners either by the govn. or by Scargill Vanessa.

Keith Iddon ● 4527d

Keith - you are fully entitled to your opinion as you are well aware, I wouldn't have expected anything different from Mr. Lawes - same old, same old. I make no secret of my political leanings. although I'd like to put a bomb under quite a few of our representatives in Westminster - of all varieties - I wouldn't defend Scargill - he was giving Thatcher just the excuse she wanted - but that cannot ever justify the treatment of the miners and the appalling legacy of privatisation. All that's done is left us to pay the bills while the industries, many of them essential to us all, cream off the profit and get them out of the country to avoid paying their tax dues too.

Vanessa Smith ● 4527d

What's the secret Jim? If I had written wot you rote I would have been taken to Sketchley's by Vanessa. Is there something the rst of us don't know? ;-0

Keith Iddon ● 4527d

Blimey Jim you've gone to town here haven't you.Of course the fact that Thatcher and McGregor were telling bare faced lies and Scargill the truth only adds to Scargill's dodginess and proves how right Mrs T was. Obviously telling bare-faced lies represents excellent industrial relations and is at the root of what has made this country great.Excellent examples you have chosen, especially the Zeebrugge ferry dsaster which happened to the HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE - not only private sector but even carrying  a name which was propaganda in itself!I believe West Midd has a good A&E department - very accomplished at dealing with shot feet :p

Guy Lambert ● 4527d

Everyone know Scargill was right.  But it was the market and cost of extracting coal as the world market for coal changed circunstances. It was just that the government of the day had to address the problems and did it rather badly. But it was really caused by external market and economic forces and the Government and opposition did not really understand what was happening fully enough to do anything. For British industry to compete, then as now energy costs are paramount for any sort of chance to compete in the world markets.Scargill's inexplicably stupid mistake was to not hold a ballot. Initially he would have easily got his mandate. He would have spared his members the trouble, division and strive that has left deep social wounds in parts of this country.I was living up there as a student at the time and it was awful and the legacy of what it did to those communities is even more awful.I still wonder if he was more a Tory than Thatcher as all he managed was to consolidate the Tories dogmatic grip on what were dreadful policies of the time, that until his stance, were even questioned by a great many tory politiciansHe played straight into Thatchers hands when in fact he could have had the reverse.It may not have saved the mining industry but it would have forced more effort into  focusing more resources into the transition of mining communities  which was too little too late.

Anthony Waller ● 4527d

If you studied actual working practices in the coal mining industry in the 1960s and onwards..when the National Coal Board was the largest employer in the UK ...you will have learned of the masses of inefficiencies..and wastes which any Government needed to endeavour to correct.To change practices was a challenge indeed.I once worked with a NCB Industrial Relations chief and the stories from him about all Industries were endless. I used to write research articles on Productivity Pay Agreements in various employment sectors for Incomes Data Services.The NCB pay structures, I recall, meant that those slogging it out on the coal face couldn't benefit from substantial extra pay because everyone else (including those in the works canteen) wanted to same rises too. There were rackets galore with large quantities of coal being removed from the Pits without documentation and account.The Union had a stranglehold...enhanced by funds and support from Russia..and perhaps support from dodgy Unionists of the day like Jack Jones and others.Of course Business needs to review matters all the time and have a forward plan. If that meant the Government drawing up lists of uneconomic pits..so be it. Why couldn't the information be kept under cover?. Why does the plan have to devulged to inquisitors?The antics of Scargill behind the scenes is a disgrace. And now we are aware of his own personal dodgy practices. What the hell has his like got to do with getting work done! People like him caused the economy to falter and encouraged "production" to go overseas. Shipbuilding practices in Liverpool and Glasgow are another case. They now grumble about not having work .. but what did many of them do when they had it?  Left home...clocked in...climbed over a wall, and then went home again! What happens in the South Wales Valleys where many are on benefit.  The local bus Company needs 30 drivers and have to recruit a contingent from Estonia ..with their families ...to fill the vancancies!!Mrs Thatcher was just what was wanted. She dispensed the medicine but sadly it only got to 75% of the problems. The Post Office, and variously Nationalised Industrires got away from treatment. Only when incidents like the Kings Cross fire tragedy happened (dodgy work practices), and The Zeebruger ferry disaster (dodgy work practices)..and others did necessary changes take place.No credits for Scargill please...or are your exaltations Vanessa in indication of your true colours!

Jim Lawes ● 4528d

I largely agree Vanessa but I think he played into her hands by being obstinate and ultimately unrealistic about how strong his hand was. And the poor sods in the middle were the ones who suffered the most as a result. Btw I think it was 290 pits closed under Wilson and 160 under Thatcher. Fair enough, if he hadn't closed all those I'm sure she would have done instead.

Keith Iddon ● 4528d

The times I've heard the old tale about how many pits were closed under the Wilson government - that well maybe the case, but it could never justify the appalling treatment of the miners, why didn't Thatcher let mining wither on the vine then? Why was it felt necessary to cause all that damage and strife? This was a cover to try and finish off the TUs, never mind the poor sods who got in the way - unforgiveable.

Vanessa Smith ● 4528d

Yes perhaps Vanessa but his job was to try to secure some kind of future for as many of his members, not to antagonise and attempt to bring down an elected government and hasten the end for the mining industry. You have to realise that the mining industry had been dying a long slow death for years and that more miners lost their jobs through wastage and pit closures under Wilson than under Thatcher. The last hurrah for mining in this country was 1939-45.It was a losing cause and to strike in the summer? The man was at best naïve and at worst a fool.

Keith Iddon ● 4528d

I was never the biggest fan of Scargill, I think not holding a strike ballot played straight into Thatcher's hands and was instrumental in damaging beyond imagination the Trades Union movement in this country. But you cannot deny that those men and women and the communities they came from were fighting for their jobs and their lives and their cause was just, the enemy was the most right wing bunch of ideologues ever to govern this country until this current bunch of rich boys. The police of course were bought and paid for to do the dirty work, talk about the boot being on the other foot now - not so funny when they come for you is it?

Vanessa Smith ● 4528d

I think he feathered his own nest thankyou very much and did very well, strike or no strike. He didn't lose his job, he didn't suffer. He was very good at being reckless with other families' livelyhoods whilst he was cossetted. 'I'm all right jack, pull the ladder up'.

Keith Iddon ● 4528d

Agree 100%.

Vanessa Smith ● 4528d

I don't think either of them came out covered in glory but the miners were at the end of the day fighting to defend their livelihoods.  Scargill was an appalling strategist who was completely outwitted by Thatcher and her advisors, and may also as you say have suffered delusions of personal grandeur, but it would be harsh in the light of what we know now to suggest that the thrust of his cause was wrong.

Phil Andrews ● 4528d

I wonder what all those skint miners think of Scargill and his grace and favour flat, his chauffeur driven car and his massive pension? And they have him to thank for the 'white finger' debacle that happened on his watch. I would rather a liar than a disingenuous and self serving scoundrel.

Keith Iddon ● 4528d

What, a politician telling lies?  Who'd have thought it?

Phil Andrews ● 4528d

Personally I doubt there has ever been a single Prime Minister who has not lied over the years Vanessa and in recent years Tony Blair must have been one of the worse

Paul Fisher ● 4528d